Official JVC - 20LTD - RS640 (x990/x9900) - RS540 (X790/x7900) - Owners Thread - Page 90 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #2671 of 12210 Old 11-17-2017, 01:57 PM
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post #2672 of 12210 Old 11-17-2017, 02:24 PM
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Originally Posted by Frohlich View Post
That might be a great corporate response but we have several very credible users on AVS document they are seeing lower lumens with this model. So much so that Coderguy started a whole new thread on it.

I know all about corporate responses, the Sony 385 I own is banding and is "working as designed"
Let's take the discussion regarding this particular topic over to that thread then

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post #2673 of 12210 Old 11-17-2017, 02:25 PM
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Just yesterday Kaotikr1 posted this in the 385 thread as he has both the Sony 385 and JVC 640/x990 in his room at the same time:


Post #2225 from 385 thread:

These are both in a similar mode. High Lamp, Iris Open, 6500k, etc..

JVC 14.5 Throw
Sony 13.5 Throw
110" Screen

JVC - 317 Lux
Sony - 373 Lux

It does make me pause since the JVC Is touted at 2000 lumens and the Sony at 1500.
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post #2674 of 12210 Old 11-17-2017, 02:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Frohlich View Post
That might be a great corporate response but we have several very credible users on AVS document they are seeing lower lumens with this model. So much so that Coderguy started a whole new thread on it.

I know all about corporate responses, the Sony 385 I own is banding and is "working as designed"
Not the same thing. You may not like Sony's response, but they did not deny that the projector does not have banding. They just said it is working as designed. On the JVC's, I believe we have reports from 3 people, one of which looks like it could be settings. You also have at least 100 forum members with new JVC's that are not reporting any issue. As for what Arrow said, One of my contacts with JVC has a 620 and a 640 in his home. The 640 brightness measured correctly and yes it was brighter than the 620, since 640 had fewer hours. Also JVC reported to me that the spot checks on the new JVC's (a set percentage is randomly checked) are not showing a brightness issue.
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post #2675 of 12210 Old 11-17-2017, 02:37 PM
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Originally Posted by Mike Garrett View Post
Not the same thing. You may not like Sony's response, but they did not deny that the projector does not have banding. They just said it is working as designed. On the JVC's, I believe we have reports from 3 people, one of which looks like it could be settings. You also have at least 100 forum members with new JVC's that are not reporting any issue. As for what Arrow said, One of my contacts with JVC has a 620 and a 640 in his home. The 640 brightness measured correctly and yes it was brighter than the 620, since 640 had fewer hours. Also JVC reported to me that the spot checks on the new JVC's (a set percentage is randomly checked) are not showing a brightness issue.
I think that is directed towards me because I have been questioned multiple times on settings, I will admit, I must be missing a setting that is knocking off 600-800 lumens, the fact that there is a combination of settings on the projector when you have it in high lamp, iris 0, etc.. that would cause someone to lose 600-800 lumens is scary and I hope to find that magic setting.

I have also read from a lot of members that they don't see an issue but they don't have a meter to measure.

Also the Sony does not have a special setting as the one I have here is measuring as it should be according to many reviews.

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post #2676 of 12210 Old 11-17-2017, 02:37 PM
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Originally Posted by Highjinx View Post
Perhaps, perhaps not. One would not expect the manufacturer to say "Yep we have a problem!" doing so could affect sales, at least publicly. It may not be a problem per se, could it be by design?



Hypothesize away, but something in the machine is restricting the light output in comparison to the previous models.

Have any of the X990/X9900/RS640 come close to the light output of the previous models of the same ilk?
Several of us have spoken with JVC and posted this info, but here it is again. Lamp is the same. Lens is the same. Basic light engine design is the same. And specifically, JVC stated, no difference in light output from last years model.

Statistically that is a big leap, when extrapolating data from only a sample of two or three.
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post #2677 of 12210 Old 11-17-2017, 02:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kaotikr1 View Post
I think that is directed towards me because I have been questioned multiple times on settings, I will admit, I must be missing a setting that is knocking off 600-800 lumens, the fact that there is a combination of settings on the projector when you have it in high lamp, iris 0, etc.. that would cause someone to lose 600-800 lumens is scary and I hope to find that magic setting.

