Official JVC - 20LTD - RS640 (x990/x9900) - RS540 (X790/x7900) - Owners Thread - Page 349 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #10441 of 12535 Old 01-20-2019, 07:15 PM
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Originally Posted by talon95 View Post
I seem to have a problem. I decided to try MadVR on my RS540 for tone mapping HDR. There seems to be a dramatic difference in some scenes. I'm trying to determine if this is to be expected or something is set up wrong on the projector when it tone maps.

What I see the most is darker scenes are much more washed out when letting the projector do the tone mapping (raised black floor like when the brightness is set to high). Brightness is set correctly though. I'm certain of it as I've checked it more than once with the correct black clipping pattern.

I did the comparison both by just changing MadVR settings to either tone map or pass HDR to the display. I also compared it to playing the same scene with my Nvidia Shield I normally use. Same result either way.

Is this to be expected? Is MadVR that much better or is there something else wrong with my config? I've tried it with Javs V3 curve and one of Dominic's.

Right now I'm restoring my original init file from the autocal to see if that makes a difference.
First, MadVR is MUCH better than custom curves, especially if you are using a recent version. I dont use my curves at all anymore, I am using MadVR as much as I can.

Second, no, something is up there, my curves are not much more washed out than MadVR at all if you are using the 85nit version, they shouldnt be anyway, they should be fairly similar, if anything MadVR will reveal a lot more low end shadow detail vs the curves... so you are not comparing like for like settings there it seems.

Cant really help much there. I would ask if you are 1000% sure you uploaded the curves properly?

Anyway, IMO, use MadVR if you can, its far superior since its actually dynamic tone mapping.

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post #10442 of 12535 Old 01-20-2019, 07:31 PM - Thread Starter
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Great day for football. Wow.

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post #10443 of 12535 Old 01-20-2019, 07:55 PM
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Originally Posted by Tom Riddle View Post
I will retake one tomorrow with my Cannon DSLR.
Righto. In terms of what you perceive, would you say my 85-nit is "close" to what you see?

In any case, you have a bit more going on in terms of config.

Cheers.
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post #10444 of 12535 Old 01-20-2019, 08:00 PM
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Originally Posted by WilliamG View Post
Righto. In terms of what you perceive, would you say my 85-nit is "close" to what you see?

In any case, you have a bit more going on in terms of config.

Cheers.
Yes, your 85 nit settings are very close to what I see. I have no black crush with excellent detailing and no elevated blacks. I originally watched Skyscraper with the default ST.2084 settings and all the scenes I took issue with were resolved.

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post #10445 of 12535 Old 01-20-2019, 08:01 PM
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Originally Posted by Tom Riddle View Post
Yes, your 85 nit settings are very close to what I see. I have no black crush with excellent detailing and no elevated blacks. I originally watched Skyscraper with the default ST.2084 settings and all the scenes I took issue with were resolved.
Groovy. Thank you.
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post #10446 of 12535 Old 01-20-2019, 10:26 PM
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Originally Posted by Javs View Post
First, MadVR is MUCH better than custom curves, especially if you are using a recent version. I dont use my curves at all anymore, I am using MadVR as much as I can.

Second, no, something is up there, my curves are not much more washed out than MadVR at all if you are using the 85nit version, they shouldnt be anyway, they should be fairly similar, if anything MadVR will reveal a lot more low end shadow detail vs the curves... so you are not comparing like for like settings there it seems.

Cant really help much there. I would ask if you are 1000% sure you uploaded the curves properly?

Anyway, IMO, use MadVR if you can, its far superior since its actually dynamic tone mapping.

Hi Javs


What MadVR settings are you using now?


Thanks
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post #10447 of 12535 Old 01-20-2019, 10:58 PM
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Originally Posted by apcreek View Post
Hi Javs


What MadVR settings are you using now?


Thanks

There is a link in my sig outlining the settings, however I have not, and will not update them again until all the new features are fully out of beta, so some wont apply anymore, I am sure most of you could navigate them though.

But as a start, I would just enter something like 300 into the target nits box and not bother with profiles, you should see a dramatic improvement off the bat compared to curves there. If its too bright, then raise the number, if its too dark, then lower the number... Simple.
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post #10448 of 12535 Old 01-21-2019, 02:49 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Javs View Post
First, MadVR is MUCH better than custom curves, especially if you are using a recent version. I dont use my curves at all anymore, I am using MadVR as much as I can.

Second, no, something is up there, my curves are not much more washed out than MadVR at all if you are using the 85nit version, they shouldnt be anyway, they should be fairly similar, if anything MadVR will reveal a lot more low end shadow detail vs the curves... so you are not comparing like for like settings there it seems.

