Sony VPL-VW285ES and VW385ES 4K HDR Projectors at CEDIA 2017 - Page 15 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #421 of 653 Old 09-24-2017, 08:09 PM
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Originally Posted by Stereodude View Post
I think it's a big jump to assume that "all new" equals improved. It could be a cheaper design that's just as good as the old one. It's anyone's guess. If it was better they would have like been sing those praises, not downplaying them. FWIW, Arrow-AV didn't think too much of the lens on the 760 he saw in Belgium.
I think you are reading too much into Arrow-AV's review. He basically loved the 760 but was disappointed that they didn't use the 1100 arc lens which is an outstanding lens. That doesn't mean he thought the lens they used was worse than the existing 675 lens. Nowhere does he say that the lens wasn't a good lens.

Also like I said, Sony was emphasizing the lens feature as an upgrade at CEDIA. They specifically told Scott Wilkinson that it was an improved lens system with better focus and better stability. They said that the lens would not be available as a separate purchase to existing owners. So they must think it is better or else why even mention that it couldn't be purchased separately.
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post #422 of 653 Old 09-25-2017, 02:28 AM
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I would say I will sell my 500ES soon and buy the new 360ES (in Australia) when it arrives in a few weeks.

The 760ES Laser model will be no good for me with the limited hours unfortunately.

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post #423 of 653 Old 09-25-2017, 02:40 AM
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I would say I will sell my 500ES soon and buy the new 360ES (in Australia) when it arrives in a few weeks.

The 760ES Laser model will be no good for me with the limited hours unfortunately.

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post #424 of 653 Old 09-25-2017, 07:10 AM
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Originally Posted by GregCh View Post
I think you are reading too much into Arrow-AV's review. He basically loved the 760 but was disappointed that they didn't use the 1100 arc lens which is an outstanding lens. That doesn't mean he thought the lens they used was worse than the existing 675 lens. Nowhere does he say that the lens wasn't a good lens.

Also like I said, Sony was emphasizing the lens feature as an upgrade at CEDIA. They specifically told Scott Wilkinson that it was an improved lens system with better focus and better stability. They said that the lens would not be available as a separate purchase to existing owners. So they must think it is better or else why even mention that it couldn't be purchased separately.
Guess it depends on who you talk to. I talked to two of the head guys from Sony and asked specifically about the lens and what kind of improvements were made. To say that they downplayed or talked around the question would be an understatement. I was told stability was a bit better, and as I mentioned before most of their comments made it sound like the improvements were more in the control of the lens than the lens itself (motor functions).

I also asked why the 885 at the price point of the 1000ES didn't get the better Arc lens. They said it was a cost consideration.
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post #425 of 653 Old 09-25-2017, 07:16 AM
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Originally Posted by Kris Deering View Post
Guess it depends on who you talk to. I talked to two of the head guys from Sony and asked specifically about the lens and what kind of improvements were made. To say that they downplayed or talked around the question would be an understatement. I was told stability was a bit better, and as I mentioned before most of their comments made it sound like the improvements were more in the control of the lens than the lens itself (motor functions).

I also asked why the 885 at the price point of the 1000ES didn't get the better Arc lens. They said it was a cost consideration.
I'm not sure what's worse, the 885 costing 10,000 dollars more in the US, or the fact that it has the same lense as their 5,000 dollar projector.
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post #426 of 653 Old 09-25-2017, 07:19 AM
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This conversation is making me question the decision to get the 285/385.

We need more affordable True 4K projectors!! JVC needs to make one.
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post #427 of 653 Old 09-25-2017, 07:37 AM
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Originally Posted by zax123 View Post
This conversation is making me question the decision to get the 285/385.

We need more affordable True 4K projectors!! JVC needs to make one.
I don't think JVC would be any better in this price range, the Lens in the cheaper Sony line can fine resolve the 4K resolution, maybe not as sharp in the corners, the issue is more the quality control of the lenses, which should be better now, according Sony.

Is the cheaper lens then as good as the big Sonys 1100/5000 models of course not, the better all glass lens is more clear, you have the look of looking more though a window effect on these models.
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post #428 of 653 Old 09-25-2017, 08:35 AM
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...Nowhere does he say that the lens wasn't a good lens...
He doesn't use those words, but he pointed out that it basically couldn't achieve focus across the entire image. You don't think that's unacceptable for a $25k projector?
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post #429 of 653 Old 09-25-2017, 08:37 AM
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...the Lens in the cheaper Sony line can fine resolve the 4K resolution, maybe not as sharp in the corners...
According to whom? Where are those test results?
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post #430 of 653 Old 09-25-2017, 08:58 AM
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Originally Posted by Stereodude View Post
According to whom? Where are those test results?
According me!
https://www.avsforum.com/forum/24-dig...l#post54812008
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post #431 of 653 Old 09-25-2017, 09:07 AM
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Originally Posted by GregCh View Post
I think you are reading too much into Arrow-AV's review. He basically loved the 760 but was disappointed that they didn't use the 1100 arc lens which is an outstanding lens. That doesn't mean he thought the lens they used was worse than the existing 675 lens. Nowhere does he say that the lens wasn't a good lens.

