Sony VPL-VW260/285 360/385 550/675 Picture Quality Deficiences in HFR HDR content - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #1 of 78 Old 10-21-2017, 09:47 AM - Thread Starter
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Sony VPL-VW260/285 360/385 550/675 Picture Quality Deficiences in HFR HDR content

So here it is, a place to discuss the very bad and unrealistic picture that results on these machines in 4K HFR HDR modes.

Please discuss here anything that concerns you, or otherwise, about this issue and put forward any possible tests and solutions up for debate.

Edited to add: Could I also ask that any example pictures have the projector information screen in them also, to allow easy reference to what is actually on view?

Cheers.

I will get the ball rolling with an example of banding.

Discuss!
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Last edited by Archibald1; 10-23-2017 at 11:20 AM. Reason: additional points
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post #2 of 78 Old 10-21-2017, 09:51 AM
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Is this about banding?

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post #3 of 78 Old 10-21-2017, 09:53 AM - Thread Starter
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Sorry, couldn't resist that!

Seriously though, here are a few of pics demonstrating the differences between the image at 60hz and then 30 or 24hz with a view to large areas of similar colour and then some of close up faces demonstrating the inaccurate colours and often severe micro posterisation present, in the same HFR modes.

Cheers.
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post #4 of 78 Old 10-21-2017, 09:59 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by christoffeldg View Post
Is this about banding?
And any other issues re picture quality (if any) anyone may want to raise and discuss.
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post #5 of 78 Old 10-21-2017, 07:31 PM
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Got kicked out of the owners threads cuz they don't want to talk about defects or issues there?

OK so here's what I'm seeing in ratchet and clank. Is that what it looks like on your LG oled? Can you post a pic?



Here's what I'm getting on gt sport:





I have seen gt sport look fine on YouTube being played on various current high end tvs. There was no bending like I'm seeing.

I also get the banding on planet earth 2 at 60fps and is definitely more then just whats in the source

24fps:



60fps:



Tonight I'm going to try turning off hdr in gt sport, I'm assuming I'm not gonna get banding but I will report
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post #6 of 78 Old 10-21-2017, 07:35 PM
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I'm going to call Sony (US) tomorrow and see what they say.

Archibald what country's Sony told you there is fix coming and what country's Sony told you that it is not fixable due to hardware?

Last edited by Drastic380; 10-22-2017 at 01:06 AM.
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post #7 of 78 Old 10-21-2017, 07:49 PM
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This needs more research to determine if it is the projector or the source, not only it is very noticeable with HDR images but I can see some minimal banding even with non-HDR 4K 60Hz content as well.

HDR On:



HDR Off:



HDR Off:



I will try to capture more images later. This is using two different sources: Apple TV 4K and Nvidia Shield.
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post #8 of 78 Old 10-21-2017, 09:21 PM
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Guys . I have done some tests with my vw260. Here are the results.

Billy Lynn @ 4k 60fps HDR: minor banding. Can ignore.

Planet earth @ 4k 24fps HDR, still minor banding.

Fifa18 Xbox one s 4k(upscaled) 60fps HDR: seems no banding but image a hit dark

Forza 7 60fps HDR: minor banding can ignore

Forza horizon3, 60fps hdr? very severe banding? inaccurate color? unplayable to me. Even turning off HDR, I can still see a little banding in Forza horizon 3.

I think Sony really need to fix that...
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post #9 of 78 Old 10-21-2017, 09:22 PM
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One question, will the HDMI cable make a difference? ( Eg. Change to a fiber cable)?
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post #10 of 78 Old 10-21-2017, 10:37 PM
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Originally Posted by superallan10 View Post
One question, will the HDMI cable make a difference? ( Eg. Change to a fiber cable)?
No.

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post #11 of 78 Old 10-22-2017, 03:20 AM
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Just had more tests. I guess the banding is not caused by 4k 60fps HDR. I tried BF1 on Xbox one s, even turning off hdr?i can still see clear banding in the sky. HDR just makes it even worse.

So I think Sony might did something wrong with these beamers. Hopefully it can be corrected through firmware upgrade.
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post #12 of 78 Old 10-22-2017, 03:42 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by superallan10 View Post
Just had more tests. I guess the banding is not caused by 4k 60fps HDR. I tried BF1 on Xbox one s, even turning off hdr?i can still see clear banding in the sky. HDR just makes it even worse.

So I think Sony might did something wrong with these beamers. Hopefully it can be corrected through firmware upgrade.
Did you test 30fps? Can you limit that on the pj? Or the Xbox one?

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post #13 of 78 Old 10-22-2017, 03:49 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by christoffeldg View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by superallan10 View Post
Just had more tests. I guess the banding is not caused by 4k 60fps HDR. I tried BF1 on Xbox one s, even turning off hdr?i can still see clear banding in the sky. HDR just makes it even worse.

