Sony VPL-VW385ES Owners Thread - Page 2 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #31 of 3660 Old 09-13-2017, 08:52 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by GregCh View Post
I am not sure how representative these shot are yet?

First he is not square to the wall so there is a lot of keystone error. Second the wall is textured with different patterns and that will scatter single pixel test patterns as well as cause focusing issues. Third, he looks like he might need to do some panel alignment and focus tweaks. Fourth, we don't know the settings yet and this may well have processing like RC which might distort since pixel pattern tests.

Let's get a real image, properly aligned, and focused on a true screen with all image processing off before jumping to conclusions about all Sony 4K projectors.

Thanks Juan for doing this. I will be excited to see what your properly setup up projection looks like.
Screen comes Friday so should have something better by next week. Hopefully that will be enough time for those still on the fence.
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post #32 of 3660 Old 09-13-2017, 09:02 AM
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Originally Posted by Seegs108 View Post
According to Kris Deering, the RS4500 has no problems with these test patterns, but I can ask again to be sure it doesn't add moire. The photo I posted above shows that it seemingly is be able rendering them without an issue and that 1:1 pixel mapping is possible. If I remember correctly some people were using a Lumagen to feed their projector it was causing issues with rendering these test patterns. Maybe that's where the moire issues came from on the Z1 you read about? I didn't have this specific test pattern suite when I had the 1100ES here, but I did see similar pink/green banding in other test patterns on the 1100ES as well:
Is these pictures from your VW1100?
My VW1000 has never looked like this, I have a picture of my VW1000 flooding around in this forum on 1:1 pixel pattern, maybe you can find them.
I remember you have asked the Z1 and VW5000 owners to post some pictures of theirs Z1/5000 but no one dare to do it, why
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post #33 of 3660 Old 09-13-2017, 09:02 AM
 
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Originally Posted by GregCh View Post
I am not sure how representative these shot are yet?

First he is not square to the wall so there is a lot of keystone error. Second the wall is textured with different patterns and that will scatter single pixel test patterns as well as cause focusing issues. Third, he looks like he might need to do some panel alignment and focus tweaks. Fourth, we don't know the settings yet and this may well have processing like RC which might distort since pixel pattern tests.

Let's get a real image, properly aligned, and focused on a true screen with all image processing off before jumping to conclusions about all Sony 4K projectors.

Thanks Juan for doing this. I will be excited to see what your properly setup up projection looks like.
The moire and color banding you're seeing in those photos is not going to be gone when placed on a proper screen. These artifacts have been seen before on other 3xx/6xx models from Sony. To help get rid of the tearing issue, you have to go into the service menu and disable the factory set zone panel convergence correction. Most people are not going to go in to the service menu to do this. Things are not clearly labeled and there are a lot of settings you can accidentally change and really mess your projector up if set incorrectly or wrong. Most of the artifacts you see in those photos are "normal" for these projectors unfortunately. I would still like to see a close up of the checkerboard pattern and to see how cleanly it does single pixel on and off lines. This is a real test of lens quality but also to see if Sony has remedied how it drives the SXRD panels because previous models had issues with this. The photos posted thus far lead me to believe the performance in these areas has not changed, but I will wait to see some other photos before I make a final judgement.
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post #34 of 3660 Old 09-13-2017, 09:06 AM
 
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Originally Posted by mirodk View Post
Is these pictures from your VW1100?
My VW1000 has never looked like this, I have a picture of my VW1000 flooding around in this forum on 1:1 pixel pattern, maybe you can find them.
I remember you have asked the Z1 and VW5000 owners to post some pictures of theirs Z1/5000 but no one dare to do it, why
Yes, two of those images were from my VW1100ES. I had it sent in to Sony twice. The video processing board and entire optical engine was changed out as well and it still did not fix the issues shown. When I asked Sony about the issues, they told me that this is "normal" performance. As you've pointed out before, you can turn off the zone convergence correction software in the service menu to help alleviate these problems a bit, but they were not fully fixed when disabling that in the service menu.

I might ask again for someone to take pictures of this test pattern for me in the 5000ES owners thread. No one took me up on my offer last time. As you say, I wonder why? I can only guess.
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post #35 of 3660 Old 09-13-2017, 09:07 AM
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Originally Posted by Seegs108 View Post
The moire and color banding you're seeing in those photos is not going to be gone when placed on a proper screen. These artifacts have been seen before on other 3xx/6xx models from Sony. To help get rid of the tearing issue, you have to go into the service menu and disable the factory set zone panel convergence correction. Most people are not going to go in to the service menu to do this. Things are not clearly labeled and there are a lot of settings you can accidentally change and really mess your projector up if set incorrectly or wrong. Most of the artifacts you see in those photos are "normal" for these projectors unfortunately. I would still like to see a close up of the checkerboard pattern and to see how cleanly it does single pixel on and off lines. This is a real test of lens quality but also to see if Sony has remedied how it drives the SXRD panels because previous models had issues with this. The photos posted thus far lead me to believe the performance in these areas has not changed, but I will wait to see some other photos before I make a final judgement.
You will also get moire and color banding when projecting single pixel patterns onto a textured ribbed surface. Larger objects aren't as effected but finer details are. Same as if you were projecting onto a diffraction gradient. I have no doubt that your observations are accurate compared to past history but lets just see what happens when he gets everything aligned, focused, and projected onto a smooth screen.

