Official JVC - 20LTD - RS640 (x990/x9900) - RS540 (X790/x7900) - Owners Thread - Page 75 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #2221 of 11993 Old 11-12-2017, 09:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Javs View Post
All thanks to you mate.

Still waiting on JVC Australia to sort me out with an other sample to corroborate my findings further.
Good stuff, Javs. Great objectivity and perhaps the longest post to boot.

Now, I have a question. Are you finding that the X9900 has more video noise with its Clear Black on than that of the X9500?
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post #2222 of 11993 Old 11-13-2017, 12:07 AM
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Up until about 4 weeks ago i had the X9500...very happy with it bar the ongoing complaint of the "Mosquito" noise associated with E-Shift. JVC announce the "new " series with updated E-Shift 5. One aspect of E-Shift 5 is the mention of less image noise.

I get all excited , and then find out they have a limited series called the 20LTD......sell of my X9500 and order the 20LTD, all is good.....until.....

Javs gets one of the first X9900 samples here in Aus...posts his findings and my heart and enthusiasm sinks..

The roller coaster gets momentum and all of as sudden people are cancelling orders of the new series.

I decided the only way i was going to make up my mind on retaining the 20LTD order was to purchase an X9900 and see it for myself.

A good friend brought around his X9500 ( hear perfect sample) and another his yet unused X7500 he has for his not yet finished theatre room

We set up the X9900 and the X9500 stacked .

Basically we started comparing Thursday evening right through to Sunday night..........

I had one intent with this though.......E-Shift 4 versus E-shift 5!!

I did not get carried away with contrast,coulour ...ect....just primarily E-Shift.

Javs helped me with the info to stack the projectors and use th e"hide" feature. Feeding both PT,s the same HDMI input via the Integral and then putting one PJ out of sync to the other you have instant switching between the 2..

On to viewing....

On firing up the X9900 for the first time i was greeted with a very ungainly E-Shift noise!!!! sounded terrible.....after about an 20min it settled down and was never an issue again.

Let the X9900 warm up for an hour and check convergence..... HMMMM ...near perfect....one click down on the blue panel and it was spot on.
Focus.....Excellent.....Excellent sharpness and very even across the panel........Much Much different to the sample Javs has..

Enthusiasm was high.....
Fired up the UB900 and ran the first film......picture looked gorgeous very happy ......... watch a while longer then we switched to the X9500....OH!!!!

My fiend and i looked at one another , then switched back to the X9900....yep it was "Soft"!!

Continued to do this on many films.....same opinion every time. I actually rang Javs on the Saturday morning with the bad news that i was in fact seeing a similar result to what he had with his X9900...BUT my sample has a very good lens and panels.

The X9900 just appeared to be "Soft" not as sharp as the X9500 on both film and test images.

Sunday we started another session.....
My friend who owns the X9500 started to take more interest in the X9900... He said ..."You know what, yep the X9500 is sharper, but the X9900 is still putting out a terrific image!" ...

We then started looking at content and when you look ...E-Shift 5 "DOES" have more detail....not night and day , but is does render more than E-Shift 4..

Then, we both commented that even though E-Shift 5 appears softer , it take on the appearance of being more "analogue" ..."film like" .....the E-shift 4 "IS" sharper, but it does look a little more "Digital" HMMMM.

The images produced by the X9500 and the X9900 are both superb .....but they are different in the way they are presented...

I initially just dismissed the X9900 due to the initial softness compared to the X9500, my friend is a little more patient , and due to this i ended up looking opon the X9900 in another way....it still produces an amazing image.

The outcome of this though is i have cancelled my 20LTD order BUT that is not because the X9900 is a bad projector , its not....

I was originally going to purchase the JVC Z1 before my X9500, then all the bad report flowed in and i cancelled and got the X9500.

I felt there was no point in going for the 20LTD and it was time i finally got the Z1....so that is now on its way in place of the 20LTD..

