Sony VPL-VW285ES Owners Thread - Page 10 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #271 of 3789 Old 10-18-2017, 02:30 PM
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Originally Posted by Drastic380 View Post
Just played Grand Terismo Sport on ps4 pro. Oh the binding is everywhere! On every body panel in the cutscenes on anything with solid color. During racing the sky that's supposed to be beautiful looks terrible... I'm finally starting to feel like Archibald, how for 5k can this not play Sony play station games anywhere near what the developer(essentially Sony) intended. Really wanted to be able to park my steering wheel infornt of this projector and get lost in a race, that's never gonna happen....starting to consider my 90 day return with crutchfield.

What other projector out there can handle wcg+hdr+60fpd+4k or fauxk without bending for around $5000?
Since you are gaming, I think its been said the 285/385 is around 55ms in 4k and the JVC 520/540 is around 37 when fed a 4k signal. It's only a 18ms difference but the JVC is supposed to be quicker and it checks all your other boxes.

Keen in mind the 55ms was something that projectorcentral was told by Sony but has not yet been verified.
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post #272 of 3789 Old 10-18-2017, 02:32 PM
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Originally Posted by SOWK View Post
Are people still trying to get HDR to work on projectors? :P
Not trying, enjoying.

It helps that Jim at Lumagen has the HDR Intensity Mapping working well and providing a great image on screen.
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post #273 of 3789 Old 10-18-2017, 02:46 PM
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Gang, I don't mean to interject but I have been looking into the banding on the Sony 385 thread. I just popped into here and see that is active topic here as well. Up until 30 minutes ago I thought it was the projector as well but I am no longer convinced. I was able to create and remove the banding simply by taking my receiver out of the signal chain. I am sure there will be plenty more healthy discussion but not everyone is seeing the banding and my test of altering the HDMI signal chain has nothing to do with the Projector so it might just be something else. If interested, you can see post #1538 in the Sony 385 thread. I have other earlier posts where I was able to create the banding watching Transformers UHD blu ray.

I am not an engineer and I am not claiming my research process is perfect but I am trying to do so laymans research to help all the Sony projector owners that may be impacted.
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post #274 of 3789 Old 10-18-2017, 02:52 PM
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Originally Posted by Frohlich View Post
Gang, I don't mean to interject but I have been looking into the banding on the Sony 385 thread. I just popped into here and see that is active topic here as well. Up until 30 minutes ago I thought it was the projector as well but I am no longer convinced. I was able to create and remove the banding simply by taking my receiver out of the signal chain. I am sure there will be plenty more healthy discussion but not everyone is seeing the banding and my test of altering the HDMI signal chain has nothing to do with the Projector so it might just be something else. If interested, you can see post #1538 in the Sony 385 thread. I have other earlier posts where I was able to create the banding watching Transformers UHD blu ray.

I am not an engineer and I am not claiming my research process is perfect but I am trying to do so laymans research to help all the Sony projector owners that may be impacted.
What receiver ? Is it set to just pass through the signal ? Maybe your Sony projector is crying out for a Sony receiver !

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post #275 of 3789 Old 10-18-2017, 02:57 PM
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Originally Posted by Craig Peer View Post
What receiver ? Is it set to just pass through the signal ? Maybe your Sony projector is crying out for a Sony receiver !
It's a Marantz 8802A. Does this help???


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post #276 of 3789 Old 10-18-2017, 03:20 PM
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Originally Posted by kaotikr1 View Post
Since you are gaming, I think its been said the 285/385 is around 55ms in 4k and the JVC 520/540 is around 37 when fed a 4k signal. It's only a 18ms difference but the JVC is supposed to be quicker and it checks all your other boxes.