I have also read from a lot of members that they don't see an issue but they don't have a meter to measure.

Also the Sony does not have a special setting as the one I have here is measuring as it should be according to many reviews.
No, not directed toward you. Based off of my conversations with JVC, I do not see this as a problem with every JVC, like some are purporting. I asked about settings, because some settings will really reduce the light output, such as THX mode, because in that mode the filter is used.

Added
I am just trying to find answers, since what some people are seeing is not what is expected and I am just trying to rule out what variables I can. I did mean to ask you yesterday, was a calibration performed on the projectors with a meter or just settings selected the same?

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post #2678 of 12210 Old 11-17-2017, 02:57 PM
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Originally Posted by ARROW-AV View Post
Yes, CMD IS indeed very much improved with the new models. IMO the improved and fixed CMD functionality is the most significant improvement of all; moreso than eShift-5 which is definitely an improvement over e-Shift4 but the difference is only slight.

Where as it happens with respect to my observations and previous posts regarding CMD with the new models being very much new and improved, as opposed to solely having the posterization issue fixed, I have now received official confirmation directly from JVC themselves that I am absolutely correct.

It's not just the posterization issue that's been fixed. CMD has been completely overhauled and now produces significantly improved performance and without screwing up the image in the numerous ways that it did previously. Now it does precisely what it's supposed to do and optimally so. Aside from a minor bug which I am sure JVC will fix soon via simple firmware update (refreshing CMD whenever you turn the projector on clears it) the only remaining 'issue' is the added realism that CMD brings to video images that some folks understandably don't like, which is fine. However, personally, presented with the choice of suffering intermittent judder and motion blur, including some scenes in movies that are rendered completely unwatchable as a direct consequence; or enjoying absolutely no judder or motion blur whatsoever and a much more realistic looking image, in addition to slightly superior sharpness and detail as compared with the previous models, I'll take the latter everytime thanks



.
Do you think a new firmware will be possible on JVC X9500/X7500 series
Because if CMD is now better after 5 eshift, it can be a big improvement instead of buying a new model every time
I'm pretty sure it' can be updated or the firmware on JVC X9900 is possible to be implemented on the previous serie?
If the best way for JVC is marketing, customers might be tired of investing for just a firmware
Since about 10 years, JVC Xxxxx is already my 6th beamer
Just my 2 cents

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post #2679 of 12210 Old 11-17-2017, 03:02 PM
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Originally Posted by vincz View Post
Do you think a new firmware will be possible on JVC X9500/X7500 series
Because if CMD is now better after 5 eshift, it can be a big improvement instead of buying a new model every time
I'm pretty sure it's just to update or the firmware on JVC X9900 is possible to be implemented on the previous serie?
If the best way for JVC is marketing, customers might be tired of investing for just a firmware
Since about 10 years, JVC X7500 is already my 6th beamer
Just my 2 cents
It has been posted several times. Yes there is a firmware update to correct the banding on last years JVC projectors. In fact not all of last years JVC projectors have a banding problem, because late in the year, JVC made a running production line change to correct. Now to get this firmware update, you have to send your projector to JVC, because to correct the projector has to be opened up and changes made to internal systems.
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post #2680 of 12210 Old 11-17-2017, 03:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Garrett View Post
Several of us have spoken with JVC and posted this info, but here it is again. Lamp is the same. Lens is the same. Basic light engine design is the same. And specifically, JVC stated, no difference in light output from last years model.

Statistically that is a big leap, when extrapolating data from only a sample of two or three.
Quote:
Originally Posted by woofer View Post
........................ BUT the X9500 AND X7500 i have here are brighter than the X9900 i also have here???
Even swapped the bulb from the X7500 ( it had zero hours on it) to the X9900 and the X9900 was still dimmer......sort of takes the bulb out of the equation???
Woofers experience is telling, where the same globe from a zero hour x7500 when installed in a x9900 produced less light than when that same globe is operating in the x7500(all setting being equal) It would have been better if the lamp was tested in a x9500 as well. It's possible the x9900/x9500 have more effective WG polarizers that cut down a bit more light.