Something also from this is , like many others have said "JVC really need to up their game when it comes to their top tier series PJ,s" .. People are paying premium dollars on the top tier models expecting to get the "hand picked parts"

Javs got a bad sample...i got an excellent sample.........they should BOTH be excellent samples!

Apologies for the long winded waffle...

Some pics..
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post #2223 of 11993 Old 11-13-2017, 12:09 AM
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post #2224 of 11993 Old 11-13-2017, 12:10 AM
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post #2225 of 11993 Old 11-13-2017, 12:52 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by woofer View Post
More....
Hey thanks for sharing Paul,

Do you remember what the MPC and Clear Black settings were for the Alien and Unforgiven shots?

The 9900 looks way better with the Alien shot. It's softer, but the video noise is significantly reduced, almost looks like the 9500 is cranked there compared to a more tame 9900. I think everyone would agree with that. I have not been able to see any difference in video noise no matter how much I tried, it doesnt show as any different in my photos either, but your photos of Alien seem to show it pretty well there. I will have to check out that film myself later. Might even try grab a shot of the same scene.

Also I can see that your 9900 unit is suffering the identical CMD Bug I report on above. Ghosting on the right hand side of text in the menu, also visible in content. Cycling CMD On/Off will get rid of it.

Also for the viewers, plase note Pauls light meter shots... you read it right, his 9900 is reporting 21fc vs 29.9fc on the 9500.... significantly dimmer image from a zero hour 9900.
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post #2226 of 11993 Old 11-13-2017, 01:43 AM
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Nigel, we are not arguing. You would know if we were believe me.

I am about a straight shooter as they come mate...

**snip**

...Nigel in regards to your offer, that's very kind of you but I am fine here thanks.
Hi Javs,
Thank you for taking the time to compose such a comprehensive and detailed response.

It has highlighted that there’s quite a few instances of misunderstandings going on here, which I think is what might have been fuelling some of your posts to which I have taken exception, so it’s good to get everything out on the table such that I can clarify matters for you and we can move forwards. Salient points as per follows:

• As I have stated previously, multiple times, I agree with your findings; which includes the differences in which eShift-5 renders detail or the apparent luminance differences (althought I think we can't draw conclusions about this without further investigation and measuring a larger quantity of units). You seem to think that I don’t even though I have said that I do and more than once.

• You have misunderstood my references to you having ‘a bum lens’… I was simply labelling what you yourself have said previously regarding your lens not being a gold sample, as in it could be better… I was/am not suggesting that your lens is responsible for the differences in which eShift-5 renders detail, but only suggesting that it might be contributing towards the overall softness of your images with your 9900.

• With respect to my disagreeing with what you posted previously regarding eShift-5 in all instances producing an overall softer image as compared with eShift-4, again I am not referring to the differences by which eShift-5 renders video information, such as your ‘Quick Brown Fox’ test pattern. I am referring solely to the overall sharpness and fine detail of the image. And I stand by what I have said in this regard because eShift-5 does NOT in all instances produce an overall softer image as compared with eShift-4.

• With respect to the video that I posted, which you keep referencing, THIS is my post; wherein you will note that I am not in fact seeking to demonstrate anything whatsoever but this is a test video where I am seeking feedback whether what I was seeking to capture in the video was in any way successful as way of determining whether it was/is worth my while making such videos, NOT demonstrate anything in itself:

Quote:
Originally Posted by ARROW-AV View Post
Hi Guys,
Please can some of you kindly watch the following video, which comprises direct comparison of the respective projected images of the two projectors... I have been trying to put together some video comparisons to accompany the screenshot comparisons, measurements, and explanatory details, and what I would like to know is can you perceive sufficient enough difference between the two for it to be worthwhile my investing more time into producing more of these videos... In short, whilst I've succeeded in preventing the usual suspects of technical issues that are typically associated with filming live projected images, such as temporal flicker, colour accuracy etc. I'm not sure the difference in motion performance is noticeable enough... this has been most challenging to capture on video, which is incredibly frustrating because the performance difference in person is absolutely insane, especially with respect to this particular movie clip... So can you guys see differences here or not? Because I already know what's what it's hard for me to judge... Thoughts?