Keen in mind the 55ms was something that projectorcentral was told by Sony but has not yet been verified.
i didnt see a serious report that jvc has 37ms lag with 4k gaming
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post #277 of 3789 Old 10-18-2017, 03:57 PM
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Originally Posted by Frohlich View Post
Gang, I don't mean to interject but I have been looking into the banding on the Sony 385 thread. I just popped into here and see that is active topic here as well. Up until 30 minutes ago I thought it was the projector as well but I am no longer convinced. I was able to create and remove the banding simply by taking my receiver out of the signal chain. I am sure there will be plenty more healthy discussion but not everyone is seeing the banding and my test of altering the HDMI signal chain has nothing to do with the Projector so it might just be something else. If interested, you can see post #1538 in the Sony 385 thread. I have other earlier posts where I was able to create the banding watching Transformers UHD blu ray.

I am not an engineer and I am not claiming my research process is perfect but I am trying to do so laymans research to help all the Sony projector owners that may be impacted.
I read your post there as well, unfortunately I have had most of my devices connected directly, ps4 pro and oppo 205, but I never have gotten any banding that's not from the source at 24 and hdr. When play with my oppo and the Samsung travel with my pet 60fps hdr video I could make the banding go away in 2 ways:
1) set oppo to output udp 24 or
2) strip hdr metadata

#2 didn't look as good, and #1 didn't make the motion of the dogs fur look great.

This happens exactly the same on a different device, the shield if set to 60 will band hdr YouTube, at 30 the banding is gone(except for what you usually get on YouTube)

I was hoping it's something simple but I think we're almost at the issue here and it's looking to be the projector...

I have about 60 days for Sony to fix this and I have some hard thinking to do...
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post #278 of 3789 Old 10-18-2017, 04:06 PM
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There is some hope as there is talk of Ekki being able to get rid of the banding through calibration/tuning? Anyone have more info?
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post #279 of 3789 Old 10-18-2017, 04:14 PM
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Originally Posted by cemo62 View Post
i didnt see a serious report that jvc has 37ms lag with 4k gaming
The below review of the RS420 had 1080p @ 37ms and 2160p @ 21ms. This is not the only review where I've seen 4k actually come out lower, but I can't recall off hand the source.

"JVC DLA-RS420 brings a huge change for gamers. The "Low Latency" mode, which I mentioned in the paragraph about motion mapping. It is in this menu tab that there is a setting that drastically reduces the signal delay. Remember the RS400? It has a delay of 120ms! It was far too much for anyone to use it with the console, unless it was for really demanding games. The new model lets you reduce this value to just 21ms at 3840x2160p60 (this is the latest console)"

German review: https://hdtvpolska.com/jvc-dla-rs420...-eshift-i-hdr/
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post #280 of 3789 Old 10-18-2017, 04:18 PM
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Originally Posted by ChromeAce View Post
When the 13.5Gb/s HDMI bandwidth limitation gets saturated I imagine the Sony is starting to compress and throw out information, but I can't know that for sure. Another poster in this thread indicated it has something to do with the signal inside the projector from one circuit board to another. At this point it's a mystery to me.
The bit about compression and discarding data makes perfect sense and lends itself nicely to what emerges and gets beamed to the screen.
It is to do with a signal sent from the source at the very limit of the bandwidth available, being sent through a processor not really designed to cope with the deluge of data that ensues.
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post #281 of 3789 Old 10-18-2017, 04:31 PM
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Originally Posted by Frohlich View Post
Gang, I don't mean to interject but I have been looking into the banding on the Sony 385 thread. I just popped into here and see that is active topic here as well. Up until 30 minutes ago I thought it was the projector as well but I am no longer convinced. I was able to create and remove the banding simply by taking my receiver out of the signal chain. I am sure there will be plenty more healthy discussion but not everyone is seeing the banding and my test of altering the HDMI signal chain has nothing to do with the Projector so it might just be something else. If interested, you can see post #1538 in the Sony 385 thread. I have other earlier posts where I was able to create the banding watching Transformers UHD blu ray.

I am not an engineer and I am not claiming my research process is perfect but I am trying to do so laymans research to help all the Sony projector owners that may be impacted.
I have a Pioneer SC-LX89 receiver set to (and this is a crucial point) full 4:4:4 4K 60hz passthrough. The setting was hidden in the depths of the manual and would be easy to miss. The default setting (that would introduce some real funkiness into the signal) was 4:2:0 4K 60hz passthrough. This could only be changed by switching off the receiver and holding down certain buttons whilst powering back on and can’t be accessed or changed via normal menu operation.

