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post #1411 of 3664 Old 10-16-2017, 06:48 PM
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Originally Posted by Javs View Post
CRT's used to do it all day long, and we all grew up with them, then came along LCD's and it was a grey mess but very bright, then came along Plasma TV's and it was awesome again, then came along LED LCD with dimming and unfortunately wiped out plasmas in the pursuit of sheer brightness, now OLED's bring back proper real black levels and its even better.

I don't think its marketing so much, even my wife comments on it, its a far cry from the real cinema experience with their 1000:1 DLP projectors. Its not the black screen that impresses me, its actually titles, intro scenes and super low APL scenes where I go WOW, that looks really good.

What is true, it you cant go wrong with either SXRD or LCOS at the end of the day. This is major 3rd world problem stuff here.

I was watching friggen Baywatch of all things last night and the damn intro to that film just looks lush! I had made a masking panel for when I watch in 2.35 mode and was just marvelling at the first 5 minutes of that film, it inter-cuts bright punchy morning sun scenes with very dark deep black and red titles, that were so black I could only see the red title floating there, its a simple thing I guess, but high contrast or even for the Sony with its DI, this looks fantastic. That sort of thing is the prime reason I pounced for a projector that had a DI a couple years back when I hit the wall with my 300ES, it had no iris, and that is what I felt after 1800 hours I was missing from the picture, and its why any of you guys who sprung for the 385 vs the 285 made the right move at the end of the day, don't underestimate the power of an iris!




First of all I am not a fan of Baywatch, never watched the original series . I bought this on a whim about 2 weeks ago because it was 4K and HDR, I like Wayne Johnson.
I actually found the movie funny, and the visuals were great, from many perspectives . Not my usual buy but good for a lighthearted laugh .

So interesting that I too watched this movie , have the same thoughts about how it looked in the first 5 minutes and I'm not sure when you refer to "how friggin lush" this was that your are referring to anything else butt what I was thinking . Anyway, my thoughts actually mirror yours, first about how good this movie looked in the beginning and throughout to be honest. What is funny is how you noticed the black screen at the beginning, I never gave it a second thought . It's just funny how you notice this because you are tuned into this , I didn't notice one way or another at all. I'll look again just to check butt, I may get distracted again . Waiting for the VW885 to verify the better black fade to see how I feel .


Second time watching with my wife was a joke, well for me anyway. My VW675 is gone, I perched an old Sanyo PLVZ4 on the mount and watched the movie again .
Brutal in every way imaginable, even the first five minutes . Wife even noticed how bad, I think, but wouldn't admit it considering the new projector on the way was highly and unnecessary as far as she was concerned. Another month of the PLVZ4 with 1700 hours on the lamp, she may fold . I cannot do it again, it's bad, really , really, bad.


Edit: I just noticed that is the same kite I have in that scene, the Core Riot. I missed that in the movie funny enough.

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post #1412 of 3664 Old 10-16-2017, 07:53 PM
 
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Watching the new Ghost in the Shell in UHD on my 385es. Previously I'd only watched the Blu-ray. Very sharp image and excellent motion even with Motionflow off but the dark scenes seem to have been mastered a bit too dark for me. Maxing out the Contrast Enhancer is a relatively effective quick fix but it's a shame that the darker scenes don't wow as much as those with mixed brightness (THEY look great). This may be another title I ultimately prefer watching in SDR.
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post #1413 of 3664 Old 10-16-2017, 08:09 PM
 
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I have the Sony UBP X800 player. I just tried turning off HDR in it and leaving the conversion slider at its midpoint default. The results are pretty good... especially if I disable the contrast enhancer to compensate for the conversion washing out the picture a bit. I was never able to find a good conversion position that looked right with my JVC. Not a workaround I'd choose to use often (would probably rather just watch the Blu-ray) but the slider seems to interact better with the Sony.
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post #1414 of 3664 Old 10-16-2017, 08:32 PM
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Originally Posted by AMartin56 View Post
I have the Sony UBP X800 player. I just tried turning off HDR in it and leaving the conversion slider at its midpoint default. The results are pretty good... especially if I disable the contrast enhancer to compensate for the conversion washing out the picture a bit. I was never able to find a good conversion position that looked right with my JVC. Not a workaround I'd choose to use often (would probably rather just watch the Blu-ray) but the slider seems to interact better with the Sony.
I owned the UBP X800 just long enough for me to compare the HDR to SDR conversion to the Panasonic UB900. The UB900 is superior and I promptly returned the Sony. I also currently own the Oppo 203 and the UB900 is superior to the Oppo for HDR to SDR conversion as well. It creates a much more natural, realistic image where the other units seemed to muddy things up and create an image that looked to have crushed blacks.