NOTE: Ensure to change the setting for the video to 4K before playing!


• Regarding my reference to the 9500 being unwatchable I was referring to a particular clip of a particular movie with the 9500 with CMD turned off and not all 9500 units in the world in all circumstances.

• A primary why I didn’t respond in detail to some of your posts including your questions is due to being extremely busy, and not because I am not going to post more screenshots or my settings etc. wherein in fact I have repeatedly stated that I will be doing so, such as in my #2164

• The reason why I switched labels on the photos was to add a blind element to the exercise. We carry out blind testing often to facilitate more accurate and useful results data… not for any other reason.

So there appears to have been a bit of a communication breakdown and if I have in any way contributed towards that then I’d like to apologise.

But hopefully you can see why I was scratching my head at what you have been posting, and thought that you were having a pop at me.

Anyway, thanks again for your post and I have to attend to something now but I as soon as can I will a bit later post some more screenshots etc. along with the details with respect to what I have done that seems to consistently achieve a slightly superior overall image with the 9900 here as compared with the 9500.

And consider the invitation to come and visit an open invitation with no expiry date

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post #2227 of 11993 Old 11-13-2017, 01:51 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Javs View Post
Hey thanks for sharing Paul,

Do you remember what the MPC and Clear Black settings were for the Alien and Unforgiven shots?
Both used MPC Enhance "3" ...Smoothing and NR "0".........Clear Black "Low"
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post #2228 of 11993 Old 11-13-2017, 01:52 AM
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Would be good to see a shootout from you arrow between a 9900 & a 7900
That might prove if "hand picked parts" are worth it or not!
As it happens I will in fact be doing this...

and also then subsequently a comparison 7900 v 9900 v 20LTD

Let's hope that we can tell the difference between the 7900 and 20LTD!

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post #2229 of 11993 Old 11-13-2017, 01:57 AM
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One thing i forgot to mention......CMD is definitely better on the X9900.

On the film "Kong Skull Island" when the chic falls into the water and Kong places his hand into it to lift her out.....the shot on the X9500 is "un-watchable" ...it looks like stripped wallpaper!!! On the X9900 the water is very nice shades of green with sun rays streaming through....this shot is completely destroyed on the X9500 with CMD on low or high..
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post #2230 of 11993 Old 11-13-2017, 03:25 AM
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woofer here is a lowly 7000 for comparison on that unforgiven shot, taken a while ago, my shot is few frames following your time stamp i think



this was pre autocal of my unit, and my exposure for the shot is spot metered on the horse so it is not haloing. so will as effect under expose some bits that are more exposed on yours i have also take my shot with a full frame camera with a 50mm lens to best mimic field of view of eye and back from main viewing position so trying best to replicate what was seeing.

anyways for just another take of things
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post #2231 of 11993 Old 11-13-2017, 03:26 AM
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@Javs

Another aspect maybe to consider ??


My screen is a 143" scope , which i think is approx 151" 16:9 ....reasonably large.

Could i be that the X9500 is at its limits with E-Shift , thus starting to look processed/digital/overcooked ?

The X9900 has Eshift 5 with a "little" more detail holds up better and doesn't look as "Digital/overcooked??

