Official JVC - 20LTD - RS640 (x990/x9900) - RS540 (X790/x7900) - Owners Thread - Page 270 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #8071 of 12209 Old 08-20-2018, 01:53 PM
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Help with Xbox One X

Guys I could really use some help. I just purchased this x990x projector. I never been much for messing with all the settings and things since normally I think picture looks pretty good. It's hard to tell from these pictures but the picture is very white and washed out in HDR from my Xbox One X. I changes the settings in game to adjust that white and brightness settings with the sliders but still doesn't look good.

Any help would be great! Also if need pictures of any other settings let me know.
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post #8072 of 12209 Old 08-20-2018, 02:17 PM
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Originally Posted by rmilyard View Post
Guys I could really use some help. I just purchased this x990x projector. I never been much for messing with all the settings and things since normally I think picture looks pretty good. It's hard to tell from these pictures but the picture is very white and washed out in HDR from my Xbox One X. I changes the settings in game to adjust that white and brightness settings with the sliders but still doesn't look good.

Any help would be great! Also if need pictures of any other settings let me know.
I see that you have the projector set to HDR but you have a Custom Gamma. Do you have Custom Curves loaded?
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post #8073 of 12209 Old 08-20-2018, 02:22 PM
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Originally Posted by coxy2416 View Post
I see that you have the projector set to HDR but you have a Custom Gamma. Do you have Custom Curves loaded?
I believe not. I did the HDR settings from the first post in this thread and the SDR also/
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post #8074 of 12209 Old 08-20-2018, 02:22 PM
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Originally Posted by rmilyard View Post
Guys I could really use some help. I just purchased this x990x projector. I never been much for messing with all the settings and things since normally I think picture looks pretty good. It's hard to tell from these pictures but the picture is very white and washed out in HDR from my Xbox One X. I changes the settings in game to adjust that white and brightness settings with the sliders but still doesn't look good.

Any help would be great! Also if need pictures of any other settings let me know.
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I see that you have the projector set to HDR but you have a Custom Gamma. Do you have Custom Curves loaded?
Assuming you have a custom curve loaded, make sure the Correction Value is set to Custom.
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post #8075 of 12209 Old 08-20-2018, 02:27 PM
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Originally Posted by rmilyard View Post
I believe not. I did the HDR settings from the first post in this thread and the SDR also/
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Originally Posted by Dominic Chan View Post
Assuming you have a custom curve loaded, make sure the Correction Value is set to Custom.
If you do not have a custom curve loaded then I believe that Gamma setting should be set to the default which is ST.2084

My guess is this is what is causing your issue. Unfortunately they default gamma is terrible and will give you a very dark picture and you will are best served to learn how to load a custom curve. It is literally a night and day difference.
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post #8076 of 12209 Old 08-20-2018, 02:33 PM
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Originally Posted by coxy2416 View Post
If you do not have a custom curve loaded then I believe that Gamma setting should be set to the default which is ST.2084

My guess is this is what is causing your issue. Unfortunately they default gamma is terrible and will give you a very dark picture and you will are best served to learn how to load a custom curve. It is literally a night and day difference.
I would love to learn more about it. I am guessing projector needs be on network to load them? I need to fix the ethernet cable. Also since I don't have any extra calibration equipment is there something pretty standard wise that might help out?

Sorry for noob questions but never had projector like this one before and a lot of learning still with it.
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post #8077 of 12209 Old 08-20-2018, 02:39 PM
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Originally Posted by rmilyard View Post
I would love to learn more about it. I am guessing projector needs be on network to load them? I need to fix the ethernet cable. Also since I don't have any extra calibration equipment is there something pretty standard wise that might help out?

Sorry for noob questions but never had projector like this one before and a lot of learning still with it.
Yes you will have to have your projector on the network to load them. For me I have a modem with 4 ethernet ports in the back of which one is hooked up to my desktop computer and the other is hooked up to the projector. This has worked really well for me.

There is no calibration equipment needed, just some software and custom curves that forum members have created. Javs has some curves and so does Dominic who are forum members and if you check their signatures you will be able to find the curves they have created.

