Official JVC - 20LTD - RS640 (x990/x9900) - RS540 (X790/x7900) - Owners Thread - Page 158 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #4711 of 12005 Old 02-09-2018, 01:54 PM
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Originally Posted by Javs View Post
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Originally Posted by rlarsen462 View Post
Let's talk Altered Carbon for a second. This show seems to be really well done in HDR...the brights are almost excruciating even using the V2 4000 nit curve from Javs, and now on the second episode I noted the projector reporting a MaxCLL of 10000 and a MaxFALL of 2124! For shows like this do we almost need ANOTHER curve even higher than the 4000 curve?

FWIW this show might be the best looking thing I've watched so far on the X990...the detail and dynamics are really impressive. It's a visual treat. for sure.
I made new curves last night.

I followed Mannis lead and investigated highlight rolloffs again. I should have stuck with the path I was doing with the v1 curves. Anyway there are new curves now. I suggest people load up incredibly bright highlight content and compare them with v2.

Batman vs Superman is the perfect example. Shadow detail is identical and well resolved. But with the v1, v2 and even Mannis new curves I was seeing too much highlight compressions and I felt it was turning fire too white and lightning bolts too intense losing graduations and actually creating posterization.. I am really happy with what I came up with.

With post them very shortly, again, I suggest you guys load up the v2 and v3 4000nits curve and test it out for yourself on a really really intense scene. You might find a preference, there will be no wrong answer, it's about options. I think I like the v3 curves though, watched a lot of mad Max and Batman vs Superman with it and it looks fantastic and a bit more HDR to me. Also made new 1200 nit curves, which makes blue planet watchabke with a similar roll-off so it seems I may be onto something.

Just to show something I will ask a question

Which fire looks best?

My gut is telling me the 2nd (middle) one looks best. I'll definitely try it the V3 on Altered Carbon as it has extremely bright highlights as mentioned above.

You'll upload those in a few hours to the same dropbox?

Thanks for always refining these...it's definitely out of my league and it's nice to just enjoy the result.
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post #4712 of 12005 Old 02-09-2018, 01:59 PM
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Yo Javs, I kinda like the top two fires. Hard to pick which one I like more..Look great.
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post #4713 of 12005 Old 02-09-2018, 02:19 PM
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Indeed the middle one are my new curves.

The top are my v2 ( I think maybe v1) and the bottom are mannis new ones.

Yes I will post them in the next hour.

Again no wrong answer, it WILL require true 4000 nit peaks to see what's going on with them.

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post #4714 of 12005 Old 02-09-2018, 02:40 PM
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Originally Posted by Javs View Post
Indeed the middle one are my new curves.

The top are my v2 ( I think maybe v1) and the bottom are mannis new ones.

Yes I will post them in the next hour.

Again no wrong answer, it WILL require true 4000 nit peaks to see what's going on with them.
Awesome, can't wait to upload them and try them out.

So there is an updated 1200 nit curve too then? Would you recommend I upload the V3 curves to two new slots rather than overwriting the V2 curves for now? i.e. will the V2 4000 nit curve potentially work better for 2000-3000 peak titles and the V3 4000 curve be better for 3000-10000?
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post #4715 of 12005 Old 02-09-2018, 02:56 PM
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Awesome, can't wait to upload them and try them out.

So there is an updated 1200 nit curve too then? Would you recommend I upload the V3 curves to two new slots rather than overwriting the V2 curves for now? i.e. will the V2 4000 nit curve potentially work better for 2000-3000 peak titles and the V3 4000 curve be better for 3000-10000?
Up to you, I will be using them for content over 1200nits.

Yes there is a new 1200nit curve.

I Suggest loading the 4000nit curve in a slot next to the v2 curves and have a look yourself, and decide what to keep.

I will show why I made these in a post coming in the next 5 minutes.

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post #4716 of 12005 Old 02-09-2018, 02:57 PM
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I made new curves last night.