Just a thought..?
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post #2232 of 11993 Old 11-13-2017, 03:38 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by woofer View Post
My fiend and i looked at one another , then switched back to the X9900....yep it was "Soft"!!
Quote:
Originally Posted by woofer View Post
@Javs Another aspect maybe to consider ?? My screen is a 143" scope , which i think is approx 151" 16:9 ....reasonably large. Could i be that the X9500 is at its limits with E-Shift , thus starting to look processed/digital/overcooked ? The X9900 has Eshift 5 with a "little" more detail holds up better and doesn't look as "Digital/overcooked?? Just a thought..?
There's less video enhancement in eShift-5 natively and/or Enhance has a different lesser effect with the new models... Therefore, it's an 'Apples with Oranges' comparison if you have the same settings on both projectors... That's my 'Discovery #1'

Quote:
Originally Posted by woofer View Post
E-Shift 5 "DOES" have more detail....not night and day , but is does render more than E-Shift 4..
Yup, that's my 'Discovery #2'

Quote:
Originally Posted by woofer View Post
One thing i forgot to mention......CMD is definitely better on the X9900

On the film "Kong Skull Island" when the chic falls into the water and Kong places his hand into it to lift her out.....the shot on the X9500 is "un-watchable" ...it looks like stripped wallpaper!!! On the X9900 the water is very nice shades of green with sun rays streaming through....this shot is completely destroyed on the X9500 with CMD on low or high..
You got it... this is my 'Discovery #3'

...and there's more than this... I will be posting the details shortly along with some more photos plus my settings etc... But for now:



.
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post #2233 of 11993 Old 11-13-2017, 03:50 AM
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Actually, to keep things tidy I'll mention that my Discovery #4 is that with CMD set to LOW or HIGH and same setting for both 9900 and 9500 the 9900 yields the sharper image.

And my Discovery #5 is that with both projectors with PURE BLACK set to LOW, again the 9900 yields the sharper image.

I'll be posting my complete settings combination and details shortly...

@woofer - When I do can you please try all my settings and see if you find your 9900 is no longer overall softer than the 9500?

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post #2234 of 11993 Old 11-13-2017, 05:25 AM
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It is a dedicated theater. 100% light controlled, flat black ceiling/back wall, flat dark red side walls, velvet on ceiling, dark grey carpet. I feel like it looks like in those pics, pretty similar. Kind of washed out grey instead of a dark black. On full black scenes with the auto iris all the way clamped, it definitely gets significantly darker. With any scope content playing, the 'black bars' are much brighter than the velvet and very noticeable. I read some people said they couldn't see the shadow of their hand in the black bars, but I can easily see mine with brighter content on the screen.
Black is still projected light, you will always be able to see shadow in the black bars. But still in a good room, if the two projectors are set up correctly, there will be a huge difference in black level and contrast between an RS540 and an HW40. When you hit the hide button on the JVC, does your black level go up, go down or stay the same?
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post #2235 of 11993 Old 11-13-2017, 05:39 AM
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Bloody hell! I think I tempted fate by posting that 'Hallelujah Squirrel!'

We just had a powercut and when I got everything up and running @Javs 's Quick Brown Fox test pattern has suddenly gone totally FUBAR! Have a look at this!



Settings are CMD LOW, CLEAR BLACK LOW, MPC Enhance 2, everything else OFF or 0...

Does anyone know what the hell just happened and how I fix this?
.
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post #2236 of 11993 Old 11-13-2017, 05:43 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ARROW-AV View Post
Bloody hell! I think I tempted fate by posting that 'Hallelujah Squirrel!'

We just had a powercut and when I got everything up and running @Javs 's Quick Brown Fox test pattern has suddenly gone totally FUBAR! Have a look at this!



Settings are CMD LOW, CLEAR BLACK LOW, MPC Enhance 2, everything else OFF or 0...

Does anyone know what the hell just happened and how I fix this?
.
Reboot your PC (to make sure it's not your GPU/OS/Drivers) or source if not a PC, and cold reset the PJ (switch off, wait for fan to stop, unplug power cord, wait 30 seconds, plug power cord back in, power the PJ on). You can also try a factory reset of the PJ settings (in service menu). Otherwise, call your dealer (j/k of course)
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post #2237 of 11993 Old 11-13-2017, 05:53 AM
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Originally Posted by Manni01 View Post
Reboot your PC (to make sure it's not your GPU/OS/Drivers) or source if not a PC, and cold reset the PJ (switch off, wait for fan to stop, unplug power cord, wait 30 seconds, plug power cord back in, power the PJ on). You can also try a factory reset of the PJ settings (in service menu). Otherwise, call your dealer (j/k of course)
Not come across this one before... damn peculiar! I tried calling my dealer first, but I keep getting an engaged/busy tone for some reason...

