Official JVC - 20LTD - RS640 (x990/x9900) - RS540 (X790/x7900) - Owners Thread - Page 175 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #5221 of 12241 Old 03-20-2018, 02:35 PM
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hey guys, sorry for posting probably in the wrong place, but just needed to ask something, one of the differences between the rs540/520 and the lower 440/420 series is that the 440/420 series dont have a p3 filter. i just dont really understand what exactly this means, does it mean the 440/420 series won't really do hdr well? or doesn't have a wide color gamut? what exactly does this mean and what implications will it have?

Thanks
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post #5222 of 12241 Old 03-20-2018, 02:56 PM
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Originally Posted by Bittermidget View Post
Will this one work?
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post #5223 of 12241 Old 03-20-2018, 03:05 PM
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Originally Posted by ajamils View Post
Will this one work?
I'll PM you so this doesn't take the JVC discussion off track.

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post #5224 of 12241 Old 03-20-2018, 03:18 PM
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Originally Posted by rprice54 View Post
How I setup my JVC RS540 as a beginner/newbie to the JVC world. This is basically a summary of what I’ve done to achieve a picture that I’m super happy with for SDR and HDR content. I’ve spent hundreds of hours on the autocal thread, older JVC threads, and this thread. I don’t claim to have created any of this, just summarizing for the sake of other newbies. I had two different Epson projectors before this one, and basically unpacked them, installed them, found the profile I liked most and dialed that in with the Spears and Munsil 2nd Edition disc. That’s my background before the JVC. It’s been a lot more work getting this dialed in but the end result is far superior. Out of the box THX mode was great for SDR. HDR took some work.
.......

Hope that helps.

Excellent info. Will come in handy when I get my 540 installed.
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post #5225 of 12241 Old 03-20-2018, 03:50 PM
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Originally Posted by Bittermidget View Post
Running direcly up through drywall ceiling cavity between joists and then down into projector mounted on a shelf. No plate connections, just the 1 foot port saver which is essentially their FE HDMI cable in a dongle form to allow a "less stressful" connection to the HDMI port.

If you haven't seen it, check out the HDMI cable test on Sound and Vision. They tested several brands at different resolutions/bits and lengths and provided pass or fail for each. Seemed like one of the few objective tests I've found.
I am not aware of a premium certified HDMI port saver. So adding one of these to your cable will probably lower it's bandwidth.
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post #5226 of 12241 Old 03-20-2018, 03:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sahil0909 View Post
hey guys, sorry for posting probably in the wrong place, but just needed to ask something, one of the differences between the rs540/520 and the lower 440/420 series is that the 440/420 series dont have a p3 filter. i just dont really understand what exactly this means, does it mean the 440/420 series won't really do hdr well? or doesn't have a wide color gamut? what exactly does this mean and what implications will it have?

Thanks
UHD BD has a color space that can extend out to DCI. The DCI P3 filter in the 5xx and 6xx series allows these two series projectors to do full spec. The 4xx series only does slightly wider than Rec709.
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post #5227 of 12241 Old 03-20-2018, 04:21 PM
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I'm having a hard time trying to decide between the RS540 and RS440.
I currently have a hd350 (9 years old !) that still works fine. Want to upgrade to enjoy some 4K/HDR Netflix shows and UHD BR later (and of course regular BR). And to be able to use the projector sometimes during the afternoon (have curtains, so it's not too bright but not a bat cave)
I have a 16/9 tensioned 100" 1.0 white screen.
I like great blacks and contrasts but I'm Ok if I don't have the best color accuracy (as long as it's good enough).
Street price difference between the 540 and 440 is $1k. So the big question , is it worth it ... will probably keep the new projector for a long time.
I can't see any demo/comparison of both projectors in my area (SF bay).
Thank you for any advice.
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post #5228 of 12241 Old 03-20-2018, 04:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Javs View Post

Have you measured with a meter the colour output while using tone mapping specifically?
It doesn't seem like the Integral is causing the PJ to do the tone mapping. It should be relaying what has already been tone-mapped.

My relevant settings: HD Fury Integral: Automix with HDR and BT2020 Flagged. Oppo 203: Beta 56-0124B Firmware, BT2020, Mode 2. JVC X990: User2, HDR, HDR 6500K, power gamma 2.4.
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post #5229 of 12241 Old 03-20-2018, 04:43 PM
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Originally Posted by Mike Garrett View Post
I am not aware of a premium certified HDMI port saver. So adding one of these to your cable will probably lower it's bandwidth.
Possibly. I don't have the equipment to test for bandwidth beyond playing 4K HDR discs and observing results on screen.