So I would check you haven’t missed a setting such as this before discounting the receiver.

I too checked by direct connection to the projector from the source and it did not make the slightest difference for me.
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post #282 of 3789 Old 10-18-2017, 04:37 PM
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Originally Posted by Drastic380 View Post
I read your post there as well, unfortunately I have had most of my devices connected directly, ps4 pro and oppo 205, but I never have gotten any banding that's not from the source at 24 and hdr. When play with my oppo and the Samsung travel with my pet 60fps hdr video I could make the banding go away in 2 ways:
1) set oppo to output udp 24 or
2) strip hdr metadata

#2 didn't look as good, and #1 didn't make the motion of the dogs fur look great.

This happens exactly the same on a different device, the shield if set to 60 will band hdr YouTube, at 30 the banding is gone(except for what you usually get on YouTube)

I was hoping it's something simple but I think we're almost at the issue here and it's looking to be the projector...

I have about 60 days for Sony to fix this and I have some hard thinking to do...
I concur. Those are the same findings as my 550.

Deciding if you can live with it or not and then taking appropriate action, is the only decision that matters for you at this point. Personally, I can’t live with it.
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post #283 of 3789 Old 10-18-2017, 04:46 PM
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Originally Posted by Archibald1 View Post
Deciding if you can live with it or not and then taking appropriate action, is the only decision that matters for you at this point. Personally, I can?t live with it.
Taking my 285 to a jvc dealer tomorrow and gonna compare to the 520. I'd be looking at a 440 if it can do better blacks, same brightness and same beautiful color.
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post #284 of 3789 Old 10-18-2017, 04:48 PM
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There is some hope as there is talk of Ekki being able to get rid of the banding through calibration/tuning? Anyone have more info?
I too am extremely interested to know exactly how that was done. I would love not to have to un mount my projector if at all possible.

However, as these projectors have ‘hardware limitations’ that cause this issue, I am sceptical that the resulting image from any such wizardry would be acceptable to everyone or indeed completely eliminate the problem.
Also perceptual differences between us all means, I may still notice some artefacts others may not and indeed, vice versa.

Happy to be proven wrong if it works, although *very importantly*, it HAS to be a set and forget solution as anything less, is just a temporary fudge to me.
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post #285 of 3789 Old 10-18-2017, 05:06 PM
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I'm not convinced this is a hardware limitation honestly. I would try to get a hold of a JVC to just see and compare.

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post #286 of 3789 Old 10-18-2017, 07:53 PM
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Originally Posted by tedaudio View Post
If 10 bit HDR is downconverted to 8bit by this sony projector and SDR is 8bit, why would SDR look better if it's 8bit already?
That is a good question and one I am interested to hear also.
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post #287 of 3789 Old 10-18-2017, 08:46 PM
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Originally Posted by Drastic380 View Post
Taking my 285 to a jvc dealer tomorrow and gonna compare to the 520. I'd be looking at a 440 if it can do better blacks, same brightness and same beautiful color.
I have read a review of 285 vs 440. It will be interesting to hear your thoughts. Sounds like Sony has better ANSI contract than the JVC which is confusing to me. Also better motion.

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post #288 of 3789 Old 10-18-2017, 09:19 PM
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Originally Posted by RUN-NE1 View Post
I have read a review of 285 vs 440. It will be interesting to hear your thoughts. Sounds like Sony has better ANSI contract than the JVC which is confusing to me. Also better motion.
Where was the review of the 285 vs 440?
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post #289 of 3789 Old 10-18-2017, 10:41 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Drastic380 View Post
There is some hope as there is talk of Ekki being able to get rid of the banding through calibration/tuning? Anyone have more info?

Yes I hear it has something to do with a funky "S" curve being used for gamma in HDR. If that's corrected to a normal HDR PQ acting curve then I think it clears the banding, along with probably some other calibrated settings.