Also like I said, Sony was emphasizing the lens feature as an upgrade at CEDIA. They specifically told Scott Wilkinson that it was an improved lens system with better focus and better stability. They said that the lens would not be available as a separate purchase to existing owners. So they must think it is better or else why even mention that it couldn't be purchased separately.
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Guess it depends on who you talk to. I talked to two of the head guys from Sony and asked specifically about the lens and what kind of improvements were made. To say that they downplayed or talked around the question would be an understatement. I was told stability was a bit better, and as I mentioned before most of their comments made it sound like the improvements were more in the control of the lens than the lens itself (motor functions).

I also asked why the 885 at the price point of the 1000ES didn't get the better Arc lens. They said it was a cost consideration.
Just to clarify, in case not already clear... Yes, we're disappointed the Sony 885/760ES does not use the 1100ES lens and instead uses the one from the 675/550ES; however, it still looks to be a great projector nonetheless. There was very noticeable uniformity issues regarding the particular Sony 885/760ES unit being demoed, and specifically this was with respect to both luminance and focus. I have been informed that this was/is a pre-production unit with beta firmware and that said uniformity issues will not be present with the actual production units with launch firmware. When we carry out our evaluation exercise the process will confirm whether or not this is the case; as will other reviews and feedback from consumers/owners. Until there exists other third party confirmation we will of course endeavour to confirm what is the situation here as soon as possible.

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post #432 of 653 Old 09-25-2017, 09:13 AM
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But the pictures you posted aren't from any of the new models are they?
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post #433 of 653 Old 09-25-2017, 09:16 AM
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I have been informed that this was/is a pre-production unit with beta firmware and that said uniformity issues will not be present with the actual production units with launch firmware.
I don't buy these sorts of stories. Firmware changes, sure. But the idea they they didn't handpick the components or projector to give the best possible image on the hardware side seems unbelievable. Generally, I would expect shipping models to not be as good as the golden sample prototype.
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post #434 of 653 Old 09-25-2017, 09:23 AM
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But the pictures you posted aren't from any of the new models are they?
No it's from the VW520/665, I'm sure it is the same on the new ones at least it's the same on the 675 according other users, which has tried the tweak.

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post #435 of 653 Old 09-25-2017, 09:32 AM
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I don't buy these sorts of stories. Firmware changes, sure. But the idea they they didn't handpick the components or projector to give the best possible image on the hardware side seems unbelievable. Generally, I would expect shipping models to not be as good as the golden sample prototype.
True, but you also need to bear in mind that it is not uncommon for such demo units to be in terrible shape and suffering from transit trauma by this point in time, which could in itself certainly account for uniformity issues. Where in either case this would mean that this is not respresentative of the performance of the actual production units. Either way, it won't be long now before we know for sure!

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post #436 of 653 Old 09-25-2017, 10:53 AM
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Firmware won?t do anything for lens issues like focu and uniformity. Firmware fixes issues with processing and such.

Look, whether this ends up an issue is probably going to be sample variant. All brands are like this. Even JVC, who uses fantastic lenses, isn?t immune to bad outliers even with their ?hand picked? units.

I have more issue with Song using the same lens in the 885 as the rest more of an issue than the actual lens quality. At this price point I find it a huge oversight given the quality I?ve seen from their brand at lower price points before. But I don?t think it is a big deal with the other models. Their processing at the panels and need for RC to get a crisp 4K image has bothered me more with their 4K units in the past than the lens quality.

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post #437 of 653 Old 09-25-2017, 02:52 PM
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Originally Posted by ARROW-AV View Post
Just to clarify, in case not already clear... Yes, we're disappointed the Sony 885/760ES does not use the 1100ES lens and instead uses the one from the 675/550ES; however, it still looks to be a great projector nonetheless.
We will have to see what the owner think here in a little while
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post #438 of 653 Old 09-25-2017, 04:28 PM
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We will have to see what the owner think here in a little while
I think a lot of people are going to be thrilled. Sure people always want more but I believe these will be awesome. The 385 is a blind buy for me. I’ve been waiting too dang long for 4k. Sony seems to have checked off enough boxes.
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post #439 of 653 Old 09-25-2017, 06:06 PM
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Does anyone know if the lens memory on the 385 is automatic? What I mean is, does it auto-detect the aspect ratio of the incoming signal and move to that lens memory position, or do you have to press a button every time?

My old Panasonic AE-4000 used to do it automatically and it worked remarkably well.
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post #440 of 653 Old 09-25-2017, 06:21 PM
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Does anyone know if the lens memory on the 385 is automatic? What I mean is, does it auto-detect the aspect ratio of the incoming signal and move to that lens memory position, or do you have to press a button every time?

My old Panasonic AE-4000 used to do it automatically and it worked remarkably well.
You need to press a button. What did your AE - 4000 do with movies that change aspect ratios mid movie - change back and forth ?