So I think Sony might did something wrong with these beamers. Hopefully it can be corrected through firmware upgrade.
Did you test 30fps? Can you limit that on the pj? Or the Xbox one?

Seems I cannot limit it at 30fps..
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post #14 of 78 Old 10-22-2017, 04:41 AM
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Originally Posted by Drastic380 View Post
Got kicked out of the owners threads cuz they don't want to talk about defects or issues there?
Since I am the one who asked you to move the conversation to this thread I guess I will respond. I am not a moderator, I am just a regular guy so feel free to post wherever you want whenever you want. The owners thread just seemed to be 90% banding talk so I was trying to get the banding talk to a centralized thread like they did for the JVC banding. "I am not the boss of you" nor am I trying to suppress the conversation overall

Quote:
Originally Posted by superallan10 View Post
Just had more tests. I guess the banding is not caused by 4k 60fps HDR. I tried BF1 on Xbox one s, even turning off hdr?i can still see clear banding in the sky. HDR just makes it even worse.

So I think Sony might did something wrong with these beamers. Hopefully it can be corrected through firmware upgrade.
There is widely reported banding in al kinds of threads (Oppo UHD player, flat panel TVs, projectors, gaming) so this is not a 385/285 isolated issue. Is it the source, is it the displays, is it the HDMI cable, something else???? Probably not one answer that fits 100% of use cases but for anybody that thinks this is isolated to the Sony machines I encourage you to search other threads. This conversation is happening all over the place.
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post #15 of 78 Old 10-22-2017, 08:47 AM
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Sorry to but in, but AFAIK (see below) this is part of the specifications of the new 260/360 Sony projectors.
With 4k 50p and 60p only 8 bits can be used so you get banding. With 24/25/30p this should not occur.
The video processing boards of the 260/360 have a limit of 12,6Gb/s.
If you want full 18Gb/s you have to go to the 760 (laser projector).
What I heard was that full 18Gb/s data stream from input to panel output would be a very expensive videoboard upgrade setting the pricepoint of these projectors back to few k$ more.
Don't mix the HDMI chipset with the full videoprocessing board. The e-shift JVC's might have 18Gb/s hdmi chipset (costing only a few $ a piece) but they throw out half the data right away so their videoprocessing board can be made much cheaper. Don't know all the details though but that was what I heard.


Quote:
Originally Posted by https://www.sony.nl/pro/product/projectors-homecinema/vpl-vw260es/specifications/#specifications
Video signal input
480/60p, 576/50p, 720/60p, 720/50p, 1080/60i, 1080/50i, 1080/60p, 1080/50p, 1080/24p, 3840 x 2160/24p, 3840 x 2160/25p, 3840 x 2160/30p, 3840 x 2160/50p*4, 3840 x 2160/60p*4, 4096 x 2160/24p, 4096 x 2160/25p, 4096 x 2160/30p, 4096 x 2160/50p*4, 4096 x 2160/60p*4


*4: YCbCr 4:2:0 / 8 bit
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post #16 of 78 Old 10-22-2017, 09:02 AM
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There is an easy controlled test to determine if source or projector.

Billy Lynn UHD $22 @ BB. This is a 4K/60 HDR movie, there is no banding in the source and has been verified on a number of different displays.

https://www.bestbuy.com/site/billy-l...?skuId=5709407

hook the player directly to the projector, skip to chapter 6, this is the first scene.


example of VW360(385) from the grobi.tv german review




This is how it should look, smooth with no obvious gradients in the sky.

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post #17 of 78 Old 10-22-2017, 01:06 PM
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Just wanted to let everyone know on this thread that Imagic is doing a review of the Sony 285. He said Sony told him it was 10 bit at 4K 60HZ and I pointed out to him that is not what the manual says. Should be interesting to see how this plays out as it sounds like he has access/contacts at Sony. His first test showed only 8 bit was available at 4k 60HZ.


Here is his new thread:
https://www.avsforum.com/forum/24-dig...projector.html
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post #18 of 78 Old 10-22-2017, 01:08 PM
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Can we drop this thread please? People are just forced to duplicate the same posts across 3 threads right now, extremely annoying.

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post #19 of 78 Old 10-22-2017, 01:39 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Drastic380 View Post
I'm going to call Sony (US) tomorrow and see what they say.