This makes sense to me because I recall inducing similar banding while messing with my custom gammas for my HarperVision tweaks.

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Originally Posted by Archibald1 View Post
The bit about compression and discarding data makes perfect sense and lends itself nicely to what emerges and gets beamed to the screen.


It is to do with a signal sent from the source at the very limit of the bandwidth available, being sent through a processor not really designed to cope with the deluge of data that ensues.

I don't think it's the very limit of the bandwidth though. 4K60p 4:2:0 10 bit HDR bt2020 uses about 11.5 Gbps as we hashed out a few months ago for the 675ES. The new Sonys have 13.5Gbps. You'd have to go to 12 bit with everything else being equal to hit that limit.
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post #290 of 3789 Old 10-19-2017, 03:12 AM
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Originally Posted by Dave Harper View Post
Yes I hear it has something to do with a funky "S" curve being used for gamma in HDR. If that's corrected to a normal HDR PQ acting curve then I think it clears the banding, along with probably some other calibrated settings.
Hi Dave.

What a palaver, having to go to those lengths to get a presentable image!

Completely reasonably, a picture without obvious banding *should* be available out of the box without any mucking about with gamma settings, funky S curves or suchlike.
Nor should doing what is necessary to fix the issue affect any other modes or settings detrimentally by virtue of the tweaks needed to be resorted to.
It is something the manufacturer should *really* have tested (read QA'd) and viewed before release.
Then, if deemed impractical, they should have just ditched support at this stage. That would have shown integrity, even if it cost some sales.
I wonder....... Maybe that is how the 'variable quality' lenses made it out of the door too. Rushing to market.

These projectors are probably not their biggest earners granted, but that still doesn't excuse rushing products out with inadequate hardware for the included modes.
They do have a huge mark up though, and as a result and the bottom line probably wouldn't suffer much from a few missed sales.
Indeed, I would venture that in that hypothetical scenario they may even sell more, as word gets out that although the new models don't support 'the new fangled 60hz HDR modes', everything else is works 100% as expected and the picture produced is gorgeous!
Which would, given that scenario, be highly likely due to the fact that many on here are quite vocal in that they don't even want to used that mode anyway and therefore wouldn't miss it if it wasn't there!


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I don't think it's the very limit of the bandwidth though. 4K60p 4:2:0 10 bit HDR bt2020 uses about 11.5 Gbps as we hashed out a few months ago for the 675ES. The new Sonys have 13.5Gbps. You'd have to go to 12 bit with everything else being equal to hit that limit.
My Oppo will output 12 bit at 4:2:0, when set to 60hz by default, as it is the maximum setting the projector accepts. That is what I was referring to, sorry for not clarifying.
No a 10 bit signal is not at the absolute max of the bandwidth, (11.1Gbps IIRC) but the problem is of course still there even if 10bit is forced, due to the inadequate processing chops for the high data signal.
In fact, it would explain why the 12bit signal (which you would expect logically to improve the situation) looks subjectively even worse than the 10bit signal. It would be because even more data has had to be ditched before the processor can convert to RGB.
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post #291 of 3789 Old 10-19-2017, 05:06 AM
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Originally Posted by tedaudio View Post
If 10 bit HDR is downconverted to 8bit by this sony projector and SDR is 8bit, why would SDR look better if it's 8bit already?
8bit is enough for SDR, as SDR has a smaller range of brightness level. ("steps")
HDR needs at least 10bit to be banding free.
Why? Because HDR, as the name itself tells us, has a wider gap between the darkest and brightest shades of color.

Example:
SDR: Black is value 1, peak White is value 256 -> 256 steps (8bit)
HDR: Black is value 1, peak white is value 1024 -> 1024 steps (10bit)
-> The HDR signal is meant do be displayed with a much higher max. brightness.

if you convert the 1024 steps from HDR to only 256 steps, there are just not enough steps for a banding free picture, because the projector still thinks he needs to apply the HDR gamma curve which is intended to work with 1024 steps...therefore, if you have like 4 shades with 10bit, you only have 1 shade left for the same area with a downconverted 8bit HDR signal...

