Official JVC - 20LTD - RS640 (x990/x9900) - RS540 (X790/x7900) - Owners Thread - Page 466 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #13951 of 14023 Old 06-30-2020, 06:58 AM
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Originally Posted by Vaugha View Post
Good day,

I am finally setting up to autocal my x790. Had the projector for about one year and it has 200 hours on the lamp, with what I would estimate as half/half split between low and high lamp modes. I am projecting onto a 135" Elite screen with 1.1 gain, with 18 feet of throw distance.

I did some rudimentary measurements to prepare in THX mode and in HDR mode. While I subjectively do not find the overall picture brightness lacking in any way, I obtained seemingly low measured results as follows:

SDR (THX), low lamp, aperture 0: 55 nits
HDR (filter on), low lamp, aperture 0: 32 nits
HDR (filter on), high lamp, aperture 0: 45 nits

Any suggestions on the best approach for HDR with my brightness values? My primary sources are UDP-205 and Apple TV 4k (set to output SDR at the moment). No additional video processing. I am just interested in the best possible reproduction with what I have available and have no interest in super high brightness. My wife and I found a 65" OLED offensive to watch in a darkened environment due to retina-piercing and headache inducing peak brightness.

Thanks in advance for any recommendations,
Vaugha
I’m surprised your nits are so low on high lamp, iris wide open. Even with the filter on, it should be around 80-100 nits. That doesn’t seem right. I don’t think you’d be able to have any watchable hdr with 45 nits.

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post #13952 of 14023 Old 06-30-2020, 07:38 AM
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Originally Posted by jbrinegar View Post
I’m surprised your nits are so low on high lamp, iris wide open. Even with the filter on, it should be around 80-100 nits. That doesn’t seem right. I don’t think you’d be able to have any watchable hdr with 45 nits.
Thanks for your comments. It is entirely possible that the low HDR value is caused by my finger trouble, although I was very particular with the details. I used an i1d3 placed about 3 feet from the screen, it was very carefully aimed at the centre of the screen making sure its shadow is outside of the field of view. I used Apple TV with LightSpace Connect to generate full screen patches and it was set to output HDR signal with 255/255/255 white patch for the HDR measurements.

As another note, from the get-go I thought that HDR content looked "dark" and somewhat oversaturated.
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post #13953 of 14023 Old 06-30-2020, 08:30 AM
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Originally Posted by jbrinegar View Post
I’m surprised your nits are so low on high lamp, iris wide open. Even with the filter on, it should be around 80-100 nits. That doesn’t seem right. I don’t think you’d be able to have any watchable hdr with 45 nits.
On a 135" screen with 1.1 gain and with the filter, it is a bit on the low side. From my notes, on the same screen size I was getting about 52nits at -4 with the filter on but surely I was not going to get to 80 even with at max aperture after calibration. Without calibration or cooler temps I can surely get higher of course.

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post #13954 of 14023 Old 06-30-2020, 09:17 AM
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On a 135" screen with 1.1 gain and with the filter, it is a bit on the low side. From my notes, on the same screen size I was getting about 52nits at -4 with the filter on but surely I was not going to get to 80 even with at max aperture after calibration. Without calibration or cooler temps I can surely get higher of course.
I have a 135" neve screen. Post calibration with jvc autocal and chromapure touch up I get:

SDR -10 iris/low lamp 15 FL

HDR iris wide open/high lamp/filter on 27 FL (roughly 92 nits).



Note: I dont use my 540 for HDR (I use my rs2000 instead because of the DTM).

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post #13955 of 14023 Old 06-30-2020, 09:58 AM
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Originally Posted by jbrinegar View Post
I have a 135" neve screen. Post calibration with jvc autocal and chromapure touch up I get:

SDR -10 iris/low lamp 15 FL

HDR iris wide open/high lamp/filter on 27 FL (roughly 92 nits).