I don't doubt that there will be some issues in the final result but lets see a properly setup projector first.
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post #36 of 3660 Old 09-13-2017, 09:12 AM
 
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Originally Posted by GregCh View Post
You will also get moire and color banding when projecting single pixel patterns onto a textured ribbed surface. Larger objects aren't as effected but finer details are. Same as if you were projecting onto a diffraction gradient. I have no doubt that your observations are accurate compared to past history but lets just see what happens when he gets everything aligned, focused, and projected onto a smooth screen.

I don't doubt that there will be some issues in the final result but lets see a properly setup projector first.
I agree, I would like to see it on a proper screen too.
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post #37 of 3660 Old 09-13-2017, 09:13 AM
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Originally Posted by Seegs108 View Post
Yes, two of those images were from my VW1100ES. I had it sent in to Sony twice. The video processing board and entire optical engine was changed out as well and it still did not fix the issues shown. When I asked Sony about the issues, they told me that this is "normal" performance. As you've pointed out before, you can turn off the zone convergence correction software in the service menu to help alleviate these problems a bit, but they were not fully fixed when disabling that in the service menu.

I might ask again for someone to take pictures of this test pattern for me in the 5000ES owners thread. No one took me up on my offer last time. As you say, I wonder why? I can only guess.
There most be some differences from the VW1000 vs. 1100 because my VW1000 doesn't have the zone corrections in the service menu, like all the predecessors, I don't know about the VW5000.

Yes please ask again the Z1 and VW5000 owners, I know you can take the beating

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post #38 of 3660 Old 09-13-2017, 10:21 AM
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Originally Posted by mirodk View Post
There most be some differences from the VW1000 vs. 1100 because my VW1000 doesn't have the zone corrections in the service menu, like all the predecessors, I don't know about the VW5000.

Yes please ask again the Z1 and VW5000 owners, I know you can take the beating
The single line pattern shown in post 21 from this thread is from an RS4500.
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post #39 of 3660 Old 09-13-2017, 10:29 AM
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No idea what is going on in the photos but if that is suppose to be solid white.... i am scared

Hopefully we get some reviews and more hands on reports in detail soon.
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post #40 of 3660 Old 09-13-2017, 10:32 AM
 
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No idea what is going on in the photos but if that is suppose to be solid white.... i am scared

Hopefully we get some reviews and more hands on reports in detail soon.
I'm sure at some point Juan will be happy to show you a full field white pattern that will look nothing like that.
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post #41 of 3660 Old 09-13-2017, 10:33 AM
 
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No idea what is going on in the photos but if that is suppose to be solid white.... i am scared

Hopefully we get some reviews and more hands on reports in detail soon.
This has been a known issue on 3xx/6xx Sony 4K models for a couple years now. You can mitigate the tearing you're seeing somewhat by disabling something in the service menu. No reviewer will be posting pictures like that in their review. They never do. 90% of reviews these days are fluff pieces that never dig past the surface. There's only two or three reviewers who even give us proper contrast, brightness and color measurements. That's why this forum is great. We often dive deeper than the reviews.
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post #42 of 3660 Old 09-13-2017, 10:36 AM
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Is this issue actually visible during content?

So if you use the service menu option and have a unit which needs convergence adjusting you are screwed?
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post #43 of 3660 Old 09-13-2017, 10:39 AM - Thread Starter
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That was my understanding as well. The 385es is no worse off than last year's models with the exception of a better lens and a lower price point. I, like everyone else, hoped for some advancement in correcting these known problems. However, I was prepared to purchase last years 675es with know issues. For those who do not have a projector, this model will be a significant upgrade. For those with existing projectors, I understand the disappointment. I will work hard to get better data for you next week. But from where I stand, I am much better off than going with last year's model. My 2 cents.
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post #44 of 3660 Old 09-13-2017, 10:40 AM
 
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Is this issue actually visible during content?