In short:
- SDR has limited brightness = limited dynamic range from black to white, this is why 8bit / 256 steps are enough
- HDR: has an increased dynamic range, therefore need more steps (1024 / 10 bit)
if you try to display the same range of brightness (HDR) with only 256 shades, you will see the missing steps...

Graphic example
SDR Dynmaic range:
........
HDR Dynamic range:
................................
if you downconvert HDR to 8bit this is whats left:
........
but unfortunately, the display still wants to show HDR:
-------------------------
See that the steps are wider

I hope either the technical or the more vivid graphical explanation shows the point
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post #292 of 3789 Old 10-19-2017, 10:05 AM
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Originally Posted by Frohlich View Post
Gang, I don't mean to interject but I have been looking into the banding on the Sony 385 thread. I just popped into here and see that is active topic here as well. Up until 30 minutes ago I thought it was the projector as well but I am no longer convinced. I was able to create and remove the banding simply by taking my receiver out of the signal chain. I am sure there will be plenty more healthy discussion but not everyone is seeing the banding and my test of altering the HDMI signal chain has nothing to do with the Projector so it might just be something else. If interested, you can see post #1538 in the Sony 385 thread. I have other earlier posts where I was able to create the banding watching Transformers UHD blu ray.

I am not an engineer and I am not claiming my research process is perfect but I am trying to do so laymans research to help all the Sony projector owners that may be impacted.
My testing was done connecting source devices directly, so that's not the issue.
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post #293 of 3789 Old 10-19-2017, 10:10 AM
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Originally Posted by ChromeAce View Post
My testing was done connecting source devices directly, so that's not the issue.
I am posting over mostly on the 385 thread since that is what I own so I made several additional posts later in the day. I also tried that later in the day (oppo directly to projector) and nothing changed in my results. There are people on the 385 thread not having issues with 60hz + HDR so the whole thing is perpexling
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post #294 of 3789 Old 10-19-2017, 10:10 AM
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Originally Posted by Archibald1 View Post
I have a Pioneer SC-LX89 receiver set to (and this is a crucial point) full 4:4:4 4K 60hz passthrough. The setting was hidden in the depths of the manual and would be easy to miss. The default setting (that would introduce some real funkiness into the signal) was 4:2:0 4K 60hz passthrough. This could only be changed by switching off the receiver and holding down certain buttons whilst powering back on and can’t be accessed or changed via normal menu operation.

So I would check you haven’t missed a setting such as this before discounting the receiver.

I too checked by direct connection to the projector from the source and it did not make the slightest difference for me.
You actually don't want to be sending 4:4:4 4K 60hz to a projector unless that's what kind of source material you have (doesn't exist in the commercial American market). You're saturating your HDMI cable and the input on the projector and likely will result in errors and dropped data. The projector converts all incoming signals to 4:4:4 RGB on its own and will do a better job of it than your receiver.

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post #295 of 3789 Old 10-19-2017, 10:40 AM
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there are no 4K JVC projectors

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Originally Posted by Javs View Post
Grab the best JVC you can afford. No banding at all and full 18gbps HDMI.
There are no 4K native JVC projectors except the DLA-RS4500K at $34999.95.

Oppo UDP-205,  TV 4K, TiVo Bolt, Sony FMP-X10, Sony VPL-VW285ES, Sony VPL-VW665ES, Sony STRZA5000ES, Sony XBR75X940D, Sony XBR65X930D, Sony XBR55X930D, Paradigm Prestige 75F, Paradim CI Pro P80A, Paradigm PDR-W100, Stewart Cima 135"
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post #296 of 3789 Old 10-19-2017, 10:50 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChromeAce View Post
You actually don't want to be sending 4:4:4 4K 60hz to a projector unless that's what kind of source material you have (doesn't exist in the commercial American market). You're saturating your HDMI cable and the input on the projector and likely will result in errors and dropped data. The projector converts all incoming signals to 4:4:4 RGB on its own and will do a better job of it than your receiver.
You misunderstand.
As I stated, my receiver is set to full 4:4:4 pass-through.
Nothing is added to the signal, it just activates the full bandwidth of the HDMI interface to allow HFR HDR WCG signals to sent by the source to the display, that wouldn't otherwise be possible with the default 4:2:0 8bit pass-through mode that is enabled by default.
That is to say, it just passes the signal sent by the source to the display in exactly the format it left in, but with full 18Gbps headroom available in case it is an enhanced format signal.