Note: I dont use my 540 for HDR (I use my rs2000 instead because of the DTM).
I want THAT lamp!
I had tried 2 JVCs and unless my meter was wrong, I wasn't getting that unless it was uncalibrated where I could get more than that.
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post #13956 of 14023 Old 06-30-2020, 10:34 AM
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Originally Posted by Vaugha View Post
I did some rudimentary measurements to prepare in THX mode and in HDR mode. While I subjectively do not find the overall picture brightness lacking in any way, I obtained seemingly low measured results as follows:

SDR (THX), low lamp, aperture 0: 55 nits
HDR (filter on), low lamp, aperture 0: 32 nits
HDR (filter on), high lamp, aperture 0: 45 nits
I thought THX also uses the filter. Why is HDR so much dimmer than THX? What does Natural give you?

You can also check the High Bright Color Temp. The green will be very high, but you should be able to get close to what red or blue gives you (whichever is lower), when calibrated to D65.

The brightness is more commonly measured using 10% windowed patterns, although it does not make that big a difference.

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Last edited by Dominic Chan; 06-30-2020 at 10:40 AM.
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post #13957 of 14023 Old 06-30-2020, 11:28 AM
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Sounds like you’ve gone through the same hoops I did with my RS540. It’s true that if the DI is dialing they need to replace the entire lens assembly.

It’s a roll of the dice regarding lens quality but I really like what the DI does with my RS540 so it was worth the repair for me. I would say the replacement lens I got is maybe a little less sharp than the prior one, but not something I really notice when playing content from a close viewing position.


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I decided to bring it in for repairs cause I cannot stand it when it's not working like it should . I love the fades to black in my batcave and eventually it would piss me off not to have them.

Don't know yet if it will be covered again under warranty but I will report back here when I have news.

That's it man, game over man, game over!
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post #13958 of 14023 Old 06-30-2020, 01:03 PM
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Originally Posted by Dominic Chan View Post
I thought THX also uses the filter. Why is HDR so much dimmer than THX? What does Natural give you?

You can also check the High Bright Color Temp. The green will be very high, but you should be able to get close to what red or blue gives you (whichever is lower), when calibrated to D65.

The brightness is more commonly measured using 10% windowed patterns, although it does not make that big a difference.
Thanks very much to all for your feedback!

I have re-run the measurements, with exactly the same sensor setup but this time I used Calman. For source I simply displayed a pure full-white image from the Apple TV. I left the Apple TV in 4k SDR output mode (High RGB). I then used Natural mode per Dominic's suggestion above, first with Std and then with BT2020 colour profile. This time I got the following measurements that finally make sense:

NATURAL / STANDARD / LOW LAMP: 23.0 fL (78.9 nits)
NATURAL / STANDARD / HIGH LAMP: 31.7 fL (108.5 nits) (!!!)
NATURAL / BT2020 / LOW LAMP: 19.5 fL (66.6 nits)
NATURAL / BT2020 / HIGH LAMP: 28.7 fL (98.3 nits)

I cannot explain why my readings were so low before using the exact same setup. The only difference is I used THX mode and HDR mode as opposed to NATURAL mode suggested by Dominic. I will try to repeat my previous measurements to understand what happened. I'm sorry if I wasted anyone's time.

I would still like to understand if I need to do anything special for HDR, like loading custom gamma curve(s), or do I just simply run JVC autocal. I have the i1 Pro2 for color calibration once I am done with gamma.

Thank you,
Vaugha
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post #13959 of 14023 Old 06-30-2020, 01:33 PM
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Originally Posted by Vaugha View Post
Thanks very much to all for your feedback!

I have re-run the measurements, with exactly the same sensor setup but this time I used Calman. For source I simply displayed a pure full-white image from the Apple TV. I left the Apple TV in 4k SDR output mode (High RGB). I then used Natural mode per Dominic's suggestion above, first with Std and then with BT2020 colour profile. This time I got the following measurements that finally make sense:

NATURAL / STANDARD / LOW LAMP: 23.0 fL (78.9 nits)
NATURAL / STANDARD / HIGH LAMP: 31.7 fL (108.5 nits) (!!!)
NATURAL / BT2020 / LOW LAMP: 19.5 fL (66.6 nits)
NATURAL / BT2020 / HIGH LAMP: 28.7 fL (98.3 nits)

I cannot explain why my readings were so low before using the exact same setup. The only difference is I used THX mode and HDR mode as opposed to NATURAL mode suggested by Dominic. I will try to repeat my previous measurements to understand what happened. I'm sorry if I wasted anyone's time.