However this indicates that the x9900/RS640 is restricting the light output. The question is why? How? and if it's by design, for what reason.

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post #2681 of 12210 Old 11-17-2017, 03:29 PM
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Originally Posted by RapalloAV View Post
So since you leave low latency on all the time, you cant use the new fab CMD on low or high that Arrow tells us about.
CMD Has a ghosting bug.. I have reported it already, twice.

It affects CMD, but even worse, its present when CMD is OFF until you cycle CMD on/off and then it will go away, but with CMD On the bug is always present.

Best not to use it unless you want a degraded image.





Its also there when you power on the PJ, just like the old CMD bug on the last years models (It has the EXACT same bug on my 9500).

Only way to get rid of it is to cycle CMD on and OFF. But then Even if you go into panel alignment menu, then back out again, the bug will return.

Low Latency mode switched on disables CMD completely and thus the bug never manifests with Low Latency on. This was something I reported day one, but I never knew what caused it, and I posted the following pics, well I do know now its CMD caused, and also the 9500 suffers the same bug.

Low Latency OFF (CMD Bug present)



Low Latency ON (Disables CMD)



More...

http://screenshotcomparison.com/comparison/121490

http://screenshotcomparison.com/comparison/123359

http://screenshotcomparison.com/comparison/121489

http://screenshotcomparison.com/comparison/121488

CMD Softens and degrades the image sharpness. Fact.

Here is what it does on the 9500, same thing:

http://screenshotcomparison.com/comparison/123365

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post #2682 of 12210 Old 11-17-2017, 06:39 PM
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Spoiler!


This really ticks me off. This was present on last model and it is still present on this model? What gives JVC? I absolutely can't stand judder and a well implemented CMD was high on my list. To hear you can't use it again this year is really upsetting.

The purpose of listening shouldn't be to respond as much as it should be to understand.
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post #2683 of 12210 Old 11-17-2017, 07:28 PM
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Originally Posted by Javs View Post
CMD Has a ghosting bug.. I have reported it already, twice.

It affects CMD, but even worse, its present when CMD is OFF until you cycle CMD on/off and then it will go away, but with CMD On the bug is always present.

Best not to use it unless you want a degraded image.





Its also there when you power on the PJ, just like the old CMD bug on the last years models (It has the EXACT same bug on my 9500).

Only way to get rid of it is to cycle CMD on and OFF. But then Even if you go into panel alignment menu, then back out again, the bug will return.

Low Latency mode switched on disables CMD completely and thus the bug never manifests with Low Latency on. This was something I reported day one, but I never knew what caused it, and I posted the following pics, well I do know now its CMD caused, and also the 9500 suffers the same bug.

Low Latency OFF (CMD Bug present)



Low Latency ON (Disables CMD)



More...

http://screenshotcomparison.com/comparison/121490

http://screenshotcomparison.com/comparison/123359

http://screenshotcomparison.com/comparison/121489

http://screenshotcomparison.com/comparison/121488

CMD Softens and degrades the image sharpness. Fact.

Here is what it does on the 9500, same thing:

http://screenshotcomparison.com/comparison/123365
Excellent catch Javs!

That said, are you actually seeing this affecting anything other than the menus? Because I'm not seeing it affecting any video images at all so far, unless I'm missing something. I've tested CMD using everything from geometry test patterns to movies and it's all good!

Also, CMD with the new models is without a doubt very much improved and comparatively speaking yields a sharper more detailed image with the X9900/RS640 as compared with the X9500/RS620. I cannot help but note that some of your own screenshots clearly show this?

Do you have screenshots where this bug is shown to affect actual video content? If you do it might facilitate putting the thumb-screws on JVC to get this bug fixed!



Incidentally, Low Latency does soften the image in all instances with all projector models; so, IMO it should only be used for gaming otherwise turned OFF... Agree?
.
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post #2684 of 12210 Old 11-17-2017, 07:30 PM
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Originally Posted by bass addict View Post
Spoiler!