Here is where I started - check out this post:

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/24-di...l#post55203652

Also Check out this Post:

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/24-di...l#post56395926

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post #8078 of 12209 Old 08-20-2018, 03:36 PM
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I believe not. I did the HDR settings from the first post in this thread and the SDR also/
If you did the HDR settings from the first post, then the gamma setting should be ST.2084, not Custom.
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post #8079 of 12209 Old 08-20-2018, 06:42 PM
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I thought I did, but when JVC came by to see me and we checked settings, my HDR mode did not have LL on, only my SDR mode. I did turn LL on, but had been using it with LL off for HDR.
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Who knows then. Will be really interesting to see what @BobDyl thinks when he gets his unit up and running, as he's clearly experienced the errant ways before.

I don't know how frequently it happens on the 520; that might be a significant difference (perhaps it happens much less on the 540, or not at all for some folk). On my unit I didn't manage to work out how to trigger it, it just happened occasionally.

I have a new unit on the way to me in a couple of days time to sort out my grinding lamp iris, fingers crossed I won't see any CMD oddness and I'll have a quieter eShift
Guys, thank you for your help.

The unit is installed. Very happy to have a PJ back in the house. After a quick and dirty calibration it looks like a good unit. Good focus and convergence, no eshift noise issues. Have stepped back off the ledge just being reminded how good the native contrast is on the JVC - it's very very good. I'll test out the CMD issue with LL off for a few days and report back. I'm not set up for any instrumented tests but will give some layman's "seat of the pants" impressions.

[Bobof, something just occurred to me. My understanding is that the phantom CMD issue only happens with 24p sources, so an AppleTV at 30 or 60Hz for example will not trigger this issue unless "match rate" is selected. Only playing physical media in the Oppo on source direct triggered it. You might already be aware of this but it was something that made the bug seem sporadic to me, when in fact it was consistent.]
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Last edited by BobDyl; 08-20-2018 at 06:47 PM.
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post #8080 of 12209 Old 08-20-2018, 06:55 PM - Thread Starter
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... I think my droop has now stopped on my JVC at 600hrs. which is good... for the next owner lol.
You talking 'bought yo 9500?

I'm havin' d ja vu all over again.

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post #8081 of 12209 Old 08-20-2018, 07:05 PM
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So I set it to Manual and it stopped doing it. So it is definitely that setting. The issue is that the transition is not natural feeling. It is a really noticeable drop in brightness and there is a delay. So a darker scene happens in the movie and then 1-2 seconds later, the brightness of the screen drops significantly. The transition is so large that it causes my eyes to have to refocus the image. Then when it becomes brighter, it takes 1-3 seconds to increase the brightness again, causing my eyes to have to refocus again. Is this a possible issue with my lens? Or is it working as intended and just not something I should keep turned on?
If you're going from full bright to very dark instantly it can take 1-2 secs for the iris to catch up. It's not instant, and its not defective. If you're going from mildly bright to sort of dark, it shouldn't be that noticeable.

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post #8082 of 12209 Old 08-20-2018, 07:07 PM
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This. Just. Sucks. Fidelity to the source has to be a primary design goal for JVC. How can they screw this up so badly? All I want is CMD completely off and it turns out it can't be done: it just turns itself on again or ghosts the image when on LL.

Seriously, JVC!?
I wonder what causes this. I never have this problem. I keep LL on all the time and CMD is off before enabling LL.

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post #8083 of 12209 Old 08-20-2018, 07:34 PM
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Originally Posted by br0d0 View Post
Latest update; the Sales and Service Coordinator at JVC Australia was ill all last week so could only catch up with his email today. After seeing emails from the service centre he then has to contact JVC Japan to get a final decision on whether or not the projector can be replaced. Unfortunately they're on summer holidays in Japan so he won't receive any word on it until next week. That'll be over a month.
HAHA

Dude, I have heard that one before.

Its more like, 'oh we have ignored your emails for a week, and we will get on to it now.'
I've just been told that JVC Japan have approved repair of my projector. After it being at the service agent for a month it will take at least a month to fix. I'm furious with that outcome.
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post #8084 of 12209 Old 08-20-2018, 07:37 PM
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I've just been told that JVC Japan have approved repair of my projector. After it being at the service agent for a month it will take at least a month to fix. I'm furious with that outcome.
Sorry to hear that, hopefully you are back up and running in no time.