Cant really help much there. I would ask if you are 1000% sure you uploaded the curves properly?

Anyway, IMO, use MadVR if you can, its far superior since its actually dynamic tone mapping.

You are correct. Like I said in my 2nd post on this, what I am seeing is a difference in how the auto iris works in an SDR mode vs. HDR on the RS540. At least on my unit, for HDR, auto1 and auto2 are almost identical. Auto1 does not perform the additional "enhancements". I wasn't aware of this. I assume all of them work this way, but I've never seen it noted anywhere.



That said, I have an extra PC that I think would work for MadVR if I swapped vid cards, so I may try it.
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post #10449 of 12535 Old 01-21-2019, 06:50 AM
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Hello there. 1 year ago I decided to install a cinema system in my house and bought a denon avr-x 4400. hdmi entries apple tv 4k, panasonic ub900 uhd bluray blayer, 4k satellite receiver, playstation pro plugged. HDMI outputs for LG 65B7V 4K OLED and JVC X790 4K projection device connected. If the hdmi outputs are only connected to jvc or only lg oled problem does not happen. If I connect two HDMI outputs, various problems occur. for example, when both hdmi outputs are full, I cannot get any source, amphithe and video when I turn on tv or projection. When I open the 2nd screen when I am not receiving an image, the display starts to appear on both screens. then when I close one of the screens, I can continue to take images. All HDMI cables are HDMI 2.0B and HDCD 2.2 compatible. between the amp and the projection I use fiberoptic hdmi cable. in the video I sent to you, the amplifier's HDMI outputs are both plugged in, but I can't get a picture on the television. When I open the projection, both projection and television are starting to appear. I would appreciate it if you could help. I've been working for 1 year. what do you think is the problem?
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post #10450 of 12535 Old 01-21-2019, 07:04 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dominic Chan View Post
The factory default assumes a certain screen size. You can get much better results by using the Picture Level, Dark Level, Bright Level settings as I suggested previously. Use the Large Screen settings if you prefer bright pictures.
Dominic are the new 4k projectors using adjustments to Picture Level, Dark Level, and Bright Level as the main way of tone mapping? So would a particular MaxFALL/MaxCLL tell the JVC tone mapping to select a particular combination of the above settings?
Would the RSX40 series also allow the same tone mapping ability using the settings adjustment just without the auto capabilities?
If that is the case I’m guessing the Panny 9000 would also be able to send its’ modified HDR projector setting to the JVC. Granted the manual setting of PL, DL, and BL would not be as convenient as the auto mode but using the limited nit range provided by the Panny 9000 could possibly mean a set once and leave it level setting that may well work ok.
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post #10451 of 12535 Old 01-21-2019, 07:21 AM
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Great day for football. Wow.
Not if you're a Saints fan.
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post #10452 of 12535 Old 01-21-2019, 08:02 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Clark Burk View Post
Dominic are the new 4k projectors using adjustments to Picture Level, Dark Level, and Bright Level as the main way of tone mapping? So would a particular MaxFALL/MaxCLL tell the JVC tone mapping to select a particular combination of the above settings?
Those controls are used for manual adjustments when automatic tone mapping is turned off. There no way to tell whether auto tone mapping is equivalent to setting a particular combination of those controls.

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Would the RSX40 series also allow the same tone mapping ability using the settings adjustment just without the auto capabilities?
If that is the case I’m guessing the Panny 9000 would also be able to send its’ modified HDR projector setting to the JVC. Granted the manual setting of PL, DL, and BL would not be as convenient as the auto mode but using the limited nit range provided by the Panny 9000 could possibly mean a set once and leave it level setting that may well work ok.
As a rule it's best to have tone mapping done in one place rather than by both the player and the projector, since one doesn't know what the other is doing. The Panasonic 9000 may be an exception if that mode is designed specifically for the new JVCs.
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post #10453 of 12535 Old 01-21-2019, 09:19 AM
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Since there is not a lot of chatter in the x770 forums I will ask here. Anyone compared Nvidia shield to Apple TV in terms of Netflix and other streaming apps for 4K HDR?


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post #10454 of 12535 Old 01-21-2019, 09:40 AM
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Since there is not a lot of chatter in the x770 forums I will ask here. Anyone compared Nvidia shield to Apple TV in terms of Netflix and other streaming apps for 4K HDR?
For streaming I have tried ATV4K, Nvidia Shield and Amazon Fire TV 4K and settled on the ATV 4K. It does everything well, other than the Kodi app which is much easier to set up on the other two platforms.
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post #10455 of 12535 Old 01-21-2019, 09:51 AM
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For streaming I have tried ATV4K, Nvidia Shield and Amazon Fire TV 4K and settled on the ATV 4K. It does everything well, other than the Kodi app which is much easier to set up on the other two platforms.