This really ticks me off. This was present on last model and it is still present on this model? What gives JVC? I absolutely can't stand judder and a well implemented CMD was high on my list. To hear you can't use it again this year is really upsetting.
IMO this bug most certainly does NOT render CMD unusable with respect to the new model JVC projectors... It's awesome!

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post #2685 of 12210 Old 11-17-2017, 07:40 PM
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Originally Posted by ARROW-AV View Post
Excellent catch Javs!

That said, are you actually seeing this affecting anything other than the menus? Because I'm not seeing it affecting any video images at all so far, unless I'm missing something. It seems to only affect the menus

Also, CMD with the new models is without a doubt very much improved and comparatively speaking yields a sharper more detailed image with the X9900/RS640 as compared with the X9500/RS620.

Do you have screenshots where this bug is shown to affect actual video content? If you do it might facilitate putting the thumb-screws on JVC to get this bug fixed!

Click the links above bud. I can see it yes.

Look at the letter smearing...

http://screenshotcomparison.com/comparison/123359

http://screenshotcomparison.com/comparison/121489

Check out the 'Customize' box and the blue box... more smearing.

http://screenshotcomparison.com/comparison/121488

Check out the blue swirls on the scarf, there is ghosting with CMD On, kinda looks like ringing in the image, not there with Low Latency ON (Meaning bug is definitely not present).

http://screenshotcomparison.com/comparison/123839

Here is what it does on the 9500, same thing:

Look at the pink Y.

http://screenshotcomparison.com/comparison/123365

Hard to see here but its there too, blue swirls on scarf are ringing:

http://screenshotcomparison.com/comparison/123840

These are the pics I have on hand, I could take more, but I think it shows there.

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post #2686 of 12210 Old 11-17-2017, 07:44 PM
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Originally Posted by ARROW-AV View Post
Incidentally, Low Latency does soften the image in all instances with all projector models; so, IMO it should only be used for gaming otherwise turned OFF... Agree?
.
The low latency bug was fixed on the x20 models as a running change (and is addressed if the projector is sent in for the CMD fix). It is a non issue on the new models and the RS4500. No softening of image and it makes synch faster as it bypasses the frame buffer for CMD. I use it on the RS4500 with great results.

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post #2687 of 12210 Old 11-17-2017, 07:48 PM
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Originally Posted by ARROW-AV View Post

Incidentally, Low Latency does soften the image in all instances with all projector models; so, IMO it should only be used for gaming otherwise turned OFF... Agree?
.
It depends. Yes agree, if the bug never manifests. But I have discovered this bug comes back VERY easily during the same session. Go to the pixel adjust screen, the focus screen, all those make the bug come right back again.

As I said earlier:

Here is when I was able to make sure the bug was not present and compare to LL mode in its true form.

Quote:
Low Latency OFF / Low Latency ON

http://screenshotcomparison.com/comparison/123360

Nigel, you and I can now agree that Low Latency ON with the new models despite being fantastic with sync times, is indeed ever so slightly softer compared to off, and thus should be left OFF at all time.

However, if you look at the above rollover with LL ON, you actually have more complete and rounded letters, and the vertical lines have better delineation in the spacing between the lines vs OFF. Also the other annoying thing here is, the CMD bug will manifest every time you use the projector if you decide to leave LL OFF, the only way to be sure it never manifests, is if LL is left ON, pick your poison here. If you forget to cycle CMD and the bug persists your image is going to be worse IMO.

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post #2688 of 12210 Old 11-17-2017, 07:51 PM
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Originally Posted by Kris Deering View Post
The low latency bug was fixed on the x20 models as a running change (and is addressed if the projector is sent in for the CMD fix). It is a non issue on the new models and the RS4500. No softening of image and it makes synch faster as it bypasses the frame buffer for CMD. I use it on the RS4500 with great results.
Sorry Kris, still softens the image slightly, though IMO CMD is worse. Though this is nothing like the old 24p LL bug which cut resolution right in half, this is a new one I have discovered that is also there on my 9500 (without CMD fix), and the LL bug is still the same in regards to the ghosting, see above.

http://screenshotcomparison.com/comparison/123360
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post #2689 of 12210 Old 11-17-2017, 07:51 PM
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Originally Posted by zax123 View Post
Hi guys,

I, like many others, have been debating between the RS640/X990 and the Sony VW385ES (or RS540 and Sony VW285ES). For me specifically, it would be the RS640 or 385.