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post #2238 of 11993 Old 11-13-2017, 06:15 AM
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Originally Posted by ARROW-AV View Post
Not come across this one before... damn peculiar! I tried calling my dealer first, but I keep getting an engaged/busy tone for some reason...

If none of the above solved it, it could be a wrong colorspace. Do you only get the issue with this specific pattern? Are you set to UHD (no scaling) in the source?

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post #2239 of 11993 Old 11-13-2017, 06:48 AM
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The roller coaster gets momentum and all of as sudden people are cancelling orders of the new series.
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There are shortfalls in every product I guess its a matter of picking the flaws you can deal with.
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post #2240 of 11993 Old 11-13-2017, 07:08 AM
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[QUOTE=Manni01;55111760]
1) As previoulsy posted, I have made these two HDR modes available for all 2015+ units in 2015 in the JVC Autocal thread, it's nothing new except there is now an option for it in the menu of the 2018 models. JVC have simply implemented these in the f/w so that they are available out of the box. My BT2020-F colour profile uses the filter (so wider gamut, close to 100% of DCI-P3), my BT2020-NF color profile uses no filter, hence more brightness for a slightly narrower gamut (around 90% of DCI-P3). These two profiles are available for any model supporting the JVC Autocal software, you don't need a Spyder to import them. Because there is very little actual content above 90% sat, it's a good option to explore for anyone with less than 100nits in HDR, as all the saturations will be correct for content below 90% sat (the majority of actual content). Note that the BT.2020 color profile made available by JVC a few months after I shared my two profiles is identical to my BT2020-F profile (which is to be expected as it's simply a profile using the standard BT2020 targets, it was simply missing in JVC's initial implementation). However, they chose not to offer a BT.2020NF profile at the time, when they could have.[quote]

Hi Manni or anyone:
I have a RS520 and want to import your BT2020-NF color profile so I don't have to run the high lamp. I have read the instruction, found and download the BT2020-NF file; however, I have a question: Do I need to also import your New Custom Gamma files: Custom PQ Gamma Manni JVC-800-355-4000 for this to work?
Thank you,
BT
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post #2241 of 11993 Old 11-13-2017, 07:22 AM
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If none of the above solved it, it could be a wrong colorspace. Do you only get the issue with this specific pattern? Are you set to UHD (no scaling) in the source?
Bingo! It was the colorspace setting on the source player, which had reset... Thanks Manni!

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post #2242 of 11993 Old 11-13-2017, 07:44 AM
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Nigel, we are not arguing. You would know if we were believe me.

I am about a straight shooter as they come mate, I don't know how it works in England, but in Australia that's how we all get along so well generally here, if there is a problem we speak up, its fundamentally part of who I am, so please dont take it the wrong way when I challenge you on something, I expect others to do so with me when there are issues with things I have to report...
Some post that is

Nicely done with those comparison shots. Seeing Woofer's post as well I can only say if I didn't have a nice 9500 sitting here I'd be happy with a good 9900 but that is not the case so I think not going ahead with the LTD was a good move in the end as I now believe it would take a larger step up in PQ to warrant an upgrade such as what Woofer did with the Z1!

Also I am upgrading to a 135" screen so the actual dimmer output would be a bit of a struggle.

Looking forward to once again visit MR Arrow-AV to take a good look at these PJ again just to be sure but the highlight will be the two laser projectors for sure.