The BJC port saver is made using a very short FE cable, which is a premium certified HDMI cable (up to it's specified length). I do agree though that an additional female to male connection in the path could possibly reduce the maximum bandwidth of the entire run, or grenade it entirely if the connector fit is not robust. In most cases we can get creative with cable management and strain relief so we don't need these "port savers", but I figured I would try it just to see.

I have not run into any issues with 30 feet of "non-premium certified" BJC Series 1E with 4K60 HDR. Added the BJC port saver to that 30 foot cable and also had no issues. Depending on equipment, results may be different. Just figured I would share my test results with others.

I apologize for getting into HDMI cable discussions on the JVC forum.

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post #5230 of 12241 Old 03-20-2018, 05:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Garrett View Post
UHD BD has a color space that can extend out to DCI. The DCI P3 filter in the 5xx and 6xx series allows these two series projectors to do full spec. The 4xx series only does slightly wider than Rec709.
Thanks mike for the reply. Does this mean that even with a proector like the RS4500, where most people dont use the filter due to the brightness drop, does it mean that also with that projector most people are actually getting only slightly wider than rec 709?

and someone on the rs440 thread said that in a review it was indicated that the rs420 covered about 90% of p3. how could that be if it needs the filter to do p3?

Thanks again mike
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post #5231 of 12241 Old 03-20-2018, 05:04 PM
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Originally Posted by Scott-C View Post
Basic question for the JVC experts - sorry if it's been answered before, but I haven't had time to read this entire thread, yet.

I just took delivery last week of an RS640 and am in the early stages of testing/viewing. It's currently shelf-mounted, right-side up, high on a wall in the room behind the home theater (a few inches from the ceiling), firing through a porthole onto the screen in the home theater. The RS640's lens is roughly at the same height as the top of my screen.

With this placement, I of course have to use vertical lens shift to bring the image down onto the screen. Am I using so much lens shift that I am ending up viewing through the edge of the lens, and therefore sacrificing some sharpness that I would get from being closer to the lens center? From what I can gather, I don't think it would be a problem if I were doing a traditional ceiling mount (PJ inverted). I'm just not sure if it's an issue if the PJ is right-side up, as mine is. Given that the RS640 has 80% lens shift in both vertical directions, I'm hoping it makes no difference whether the PJ is mounted right-side up vs. inverted. But I'm not sure.

In the end, my placement options are somewhat limited...I just need to know, for piece of mind.

Thanks!
Mine is sitting right side up on a shelf. The feet of the projector are probably 8' off the ground. Chadb calibrated mine and never said a word about where it was sitting in relation to the level of work he was trying to accomplish.

I used to have mine center of lens to the screen, but it put it right above and behind my head. A little too noisy for me.

I am very pleased with how the picture looks mounted where it is and having been professionally calibrated.

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post #5232 of 12241 Old 03-20-2018, 05:12 PM
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Originally Posted by Jive Turkey View Post
Mine is sitting right side up on a shelf. The feet of the projector are probably 8' off the ground. Chadb calibrated mine and never said a word about where it was sitting in relation to the level of work he was trying to accomplish.

I used to have mine center of lens to the screen, but it put it right above and behind my head. A little too noisy for me.

I am very pleased with how the picture looks mounted where it is and having been professionally calibrated.
Mind posting a picture of the shelf? I am trying to do something similar instead of mounting it on the ceiling.

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post #5233 of 12241 Old 03-20-2018, 05:34 PM
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Originally Posted by Aztar35 View Post
It doesn't seem like the Integral is causing the PJ to do the tone mapping. It should be relaying what has already been tone-mapped.

My relevant settings: HD Fury Integral: Automix with HDR and BT2020 Flagged. Oppo 203: Beta 56-0124B Firmware, BT2020, Mode 2. JVC X990: User2, HDR, HDR 6500K, power gamma 2.4.
I am not sure what you mean by that?

Can you confirm you are reaching full saturations? Would you mind posting an image of the gamut and the targets you are hitting?

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post #5234 of 12241 Old 03-20-2018, 05:34 PM
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Originally Posted by ajamils View Post
Mind posting a picture of the shelf? I am trying to do something similar instead of mounting it on the ceiling.

Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk
I've cleaned up the cabling since this initial install.

And I have no idea why most of my pics post sideways, but they do. Right click and open in a new window works good.
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post #5235 of 12241 Old 03-20-2018, 08:09 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by woofer View Post
For the moment , stay with the "Beta" firmware.
Once the public version is installed, there is no way to regress, correct?

I wanted to reference two 203 observations i have made, which might contribute to what is being observed with tge color tracking.

1... when using the rm uhd white clipping 1 test pattern, i am observing some form of gamma processing which lowers the luminance values of the test pattern on the projected image. Switching between target ranges on the 203, briefly sends the proper values, but they quickly adjust lower.