After someone in the Sony thread did a head to head with the 640 and the 385 and sided with the JVC, I am tempted to go with the JVC (after almost being convinced to go Sony)...
Hi, Do you have a link to the shootout?

Thanks

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post #2690 of 12210 Old 11-17-2017, 07:58 PM
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Originally Posted by ARROW-AV View Post
Also, CMD with the new models is without a doubt very much improved and comparatively speaking yields a sharper more detailed image with the X9900/RS640 as compared with the X9500/RS620. I cannot help but note that some of your own screenshots clearly show this?.
I compare that here:

http://screenshotcomparison.com/comparison/123844

http://screenshotcomparison.com/comparison/123845

Is it your opinion that the 9900 shot with the Indian woman's hand looks better on the 9900 above?

Reminder, this is the center portion of my lens, and very comparable in focus and pixel delineation.

What do others in the thread think of the two shots above?

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post #2691 of 12210 Old 11-17-2017, 08:00 PM
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Originally Posted by movieloverAL View Post
Hi, Do you have a link to the shootout?

Thanks

Look in the Sony 385 thread for posts by Kaotikr1. He is a dealer and has both and I believe he likes both and does favor the JVC (or at least did initially). He posts on both threads so I am sure he will chime in. I don't want to put words in his mouth. Even though I ultimately chose the 385 myself, the truth is both are fine products with their own strengths and witnesses. We just obsess over this stuff more than your average AV fan. Here was his last post from today on the 385 thread:

"I will tell you guys, the more time I am spending time with this 385, the more I am really liking it. I can't put my finger on it, but I do enjoy the picture it's putting on the screen."
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post #2692 of 12210 Old 11-17-2017, 08:04 PM
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Originally Posted by Kris Deering View Post
The low latency bug was fixed on the x20 models as a running change (and is addressed if the projector is sent in for the CMD fix). It is a non issue on the new models and the RS4500. No softening of image and it makes synch faster as it bypasses the frame buffer for CMD. I use it on the RS4500 with great results.
Kris, perhaps it's different with the eShift models as compared with the Z1/RS4500, as it definitely softens the image. If you have a look at Javs' screenshots it clearly shows this

Quote:
Originally Posted by Javs View Post
It depends. Yes agree, if the bug never manifests. But I have discovered this bug comes back VERY easily during the same session. Go to the pixel adjust screen, the focus screen, all those make the bug come right back again.

As I said earlier:

Here is when I was able to make sure the bug was not present and compare to LL mode in its true form.
Again, good catch

Personally, I think there's two issues here that need fixing. Both the CMD bug to which you refer, and the softening of the image induced by Low Latency.

Have you reported both of these to JVC?

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post #2693 of 12210 Old 11-17-2017, 08:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ARROW-AV View Post

Have you reported both of these to JVC?
LOL, I am not even close to joking when I tell you that would be an utter waste of my time here in Australia.

I am sending my 9900 to the service center on Monday, and lets just say the man that opens my box is going to be shocked when he sees a multi page manuscript with descriptions and photographic evidence of the units issues

JVC said to put a 'note' in the box of the units issues... my brain went 'You want a note huh, Ill give you a note alright.'

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post #2694 of 12210 Old 11-17-2017, 08:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Javs View Post
LOL, I am not even close to joking when I tell you that would be an utter waste of my time here in Australia.

I am sending my 9900 to the service center on Monday, and lets just say the man that opens my box is going to be shocked when he sees a multi page manuscript with descriptions and photographic evidence of the units issues

JVC said to put a 'note' in the box of the units issues... my brain went 'You want a note huh, Ill give you a note alright.'

Am I close????