So if you use the service menu option and have a unit which needs convergence adjusting you are screwed?
In my experience, yes, the banding caused by this artifact is visible with certain types of content. People have posted some photos of what this issue looks like with actual content. AMartin wants you to believe that I'm making this stuff up or that it is somehow a non-issue that should be ignored.
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post #45 of 3660 Old 09-13-2017, 10:43 AM
 
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That was my understanding as well. The 385es is no worse off than last year's models with the exception of a better lens and a lower price point. I, like everyone else, hoped for some advancement in correcting these known problems. However, I was prepared to purchase last years 675es with know issues. For those who do not have a projector, this model will be a significant upgrade. For those with existing projectors, I understand the disappointment. I will work hard to get better data for you next week. But from where I stand, I am much better off than going with last year's model. My 2 cents.
Exactly and as I said on page 1 of this thread, despite these odd quirks these projectors still throw a great image. JVC is the only other company out there with the raw performance to compete. It's just a shame that these issues still persist. They've been there since day one when the 1000ES was released in 2011, though I don't think quite as bad on the 1000ES.
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post #46 of 3660 Old 09-13-2017, 10:52 AM
 
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That was my understanding as well. The 385es is no worse off than last year's models with the exception of a better lens and a lower price point. I, like everyone else, hoped for some advancement in correcting these known problems. However, I was prepared to purchase last years 675es with know issues. For those who do not have a projector, this model will be a significant upgrade. For those with existing projectors, I understand the disappointment. I will work hard to get better data for you next week. But from where I stand, I am much better off than going with last year's model. My 2 cents.
You are most definitely better off.

As you mentioned you probably have a better lens.

It's likely your model incorporates more degradation counter measures than the 365es had.

Unlike the 365es Sony didn't skimp out on an iris and lens memory at this price point. You have more HDMI bandwidth at this MSRP despite still being less than ideal.

You definitely benefited from waiting and got nearly all of the important features of a 675es for a lot less!
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post #47 of 3660 Old 09-13-2017, 10:54 AM
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Is this issue actually visible during content?

So if you use the service menu option and have a unit which needs convergence adjusting you are screwed?
Not entirely, just don't use the zone correction, and only max 0,1 or 1 hole pixel shift and you are fine.
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post #48 of 3660 Old 09-13-2017, 10:56 AM - Thread Starter
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I will post a peak white pattern test tonight. It may help one way or the other
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post #49 of 3660 Old 09-13-2017, 10:57 AM
 
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In my experience, yes, the banding caused by this artifact is visible with certain types of content. People have posted some photos of what this issue looks like with actual content. AMartin wants you to believe that I'm making this stuff up or that it is somehow a non-issue that should be ignored.
Feel free to provide details on how specific 'certain kinds of content means'. One example I was given is here:

http://screenshotcomparison.com/comparison/117281

In the lower right the color of his jacket changes slightly. Oh the horror! And I know this guy's tailor so when watching the movie for the first time I totally caught the error!!!!!
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post #50 of 3660 Old 09-13-2017, 11:31 AM - Thread Starter
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It is always good to hear all opinions. That way we can always change our minds.?
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post #51 of 3660 Old 09-13-2017, 12:01 PM
 
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Ummmmm......Yes

So why is Juan told not to worry about it since it won't show up in real content? I mean which is it?
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post #52 of 3660 Old 09-13-2017, 12:03 PM
 
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So why is Juan told not to worry about it since it won't show up in real content? I mean which is it?
When did I say it wouldn't show up in real content?
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post #53 of 3660 Old 09-13-2017, 12:24 PM
 
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When did I say it wouldn't show up in real content?
My mistake. You said it could show up in 'certain types' of content. Care to elaborate?

My point is that I have seen many Sony 4k displays in the wild and none of them have this 'tie dyed' discoloration imposed on the image. You seem to suggest otherwise. If the results with this test pattern aggressively impact the image in any significant negative way when viewing actual content how would they sell a single unit? The answer is they do because it doesn't.
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post #54 of 3660 Old 09-13-2017, 12:44 PM
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That'd be great except there's no posterization in the images he's posted thus far.

I also want to point out to you, in case you don't understand what you're seeing in these photos, that this is supposed to be one solid color. All the color variations you see in there, the projector is adding to the image:



Yeah, so I don't know if posterization should be the first thing on your list that scares you away....
If that picture is for real I won't get the 285 or the 385 even for free. That would drive my OCD up to 100%. I can't imaging anybody watching a hockey game with that kind of issue.

It has to be a defective unit. There is no way that Sony can sell a projector that way...
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post #55 of 3660 Old 09-13-2017, 12:50 PM
 
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My mistake. You said it could show up in 'certain types' of content. Care to elaborate?