I remade that white clipping pattern and made it smaller in the frame. At a certain size and less, the processing no longer happens, and the luminance value steps in the pattern remain constant, even when switching between target ranges on the 203.

This observation can be similarly demonstrated with the dynamic contrast test rm uhd pattern, when the background is at a 40% value or less.

2... I used the full screen rm uhd color bars ramp, and as others have observed, red and green fall short on the 203. Further, some of the primary and secondary colors exhibit a "curve" thru the luminance range. The curve is made worse with any hue or saturation changes to the individual colors. The curve is mostly on the top end, going in different directions, depending on the color.

When i reduce the size of the color bar ramp test pattern in the frame, like i did with the white clipping pattern, the color track peak values improve. Its still not as good as hdr, but it is better.

My conclusion... the 203, in order to accommodate bending the gamma curve on the top end, applies processing when the scene apl starts to move above 50%. Maybe the x990 is also doing something when switching quickly from a low to high luminance value, but what the 203 seems to be doing is different.

I have yet to try adjusting for extra color saturation other than on the x990. But i found setting the x990 master color = +10 gets me closer to red and green targets without noticeable artifacts on content.

Aside... i have been using an external camera connected to a waveform and vectorscope, as a better option than going by eye. This LIVE camera scope combo is by no means meant to replace the use of a calibration probe and software . However it does provide for better live source comparisons. As such, it has allowed me to use the combo to measure and map one source, and then overlay an alternate source, in order to make x990 setting adjustments. That is how i was able to arrive at the x990 hdr recommendations that are close to a few x990 203 hdr off bt2020 settings. As i have noted, the x990 on board hdr gamma controls are inadequate to get an accurate 2.4 gamma track. But my recommended settings are close, with the upper part of the curve bending out to the left of the 2.4 track. Certainly not ideal, but not a bad compromise until owners can move to the next level.

So, I'm watching the discussion here and on the 203 thread. I have been meaning to contact oppo tech support, but have busy.

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post #5236 of 12241 Old 03-20-2018, 08:12 PM
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Originally Posted by Jive Turkey View Post
I've cleaned up the cabling since this initial install.

And I have no idea why most of my pics post sideways, but they do. Right click and open in a new window works good.
Thanks a lot.

Pictures show up fine on my phone.

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post #5237 of 12241 Old 03-20-2018, 08:24 PM
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@Jive Turkey , thanks for the response. Are you pretty confident you are not at the lens edge?

@ajamils , for what it’s worth, here is the shelf I chose for my installation. Supports 100 lbs. I’m still finishing up the install but will post pics when done.

http://www.fullcompass.com/prod/1574...iABEgLgafD_BwE
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Thanks,

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post #5238 of 12241 Old 03-20-2018, 08:29 PM
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Do any of the custom curves out there fix the horrendous black crush the JVC's have in the native HDR modes?

Perfect example is at the beginning of IT where Will goes into the basement. There is so much information missing due to black crush its not even funny.

Here is a picture of what this scene should show in the shadow details. Run it on your JVC and let me know if you can see all the details or if most of it is crushed within all the black mess.

This is for UHD HDR 2160P only. As I'm sure the SDR blu ray version is just fine.
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post #5239 of 12241 Old 03-20-2018, 08:53 PM
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Originally Posted by Scott-C View Post
@Jive Turkey , thanks for the response. Are you pretty confident you are not at the lens edge?

@ajamils , for what it’s worth, here is the shelf I chose for my installation. Supports 100 lbs. I’m still finishing up the install but will post pics when done.

http://www.fullcompass.com/prod/1574...iABEgLgafD_BwE
Awesome! That's exactly what I've been looking for. Are you gonna install a safety harness? If so, which one because it doesn't look like the shelf comes with one?

Definitely post some pics of the finished install.
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post #5240 of 12241 Old 03-20-2018, 10:22 PM
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Originally Posted by Javs View Post
I am not sure what you mean by that?
I don't think the Integral is causing the X990 to do the tone-mapping. Besides, HDR is off in the Oppo. I didn't have time to check my settings tonight. I'll have to wait until later tomorrow.
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post #5241 of 12241 Old 03-20-2018, 10:24 PM
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Originally Posted by SOWK View Post
Do any of the custom curves out there fix the horrendous black crush the JVC's have in the native HDR modes?

Perfect example is at the beginning of IT where Will goes into the basement. There is so much information missing due to black crush its not even funny.

Here is a picture of what this scene should show in the shadow details. Run it on your JVC and let me know if you can see all the details or if most of it is crushed within all the black mess.

This is for UHD HDR 2160P only. As I'm sure the SDR blu ray version is just fine.
You are looking at that shot in log gamma, useless.

Make sure you set your blacks for bar 68 and you will see all the detail you are meant to see.

