Official JVC - 20LTD - RS640 (x990/x9900) - RS540 (X790/x7900) - Owners Thread - Page 347 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #10381 of 12893 Old 01-19-2019, 02:42 PM
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From reading this thread, it's my understanding that the exisiting HDR color profiles, HDR & BT2020, are the same as the Rec-2020 no filter & filter profiles, respectively however, none of the existing SDR color profiles are equivalent to Rec-709 no filter & filter profiles.

Is this accurate?
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post #10382 of 12893 Old 01-19-2019, 02:53 PM
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Originally Posted by jwhart View Post
From reading this thread, it's my understanding that the exisiting HDR color profiles, HDR & BT2020, are the same as the Rec-2020 no filter & filter profiles, respectively however, none of the existing SDR color profiles are equivalent to Rec-709 no filter & filter profiles.

Is this accurate?
The custom profiles are actually initialized to Rec709 (no filter).

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post #10383 of 12893 Old 01-19-2019, 03:03 PM
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Originally Posted by Dominic Chan View Post
The custom profiles are actually initialized to Rec709 (no filter).
So, are you saying that the only color profile that would need to be uploaded is the Rec709 filter?
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post #10384 of 12893 Old 01-19-2019, 03:14 PM
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Originally Posted by jwhart View Post
So, are you saying that the only color profile that would need to be uploaded is the Rec709 filter?
Yes, but there’s no way to rename the custom profile to Rec709NF, so you might want to load that too.
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post #10385 of 12893 Old 01-19-2019, 03:14 PM
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Originally Posted by jwhart View Post
So, are you saying that the only color profile that would need to be uploaded is the Rec709 filter?


I have same question. I have uploaded the manni rec709nf profile but was experimenting the other day with “reference” and some other built in profiles and they triggered the Color filter. Not sure what the recommendation is either to use manni rec709nf or manni rec709f or one of the JVC preloaded ones.


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post #10386 of 12893 Old 01-19-2019, 03:21 PM
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Originally Posted by ScottAvery View Post
It was actually a guess because I'm not on my calibration laptop, but Javs built his standard curves for something in the 115 to 125 nit range. He has discussed it in this thread. the curve is a literal mapping of values, 1000 nit on the disk = 100 nit on the screen. 900 nit on the disk = 98 nit on the screen. .05 nit on the disk = .15 nit on the screen. etc. It's not linear, the top and bottom end roll off gently and then hard clip at black and whatever peak nits (1200/4000).

You can get an idea from the bm value that is listed when you load the curve in Arves, but the interaction of bm and bw values is relative, so bm may not be actual max brightness. I fall back on, "because he said so."



I'm just saying it is the first, obvious thing to try. You got improvement from the first curve set but it wasn't quite right, so try a brighter set more suited to your configuration.

It may help you to read more about how the curves work, in general. Lots to learn in the calibration threads.
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Black compensation is incorporated into the curve. No additional steps required.
Just so you guys know, I did just upload the 85-nit curves to the projector.

Wow. Major differences here in the shadows. No, this isn't a pro camera taking these quick shots, but these quite realistically show the difference in the shadows that I now see, - right above the vehicle.

Factory: ST.2084:



Javs v3 standard:



Javs 85-nit:




The factory curve is in my opinion completely unusable. Words simply can't express how bad HDR is out of the box. There are basically just no trees visible, here. And yes, these trees are meant to be seen. This isn't like some people wanting to resolve the camera guys in the shadows by cranking brightness. This is just having a usable scene (and I really do know the difference!).

The Javs v3 are better, but still not bright enough in the shadows in a few places. Certainly leagues ahead of the factory setup.

The 85-nit is much more in line with what I would expect it to look. I'll need to get some more movie time in now, but this is a significant improvement. I uploaded using the Autocal software - took just a minute or two.

Thank you all for the help. I know with further diving into this I could probably improve, but for now I'm much happier.
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Last edited by WilliamG; 01-19-2019 at 03:25 PM.
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post #10387 of 12893 Old 01-19-2019, 03:24 PM
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Originally Posted by WilliamG View Post
It’s getting more and more obvious to me that I cannot watch HDR on my RS-540 because it’s too dark. Am I missing something here? I’m using the custom gamma from Javs, and everything appears set correctly.

Bright scenes are really bright. But anything dark in the scene is almost completely devoid of detail. It’s especially easy to tell when I have the original BD and the UHD and do back-to-back comparisons.

Any thoughts?
A Panasonic ub820 with a couple ticks up on black tone should do the trick.

I use +1 or+2 on the dynamic slider, -1 on white tone, and +2 on black tone. Set the output to SDR 2020 (which still sends HDR, but makes your DI work).