So no difference in 4K HDR and the metadata issue ATV4K has with Netflix?


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post #10456 of 12535 Old 01-21-2019, 10:15 AM
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So no difference in 4K HDR and the metadata issue ATV4K has with Netflix?
I reported about a year ago that the RSx00 projectors would periodically switch back to Gamma D with ATV 4K Dolby Vision, but now I use an HD Fury Linker with my RS500 (x750), so the metadata is not an issue. I don’t think the issue affects the RSx20 and RSx40, as they do not make use of the metadata other than switching to/from the HDR mode.

The other two players do not let you specify HDR/SDR for the user interface, so things don’t always look right. And SDR requires using BT2020 to avoid washed out colours.

The ATV4K can conver everything to SDR or HDR, thus eliminating the long HDMI handshaking when starting movies. It also handles subtitles much better.
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post #10457 of 12535 Old 01-21-2019, 11:00 AM
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post #10458 of 12535 Old 01-22-2019, 01:43 PM
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Hello there. 1 year ago I decided to install a cinema system in my house and bought a denon avr-x 4400. hdmi entries apple tv 4k, panasonic ub900 uhd bluray blayer, 4k satellite receiver, playstation pro plugged. HDMI outputs for LG 65B7V 4K OLED and JVC X790 4K projection device connected. If the hdmi outputs are only connected to jvc or only lg oled problem does not happen. If I connect two HDMI outputs, various problems occur. for example, when both hdmi outputs are full, I cannot get any source, amphithe and video when I turn on tv or projection. When I open the 2nd screen when I am not receiving an image, the display starts to appear on both screens. then when I close one of the screens, I can continue to take images. All HDMI cables are HDMI 2.0B and HDCD 2.2 compatible. between the amp and the projection I use fiberoptic hdmi cable. in the video I sent to you, the amplifier's HDMI outputs are both plugged in, but I can't get a picture on the television. When I open the projection, both projection and television are starting to appear. I would appreciate it if you could help. I've been working for 1 year. what do you think is the problem?
Not sure how you are trying to use it but I suspect the issue is a setting in your Denon 4400. It likely has a choice of mirroring output or using zone 2 output and you may have selected the wrong option for your intended use and are now getting conflicts on the HDCP copy protection.

On my system I find that there are issues with HDMI hand shaking that may require me to toggle the input selection to reattempt the handshake.
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post #10459 of 12535 Old 01-22-2019, 01:46 PM
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I recommend the Panasonic UB820 with both items in SDR2020 modes.
Is the Panasonic UB820 a step up from the sony UBP-X800?
Will i see a difference on my calibrated 540 with the panasonic versus the sony?
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post #10460 of 12535 Old 01-22-2019, 01:50 PM
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Is the Panasonic UB820 a step up from the sony UBP-X800?
Will i see a difference on my calibrated 540 with the panasonic versus the sony?
Yes, because of its internal HDR tone mapping it should be a very large step up from the sony.
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post #10461 of 12535 Old 01-22-2019, 02:31 PM
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Yes, because of its internal HDR tone mapping it should be a very large step up from the sony.
I tried reading up on the tone mapping stuff.
I got the impression that this feature allows the player to tone map the different HDR formats to SDR2020. Is this a SDR format (as the name suggests)?
Does that mean that we then shouldn't use the 540 in HDR mode?
Or will the projector still switch to HDR picture mode despite the tone mapping?
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post #10462 of 12535 Old 01-22-2019, 03:00 PM
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I tried reading up on the tone mapping stuff.
I got the impression that this feature allows the player to tone map the different HDR formats to SDR2020. Is this a SDR format (as the name suggests)?
Does that mean that we then shouldn't use the 540 in HDR mode?
Or will the projector still switch to HDR picture mode despite the tone mapping?
Projectors aren't bright enough to display the full HDR range of lumens. The HDR can be up to 4000 nits and the projector is lucky to put out even 100 nits. Therefore, when the projector receives an HDR signal it has to map the ranges it cant project into ones it can. This is what the internal HDR modes try to do. The tone mapping handles this outside the projector and in a far better way and sends the SDR result to the projector in a range it can project. It's still HDR but the projector doesn't think it is.

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post #10463 of 12535 Old 01-22-2019, 03:03 PM
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Originally Posted by bytebuster View Post
I tried reading up on the tone mapping stuff.
I got the impression that this feature allows the player to tone map the different HDR formats to SDR2020. Is this a SDR format (as the name suggests)?
Does that mean that we then shouldn't use the 540 in HDR mode?
Or will the projector still switch to HDR picture mode despite the tone mapping?
Don't get caught up on SDR versus HDR. Your projector can't really do HDR. Nobody's can.