I would still like to understand if I need to do anything special for HDR, like loading custom gamma curve(s), or do I just simply run JVC autocal. I have the i1 Pro2 for color calibration once I am done with gamma.

Thank you,
Vaugha

Do you mind explaining how you did this exactly for the calibration? Because I am not getting even close to that with my RS540 with a 40 hour lamp. It always seems like calibration eats a lot of my light. I am using a Sekonic 858D to measure light so I hope it is accurate since it is expensive lol
My screen is 135" diag and 1.1 gain.

I do have to shift my image down a lot but not sure if that can affect light output that much.


Thanks for any help you can provide so I can figure out what is eating my light.

PS I used Autocal (spyder5 for gamma and i1 Display Pro for color)

Thank you all!

Last edited by Mono Mario; 06-30-2020 at 01:54 PM.
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post #13960 of 14023 Old 06-30-2020, 02:03 PM
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Originally Posted by Vaugha View Post
Thanks very much to all for your feedback!

I have re-run the measurements, with exactly the same sensor setup but this time I used Calman. For source I simply displayed a pure full-white image from the Apple TV. I left the Apple TV in 4k SDR output mode (High RGB). I then used Natural mode per Dominic's suggestion above, first with Std and then with BT2020 colour profile. This time I got the following measurements that finally make sense:

NATURAL / STANDARD / LOW LAMP: 23.0 fL (78.9 nits)
NATURAL / STANDARD / HIGH LAMP: 31.7 fL (108.5 nits) (!!!)
NATURAL / BT2020 / LOW LAMP: 19.5 fL (66.6 nits)
NATURAL / BT2020 / HIGH LAMP: 28.7 fL (98.3 nits)

I cannot explain why my readings were so low before using the exact same setup. The only difference is I used THX mode and HDR mode as opposed to NATURAL mode suggested by Dominic. I will try to repeat my previous measurements to understand what happened. I'm sorry if I wasted anyone's time.

I would still like to understand if I need to do anything special for HDR, like loading custom gamma curve(s), or do I just simply run JVC autocal. I have the i1 Pro2 for color calibration once I am done with gamma.

Thank you,
Vaugha
A couple of options for HDR with your 540:

These are from best to worst(IMO!!)

You could use Mad VR or buy lumagen for their dynamic tone mapping.

You could use your blu ray player to convert to sdr 2020. Panasonic ub420 or 820 works great. Oppo has an SDR 2020 mode too you could use, but its not as good as the panasonic. Just make sure you set your gamma to 2.2 or 2.4 on your JVC when you do.

You could use some custom curves. I have Dom's 80 nit curve on my 540, and it looks great. I used this before I got my rs2000 for HDR.

You could also just use the built in HDR curve and change different settings to make it look better.

Dom's signature has some incredibly useful links to help

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post #13961 of 14023 Old 06-30-2020, 02:22 PM
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Originally Posted by Mono Mario View Post
Do you mind explaining how you did this exactly for the calibration? Because I am not getting even close to that with my RS540 with a 40 hour lamp. It always seems like calibration eats a lot of my light. I am using a Sekonic 858D to measure light so I hope it is accurate since it is expensive lol
My screen is 135" diag and 1.1 gain.

I do have to shift my image down a lot but not sure if that can affect light output that much.


Thanks for any help you can provide so I can figure out what is eating my light.

PS I used Autocal (spyder5 for gamma and i1 Display Pro for color)

Thank you all!
As mentioned in my previous post, you can check the brightness using High Bright which is unaffected by autocal. This will confirm whether Color Autocal is indeed eating the light.
https://www.avsforum.com/forum/24-di...l#post59882912
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post #13962 of 14023 Old 06-30-2020, 02:37 PM
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Originally Posted by Dominic Chan View Post
As mentioned in my previous post, you can check the brightness using High Bright which is unaffected by autocal. This will confirm whether Color Autocal is indeed eating the light.
https://www.avsforum.com/forum/24-di...l#post59882912
Ok so I tried this with user 3 REC 2020 and Manual aperture at -4 (which is the aperture at which I did Autocal gamma and color corrections):

23FL (78.8 nits) with HIGH BRIGHT
16 FL (54.82 nits) with 6500, HDR (2 color profiles I tried).
That was at High Lamp.