I followed Mannis lead and investigated highlight rolloffs again. I should have stuck with the path I was doing with the v1 curves. Anyway there are new curves now. I suggest people load up incredibly bright highlight content and compare them with v2.

Batman vs Superman is the perfect example. Shadow detail is identical and well resolved. But with the v1, v2 and even Mannis new curves I was seeing too much highlight compressions and I felt it was turning fire too white and lightning bolts too intense losing graduations and actually creating posterization.. I am really happy with what I came up with.

With post them very shortly, again, I suggest you guys load up the v2 and v3 4000nits curve and test it out for yourself on a really really intense scene. You might find a preference, there will be no wrong answer, it's about options. I think I like the v3 curves though, watched a lot of mad Max and Batman vs Superman with it and it looks fantastic and a bit more HDR to me. Also made new 1200 nit curves, which makes blue planet watchabke with a similar roll-off so it seems I may be onto something.

Just to show something I will ask a question

Which fire looks best?

I like the detail in the middle picture
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post #4717 of 12005 Old 02-09-2018, 03:19 PM
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JAVS V3 CURVES

Alright guys, here are the v3 curves. I have made a zip file containing all three versions now for ease of use. You guys are free to compare them and pick your poison. The v3 curves are a little more radical which I will explain why.

Arve Tool Versions. - Preferred method

https://www.dropbox.com/s/xbwz9fyt62...%20v3.zip?dl=1

JVC Autocal Software Versions

Those of you who are too scared of the Arve Tool, which is by far the preferred method to use these curves, here is a version of the v3 curves which can be loaded using the JVC Autocal software into one of your custom Gamma slots. Obviously they are slightly lower resolution that the Arve tools curves which are 256 point rather than these being 12. But they should be pretty much the same otherwise.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/bz0j5saeok...sions.rar?dl=1


Here are both curves on an overlay, 1200 and 4000 nit.



I actually now set it to clip to 3977 nits, because typing any number above 3977 nits into the Arve tool results in a 4124nit curve I guess due to the slightly limited resolution of the curve creation, so, I would rather clip 23 nits than overshoot the target by 124 nits...

Here are the 4000nit curves compared

v3 vs v2



v3 vs v1



As it turns out, I had remembered back to when I was originally testing the Arve tool against the ST2084 built in gamma in the projector, and kept remembering that I actually preferred the fire in Batman V Superman with the built in ST2084 gamma. So I had a look at this again yesterday, and have now adapted the highlight rolloff in a big way to match the preference I had there, and I think I am really happy with this.

The problem is, we were going too bright generally with the Arve tool. Too bright everywhere above 100 nits. I was actually on the right track with the V1 curves and should have stuck with it.

My UHD Waveform analysis thread has done one thing for me, showed me where most of the real content that matters lies, and also showed me very clearly where all the highlight content begins from, it seems that over 100 nits we are well beginning to enter highlights in all content, really bright blue skies, reflections, fire, explosions etc...

For my 4000nit curve, I start adjusting this highlight rolloff at 150 nits, which is radical, we used to do this closer to 300, so, everything under 150 nits, is completely identical before This content UNDER 150nits, is why we all started using the Arve tool, we had pretty pathetic and unreliable shadow detail with the built in HDR gamma, now that's long been fixed, but in the process IMO, we went too hard with highlight detail, because we could, not giving it room to breathe.

Lets look at a couple waveforms and see first what's generally under 100nits, much more than you think!. First, look at how to read these waveforms.







This film never goes over 200 nits, but its interesting to see what lies under 100 nits here... I certainly had no problem with this films general brightness, again, this content will not be compromised or too dark with the new curves since I dont even touch under this point.







Not much general content above 150 nits there (between 512 and 640), only really content that started getting into highlights. So shadow detail is not going to be compromised with these curves.