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post #8085 of 12209 Old 08-20-2018, 10:47 PM
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I've just been told that JVC Japan have approved repair of my projector. After it being at the service agent for a month it will take at least a month to fix. I'm furious with that outcome.
Sorry to hear that, hopefully you are back up and running in no time.
Thanks. Not so furious anymore. I've submitted a formal complaint letter and asked for a refund. If they don't refund my money I'll take it to the Office of Fair Trading or Consumer Affairs and see what happens. Might as well.

That 4 week figure was Peter-speak. The service agent told me 6 weeks but they haven't even opened it up to determine which iris it is.

By all means, JVC, move at a glacial pace.
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post #8086 of 12209 Old 08-20-2018, 11:06 PM - Thread Starter
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I've just been told that JVC Japan have approved repair of my projector. After it being at the service agent for a month it will take at least a month to fix. I'm furious with that outcome.
hopefully that's the worst case scenario estimate, and everything will go much faster. We can hope

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post #8087 of 12209 Old 08-20-2018, 11:55 PM
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Originally Posted by BobDyl View Post
Guys, thank you for your help.

The unit is installed. Very happy to have a PJ back in the house. After a quick and dirty calibration it looks like a good unit. Good focus and convergence, no eshift noise issues. Have stepped back off the ledge just being reminded how good the native contrast is on the JVC - it's very very good. I'll test out the CMD issue with LL off for a few days and report back. I'm not set up for any instrumented tests but will give some layman's "seat of the pants" impressions.

[Bobof, something just occurred to me. My understanding is that the phantom CMD issue only happens with 24p sources, so an AppleTV at 30 or 60Hz for example will not trigger this issue unless "match rate" is selected. Only playing physical media in the Oppo on source direct triggered it. You might already be aware of this but it was something that made the bug seem sporadic to me, when in fact it was consistent.]
Glad it sounds like you've got a good one. My replacement 540 is due tomorrow.

Yes, I always have correct framerates set for everything (just the same way I can't stand the SMD SOE effect, I can't stand mangled cadences). Even then it doesn't happen all the time at 24p - just every so often you'd notice that all the judder had gone and the image was moving smoothly. Weird.

If it was happening all the time before at 24p then there is a marked difference as it definitely isn't all the time. I wonder if they didn't catch all the cases. Or maybe I'm just imagining it.
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post #8088 of 12209 Old 08-21-2018, 10:30 AM
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Glad it sounds like you've got a good one. My replacement 540 is due tomorrow.

Yes, I always have correct framerates set for everything (just the same way I can't stand the SMD SOE effect, I can't stand mangled cadences). Even then it doesn't happen all the time at 24p - just every so often you'd notice that all the judder had gone and the image was moving smoothly. Weird.

If it was happening all the time before at 24p then there is a marked difference as it definitely isn't all the time. I wonder if they didn't catch all the cases. Or maybe I'm just imagining it.
What are your sources and content that your seeing these issues with? You can drive yourself nuts looking for issues or attempting to recreate them. I used to have an Onkyo receiver that had a hard 24p issue that resulted in a frame being dropped about every 40s. The issue was because 24p is really 23.976 fps. Most newer equipment doesn't have this issue but if your having issues with things being all over the board I would not necessarily point the finger at the projector. It could be a compatibility issue between your sources and display device.

If your running ripped files to evaluate I wouldn't trust them. I would evaluate with a good UHD or BD player and UHD or BD disc since your less likely to run into encoding/decoding errors.

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post #8089 of 12209 Old 08-21-2018, 12:51 PM
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Originally Posted by Dominic Chan View Post
However, for the curves to behave accurately the "base gamma" of the projector has to be correct, and that's where Autocal comes into play.
Sorry but I am still a little hazy over "base gamma". What is "base gamma"? Is there just one base gamma curve for the projector that affects all other gamma curves?
I have installed Autocal V10 (need to buy the Spyder yet) and read the manual, but I do not see any reference to a master base gamma curve. I only see references to editing CUSTOM gamma curves on page 11, or on page 9, measuring the projectors gamma for a PARTICUAR Picture Mode where it references 2.2.

I have an ISF calibrator coming soon and I need to know if he is supposed to do this base calibration at the start of the calibration process using Autocal? (yes, I know that he should know). Or is there another way of setting base gamma if he doesn't use Autocal?