So looks like indeed I did something that made Autocal mess up my light output? How should I go about correcting this?
Thank you!!!
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post #13963 of 14023 Old 06-30-2020, 03:11 PM
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Ok so I tried this with user 3 REC 2020 and Manual aperture at -4 (which is the aperture at which I did Autocal gamma and color corrections):

23FL (78.8 nits) with HIGH BRIGHT
16 FL (54.82 nits) with 6500, HDR (2 color profiles I tried).
That was at High Lamp.


So looks like indeed I did something that made Autocal mess up my light output? How should I go about correcting this?
Thank you!!!
Calibration always reduces the output as you’re cutting down green (which is the main contributor to the brightness). You need to look at the R/G/B components to see which is the lowest; e.g., if they are 120, 140, 115 respectively, then the best case you can get after calibration is 115 nits. You just want to make sure you don’t end up much lower than that.

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post #13964 of 14023 Old 06-30-2020, 03:37 PM
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Calibration always reduces the output as you’re cutting down green (which is the main contributor to the brightness). You need to look at the R/G/B components to see which is the lowest; e.g., if they are 120, 140, 115 respectively, then the best case you can get after calibration is 115 nits. You just want to make sure you don’t end up much lower than that.
Where do you see the output of RGB in values like that?
In any case, I think my lamp is NOT good because I remember on my previous JVC at 6500 and 5500 red was MUCH higher. In this one even at 5500 red output bars (when I look at it on DisplayCal to calibrate it), it shows very low so by the time I am done moving green and blue back to that red goes up, my light output is down the hill as well.
For example, I used High Bright and starting at 23FL and by time I was done making red match green and blue I was barely at 16-17fl.
Does not look normal to me but maybe I am missing something.
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post #13965 of 14023 Old 06-30-2020, 03:43 PM
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Where do you see the output of RGB in values like that?
I use HCFR which can display in xyY or RGB. If you use some other software, you can simply reduce R and B when using High Bright until you get D65, which is equivalent to get RGB all to the same level.

Quote:
In any case, I think my lamp is NOT good because I remember on my previous JVC at 6500 and 5500 red was MUCH higher. In this one even at 5500 red output bars (when I look at it on DisplayCal to calibrate it), it shows very low so by the time I am done moving green and blue back to that red goes up, my light output is down the hill as well.
For example, I used High Bright and starting at 23FL and by time I was done making red match green and blue I was barely at 16-17fl.
I guess you're already doing what I was suggesting. There's not much you can do about the light; what I was suggest only allows you to confirm that autocal is not eating the brightness beyond what the lamp needs. If the Color Temp at 6500K you're getting 16 FL (the same as adjusted High Bright) it would mean autocal is already doing the best it can.
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post #13966 of 14023 Old 06-30-2020, 03:59 PM
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I use HCFR which can display in xyY or RGB. If you use some other software, you can simply reduce R and B when using High Bright until you get D65, which is equivalent to get RGB all to the same level.


I guess you're already doing what I was suggesting. There's not much you can do about the light; what I was suggest only allows you to confirm that autocal is not eating the brightness beyond what the lamp needs. If the Color Temp at 6500K you're getting 16 FL (the same as adjusted High Bright) it would mean autocal is already doing the best it can.
Yep so Autocal is actually cool that it gets me there without effort. But I am concerned about this lamp because looks like other users are able to get a LOT more output calibrated than I can which seems to be related to my super weak red on this lamp. I guess I am not familar with lamp tech but it could it be just a bad lamp that is lacking that much red?
I could post a photo of Display cal or try to figure out HCFR to get a value of how bad red is compared to the other two.
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post #13967 of 14023 Old 06-30-2020, 04:15 PM
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I could post a photo of Display cal or try to figure out HCFR to get a value of how bad red is compared to the other two.
There’s no need. The fact that you get 23 FL with High Bright and 16 FL for D65 already shows that.
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post #13968 of 14023 Old 06-30-2020, 04:17 PM
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There’s no need. The fact that you get 23 FL with High Bright and 16 FL for D65 already shows that.
Do you think this indicates a bad lamp or is it actually normal to lose so much after calibration? Because the other users seem to get a lot more light calibrated based on previous posts I read.
Maybe I will calibrate to 7500 to get some light back and get used to it
Thanks!!