I also found the ability to control sharpness on the UB900 was much more graduated and the resulting image is incredible in my opinion (and that is in 1080P).

My JVC 4910 is professionally calibrated by Jeff Meier every year so it should be in good working order.
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post #1415 of 3664 Old 10-16-2017, 08:36 PM
 
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I owned the UBP X800 just long enough for me to compare the HDR to SDR conversion to the Panasonic UB900. The UB900 is superior and I promptly returned the Sony. I also currently own the Oppo 203 and the UB900 is superior to the Oppo for HDR to SDR conversion as well. It creates a much more natural, realistic image where the other units seemed to muddy things up and create an image that looked to have crushed blacks.

My JVC 4910 is professionally calibrated by Jeff Meier every year so it should be in good working order.
Interesting. I may have to check one out. I picked up the Sony as a port in a storm after having an Oppo that locked up constantly. I just can't justify the cost of the Panny. It doesn't seem to be budging at all price wise and I'll just watch my Blu-rays rather than purchase yet another player.
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post #1416 of 3664 Old 10-16-2017, 08:39 PM
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Originally Posted by AMartin56 View Post
Interesting. I may have to check one out. I picked up the Sony as a port in a storm after having an Oppo that locked up constantly. I just can't justify the cost of the Panny. It doesn't seem to be budging at all price wise and I'll just watch my Blu-rays rather than purchase yet another player.
The Panasonic is running around $150 off original retail price right now at most shops in the US.

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post #1417 of 3664 Old 10-16-2017, 08:40 PM
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The Panasonic is running around $150 off original retail price right now at most shops in the US.
Yup - back on sale !
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Originally Posted by AMartin56 View Post
Interesting. I may have to check one out. I picked up the Sony as a port in a storm after having an Oppo that locked up constantly. I just can't justify the cost of the Panny. It doesn't seem to be budging at all price wise and I'll just watch my Blu-rays rather than purchase yet another player.


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The Panasonic is running around $150 off original retail price right now at most shops in the US.


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Yup - back on sale !

http://www.bestbuy.com//site/panason...?skuId=5457202
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post #1419 of 3664 Old 10-17-2017, 03:13 AM
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I hope your love making is smooth and realistic!
It wasn't on VR if that is what you are inferring....
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post #1420 of 3664 Old 10-17-2017, 03:17 AM
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I owned the UBP X800 just long enough for me to compare the HDR to SDR conversion to the Panasonic UB900. The UB900 is superior and I promptly returned the Sony. I also currently own the Oppo 203 and the UB900 is superior to the Oppo for HDR to SDR conversion as well. It creates a much more natural, realistic image where the other units seemed to muddy things up and create an image that looked to have crushed blacks.

I also found the ability to control sharpness on the UB900 was much more graduated and the resulting image is incredible in my opinion (and that is in 1080P).

My JVC 4910 is professionally calibrated by Jeff Meier every year so it should be in good working order.
I too have both those players and the Panasonic is still an absolute belter! Especially considering it came out first, years ago.

The Oppo is truly excellent also, but more 'forensic' and not quite as natural and effortless somehow, if you know what I mean. Love 'em both. Top of the tree.

Cheers.
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post #1421 of 3664 Old 10-17-2017, 03:35 AM
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This is major 3rd world problem stuff here.

Lollers, I think you mean 1st world problems there dude!

The 3rd World has obviously much bigger fish to fry than fade to blacks or iffy processing on items that would take decades for most of them to even afford.