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post #5242 of 12241 Old 03-21-2018, 02:53 AM
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I do agree that should be all that is needed. But from my experience, the JVC's out of black Gamma to about 3% or level 90 is very poor in HDR(ST.2084) Gamma. It doesn't have such an issue while in SDR Gamma modes such as 2.2 or 2.4, so Blu rays on the JVC's have the correct shadow details on display.

Within all my testing on various HDR displays, all but the JVC's I've tested on can clearly show the details while in this scene, and many scenes throughout this movie and others that the JVC just turns into a black void.

Most other displays tend to show a significantly better out of black gamma up to 3% using the black clipping 1 test pattern as well though.

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post #5243 of 12241 Old 03-21-2018, 05:02 AM
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Originally Posted by SOWK View Post
I do agree that should be all that is needed. But from my experience, the JVC's out of black Gamma to about 3% or level 90 is very poor in HDR(ST.2084) Gamma. It doesn't have such an issue while in SDR Gamma modes such as 2.2 or 2.4, so Blu rays on the JVC's have the correct shadow details on display.

Within all my testing on various HDR displays, all but the JVC's I've tested on can clearly show the details while in this scene, and many scenes throughout this movie and others that the JVC just turns into a black void.

Most other displays tend to show a significantly better out of black gamma up to 3% using the black clipping 1 test pattern as well though.
Level 90!???

I can see bar 68 flashing in the HDR black clipping pattern with good gradations all the way up from there..

How much ambient light do you have in your room? Which HDR mode are you using? Curves? Built in ST2084 gamma? If so, pump Dark Level to the max and try again.

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post #5244 of 12241 Old 03-21-2018, 05:27 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Javs View Post
Level 90!???

I can see bar 68 flashing in the HDR black clipping pattern with good gradations all the way up from there..

How much ambient light do you have in your room? Which HDR mode are you using? Curves? Built in ST2084 gamma? If so, pump Dark Level to the max and try again.
Im using the default ST2048 with Dark Level +7 and its still difficult to see good gradation differences from 68 to 90. I have zero ambient light. HDR Color Profile.

Thats why I am asking if the custom curves out there offer better 68-90 gradations basically.

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post #5245 of 12241 Old 03-21-2018, 05:28 AM
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Im using the default ST2048 with Dark Level +7 and its still difficult to see good gradation differences from 68 to 90. I have zero ambient light. HDR Color Profile.

Thats why I am asking if the custom curves out there offer better 68-90 gradations basically.
Well then yes absolutely. Try a custom curve.

You should also be able to use the brightness control a little.

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post #5246 of 12241 Old 03-21-2018, 05:45 AM
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Well then yes absolutely. Try a custom curve.

You should also be able to use the brightness control a little.
If I use black clipping 2 test pattern I can see 68 and up with ease.

But I am using black clipping 1 test pattern as that is more representative of most low apl scenes in most movies.

68-90 have little gradation while all the steps on the bottom row are clearly defined.

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post #5247 of 12241 Old 03-21-2018, 05:48 AM
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@Jive Turkey , thanks for the response. Are you pretty confident you are not at the lens edge?

@ajamils , for what it’s worth, here is the shelf I chose for my installation. Supports 100 lbs. I’m still finishing up the install but will post pics when done.

http://www.fullcompass.com/prod/1574...iABEgLgafD_BwE
I am using a good amount of lens shift. That's my point actually; Chadb had no issue with it and dialed it in sharp. Maybe I've got one of those "good lenses", but more than likely just getting good performance none the less.

The stand you see is where the projector was prior.
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post #5248 of 12241 Old 03-21-2018, 06:01 AM
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If I use black clipping 2 test pattern I can see 68 and up with ease.

But I am using black clipping 1 test pattern as that is more representative of most low apl scenes in most movies.

68-90 have little gradation while all the steps on the bottom row are clearly defined.
That is exactly how it is supposed to look. HDR is not supposed to jump out of black. The steps are far more slight and gradual than the SDR black clipping patterns since there is now 800-900 steps.

Regardless you can tweak it further with custom curves if you still take issue with it. The display is doing nothing wrong through.

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post #5249 of 12241 Old 03-21-2018, 08:42 AM
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Mine is sitting right side up on a shelf. The feet of the projector are probably 8' off the ground. Chadb calibrated mine and never said a word about where it was sitting in relation to the level of work he was trying to accomplish.
No question, Chad would have probably told you if you would be better off with projector at a different height/location..
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post #5250 of 12241 Old 03-21-2018, 08:51 AM
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No question, Chad would have probably told you if you would be better off with projector at a different height/location..
And I had both discussed it and sent photos of it's location with him weeks before he came in for calibration. All he said was "give me a ladder to access it".

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