Last edited by Mono Mario; 06-30-2020 at 04:20 PM.
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post #13969 of 14023 Old 06-30-2020, 04:41 PM
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Do you think this indicates a bad lamp or is it actually normal to lose so much after calibration? Because the other users seem to get a lot more light calibrated based on previous posts I read.
Maybe I will calibrate to 7500 to get some light back and get used to it
Thanks!!
It’s certainly not common for a lamp to have such low levels of red, but I can’t say whether that makes it a “bad” lamp qualifying for a warranty replacement.
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post #13970 of 14023 Old 06-30-2020, 05:04 PM
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It’s certainly not common for a lamp to have such low levels of red, but I can’t say whether that makes it a “bad” lamp qualifying for a warranty replacement.
I understand.
Thank you for your help!
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post #13971 of 14023 Old 06-30-2020, 09:39 PM
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One more question, probably a dumb one, but I was playing with the custom curve using Arve tool to load yours and Javs but from what I can see this curves are intended for HDR passthrough as when I tried them on 4k that was using madvr dynamic tone mapping, it was all looking wrong. I couldnt try without the tone mapping due to the issue with madvr and latest Nvidia drivers (I will install an older driver tomorrow to test).
Anyways, just curious as I am learning how to use that tool slowly.

Thanks
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post #13972 of 14023 Old 07-01-2020, 01:00 AM
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Originally Posted by Mono Mario View Post
One more question, probably a dumb one, but I was playing with the custom curve using Arve tool to load yours and Javs but from what I can see this curves are intended for HDR passthrough as when I tried them on 4k that was using madvr dynamic tone mapping, it was all looking wrong. I couldnt try without the tone mapping due to the issue with madvr and latest Nvidia drivers (I will install an older driver tomorrow to test).
Anyways, just curious as I am learning how to use that tool slowly.

Thanks
Correct, you use the Arve curves with HDR signal. It's basically a custom HDR PQ curve.
I don't use MadVR but I think you need to set your projector in SDR mode, 2.4 gamma and BT.2020/HDR color profile, since the video is already tone mapped by MadVR.
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post #13973 of 14023 Old 07-01-2020, 08:40 AM
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Originally Posted by Mono Mario View Post
Do you mind explaining how you did this exactly for the calibration? Because I am not getting even close to that with my RS540 with a 40 hour lamp. It always seems like calibration eats a lot of my light.
My quoted numbers are uncalibrated values - I am just in the process of scoping things out before I dive into the calibration process.
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post #13974 of 14023 Old 07-01-2020, 08:45 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jbrinegar View Post
A couple of options for HDR with your 540:

These are from best to worst(IMO!!)

You could use Mad VR or buy lumagen for their dynamic tone mapping.

You could use your blu ray player to convert to sdr 2020. Panasonic ub420 or 820 works great. Oppo has an SDR 2020 mode too you could use, but its not as good as the panasonic. Just make sure you set your gamma to 2.2 or 2.4 on your JVC when you do.

You could use some custom curves. I have Dom's 80 nit curve on my 540, and it looks great. I used this before I got my rs2000 for HDR.

You could also just use the built in HDR curve and change different settings to make it look better.

Dom's signature has some incredibly useful links to help
Thanks very much for the clarifications!