I am just both glad, and fortunate, as we all should be, to live in countries where one can afford such luxuries and be in a position to discuss them openly and fairly with like minded people without fear of persecution by some despot or from disease.
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post #1422 of 3664 Old 10-17-2017, 04:10 AM
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Originally Posted by AMartin56 View Post
Watching the new Ghost in the Shell in UHD on my 385es. Previously I'd only watched the Blu-ray. Very sharp image and excellent motion even with Motionflow off but the dark scenes seem to have been mastered a bit too dark for me. Maxing out the Contrast Enhancer is a relatively effective quick fix but it's a shame that the darker scenes don't wow as much as those with mixed brightness (THEY look great). This may be another title I ultimately prefer watching in SDR.
That is the problem with HDR right now, it's just not ready for main stream consumer consumption . Standards are not really set , movies are mastered at levels all over the place and projectors cannot compensate properly.

The Sony has a descent OFTB set up right now, the slider will get you a little further but not enough . JVC has external aftermarket tools to do custom gamma curves if you have the skills and inclination . Except for the very
few handful of enthusiasts here the majority of general public want plug and play not pug and pray features .
@Dave Harper had hapervision settings to make the best of this mess by eliminating the HDR gamma, using SDR and the intensities of HDR, the image did look somewhat better. My version on the VW675 worked very well indeed
but took a lot of patience to get there .

Too dim is the normal complaint , had it with the RS600 and the VW675 for most HDR . Second generation HDR was much better, still has a way to go . I suggest starting with Dave's settings see how that looks, adjust accordingly .


Best solution I have seen so far is the Lumagen Pro . The HDR tone and intensity mapping implementation is best I have seen, others have reported exactly the same . Not quite plug and play, but it is very close and works much better than
any projector to date . When projectors can do HDR this good without external devices or implementation, and when standards are settled, we will finally get HDR the way it was intended .

I have to mention that at least Sony recognized the mess it had with HDR on the VW665 , the revised implementation including HDR slider and HLG and a number of other features was given without question to every 665 owner
once they upgraded to the VW675 . JVC on the other hand , absolutely denied any such upgrade , left their owners high and dry . Not that any of these upgrades were the solution, it was only a improved version at best. Having a
projector with "older" features devalues that device while the "newer" model continues to sell .

Many of the JVC owners believed I was unrealistic demanding this upgrade , caused quite a stir . Now in the JVC upgrade thread I see how many of the same are upset that older units are not getting the CMD fix, in fact it was one
of the first questions asked of JVC at Berlin . Obviously , requesting an upgrade for a feature that was broken is not so preposterous after all .
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post #1423 of 3664 Old 10-17-2017, 04:19 AM
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Originally Posted by AMartin56 View Post
Interesting. I may have to check one out. I picked up the Sony as a port in a storm after having an Oppo that locked up constantly. I just can't justify the cost of the Panny. It doesn't seem to be budging at all price wise and I'll just watch my Blu-rays rather than purchase yet another player.
the step down models do offer identical Image quality. I can recommend the ub700.
Even the mini UB400 has the same image processing power AND has an Info button to show the current Signal OUT details as well as a HDR Button for 4 Presets.

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post #1424 of 3664 Old 10-17-2017, 04:26 AM
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I also bought the Oppo 203 for the same reason most on here probably did, we owned previous generation Oppo players and were comfortable Oppo would be class leading. The Panasonic certainly does get great reviews. I will say in response to the video above, they actually use the Oppo 203 in house even though the Panasonic does some things better.


Follow-up video from HDTV test on why they use the Oppo inhouse (mostly because of Dolby Vision):
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post #1425 of 3664 Old 10-17-2017, 04:27 AM
 