Video conversion, which I think you may have been referring to, and is handled my a Marvell Qdeo chip in this case, but is well and truly switched off on my receiver. It is just used as a fancy high bandwidth switching box for video.

I will add that it simply doesn't matter what chroma you set the source signal to when sending 4k HDR HFR to one of these.
Handshake will only complete at 4:2:0 chroma for transport in such WCG HFR HDR modes. There simply isn't the bandwidth available for them to accept anything more.

You can try to force more down the pipe of course, but you will get handshake failure or at best a flashing screen and maybe some sound if you are lucky.

Cheers.
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post #297 of 3789 Old 10-19-2017, 11:05 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ForceUser View Post
8bit is enough for SDR, as SDR has a smaller range of brightness level. ("steps")
HDR needs at least 10bit to be banding free.
Why? Because HDR, as the name itself tells us, has a wider gap between the darkest and brightest shades of color.

Example:
SDR: Black is value 1, peak White is value 256 -> 256 steps (8bit)
HDR: Black is value 1, peak white is value 1024 -> 1024 steps (10bit)
-> The HDR signal is meant do be displayed with a much higher max. brightness.

if you convert the 1024 steps from HDR to only 256 steps, there are just not enough steps for a banding free picture, because the projector still thinks he needs to apply the HDR gamma curve which is intended to work with 1024 steps...therefore, if you have like 4 shades with 10bit, you only have 1 shade left for the same area with a downconverted 8bit HDR signal...

In short:
- SDR has limited brightness = limited dynamic range from black to white, this is why 8bit / 256 steps are enough
- HDR: has an increased dynamic range, therefore need more steps (1024 / 10 bit)
if you try to display the same range of brightness (HDR) with only 256 shades, you will see the missing steps...

Graphic example
SDR Dynmaic range:
........
HDR Dynamic range:
................................
if you downconvert HDR to 8bit this is whats left:
........
but unfortunately, the display still wants to show HDR:
-------------------------
See that the steps are wider

I hope either the technical or the more vivid graphical explanation shows the point
Great explanation!!
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post #298 of 3789 Old 10-19-2017, 11:06 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChromeAce View Post
There are no 4K native JVC projectors except the DLA-RS4500K at $34999.95.
I think that is well known, but the question was "What other projector out there can handle wcg+hdr+60fpd+4k or fauxk without bending for around $5000?"

And the JVC RS series does do that.
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post #299 of 3789 Old 10-19-2017, 11:10 AM
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Originally Posted by Drastic380 View Post
Just played Grand Terismo Sport on ps4 pro. Oh the binding is everywhere! On every body panel in the cutscenes on anything with solid color. During racing the sky that's supposed to be beautiful looks terrible... I'm finally starting to feel like Archibald, how for 5k can this not play Sony play station games anywhere near what the developer(essentially Sony) intended. Really wanted to be able to park my steering wheel infornt of this projector and get lost in a race, that's never gonna happen....starting to consider my 90 day return with crutchfield.

What other projector out there can handle wcg+hdr+60fpd+4k or fauxk without bending for around $5000?
Any of the JVC's.
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post #300 of 3789 Old 10-19-2017, 11:16 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Drastic380 View Post
Taking my 285 to a jvc dealer tomorrow and gonna compare to the 520. I'd be looking at a 440 if it can do better blacks, same brightness and same beautiful color.
If you have a pretty good room, then I would look at the 540. Much better contrast, than 440.
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