Looks great on both dark and bright scenes.

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post #10388 of 12893 Old 01-19-2019, 03:26 PM
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Originally Posted by Erod View Post
A Panasonic ub820 with a couple ticks up on black tone should do the trick.

I use +1 or+2 on the dynamic slider, -1 on white tone, and +2 on black tone. Set the output to SDR 2020 (which still sends HDR, but makes your DI work).

Looks great on both dark and bright scenes.

A UB820 isn't going to solve all my issues. I have a mix of UHDs and digitally converted UHDs. Eventually my goal is to have all my UHDs converted, but that takes time.

In any case, I'm pretty happy now with new curves.
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post #10389 of 12893 Old 01-19-2019, 03:36 PM
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Originally Posted by WilliamG View Post
The factory curve is in my opinion completely unusable. Words simply can't express how bad HDR is out of the box. There are basically just no trees visible, here. And yes, these trees are meant to be seen. This isn't like some people wanting to resolve the camera guys in the shadows by cranking brightness. This is just having a usable scene (and I really do know the difference!).
The factory default assumes a certain screen size. You can get much better results by using the Picture Level, Dark Level, Bright Level settings based on the screen size etc, as I suggested previously. Use the Large Screen settings if you prefer bright pictures.

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Last edited by Dominic Chan; 01-21-2019 at 09:44 AM.
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post #10390 of 12893 Old 01-19-2019, 03:39 PM
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Originally Posted by Dominic Chan View Post
The factory default assumes a certain screen size. You can get much better results by using the Picture Level, Dark Level, Bright Level settings as I suggested previously. Use the Large Screen settings if you prefer bright pictures.
Yes, of course! But, again - out of the box the results should be usable, and they're not. Not at any brightness. Nobody's expecting perfection out of the box. The difference between my color-calibrated LCD monitors before and after is huge, but they're at least "usable" for any kinds of media.

In any case, thank you again for the help.
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post #10391 of 12893 Old 01-19-2019, 03:48 PM
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Originally Posted by WilliamG View Post
Yes, of course! But, again - out of the box the results should be usable, and they're not. Not at any brightness. Nobody's expecting perfection out of the box. The difference between my color-calibrated LCD monitors before and after is huge, but they're at least "usable" for any kinds of media.

In any case, thank you again for the help.
The luminance levels of direct view monitors are determined entirely by the monitor settings. With projectors the screen is unknown to the projector manufacturer; a 92" screen is twice as bright as a 130" screen, which makes a huge difference, especially for HDR. And other factors such as throw distance, screen gain can further affect the brightness.

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post #10392 of 12893 Old 01-19-2019, 03:50 PM
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Originally Posted by Dominic Chan View Post
The luminance levels of direct view monitors are determined entirely by the monitor settings. With projectors the screen is unknown to the projector manufacturer; a 92" screen is twice as bright as a 130" screen, which makes a huge difference, especially for HDR. And other factors such as throw distance, screen gain can further affect the brightness.
Absolutely. However, one would expect a usable image in a cave, at 13' throw, with a 1.0 gain 115" diagonal 16:9 screen. At ANY lamp setting. It's not. Aperture wide open, high lamp - still an utterly dreadful HDR image. Your argument implies that SOME brightness setting would fix it. It doesn't.

Again, my issue isn't brightness. With my setup, I'm still at -5, low lamp for HDR, and it's still blinding. The issue is gamma.
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post #10393 of 12893 Old 01-19-2019, 03:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ScottAvery View Post
It was actually a guess because I'm not on my calibration laptop, but Javs built his standard curves for something in the 115 to 125 nit range. He has discussed it in this thread. the curve is a literal mapping of values, 1000 nit on the disk = 100 nit on the screen. 900 nit on the disk = 98 nit on the screen. .05 nit on the disk = .15 nit on the screen. etc. It's not linear, the top and bottom end roll off gently and then hard clip at black and whatever peak nits (1200/4000).

You can get an idea from the bm value that is listed when you load the curve in Arves, but the interaction of bm and bw values is relative, so bm may not be actual max brightness. I fall back on, "because he said so."

I'm just saying it is the first, obvious thing to try. You got improvement from the first curve set but it wasn't quite right, so try a brighter set more suited to your configuration.

It may help you to read more about how the curves work, in general. Lots to learn in the calibration threads.

The V3/V2/V1 curves are all designed for 100 nits.

For an explanation and visual representation on what the curves are doing please see this post:

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/24-di...l#post55664582

The 85 nits curves are similar, just realistically targeted to 85 true nits, so they will be brighter in general obviously than for those running 100 nits setups. For those running 85 nits setups, it will actually look realistically closer to what the original V3 100 nits curves were meant to look like if viewed at 100 nits.