Once I complete the auto-cal, I will experiment with the OPPO SDR2020 mode and perhaps also Dominic's 80 nit curve. The projector built-in curve (without any tweaks) just does not seem to produce great results.
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post #13975 of 14023 Old 07-02-2020, 08:00 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vaugha View Post
My quoted numbers are uncalibrated values - I am just in the process of scoping things out before I dive into the calibration process.
Please post your after calibration light output. I am intrigued to see how it compares to mine.
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post #13976 of 14023 Old 07-04-2020, 03:23 AM
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Originally Posted by Flash3d View Post
Just a follow up, picked up my PJ and they replaced the manual iris.
While it's a lot quieter (when changing manual iris setting) then the original, the problem is still there.

Found this on the UK forum: https://www.avforums.com/threads/jvc...#post-27676479

This is exactly what I am experiencing and this will probably needs the lens assembly being replaced, cause as I understand the DI is part of the lens.
Projecter was just 1 month out of the 2 year warranty but the first repair (manual iris) was approved under warranty by JVC, so I hope this one will also be under warranty.
Actually the original problem was not fixed so it should be warranty again, fingers crossed.

ps this will mean I get another lens? The current one is perfect so I hope the replacement will be good too.

Ps2 Or should I just disable the DI and enjoy my good lens? Choices...
Another follow up, projector has been repaired again and the lens assembly has been replaced.
According to the repair service it's a lens assembly from a used X7900 demo unit, sharpness is just a tad less sharp then my previous lens but the DI problem is resolved.

Really happy that everything is working like new and that both the repairs were done under warranty (PJ was 2 months out of the 2 year warranty).
Will enjoy it till the successor of the N7/RS2000 will come out, hopefully next year.

That's it man, game over man, game over!
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post #13977 of 14023 Old 07-04-2020, 05:59 AM
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Recently, problems with the dynamic iris returned to me (. I contacted JVC, and they will call from the service center on Monday ...
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post #13978 of 14023 Old 07-04-2020, 08:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by coxy2416 View Post
... I find MadVR's DTM does a really great job with the lower light and brighter scenes. It just makes those movies that seemed to dim or too bright just right... from what I can see at this moment in time I may just have a set it and forget it system for my HDR movies once I settle in on my ideal settings.

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Originally Posted by catav View Post
DI is working like day one. I use Auto 2. But, I don’t ever use HDR mode. Only madVR in SDR2020.
Quote:
Originally Posted by dvzzz View Post
I will keep experimenting with sending MadVR DTMed video to the proj, I am very keen to find the settings that are optimal.
@coxy2416 @catav @dvzzz and any others using madVR with the X790 / RS540. I've just made the switch over to "Team JVC" with the X790 and am looking forward to getting the projector installed this coming Monday!

I've been using my HTPC to tone map HDR to SDR for my soon-to-be-retired Epson 5030UB. I understand that I should now set up madVR to tone map HDR to SDR and set it to also output BT2020 instead of BT709. Can any of you provide me with some additional tips? What optimal settings on the JVC did each of you come to settle on? Thanks in advance!

Last edited by MidnightWatcher; 07-04-2020 at 10:01 PM.
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post #13979 of 14023 Old 07-04-2020, 09:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mono Mario View Post
Please post your after calibration light output. I am intrigued to see how it compares to mine.
It looks like after gamma and colour SDR calibration, I am getting 77.2 nits fully open and 55.5 nits at -6. The drop appears to be minimal in my case, from around 79 down to 77 nits.
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post #13980 of 14023 Old 07-04-2020, 09:33 PM
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Welcome to JVC crowd. I have x570 so probably lower end than your projector, my settings may not apply, I am liking picture a lot, x570 is not a contrast king, but other that MadVR Tonemapping delivers great picture

Quote:
Originally Posted by MidnightWatcher View Post
@coxy2416 @catav @dvzzz and any others using madVR with the X790 / RS540. I've just made the switch over to "Team JVC" with the X790 and am looking forward to getting the projector installed this coming Monday!

I've been using my HTPC to tone map HDR to SDR for my soon-to-be-retired Epson 5030UB. I understand that I should now set up madVR to tone map HDR to SDR and set it to also output BT2020 instead of BT709. Can any of you provide me with some additional tips? What optimal settings on the JVC did each of you come to? Thanks in advance!
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