Lets look at some really bright stuff, the stuff we want to adjust. Now I feel we were compressing all of this too much, I may be slightly throwing the ST2084 EOTF out the window here in regards to highlights, but I encourage you guys to test this content yourself if you have it. You need to fine true 4000nit content, Batman Vs Superman, Mad Max are two big ones.

This one is interesting, I did think this was much higher in nits, and found I couldn't get this to look good until I lowered where the rolloff begins.



Once that fire looked good to me, as you see above in earlier posts in my crappy samsung pics of fire, then this following stuff looked most excellent. This content hits hard against 4000 nits, and the following battle is just blinding HDR fest at clipping point.











When you test the scenes above yourself if you have them, compare the lightning bolts, and the fire, and the really bright things, you will see the v2 and v1 curves actually mush all this detail too much and its a bit too heavy handed, the v3 curves will allow you to see a more subtle highlight variation, detail INSIDE the fire etc.

Hell, maybe with content that goes over 1000 nits, but doesn't quite slam near 4000, you will want to use my V2 4000 nits curve, in shots where the content only reach 2000 nits for eg, that will indeed look brighter, but where it wont look good is that Batman vs Superman fire shot, which interestingly only goes up just over 1000 nits. So, I encourage testing here guys, hopefully some of you are confident enough now to try and compare a few curves, its all healthy exploration!
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post #4718 of 12005 Old 02-09-2018, 03:20 PM
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Well I saw you already uploaded the v3 curves so I took the liberty of installing them already. I overwrote the 1200 nit curve and installed the v3 4000 nit in Custom 3 so I can compare to v2.
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post #4719 of 12005 Old 02-09-2018, 03:21 PM
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Yes, the original JVC gamma D curve had much better blue sky shades in Revenant compared to Manni's v1v2 curve but of course Manni's black and shadow detail is much better. Hopefully Jav can come out with a new curve that can preserve this highlight detail. Good Job.
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post #4720 of 12005 Old 02-09-2018, 03:29 PM
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Yes, the original JVC gamma D curve had much better blue sky shades in Revenant compared to Manni's v1v2 curve but of course Manni's black and shadow detail is much better. Hopefully Jav can come out with a new curve that can preserve this highlight detail. Good Job.
Exactly!

Done.

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post #4721 of 12005 Old 02-09-2018, 03:35 PM
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The file are .CONF, I cant upload to my jvc. Thought it should be JGD format?
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post #4722 of 12005 Old 02-09-2018, 03:48 PM
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Yeah V3 is definitely better for me as I continue with Altered Carbon...tones down the insanely bright highlights and adds detail when I flip between V2 and V3. Awesome work Javs.

Random question...I just noticed that the Xbox One S does Atmos for Netflix whereas the UB900 does not. I couldn't find anything suggesting the Netflix video quality differed greatly between the two, but does it? And is it a worthwhile sacrifice if its minor to gain Atmos? I have a 7.2.4 system so I definitely like to take advantage when I can.
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post #4723 of 12005 Old 02-09-2018, 04:56 PM
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I go to avre tool menu to upload javs CONF gamma file but cant seem to do it. What am i missing?


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post #4724 of 12005 Old 02-09-2018, 05:25 PM
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[QUOTE=Javs;55664582]JAVS V3 CURVES

Alright guys, here are the v3 curves. I have made a zip file containing all three versions now for ease of use. You guys are free to compare them and pick your poison. The v3 curves are a little more radical which I will explain why.[B]

Do we have to adjust bbo again...lol I just want 2 to pick from when I watch movies which 2 do you recommend.. Please stop making curves for a year so I can enjoy these for a looooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo ooooooooooooooong time...
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post #4725 of 12005 Old 02-09-2018, 05:27 PM
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Alright guys, here are the v3 curves. I have made a zip file containing all three versions now for ease of use. You guys are free to compare them and pick your poison. The v3 curves are a little more radical which I will explain why.[B]