I view HDR at about 85 nits in low lamp -0, so if I am using my curves I am using those 85 nit curves.

The curves act like a rubber band if you dont watch at the designed peak nits target. If you are using 100 nit curves, but you only have 80 nits peak, you are actually viewing shadow details far dimmer than designed because the curve has to 'compress' or 'stretch' away from its intended values. What used to be 10 nits on a 100 nit display is now going to be closer to 8 nits, so you see how this can be a problem as you get REALLY dark scenes.

There is a scene in the Revanent which is only 6 nits on the disc, its really dark even on a proper bright HDR television, however, tone mapped this is closer to 1.5 real nits on a JVC because with most of these curves we are running something like a 4:1 ratio, where 100 nits is represented as 25 nits. So, there you see how this can become a problem. Even worse if as I said you are using 100 nits curves at only 80 nits, that 1.5 nits is now even lower!

My curves dont have black compensation built into them, if you want that, please try Dominic's curves. You will get far brighter shadow detail with his.
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post #10394 of 12893 Old 01-19-2019, 04:12 PM
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Thanks, Javs, for chiming in. I went with your 85-nit curves for now. Is there any downside to black compensation? If not, maybe it's better for me to use Dominic's 85-nit curves?
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post #10395 of 12893 Old 01-19-2019, 04:38 PM
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Originally Posted by bobof View Post
You're going to have to get it fixed or replaced. Your lamp iris is broken. Quite a lot of us have had this. If you provide more details I can add you to the below list for morbid curiosity sake.



Indeed, I will do it for him Current list below.

For what it is worth the more I use even my new, working unit, the more I think the iris drive logic is broken in several ways.
I've noticed a couple of times when switching to my first HDR title after power on the iris makes a quick "false move" - like it hits the end stop and comes back.

I believe (need to do some experiments) that if the unit powers off with the iris in HDR mode (at say iris 0) and then powers back on with SDR input (which would usually correspond to iris -9 for me) it doesn't always (maybe ever) move the lamp iris back to the correct -9 location for the corresponding SDR mode - it is like the projector doesn't know where the iris actually is. I think what then happens is you try to play HDR and it thinks it needs to drive the iris mech further to 0 (but it is already at 0!) and bounces off the end stop. The subsequent iris changes work fine.

Current list of users with failed irises:

@bobof UK, X7900, Fail 22/Jul/2018 @ 95hrs, Manuf 04/2018, SN 09340455, REPLACED
https://www.avsforum.com/forum/24-di...l#post56524896

@TKNice US, ?, Fail ?? @ a few hundred hrs, Manuf ?, SN ?, REPLACED
https://www.avsforum.com/forum/24-di...l#post56499926

@br0d0 Australia, X7900, Fail 14/Jul/2018 @ 52hrs, Manuf 01/2018, SN 06340278, REPAIRED
https://www.avsforum.com/forum/24-di...l#post56488090

@coxy2416 Canada, X790, Fail 20/May/2018 @ 20hrs, Manuf 04/2018, SN 09340399, REPLACED
https://www.avsforum.com/forum/24-di...l#post56525152

@JJ7 USA, RS540, Fail 29/Dec/2017 @ 20hrs, Manuf Nov 2017, SN 162402xx, REPLACED
https://www.avsforum.com/forum/24-di...l#post55396160

@ScottAvery US, RS540, Fail 25/Jul/2018 @ 134hrs, Manuf ?, SN ?, failure hasn't stuck hard like most
https://www.avsforum.com/forum/24-di...l#post56540012

@BdoUK , USA, RS540, Fail 21/Sept/2018 @ 350hrs, Manuf 01/2018, SN 06340302, Still with user, https://www.avsforum.com/forum/24-di...l#post56847266

@jackshi , ?, RS540, Fail @ 1week old, Manuf?, SN?, REPLACED, https://www.avsforum.com/forum/24-di...l#post56847666

@jwhart , USA, X990, hrs?, Manuf?, SN?, Outcome?, https://www.avsforum.com/forum/24-di...l#post57200020