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the step down models do offer identical Image quality. I can recommend the ub700.
Even the mini UB400 has the same image processing power AND has an Info button to show the current Signal OUT details as well as a HDR Button for 4 Presets.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6Ys6mpdhaZI
Thank you. The UB200 was brought to my attention and I just ordered one. Hopefully it is similar.
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post #1426 of 3664 Old 10-17-2017, 04:38 AM
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That is the problem with HDR right now, it's just not ready for main stream consumer consumption . Standards are not really set , movies are mastered at levels all over the place and projectors cannot compensate properly.
This is where I am as well. HDR is a mess right now as can be seen in almost any HDR related threads (Apple TV 4k, projectors, flat panels, gaming consoles). Results are all over the place and a common theme is it looks great sometimes and way to dark other times. 99% of consumers just want to turn the thing on and have it work. They have no idea how to customize settings nor are they interested in doing so. There are people on AVS with great knowledge and are willing to do custom gamma curves and have their projectors calibrated regularly. That is not the market, that is the .1% that resides on AVS.
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post #1427 of 3664 Old 10-17-2017, 04:47 AM
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I too have both those players and the Panasonic is still an absolute belter! Especially considering it came out first, years ago.

The Oppo is truly excellent also, but more 'forensic' and not quite as natural and effortless somehow, if you know what I mean. Love 'em both. Top of the tree.

Cheers.
I've been too Burnt by a prior oppo,and I've heard enough about playback lockups on the 4k models, I'd personally avoid them. The only reason I still have my current one, and haven't put an axe through it is the subtitle shift. The Pans 900 has subtitle shift so to me it isn't even a difficult choice.

Can the Sony shift subtitles? I didn't think so from my research. If not, I'm not interested.
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post #1428 of 3664 Old 10-17-2017, 04:54 AM
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Best solution I have seen so far is the Lumagen Pro . The HDR tone and intensity mapping implementation is best I have seen, others have reported exactly the same . Not quite plug and play, but it is very close and works much better than
any projector to date . When projectors can do HDR this good without external devices or implementation, and when standards are settled, we will finally get HDR the way it was intended
.

Whilst that is great, it shouldn't be necessary in 2017. I mean how much extra do those outboard VPUs cost? thousands isn't it?

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Obviously , requesting an upgrade for a feature that was broken is not so preposterous after all .
Quite!
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post #1429 of 3664 Old 10-17-2017, 05:16 AM
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99% of consumers just want to turn the thing on and have it work. They have no idea how to customize settings nor are they interested in doing so.
Now you are finally getting where I have been coming from......... Except for the 'no idea how to' part, LOL.

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There are people on AVS with great knowledge and are willing to do custom gamma curves and have their projectors calibrated regularly. That is not the market, that is the .1% that resides on AVS.
Indeed. And whilst I have an extremely technical mind (computers, electronics and motor vehicles are in my past vocations) hence reading up on colour conversion etc to try to sort my issue myself, I no longer appreciate (with all the fantastic electronics around these days) having to delve into the darkest recesses of settings and menus in devices to get an image that looks realistic.
I had the patience in my younger days but now, I just want it to work as promised out of the box. Sure, I will tweak a little there and there to optimise a bit of course, but that shouldn't involve wholesale changing of the signal to do so.

My friends and family take up far more of my time than in my younger years when I would pour over every setting and test everything out just to see what it would do, but that was in hindsight, more borne out of trying to optimise or improve something to rival a higher model (which I wouldn't have been able to afford back then). It was like getting one over on the manufacturers (a badge of honour if you will) in finding a secret setting or twiddling until something was as good as the one that cost twice as much.

Or to put in my local vernacular, I simply cannot be arsed to do that anymore, other things are more important.

Cheers.
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post #1430 of 3664 Old 10-17-2017, 05:21 AM
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I've been too Burnt by a prior oppo,and I've heard enough about playback lockups on the 4k models, I'd personally avoid them. The only reason I still have my current one, and haven't put an axe through it is the subtitle shift. The Pans 900 has subtitle shift so to me it isn't even a difficult choice.

Can the Sony shift subtitles? I didn't think so from my research. If not, I'm not interested.
Hi.
I have never suffered from any playback lockups during normal use or any of the so called 'tray out' problems either on my 203.

The one (and only) time it did lock, was when I was going back and forth and back and forth between different modes to see if I could fix my issue, and after 10-15 minutes of that it just gave up and froze. That is purely down to me in that case, I was simply taxing the VPU switching too much I guess.
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post #1431 of 3664 Old 10-17-2017, 05:23 AM
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[QUOTE=Frohlich;54967156]I also bought the Oppo 203 for the same reason most on here probably did, we owned previous generation Oppo players and were comfortable Oppo would be class leading. The Panasonic certainly does get great reviews. I will say in response to the video above, they actually use the Oppo 203 in house even though the Panasonic does some things better.