Do we have to adjust bbo again...lol I just want 2 to pick from when I watch movies which 2 do you recommend.. Please stop making curves for a year so I can enjoy these for a looooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo ooooooooooooooong time...
Your BBO is permanent as long as your calibration remains the same... no matter what curves I make, so long as they all target 0 nits black.
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post #4726 of 12005 Old 02-09-2018, 05:27 PM
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I like the detail in the middle picture
Same here....Middle pic by far..
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post #4727 of 12005 Old 02-09-2018, 05:30 PM
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Same here....Middle pic by far..

which curves are the one in the middle v3?
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post #4728 of 12005 Old 02-09-2018, 05:30 PM
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The file are .CONF, I cant upload to my jvc. Thought it should be JGD format?
Please use the Arve tool, you need to follow the guide in my sig.
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post #4729 of 12005 Old 02-09-2018, 05:30 PM
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which curves are the one in the middle v3?
Yes.
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post #4730 of 12005 Old 02-09-2018, 05:32 PM
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Yeah V3 is definitely better for me as I continue with Altered Carbon...tones down the insanely bright highlights and adds detail when I flip between V2 and V3. Awesome work Javs.

Random question...I just noticed that the Xbox One S does Atmos for Netflix whereas the UB900 does not. I couldn't find anything suggesting the Netflix video quality differed greatly between the two, but does it? And is it a worthwhile sacrifice if its minor to gain Atmos? I have a 7.2.4 system so I definitely like to take advantage when I can.
The Panasonic's excellent sharpening should work on the UB900, but if Atmos is important use the Xbox, I would take Atmos over an insanely small amount off sharpening.
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post #4731 of 12005 Old 02-09-2018, 06:44 PM
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V3 Curves - JVC Autocal Software Versions

Those of you who are too scared of the Arve Tool, which is by far the preferred method to use these curves, here is a version of the v3 curves which can be loaded using the JVC Autocal software into one of your custom Gamma slots. Obviously they are slightly lower resolution that the Arve tools curves which are 256 point rather than these being 12. But they should be pretty much the same otherwise.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/bz0j5saeok...sions.rar?dl=1

Byte, Aztar, hopefully you guys can take advantage of these, would be keen too hear your feedback.

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post #4732 of 12005 Old 02-09-2018, 06:48 PM
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Please use the Arve tool, you need to follow the guide in my sig.
I went into arve tool and select the below:
lf Load gamma curve from file [confname]
how do i enter confname from arve tool ? thanks
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post #4733 of 12005 Old 02-09-2018, 06:52 PM
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I went into arve tool and select the below:
lf Load gamma curve from file [confname]
how do i enter confname from arve tool ? thanks
Please see my post above, I have now provided the .jgd files you can install with the JVC software, you have not been reading my guide, so I am not really about to write it all over again sorry. The guide does give you step by step instructions on how to open the arve tool and load the files in:

Arve Tool Instructions

But in the interest of being easier for you, please just use the link in the post above
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post #4734 of 12005 Old 02-09-2018, 08:16 PM
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You’re killing me @Javs . I just finished installing and setting up v2 curves!

Kidding of course. We are all indebted to you for the time you have spent on this. Thanks!


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post #4735 of 12005 Old 02-09-2018, 08:21 PM
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The Panasonic's excellent sharpening should work on the UB900, but if Atmos is important use the Xbox, I would take Atmos over an insanely small amount off sharpening.
Being as I don't even use the sharpening functions (unless you mean something inherent to the UB900 that doesn't require being "set"), I guess there shouldn't be a functional difference in picture anyway. Thanks for the vote of confidence... The Atmos definitely improved the immersion.
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post #4736 of 12005 Old 02-09-2018, 08:27 PM
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Please see my post above, I have now provided the .jgd files you can install with the JVC software, you have not been reading my guide, so I am not really about to write it all over again sorry. The guide does give you step by step instructions on how to open the arve tool and load the files in:

Arve Tool Instructions

But in the interest of being easier for you, please just use the link in the post above
Thanks managed to get all working now.