@rlarsen462 , USA, X990, hrs?, Manuf?, SN?, Outcome?, https://www.avsforum.com/forum/24-di...l#post57257192
Count me in as another "stuck iris" victim. ChadB is over today to calibrate my RS640. Iris first stuck at -14 or -15. He was able to get it back to 0 but it appears to be stuck there now. ChadB said that my iris was noisier than average. I only have 90 hours on the projector, and the calibration session has been a waste.
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post #10396 of 12893 Old 01-19-2019, 04:39 PM
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Originally Posted by Rob_in_NorCal View Post
Count me in as another "stuck iris" victim. ChadB is over today to calibrate my RS640. Iris first stuck at -14 or -15. He was able to get it back to 0 but it appears to be stuck there now. ChadB said that my iris was noisier than average. I only have 90 hours on the projector, and the calibration session has been a waste.
That really, really sucks.
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post #10397 of 12893 Old 01-19-2019, 04:52 PM
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Originally Posted by WilliamG View Post
Thanks, Javs, for chiming in. I went with your 85-nit curves for now. Is there any downside to black compensation? If not, maybe it's better for me to use Dominic's 85-nit curves?
Give it a go and see for yourself. Put two similar curves in Custom 1/2 for eg, and just switch back and forth instantly between the two and you can compare.

It will be great on very dark scenes, but may slightly 'flatten' out the image depth on some other scenes. I did try it out once, but didn't stick with it.

I am not using curves at all anymore, I am using MadVR tone mapping, but that doesn't support all HDR sources, so I fall back to my 85 nit curves if I am using some other HDR source. But currently I dont have too much of an issue with dark scenes, there are some which are going to be trouble no matter what like that Revenant scene.

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post #10398 of 12893 Old 01-19-2019, 04:56 PM
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Originally Posted by Javs View Post
Give it a go and see for yourself. Put two similar curves in Custom 1/2 for eg, and just switch back and forth instantly between the two and you can compare.

It will be great on very dark scenes, but may slightly 'flatten' out the image depth on some other scenes. I did try it out once, but didn't stick with it.

I am not using curves at all anymore, I am using MadVR tone mapping, but that doesn't support all HDR sources, so I fall back to my 85 nit curves if I am using some other HDR source. But currently I dont have too much of an issue with dark scenes, there are some which are going to be trouble no matter what like that Revenant scene.
Right. Thank you. I can tell you that Skyscraper UHD is one hell of a projector killer. From the very opening scene.
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post #10399 of 12893 Old 01-19-2019, 10:02 PM - Thread Starter
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Antman and the Wasp - saturday movie club feature.

Great movie.

As i was watching, i took a moment. I have absolutely no reason to upgrade from this x990. The addition of the 820 and Chad's calibration, have resulted in experience i can not fault. Its an experience so totally immersive, i forget about any consideration of what i'm using to view the image. Night feels like night, daytime feels like daytime. Nothing feels out of place.

Is there something that can produce a marginally better image? I'm having a hard time finding a reason to care.

To my eshift 5 commrades, we have very good performance in these projectors. Don't let anyone convince you otherwise.



If you have an itch to throw some more $$$ at this hobby, invest in better sound, better seating, better room treatments, all before you worry about upgrading from one of these units.

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post #10400 of 12893 Old 01-19-2019, 10:32 PM
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Originally Posted by Rob_in_NorCal View Post
Count me in as another "stuck iris" victim. ChadB is over today to calibrate my RS640. Iris first stuck at -14 or -15. He was able to get it back to 0 but it appears to be stuck there now. ChadB said that my iris was noisier than average. I only have 90 hours on the projector, and the calibration session has been a waste.
Man Rob talk about bad timing! I was at least able to enjoy a few months with my Chad B calibrated RS540 before my iris went bad.

I'm about 350 hours into my replacement and will likely be waiting until the middle of the year before Chad can get back out to calibrate my projector. Every time the iris engages I hold my breath that it won't fail.

JVC should give you a repair vs. replace option. I ended up taking the replacement because they were still going to charge me to ship my unit back and that was going to be very cost prohibitive. However with you in NoCal it might make more sense to get a repair if Chad was able to complete his calibration work.
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post #10401 of 12893 Old 01-19-2019, 10:40 PM
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For those using an 820 in SDR2020, do you use standard SDR settings for lamp and iris? For example in normal SDR I run -8 lamp iris and low lamp power. However in HDR I run 0 and high lamp. Other than this I think I'm (mostly) clear on the usage of SDR2020.
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post #10402 of 12893 Old 01-19-2019, 10:47 PM
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Originally Posted by Bytehoven View Post
Ok, thats not good. What is your setup? Does it do this no matter the source?

What are your other settings. Run through all your settings.
My set up is Sony UBX700 to a marantz 7704 then Jtech HDMI wireless ( supports 4k/60Hz).
I have the basic settings
Low latency Off
Clear Motion Drive low
Motion enhance off
4k Eshift on
Graphic mode 4k
Enhance at 5
Smoothing and NR at 0
Screen adjust is off
Eco mode is off
Picture mode natural
Color profile standard
Color temp 6500k
Gamma normal
Contrast brightness color tint all 0
( yes it is not yet calibrated!)