Wow. What a useful video. Just the portion of setting the "source direct" for bluray to let the projector do the up-scaling vs the oppo was worth its weight in gold. The other functionality he discusses on the oppo were just as interesting. Since our projectors cannot handle dolby vison, I suppose selecting just HDR10 on the oppo if you have a dolby vision UHD DVD would be useful as well.
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post #1432 of 3664 Old 10-17-2017, 05:28 AM
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Thank you. The UB200 was brought to my attention and I just ordered one. Hopefully it is similar.
That model features their new 'HCX Precise Chroma' processor.
Nice.
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post #1433 of 3664 Old 10-17-2017, 05:37 AM
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Wow. What a useful video. Just the portion of setting the "source direct" for bluray to let the projector do the up-scaling vs the oppo was worth its weight in gold.
I have requested to Panasonic that they include Source Direct on the UB9/700 too as it is extremely useful for directly comparing the display's upscaling (both pixel and chroma) versus the player's. I was told that they were looking into it.

As an aside, one thing I would like to ask someone to try, for those of you with Oppo 203s and 360/385 projectors, is to set the Oppo 203 to Source Direct (everything else on 'auto') and lob in the 'Billy-Ray Cyrus' UHD see what happens.

Cheers.

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post #1434 of 3664 Old 10-17-2017, 05:42 AM
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Originally Posted by AMartin56 View Post
I'll let you know how it goes old chap! I hope it's not all mouth and no trousers! Hopefully its a corker and I'll be chuffed!
Cool, I will be interested to hear, however I think you will basically be on to a winner as I have never personally seen a fail by Panasonic when it comes to picture quality.

My M.I.L had a 32" Panasonic 720P normal LCD from about 2006 and it even then accepted 1080P signals!
The scaler in it was fricking awesome, as it gave an image when fed 1080p that was visibly (even to the other mum) better (and even dug up more detail somehow) than a full HD 1080P Samsung set I had that was two or three years its junior. Man that image just popped and the motion was sooo nice.
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post #1435 of 3664 Old 10-17-2017, 08:12 AM
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He's not an old chap, he's a "dude," apparently, it's a common universal word used in England when you address another male . Funny thing is , I thought it would have been bloke . Go figure.
Then let me educate you....

Bloke is broadly used when referencing someone you haven't ever been introduced to. i.e. 'that bloke over there' and generally not in face to face contact.
Dude could also be interchanged with this but is seen widely as a more personal affirmation. Indeed, despite it's more common usage to wards known people, 'dude' can be equally acceptable to refer to a passer by such, but bloke would be considered quite rude.
No one really uses 'bloke' in referral to acquaintances or less still friends. Of course people can and do use bloke in any way they want, but like anything else, it is a personal and free choice.

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Deja Vu indeed .
Hasn't that already been said? Talk about Deja Vu........

It is obvious that you think I am someone I am not, but I assure you, I am not that person, whomsoever they actually are.
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post #1436 of 3664 Old 10-17-2017, 08:14 AM
 
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This is where I am as well. HDR is a mess right now as can be seen in almost any HDR related threads (Apple TV 4k, projectors, flat panels, gaming consoles). Results are all over the place and a common theme is it looks great sometimes and way to dark other times. 99% of consumers just want to turn the thing on and have it work. They have no idea how to customize settings nor are they interested in doing so. There are people on AVS with great knowledge and are willing to do custom gamma curves and have their projectors calibrated regularly. That is not the market, that is the .1% that resides on AVS.
This is one of the reasons I was more accepting of the limitations of the 385es.

I didn't LOVE HDR on my JVC and I don't love it on my current Sony. And it's not an issue of native vs E Shift or 1250 lumens vs 1600 -ish lumens. I think it comes down to HDR not really having projectors in mind when these discs are mastered.