A simple explanation of using Autocal to set "base gamma" would be gratefully appreciated.
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post #8090 of 12209 Old 08-21-2018, 01:19 PM
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What are your sources and content that your seeing these issues with? You can drive yourself nuts looking for issues or attempting to recreate them. I used to have an Onkyo receiver that had a hard 24p issue that resulted in a frame being dropped about every 40s. The issue was because 24p is really 23.976 fps. Most newer equipment doesn't have this issue but if your having issues with things being all over the board I would not necessarily point the finger at the projector. It could be a compatibility issue between your sources and display device.

If your running ripped files to evaluate I wouldn't trust them. I would evaluate with a good UHD or BD player and UHD or BD disc since your less likely to run into encoding/decoding errors.
Thanks for the post. I'm aware of all those kinds of issues. When it was happening it was quite obviously SOE. Content was a 24p movie on Netflix on AppleTV4K, with refresh rate correctly set - The Hitman's Bodyguard I recall; when I saw it at the dealership it was on a Kaleidescape player playing Baby Driver HDR if I recall. Both times the projector has been confirmed to be receiving 24p, and the only way a projector receiving a 24p signal can have SOE-type motion is if it is processing within the projector, as 24p can never look like SOE without processing...

I think it is much too much of a coincidence that I saw this issue and it happens also to have been a known issue on the previous generation. As I say I'll be very happy if I'm either imagining it or it is unique to the unit I had. New unit arrives tomorrow but the room won't be done for a few weeks so I'm going to park it until then.
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post #8091 of 12209 Old 08-21-2018, 01:24 PM
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Bit of a pain you have to go through all that Bobof.

I remember my Sony HW40ES had discoloration in the middle of the screen. It really drove me nuts. So I traded it in like 2 or 3 times before I got a unit that had it LESS than the others. Wasn't gone completely, but was a lot better.

Had the same problem with my older TVs, the torches on my edge lit TV for instance. Drove me nuts.

When it comes to projectors, when you go into the high end, I think they're far better built than either TVs or cheaper projectors. This unit is a great, refined product.
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post #8092 of 12209 Old 08-21-2018, 01:48 PM
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Bit of a pain you have to go through all that Bobof.

I remember my Sony HW40ES had discoloration in the middle of the screen. It really drove me nuts. So I traded it in like 2 or 3 times before I got a unit that had it LESS than the others. Wasn't gone completely, but was a lot better.

Had the same problem with my older TVs, the torches on my edge lit TV for instance. Drove me nuts.

When it comes to projectors, when you go into the high end, I think they're far better built than either TVs or cheaper projectors. This unit is a great, refined product.
The unit is getting replaced for the mechanical failure of the lamp iris. Guess I'm lucky as @br0d0 has had a right run around just to get to the point of them saying they'll repair it for the same issue.

The SOE issue I've seen I'm pretty sure is a "feature" just not often noticed by folk given I've seen it on two units - one at a dealer demo day and on mine; I'm sure I'll see it occasionally on the new unit too if I don't leave it in Low Latency mode. I'll spend a little time trying to characterise it when I get set up again.

I think these are great units (I had an 3 and X30 before), picture quality is superb if you have a black room for it (it looks awesome in my batcave), but I do think JVC have crammed much too much into an old chassis now. I reckon a lot of the reason for the slow HDMI sync is legacy of getting all the various processors, FPGAs, etc on the boards sync'd up along with the eShift mechanism, and if I'm guessing the issues with CMD phantom enabling are something getting out of sync somewhere.

I have the schematic set for the old X3 series and even that was massively overcomplicated electronically for what it is (as anyone who's ever tried to get the ballast board out can attest I'm sure...lol)
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post #8093 of 12209 Old 08-21-2018, 01:54 PM
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Sorry but I am still a little hazy over "base gamma". What is "base gamma"? Is there just one base gamma curve for the projector that affects all other gamma curves?
I have installed Autocal V10 (need to buy the Spyder yet) and read the manual, but I do not see any reference to a master base gamma curve. I only see references to editing CUSTOM gamma curves on page 11, or on page 9, measuring the projectors gamma for a PARTICUAR Picture Mode where it references 2.2.

I have an ISF calibrator coming soon and I need to know if he is supposed to do this base calibration at the start of the calibration process using Autocal? (yes, I know that he should know). Or is there another way of setting base gamma if he doesn't use Autocal?