Lots of good info lately from everyone invloved here though!
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post #2243 of 11993 Old 11-13-2017, 07:50 AM
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Originally Posted by btran33 View Post
Hi Manni or anyone:
I have a RS520 and want to import your BT2020-NF color profile so I don't have to run the high lamp. I have read the instruction, found and download the BT2020-NF file; however, I have a question: Do I need to also import your New Custom Gamma files: Custom PQ Gamma Manni JVC-800-355-4000 for this to work?
Thank you,
BT
I suggest you ask in the JVC Autocal thread if you have any further question so as not to clutter this thread, but the short answer is no, you can use this profile with the rs520 ST2084 gamma curve (not sure how it's called)

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post #2244 of 11993 Old 11-13-2017, 08:15 AM
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Some post that is

Also I am upgrading to a 135" screen so the actual dimmer output would be a bit of a struggle.
This has me as worried as anything. I have a 128" 2.35 1.0 AT screen but I am firing from 19' away. HDR is a struggle as it is; going backwards in lumens is not something I wanted to hear.

I personally am not super heart broken over the "slightly" softer image. I am one of those who prefers a more film like image; hence the attraction to the 385 initially. I just couldn't give up the contrast for it. So now I have a 385 with good contrast.

The fact that there is still a CMD glitch is aggravating. I mean come on already JVC; poor form.
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The purpose of listening shouldn't be to respond as much as it should be to understand.
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This has me as worried as anything. I have a 128" 2.35 1.0 AT screen but I am firing from 19' away. HDR is a struggle as it is; going backwards in lumens is not something I wanted to hear.

I personally am not super heart broken over the "slightly" softer image. I am one of those who prefers a more film like image; hence the attraction to the 385 initially. I just couldn't give up the contrast for it. So now I have a 385 with good contrast.

The fact that there is still a CMD glitch is aggravating. I mean come on already JVC; poor form.
well SDR WCG is your friend
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post #2246 of 11993 Old 11-13-2017, 08:21 AM
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Originally Posted by Manni01 View Post
I suggest you ask in the JVC Autocal thread if you have any further question so as not to clutter this thread, but the short answer is no, you can use this profile with the rs520 ST2084 gamma curve (not sure how it's called)
Thanks for your reply...
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post #2247 of 11993 Old 11-13-2017, 08:22 AM
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well SDR WCG is your friend
I'm unfamiliar with stripping the metadata. Wouldn't I need a linker to make this work properly when viewing 4k discs?

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post #2248 of 11993 Old 11-13-2017, 08:29 AM
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I'm unfamiliar with stripping the metadata. Wouldn't I need a linker to make this work properly when viewing 4k discs?
Depends on the player.

With the UB900 you need the Integral/Linker/Vertex to keep HDR enabled in the player but tell it the display only supports 4K and WCG but not HDR (otherwise if you switch HDR off in the UB900 you get SDR Rec-709).

With the Oppo you can use the "strip metadata" (poor name) that converts to SDR BT2020 without the need for a Linker/Integral/Vertex. Apparently, they have fixed the near-black issue they had in that mode in a recent f/w.

No idea about other players.

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post #2249 of 11993 Old 11-13-2017, 09:02 AM - Thread Starter
 
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these are close to my settings as well although when viewing SDR raising brightness above +1 raises the black floor , does having brightness at +5 with HDR raise your black floor ?
No... the darkest black level does not start to raise until I get past +15 brightness. This +5 brightness setting had 77 on the RM_UHD10+ pattern just starting to flash.
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post #2250 of 11993 Old 11-13-2017, 09:18 AM
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No... the darkest black level does not start to raise until I get past +15 brightness. This +5 brightness setting had 77 on the RM_UHD10+ pattern just starting to flash.
I tried these settings, while they greatly increase brightness levels they do introduce huge amounts of clipping, check for example the Warner Brothers logo on a UHD disc such as Blade Runner it appears completely washed out. These settings can be useful for older poorly graded discs but definitely not the better ones they will look highly inaccurate. Sorry just had to

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