My point is that I have seen many Sony 4k displays in the wild and none of them have this 'tie dyed' discoloration imposed on the image. You seem to suggest otherwise. If the results with this test pattern aggressively impact the image in any significant negative way when viewing actual content how would they seoll a single unit? The answer is they do because it doesn't.
Again, and this goes back to what I said earlier, I don't think you understand how these artifacts occur and how some of them are created from the same inherent issue. The tearing occurs from the zone alignment software but the colored banding you see in his photos is from a limitation with the panel driver. The same reason there's banding and posterization in the photos we've shown you countless times is he same reason you're seeing the colored banding in the single pixel test pattern photographed and shown in this thread. So you ask me to tell you what kind of content shows this artifact off, it's content that has similar chroma information that's spread over an area of the image. Thing's such a blue skies and skin, which can have extremely subtle differences in color across the entire surface, are often where you see this issue creep into real content. The issue seems to stem from the SXRD panels not receiving per pixel information and the banding and posterization occurs when groups of pixels are fed and told to display the same color, instead of the fine gradations that's it should be displaying from the source material. I've posted numerous images (as has Javs) of faces and backgrounds to show this off. It's really interesting to see that you've forgotten about these images posted or is it that you aren't fully understanding the problem?

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post #56 of 3660 Old 09-13-2017, 12:57 PM
 
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Again, and this goes back to what I said earlier, I don't think you understand how these artifacts occur and how some of them are created from the same inherent issue. The tearing occurs from the zone alignment software but the colored banding you see in his photos is from a limitation with the panel driver. The same reason there's banding and posterization in the photos we've shown you countless times is he same reason you're seeing the colored banding in the single pixel test pattern photographed and shown in this thread. So you ask me to tell you what kind of content shows this artifact off, it's content that has similar chroma information that's spread over an area of the image. Thing's such a blue skies and skin, which can have extremely subtle differences in color across the entire surface, are often where you see this issue creep into real content. I've posted numerous images (as has Javs) of faces and backgrounds to show this off. It's really interesting to see that you've forgotten about these images posted or is it that you aren't fully understanding the problem?
So in your opinion the 'tie-dye pattern' shown in that test pattern will be as aggressively visible in an image of say sky. I'm sure that is something Juan can easily find an example of. I could certainly be proven wrong but my guess is that the pattern will not be clearly evident in the examples he provides.
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post #57 of 3660 Old 09-13-2017, 01:04 PM
 
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So in your opinion the 'tie-dye pattern' shown in that test pattern will be as aggressively visible in an image of say sky. I'm sure that is something Juan can easily find an example of. I could certainly be proven wrong but my guess is that the pattern will not be clearly evident in the examples he provides.
No that's not what I said at all. The issue is ever changing and is based solely on what is being fed to the projector at any given time. The tie dye pattern can also be lessened greatly if he goes into the service menu and disabled the zone based convergence correction software. But there is ALWAYS banding and/or posterization within the image to some degree. These artifacts are not always visible from a seated distance though and obviously those who can see it more easily than others will be based on seated distance and visual acuity. More often than not the banding is easier to see even though I've found when pixel peeping posterization is often more prominent in the image. The banding sticks out more because it often takes up more pixels on screen making it a larger artifact which is more easily visible from a seated diatance.

I don't remember if I've asked this before, but have you ever spent some personal time with any of the 4K SXRD units in your home before?

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post #58 of 3660 Old 09-13-2017, 01:08 PM
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Was reality Creation turned on, when showing the test patterns?
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post #59 of 3660 Old 09-13-2017, 01:18 PM - Thread Starter
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It was and now it is not. Not really too much of a difference. I wanted to test the full field white pattern but cannot find it on the newly purchased R. Masciola's UHD/HDR-10 Test Pattern Suite. Can anybody help?


Seegs108,


Is the banding or test patterns any worse than last seen on previous Sony machines in which case should I worry about a defect?

Juan
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post #60 of 3660 Old 09-13-2017, 01:24 PM
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It was and now it is not. Not really too much of a difference. I wanted to test the full field white pattern but cannot find it on the newly purchased R. Masciola's UHD/HDR-10 Test Pattern Suite. Can anybody help?


Seegs108,


Is the banding or test patterns any worse than last seen on previous Sony machines in which case should I worry about a defect?

Juan
I just wanted to say Juan, thanks for giving us information and all the extra you are doing. Thanks!

I would not get too crazy about test patterns and settings etc until you have your screen and you have everything set. Then you can see what is really going on.

Home Theater: JVC NX7, Stewart 120" 2:35 StudioTech 130, Panamorph DCR Lens, B&W 802 Nautilus, HTM1, 4-B&W 805's for surround, 4-Martin Logan 22's ceiling speakers ATMOS, 2- 18" Velodyn Subs, Marantz 8802A, MacIntosh 8207 AMP and Proceed AMP 5, Oppo 203, Panasonic 820, Apple TV, XBox One

Last edited by BondDonBond; 09-13-2017 at 01:32 PM.
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