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post #2695 of 12210 Old 11-17-2017, 08:12 PM
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What I want to know is; how can mere "amateurs" on this forum find these readily apparent flaws, and yet JVC in all it's infinite wisdom cannot? I don't understand how a manufacture can produce the same projector for three years running and still have issues (that should be easily addressed).
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post #2696 of 12210 Old 11-17-2017, 08:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Javs View Post
I compare that here:

http://screenshotcomparison.com/comparison/123844

http://screenshotcomparison.com/comparison/123845

Is it your opinion that the 9900 shot with the Indian woman's hand looks better on the 9900 above?

Reminder, this is the center portion of my lens, and very comparable in focus and pixel delineation.

What do others in the thread think of the two shots above?
As it happens yes I do... And as it also happens so do you, because you posted THIS:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Javs View Post
CMD ON vs CMD ON

http://screenshotcomparison.com/comparison/123374

It looks like when CMD is ON with both units, the 9900 is sharper for sure... The 9900 image definitely does also appear more natural and filmic, but I had a feeling it was because they reduced the effectiveness and severity of the MPC controls
So I agree with you.

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post #2697 of 12210 Old 11-17-2017, 08:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Javs View Post
LOL, I am not even close to joking when I tell you that would be an utter waste of my time here in Australia...
Well that sucks...

In which case, I'll file a report with JVC Europe

Quote:
Originally Posted by Javs View Post
LOL, I am not even close to joking when I tell you that would be an utter waste of my time here in Australia.

I am sending my 9900 to the service center on Monday, and lets just say the man that opens my box is going to be shocked when he sees a multi page manuscript with descriptions and photographic evidence of the units issues

JVC said to put a 'note' in the box of the units issues... my brain went 'You want a note huh, Ill give you a note alright.'

Brilliant!
.
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post #2698 of 12210 Old 11-17-2017, 08:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ARROW-AV View Post
As it happens yes I do... And as it also happens so do you, because you posted THIS:

So I agree with you.

Because thats a different image and set of settings. Enhance is on 2 there, and clear black turned on.

With all enhancements off I prefer the 9500 CMD images, which is what I posted.

I have made a pretty big about face with regards to clear black and enhance in the past month or two.. I now run very low settings and prefer the natural image of the projector. MadVR when watching bluray is far more effective than whatever the JVC is doing.

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post #2699 of 12210 Old 11-17-2017, 08:27 PM
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If you look at these its interesting, the images with the ehancements/clear black off, on both projectors appear far more natural.

IMO enhance and clear black are detrimental to the image on both these projectors... it looks unnatural and cooked. Even on very tame settings...

I am going to try watching a few films with them completely off from now on.



9500 CMD ON Enhance 0 / Clear Black Off vs CMD ON Enhance 2 / Clear Black Low


http://screenshotcomparison.com/comparison/123846

9900 CMD ON Enhance 0 / Clear Black Off vs CMD ON Enhance 2 / Clear Black Low

http://screenshotcomparison.com/comparison/123847

9500 CMD OFF Enhance 0 / Clear Black Off vs CMD ON Enhance 2 / Clear Black Low

http://screenshotcomparison.com/comparison/123848

9900 CMD OFF Enhance 0 / Clear Black Off vs CMD ON Enhance 2 / Clear Black Low

http://screenshotcomparison.com/comparison/123849

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post #2700 of 12210 Old 11-17-2017, 08:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Javs View Post
Because thats a different image and set of settings. Enhance is on 2 there, and clear black turned on.

With all enhancements off I prefer the 9500 CMD images, which is what I posted.

I have made a pretty big about face with regards to clear black and enhance in the past month or two.. I now run very low settings and prefer the natural image of the projector. MadVR when watching bluray is far more effective than whatever the JVC is doing.
You seem to be of the view that I jack up all the settings... You will therefore be surprised when you read what they are when I post my report. I think I may just have about caught up with the gazillion hours you've spent on these projectors!

So, just to be clear, you agree with me that with all of CMD on LOW, CLEAR BLACK on LOW, and ENHANCE on no more than 1 or 2, then the X9900/RS640 looks sharper and more detailed than the X9500/RS620?

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