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post #4737 of 12005 Old 02-09-2018, 08:38 PM
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Being as I don't even use the sharpening functions (unless you mean something inherent to the UB900 that doesn't require being "set"), I guess there shouldn't be a functional difference in picture anyway. Thanks for the vote of confidence... The Atmos definitely improved the immersion.
The Panasonic's sharpening can be found in the luminance sharpening screen when content is playing... Try High Freq on 3 and Medium freq on 1 or 0 (that one is heavy handed YMMV) and edge correction on 1. that provides a really good enhancement without doing anything bad IMO. I definitely set and forget those settings with the UB900.
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MadVR Settings | UHD Waveform Analysis | Arve Tool Instructions + V3 Javs Curves
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post #4738 of 12005 Old 02-09-2018, 08:40 PM
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Originally Posted by rprice54 View Post
You’re killing me @Javs . I just finished installing and setting up v2 curves!

Kidding of course. We are all indebted to you for the time you have spent on this. Thanks!
No probs!

Good thing is your bbo stays the same, so it should be mere seconds to install the new curves.

JVC X9500 (RS620) | 120" 16:9 | Marantz AV7702 MkII | Emotiva XPA-7 | DIY Modular Towers | DIY TPL-150 Surrounds | DIY Atmos | DIY 18" Subs
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MadVR Settings | UHD Waveform Analysis | Arve Tool Instructions + V3 Javs Curves
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post #4739 of 12005 Old 02-09-2018, 09:04 PM
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Originally Posted by Javs View Post
The Panasonic's sharpening can be found in the luminance sharpening screen when content is playing... Try High Freq on 3 and Medium freq on 1 or 0 (that one is heavy handed YMMV) and edge correction on 1. that provides a really good enhancement without doing anything bad IMO. I definitely set and forget those settings with the UB900.
Oh great now the decision will be even harder!

But this should be great for discs either way, thanks. No matter how much I read all the various threads for my equipment I still miss stuff like this.
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post #4740 of 12005 Old 02-09-2018, 10:02 PM - Thread Starter
 
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V3 Curves - JVC Autocal Software Versions

Those of you who are too scared of the Arve Tool, which is by far the preferred method to use these curves, here is a version of the v3 curves which can be loaded using the JVC Autocal software into one of your custom Gamma slots. Obviously they are slightly lower resolution that the Arve tools curves which are 256 point rather than these being 12. But they should be pretty much the same otherwise.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/bz0j5saeok...sions.rar?dl=1

Byte, Aztar, hopefully you guys can take advantage of these, would be keen too hear your feedback.
Thanks Javs... I will eventually.

For now, while I await my replacement x990, I have been focused on trying to offer some sound HDR setups for those who will not install curves, will not buy the oppo 203 or the lumagen, and will not switch to a HTPC with MadVR.

I know there are many projector owners who fit this description and I would like to have some HDR setups that help them get well beyond the factory ST2084 (0,0,0) settings, even though any onboard ST2084 changes will be a compromise compared to digging deeper into those other alternatives.

Until recently, I had been going strictly by eye, which is compromised due to the time to re-sync when switching to make visual comparisons. Now that I am able to use a waveform to map the projected image, comparisons are much more scientific and exacting.

My only other delay, the HDR10 test patterns in digital form are not working properly with the oppo in HDR->SDR mode. I have ordered the test patterns on BD. Until then I only have UHD HDR movies to use for testing, with which I have been trying to use movie scenes with a nice range of luminance values to map and compare. I need to pick up the Mad Max disc to use for it's extreme highlight performance.

Thank you for your continued efforts exploring the best curve setups. You, Manni, Madshi, Kris and others are truly Mad Scientists.

Last edited by Bytehoven; 02-09-2018 at 10:11 PM.
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