A simple explanation of using Autocal to set "base gamma" would be gratefully appreciated.
The “base gamma” is not an official name. AFAIK, it can only be calibrated by JVC autocal, not third party software such as CalMAN. Many ISF calibrators are not familiar with the JVC software.
Running JVC autocal gamma calibration with Normal gamma (as an example) not only calibrates that specific gamma, but all the other gammas (1.8, 1.9,...2.4) as well; that’s why I refer to it as “base gamma”.

You can find a lot of information on JVC autocal in this thread:
https://www.avsforum.com/forum/24-di...500-rs600.html

EDIT: The three custom gammas can also be calibrated the “usual way”, i.e. by adjusting the 12 points and measuring the video output. In that case they (but only those three) would be “independent” of the base gamma.

EDIT 2:
There were some previous posts that are related to the base gamma (referred to as the “internal EOTF”)
https://www.avsforum.com/forum/24-di...l#post55941738
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Last edited by Dominic Chan; 08-21-2018 at 05:11 PM.
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post #8094 of 12209 Old 08-21-2018, 02:02 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by bobof View Post
The unit is getting replaced for the mechanical failure of the lamp iris. Guess I'm lucky as @br0d0 has had a right run around just to get to the point of them saying they'll repair it for the same issue.
Congrats.
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post #8095 of 12209 Old 08-22-2018, 05:30 AM
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Originally Posted by Dominic Chan View Post
The “base gamma” is not an official name. AFAIK, it can only be calibrated by JVC autocal, not third party software such as CalMAN. Many ISF calibrators are not familiar with the JVC software.
Running JVC autocal gamma calibration with Normal gamma (as an example) not only calibrates that specific gamma, but all the other gammas (1.8, 1.9,...2.4) as well; that’s why I refer to it as “base gamma”.

You can find a lot of information on JVC autocal in this thread:
https://www.avsforum.com/forum/24-di...500-rs600.html

EDIT: The three custom gammas can also be calibrated the “usual way”, i.e. by adjusting the 12 points and measuring the video output. In that case they (but only those three) would be “independent” of the base gamma.

EDIT 2:
There were some previous posts that are related to the base gamma (referred to as the “internal EOTF”)
https://www.avsforum.com/forum/24-di...l#post55941738
So if I choose ANY of the JVC default gammas and calibrate it with Autocal, all other JVC default gammas will also be calibrated, correct? This also includes Javs 4K custom gammas that I uploaded, per your original comment, correct?
Thank you for explanation and the links, I will review them.
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post #8096 of 12209 Old 08-22-2018, 05:54 AM
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Originally Posted by Digione View Post
So if I choose ANY of the JVC default gammas and calibrate it with Autocal, all other JVC default gammas will also be calibrated, correct? This also includes Javs 4K custom gammas that I uploaded, per your original comment, correct?
Thank you for explanation and the links, I will review them.
That is true for the RSx00 projectors, which do not have built-in HDR profile. (However, note that you need separate calibrations for high/low power, CMD on/off, filter in/out).

On the RSx20, and presumably the RSx40 as well, the HDR profile requires its own calibration. I will post some previous calibration results when I get on the computer.

Last edited by Dominic Chan; 08-22-2018 at 05:58 AM.
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post #8097 of 12209 Old 08-22-2018, 07:26 AM
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Originally Posted by Dominic Chan View Post
That is true for the RSx00 projectors, which do not have built-in HDR profile. (However, note that you need separate calibrations for high/low power, CMD on/off, filter in/out).

On the RSx20, and presumably the RSx40 as well, the HDR profile requires its own calibration. I will post some previous calibration results when I get on the computer.
When you say HDR profile, are you talking about the projectors native HDR profile, or those custom HDR curves that you can load into the three custom gamma memories?

I own the RS640 that Javs curves have been loaded into the three custom gamma slots, are they affected by the "base gamma" calibration? I thought that they were based upon the discussions of projector "droop" that I read in this thread?


The ISF calibrator who is coming told me that he only adjusts the projectors native HDR gamma and that he does not use Autocal to do a base gamma update or load/edit any custom gamma files...is this a problem for me?

Again thank you for your help and the links. They made interesting reading.