So while I'll continue to look for means to improve my experience with UHD (like a Panny player) in the meantime I'm watching a ton of Blu-ray which looks universally awesome on this projector.
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post #1437 of 3664 Old 10-17-2017, 08:16 AM
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Also 'old chap' is used in a light hearted jocular way in most instances, same as 'old bean', but it really doesn't see much use these days. Especially amongst the 'Yout'.

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post #1438 of 3664 Old 10-17-2017, 09:12 AM
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Originally Posted by Frohlich View Post
This is where I am as well. HDR is a mess right now as can be seen in almost any HDR related threads (Apple TV 4k, projectors, flat panels, gaming consoles). Results are all over the place and a common theme is it looks great sometimes and way to dark other times. 99% of consumers just want to turn the thing on and have it work. They have no idea how to customize settings nor are they interested in doing so. There are people on AVS with great knowledge and are willing to do custom gamma curves and have their projectors calibrated regularly. That is not the market, that is the .1% that resides on AVS.

You're right, but you're being much too optimistic with the .1%, lol, it's prolly .01% on a "good" day.

Imagine, if you will, how many people out of 10,000 would even consider multiple settings for varying inputs, media, and/or viewing conditions.

It's prolly closer to zero than 1.

James
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post #1439 of 3664 Old 10-17-2017, 10:10 AM
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I've been too Burnt by a prior oppo,and I've heard enough about playback lockups on the 4k models, I'd personally avoid them. The only reason I still have my current one, and haven't put an axe through it is the subtitle shift. The Pans 900 has subtitle shift so to me it isn't even a difficult choice.

Can the Sony shift subtitles? I didn't think so from my research. If not, I'm not interested.
I had a good experience with my first Oppo the 103, never had a hitch . Too bad you had issues , story to hear about that . It had a lot of good features, certainly the no ring scaling and Darbee well used.
I also had a region free mod installed, so it was my go to player for quite some time . When I sold it I netted a 65% return from the original purchase , no other piece of AV equipment I have owned has
retained that kind of value after three years. I bought the Oppo 203 this time around . I also have the UB900 , both do a great job , neither seems to stand out . I'd actually have to give some thought to
which one I would retain if I had to let one go . Currently I use one for 4K HDR the other 1080 2D and 3D , just easier that way, don't have to adjust settings, have a back up if one fails.

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post #1440 of 3664 Old 10-17-2017, 10:25 AM
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Banding update

Ok, finally had some quiet time during lunch between conference calls to do some research and I found banding. Just trying to add to the previous findings on the thread and to hopefully provide some additional insight to owners and prospective owners. I tried to find a UHD blue ray scene with bright skys involved. Here is what I found:

Movie: Transformers The Last Knight UHD/4k

Timer: chapter 5 start at 28:15 + chapter 6 start at 33:53 (33:57 is the worst I have seen for a singular example)

No HDR at 24HZ: no banding in the sky at all

HDR at 24HZ: very faint banding in the sky (cannot really notice it while playing but if you pause it you can see it)

HDR at forced 60HZ via Oppo player: very easy to see banding in the sky

No HDR and forced 60HZ: no banding at all

Seems to be some combination of HDR and 60hz causing the issue to be the worst that I can find but it does appear that even at HDR + 24hz there are some very minor signs of it occurring. My most surprising find is it does not occur at 60hz by itself. HDR seems to be more of the root cause than anything.

So those are my findings. Hopefully it will help others as we keep digging into this. I have never noticed it during playback so far after watching 4 UHD blu rays (24HZ) but it does seem like bright scenes with the sky are the easiest to identify. As others have mentioned, devices that output at 4k at 60HZ +HDR are likely where this might be noticed by customers.

ADDENDUM: Not sure my findings are 100% valid. If I play with the Nits slide on the Oppo player and max it out to 1600, I can get fine banding without HDR or without 60HZ in the two scenes I mentioned above but your REALLY have to look for it. Will keep playing with it tonight. Maybe HDR just makes it worse but maybe it is in the source material ????? Could even be the Oppo Player??? More research is needed
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Last edited by Frohlich; 10-17-2017 at 11:05 AM.
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