The SDR2020 setting in the ub820 will strip the HDR metadata so the tone mapping can take affect. Then, use one of your User profiles and set it to bt.2020 with a 2.4 gamma.

It'll look very "HDR" to you, and you can use the dynamic range slider in the Optimizer in the ub820 to brighten the image if you like. I even lower the white tone by -1 and raise the black tone by +2 (experiment with this in dark and white scenes for your pj) to get more bright and dark detail.
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post #10464 of 12535 Old 01-22-2019, 04:09 PM
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Don't get caught up on SDR versus HDR. Your projector can't really do HDR. Nobody's can.

The SDR2020 setting in the ub820 will strip the HDR metadata so the tone mapping can take affect. Then, use one of your User profiles and set it to bt.2020 with a 2.4 gamma.

It'll look very "HDR" to you, and you can use the dynamic range slider in the Optimizer in the ub820 to brighten the image if you like. I even lower the white tone by -1 and raise the black tone by +2 (experiment with this in dark and white scenes for your pj) to get more bright and dark detail.
Thanks folks.
But what does that mean for my calibrated HDR picture profile (calibrated by Chad).
I know he saved a few gamma profiles to go with it.
If I switch to the panasonic 820, will the projector still detect this as HDR and use that picture profile or because the meta data has been stripped, the projector sees this as a SDR input.
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post #10465 of 12535 Old 01-22-2019, 04:13 PM
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Looking for an alternate streaming / player and thinking about madvr with HTPC as lots of people seem to think the tone mapping is quite impressive for our projectors. Has anyone used HTPC with a Netflix app? Or even better with iTunes for movies? Will both process HDR 4K Atmos in an HTPC environment?


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post #10466 of 12535 Old 01-22-2019, 04:32 PM
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Looking for an alternate streaming / player and thinking about madvr with HTPC as lots of people seem to think the tone mapping is quite impressive for our projectors. Has anyone used HTPC with a Netflix app? Or even better with iTunes for movies? Will both process HDR 4K Atmos in an HTPC ?
AFAIK, MadVR does not work with streaming applications.
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post #10467 of 12535 Old 01-22-2019, 04:47 PM
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Thanks folks.
But what does that mean for my calibrated HDR picture profile (calibrated by Chad).
I know he saved a few gamma profiles to go with it.
If I switch to the panasonic 820, will the projector still detect this as HDR and use that picture profile or because the meta data has been stripped, the projector sees this as a SDR input.



If you want to use his curves, output HDR from the Panny, not SDR2020. He was just here and I asked him to calibrate two HDR curves and one for SDR2020. In the limited amount of time we had to compare, we both preferred the SDR2020 mode, but not by leaps and bounds neccessarily.
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Originally Posted by Dominic Chan View Post
AFAIK, MadVR does not work with streaming applications.


I will do some research on my own but a quick search for madvr has some chatter on Netflix working. So I was hoping for someone who is currently using it to confirm before I go deeper.


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post #10469 of 12535 Old 01-22-2019, 10:03 PM
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Bytebuster,

If ChadB didn't do one for you with the Panny, Create a new Picture Mode(Name it Panny or something similar) and use something like this will get you close.

Clear Black = Off
Lamp Power = High
Lens Aperture = I would use what ChadB did with your HDR

Color Profile = BT.2020
Color Temp = HDR with 6500K
Gamma = Custom 2 with a correction value of 2.4

I will guess that ChadB did calibrate you enough to get you very close to what you need without his imported Gamma.

1) JVC RS540, Yamaha CX-A5100, Outlaw Audio 7700 & 7140, Wharfedale Jade 7's series speakers, RSL C34e(Atmos)
2) LG OLED65B6, Integra DRC-R1, Emotiva XPA9, Klipsch RP8000F, Klipsch RP404C, Klipsch RP500SA, Klipsch RP140D
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post #10470 of 12535 Old 01-23-2019, 07:08 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bytebuster View Post
Thanks folks.
But what does that mean for my calibrated HDR picture profile (calibrated by Chad).
I know he saved a few gamma profiles to go with it.
If I switch to the panasonic 820, will the projector still detect this as HDR and use that picture profile or because the meta data has been stripped, the projector sees this as a SDR input.
I have imported curves from Chad B as well. In bright scenes, it looks great. Better, in fact, than my SDR2020. But in dark scenes, the SDR2020 looks better.

Both have advantages, and you have to tweak until you get it right. The white and black tone adjustments help, along with the slider.

Ultimately, it's what we each prefer individually.

Video: JVC RS620/X9500 projector, Stewart ST130 screen, Panasonic ub820 UHD player
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