Any suggestions appreciated

4K NUC HTPC/ JVC x990R / Marantz 7704/PassLabs 250.5/Benchmark Dac2D/ Sonus Faber Olympica III / Emotiva XPA-5( center/ back)/ RSC200 center/ SVS PB12+ ... What else do I need?
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post #10403 of 12893 Old 01-19-2019, 11:26 PM
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Originally Posted by Rob_in_NorCal View Post
Count me in as another "stuck iris" victim. ChadB is over today to calibrate my RS640. Iris first stuck at -14 or -15. He was able to get it back to 0 but it appears to be stuck there now. ChadB said that my iris was noisier than average. I only have 90 hours on the projector, and the calibration session has been a waste.
Wow sorry to hear this, how much of the calibration was done as BdoUK below may be on to something?

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Originally Posted by BdoUK View Post

JVC should give you a repair vs. replace option. I ended up taking the replacement because they were still going to charge me to ship my unit back and that was going to be very cost prohibitive. However with you in NoCal it might make more sense to get a repair if Chad was able to complete his calibration work.
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post #10404 of 12893 Old 01-20-2019, 12:31 AM
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Sorry to ask this if already posted, but where can you get the custom SLM281 plate for this projector? I have look everywhere online and can't seem to find it. I already have a chief RPA mount just need the plate.
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post #10405 of 12893 Old 01-20-2019, 12:38 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rob_in_NorCal View Post
Count me in as another "stuck iris" victim. ChadB is over today to calibrate my RS640. Iris first stuck at -14 or -15. He was able to get it back to 0 but it appears to be stuck there now. ChadB said that my iris was noisier than average. I only have 90 hours on the projector, and the calibration session has been a waste.
If your lamp iris is stuck, at least until you get it repaired, you can set iris to 0 and enable dynamic iris. There the lens iris will at least run giving you deep blacks.
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post #10406 of 12893 Old 01-20-2019, 04:03 AM
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The most important thing to do if your lamp iris borks is to set all the modes to iris zero (with or without DI per preference. Otherwise they get into a world of pain when input switches between HDR and SDR or 3D if you want to control your light level for HDR vs SDR you can always use high and low lamp, or engage the filter for SDR and leave it off for HDR (backwards to how you might usually set up the unit, but gets you out of a hole)

Even if you set iris 0 you will likely not have the right light level of light and will have to mess around with it back and forth - part of the problem appears to be the actual iris position is in disagreement with where the projector thinks it is.

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post #10407 of 12893 Old 01-20-2019, 07:53 AM
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Sorry for the noob question,

I read first post and see multiple gamma setting but not quite understand these value,

Picture Tone
Dark Level
Bright Level

Should I change on white only or all other colors at same value?
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post #10408 of 12893 Old 01-20-2019, 08:26 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by umjs78 View Post
Sorry for the noob question,

I read first post and see multiple gamma setting but not quite understand these value,

Picture Tone
Dark Level
Bright Level

Should I change on white only or all other colors at same value?
Just on white. I’m a noob too, so no worries. There a re a lot of us here.

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post #10409 of 12893 Old 01-20-2019, 09:00 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WilliamG View Post
Just so you guys know, I did just upload the 85-nit curves to the projector.

Wow. Major differences here in the shadows. No, this isn't a pro camera taking these quick shots, but these quite realistically show the difference in the shadows that I now see, - right above the vehicle.

Factory: ST.2084:



Javs v3 standard:



Javs 85-nit:




The factory curve is in my opinion completely unusable. Words simply can't express how bad HDR is out of the box. There are basically just no trees visible, here. And yes, these trees are meant to be seen. This isn't like some people wanting to resolve the camera guys in the shadows by cranking brightness. This is just having a usable scene (and I really do know the difference!).

The Javs v3 are better, but still not bright enough in the shadows in a few places. Certainly leagues ahead of the factory setup.

The 85-nit is much more in line with what I would expect it to look. I'll need to get some more movie time in now, but this is a significant improvement. I uploaded using the Autocal software - took just a minute or two.

Thank you all for the help. I know with further diving into this I could probably improve, but for now I'm much happier.
What movie is that? I would like to test against my settings.

Routh Family Theater - My Dedicated Home Theater Build - 7.1.4 Atmos Setup
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post #10410 of 12893 Old 01-20-2019, 09:13 AM
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What movie is that? I would like to test against my settings.
Skyscraper. About...I dunno...30 seconds in? Opening panning shot across one vehicle.
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