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You need to press a button. What did your AE - 4000 do with movies that change aspect ratios mid movie - change back and forth ?
Yup it would change back and forth. But you could turn off auto mode temporarily for that movie and then turn it back on. Not a lot of movies do that so it wasn't a big deal.

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post #442 of 653 Old 09-25-2017, 06:27 PM
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True, but you also need to bear in mind that it is not uncommon for such demo units to be in terrible shape and suffering from transit trauma by this point in time, which could in itself certainly account for uniformity issues. Where in either case this would mean that this is not respresentative of the performance of the actual production units. Either way, it won't be long now before we know for sure!

We had a VW600 that, after being shipped once, was treated so rough, there were cracks in the case, including a split below the lens in front, and broken vents in the back. Box looked fine - styrofoam was perfect. It did still work fine though. But, one can only imagine it being shipped around Europe or the USA a dozen more times.
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We had a VW600 that, after being shipped once, was treated so rough, there were cracks in the case, including a split below the lens in front, and broken vents in the back. Box looked fine - styrofoam was perfect. It did still work fine though. But, one can only imagine it being shipped around Europe or the USA a dozen more times.
Probably got thrown under a bus by a Martin or a dog...
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post #444 of 653 Old 09-25-2017, 07:09 PM
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Probably got thrown under a bus by a Martin or a dog...
I see what you did there

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Probably got thrown under a bus by a Martin or a dog...
Or maybe by their followers, who knows.
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Or maybe by their followers, who knows.
If I had a nickel from each one of my followers I might have a single nickel...
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post #447 of 653 Old 09-25-2017, 10:39 PM
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Originally Posted by WIKED View Post
I would say I will sell my 500ES soon and buy the new 360ES (in Australia) when it arrives in a few weeks.

The 760ES Laser model will be no good for me with the limited hours unfortunately.

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Limited hours? You mean no-one has really gotten to the device properly, limited time people have spent on it?

I'm in Australia also, building my movie room now, and am keen to see how the 360ES stands up as well. The vibe on forums seems to favour the JVC e-shifted devices over the sony, I think partially over the lenses.
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post #448 of 653 Old 09-26-2017, 06:33 PM
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How do you know this? These projectors inherently have an issue no matter what combination of settings you're using. Even before you get a chance to toggle such features on and off there's already a loss of resolution. This is a hardware limitation, not a software one found in the menu or can be fixed completely via firmware update. The fact remains that if test patterns are not resolved properly, which are typically far less complicated (bandwidth) to display on screen, then you can be sure it will have similar results with real world content too. I've gone into the service menu's to disable convergence correction software and it does not get rid of the issues I've discussed. I've tried just about everything I can on several 4K SXRD projectors to get rid of these issues fully and no combination of settings work toi rid these projectors of these issues. I will leave this here as evidence:



It's clear to me, as I've seen it first hand, 4K SXRD has issues displaying real world content faithfully to the source.
That screenshot comparison is hardly a valid comparison at all - please stop misleading people. You are comparing a 4.7MB file to a 680KB file, of same resolution JPG image. JPEG compression of the Sony screenshot is probably responsible for most of the difference in the screenshots, rather than the performance difference of the projectors.
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post #449 of 653 Old 09-26-2017, 07:46 PM
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That screenshot comparison is hardly a valid comparison at all - please stop misleading people. You are comparing a 4.7MB file to a 680KB file, of same resolution JPG image. JPEG compression of the Sony screenshot is probably responsible for most of the difference in the screenshots, rather than the performance difference of the projectors.
You are responding to a forum member that has been permanently banned. He won't be responding.

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post #450 of 653 Old 09-26-2017, 08:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by siddharthasaha View Post
That screenshot comparison is hardly a valid comparison at all - please stop misleading people. You are comparing a 4.7MB file to a 680KB file, of same resolution JPG image. JPEG compression of the Sony screenshot is probably responsible for most of the difference in the screenshots, rather than the performance difference of the projectors.
Just to set the record straight, I am the original photographer of those images. Those images are exactly indicitive of the performance between the units on the day. There is barely any JPEG compression visible there.

To further explain though, Seegs drew some red boxes on the original Sony pic to highlight the banding issues and when he saved the file it reduced the size on his machine.

My files are larger, much larger. Here are the full size 4k versions. As you can see the banding is still very present. Those files are 2.6MB each.

http://screenshotcomparison.com/comparison/116883

And here are the 13MB TIFF files if you wish to look at them in the original 5.7k capture resolution. Directly converted lossless from the RAW files.

Sony

https://www.dropbox.com/s/qla04k64ic..._1792.tif?dl=0

JVC

https://www.dropbox.com/s/7xtfykrp30..._1793.tif?dl=0

Nobody is being misled here. Was simply a compression mistake when Seegs edited the files.

Feel free to download the entire shootout if you wish (ever 2nd image in the set of images is the JVC, the Sony is always the 1st image):

https://www.dropbox.com/sh/jwp704m5c...9nGkTTPYa?dl=0
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