Last edited by Digione; 08-22-2018 at 07:49 AM.
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post #8098 of 12209 Old 08-22-2018, 08:05 AM
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540 being installed as we speak, so I'll be looking at it over the next couple days and will follow up. To be honest, besides the CMD issue, my 520 was fantastic. Never had banding or any other issues, so maybe I got a good unit there. Does seem that quality varies a bit unit by unit.
That is correct, no two units are the same.

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Glad it sounds like you've got a good one. My replacement 540 is due tomorrow.
Finally some progress Hope she is good.
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post #8099 of 12209 Old 08-22-2018, 09:04 AM
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That is correct, no two units are the same.
It's a bit of an annoyance though the level of variance between them all. I work in test and measurement / pro audio equipment design and manufacture and this level of variance drives me up the wall. Having said that, they'd probably be twice the price if they tried to improve so perhaps it is the lesser of two evils.

My replacement arrived today; heart sank a little as one corner on the carton looked to have taken a bit of a blow (I guess this distributor doesn't believe in double boxing...); the poly inserts were OK though so I guess worse than it looked.

Seems to be a good one on a test firing; iris all works as it should and as a nice little bonus it appears to have an almost silent e-shift mechanism after a few minutes run time. Happy days.

@ScottAvery - did you get to the bottom of whether you thought yours was faulty or all operating OK?

@bobof UK, X7900, Fail 22/Jul/2018 @ 95hrs, Manuf 04/2018, SN 09340455, REPLACED
https://www.avsforum.com/forum/24-di...l#post56524896

@TKNice US, ?, Fail ?? @ a few hundred hrs, Manuf ?, SN ?, REPLACED
https://www.avsforum.com/forum/24-di...l#post56499926

@br0d0 Australia, X7900, Fail 14/Jul/2018 @ 52hrs, Manuf 01/2018, SN 06340278, at service centre
https://www.avsforum.com/forum/24-di...l#post56488090

@coxy2416 Canada, X7900, Fail 20/May/2018 @ 20hrs, Manuf 04/2018, SN 09340399, REPLACED
https://www.avsforum.com/forum/24-di...l#post56525152

@JJ7 USA, RS540, Fail 29/Dec/2017 @ 20hrs, Manuf Nov 2017, SN 162402xx, REPLACED
https://www.avsforum.com/forum/24-di...l#post55396160

@ScottAvery US, RS540, Fail 25/Jul/2018 @ 134hrs, Manuf ?, SN ?, with user still, perhaps no longer faulty?
https://www.avsforum.com/forum/24-di...l#post56540012
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post #8100 of 12209 Old 08-22-2018, 09:12 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Digione View Post
When you say HDR profile, are you talking about the projectors native HDR profile, or those custom HDR curves that you can load into the three custom gamma memories?
I was referring to Colour Profiles, not gamma curves.

Quote:
I own the RS640 that Javs curves have been loaded into the three custom gamma slots, are they affected by the "base gamma" calibration? I thought that they were based upon the discussions of projector "droop" that I read in this thread?
Yes, all gamma curves including custom curves are affected by the "base gamma".

Quote:
The ISF calibrator who is coming told me that he only adjusts the projectors native HDR gamma and that he does not use Autocal to do a base gamma update or load/edit any custom gamma files...is this a problem for me?
Curves generated with Arves Tool assume that the "base gamma" is flat. Any errors in the base gamma (such as gamma droop) will propagate to the final output.

On the other hand, when the curves are adjusted based on actual measurements (which include the effects of gamma droop), then the curve will be accurate in spite of the gamma droop. Nonetheless, personally I would still want the base gamma calibrated. Note that this has to be done before the ISF calibration, as otherwise it will totally throw off the expensive ISF calibration!

Note, however, the average user only has access to 3 custom curves which can be adjusted that way, so there is an advantage in having a flat base gamma as all the "standard" (non-custom) curves will also be accurate. I'm not sure if ISF calibrators have access to the standard curves in addition to the 3 custom curves, or how they actually adjust the native HDR curve.

EDIT: Here's a post that shows graphically the effects of gamma droop:
https://www.avsforum.com/forum/24-di...l#post56681756
The example uses gamma 2.2 as it’s easiest to see the effect numerically, but similar effects exist for the HDR curves.

Last edited by Dominic Chan; 08-22-2018 at 02:18 PM.
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