Archibald what country's Sony told you there is fix coming and what country's Sony told you that it is not fixable due to hardware?
Hi.
I can tell you that it is via a phone call in the UK that I was told by support that hardware limitations mean 10bit signal is reduced to 8 bit for display and a firmware update will not fix it.
All UK marketing etc still says 10bit incidentally, but some info has been changed fairly recently....
(So therefore it basically doesn't even hit the minimum spec to qualify as a 4K 60hz HDR signal, regardless of what the projector can pretend to accept).
Incidentally my dealer emailed me and said that Sony (presumably UK) told them, (and I paraphrase but you will get the jist) 'first we have heard of the issue, the unit must be defective'.
I must admit I had to 'laugh' when I read that!
As for the other country, it is in Europe, is all I can say.
Cheers.
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post #20 of 78 Old 10-22-2017, 01:44 PM
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Quote:
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Hi.
I can tell you that it is via a phone call in the UK that I was told by support that hardware limitations mean 10bit signal is reduced to 8 bit for display and a firmware update will not fix it.
All UK marketing etc still says 10bit incidentally, but some info has been changed fairly recently....
(So therefore it basically doesn't even hit the minimum spec to qualify as a 4K 60hz HDR signal, regardless of what the projector can pretend to accept).
Incidentally my dealer emailed me and said that Sony (presumably UK) told them, (and I paraphrase but you will get the jist) 'first we have heard of the issue, the unit must be defective'.
I must admit I had to 'laugh' when I read that!
As for the other country, it is in Europe, is all I can say.
Cheers.
Its about to get real interesting with Imagic doing his official AVS review as Sony also told him directly it work at 4K 60HZ HDR.
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post #21 of 78 Old 10-22-2017, 02:02 PM
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Its about to get real interesting with Imagic doing his official AVS review as Sony also told him directly it work at 4K 60HZ HDR.


Maybe we can stop telling users they are doing it wrong then

Or that certain people have agendas when discussing it.

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post #22 of 78 Old 10-22-2017, 02:15 PM
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Am I the only one who misses component cables? So much of this comes back to HDMI, period. It's a crap standard and always has been.
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post #23 of 78 Old 10-22-2017, 02:29 PM
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Am I the only one who misses component cables? So much of this comes back to HDMI, period. It's a crap standard and always has been.
1998 called and wants its 480p back
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post #24 of 78 Old 10-22-2017, 02:32 PM
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1998 called and wants its 480p back
I just bought a brand new S video cable so I can watch my new Aliens import Laser Disc!!!!
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post #25 of 78 Old 10-22-2017, 02:32 PM
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1998 called and wants its 480p back
Ha. Easy there.

Component is plenty capable of passing beyond 4K resolution. HDMI has failed at literally everything it was intended to do or it can be matched or exceeded by older tech. That's just a fact. HDMI as you know it now is nothing more than yet another versioned software platform. Welcome to never ending upgrades and incompatibilities between versions.

Anyone seen my component 2.4 cables? Oh... that's right.
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post #26 of 78 Old 10-22-2017, 02:36 PM
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Ha. Easy there.

Component is plenty capable of passing beyond 4K resolution. HDMI has failed at literally everything it was intended to do or it can be matched or exceeded by older tech. That's just a fact. HDMI as you know it now is nothing more than yet another versioned software platform. Welcome to never ending upgrades and incompatibilieis between versions.

Anyone seen my component 2.4 cables? Oh... that's right.
I am not sure I agree with you... These issues are with the display device not the cable.

Display port is where its at.

What people should be doing, and they are not, is literally chucking every HDMI 1.4 cable they have in the trash and buying only certified premium cables to replace them, if they have runs under 25ft they cost mere dollars from Monoprice, its what I did, bought 10 of them and had a big throw out of the old stuff, everything works flawlessly as long as the display device handles the resolution and bit rate you are throwing at it.

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I am not sure I agree with you...
1. Give me a single example of where HDMI outperforms a basic component cable.

2. Give me every example of something you do now with HDMI cables that you didn't do with component. No need to add "replace all of them" to the list. We already got that one in your last reply.
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post #28 of 78 Old 10-22-2017, 02:44 PM
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Actually, I thought of two just now.

Component cables didn't have CEC or an ethernet channel. Not that they couldn't have it now, but they didn't then.

Regardless, I use neither in HDMI today.
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post #29 of 78 Old 10-22-2017, 02:55 PM
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Originally Posted by Unacceptable View Post
1. Give me a single example of where HDMI outperforms a basic component cable.

2. Give me every example of something you do now with HDMI cables that you didn't do with component. No need to add "replace all of them" to the list. We already got that one in your last reply.
1:

Dolby True HD / Atmos / DTS-HD MA / DTS:X
Metadata: HDR (Requires Metadata) / Dolby Vision (Relies on frame by frame metadata to work)
HDCP (I hate this but its still a thing like it or not)

2:
Lossless Audio
PC Displays.

Do I need to go on?

I am aware that Component can carry 4k resolution, but we now have a on cable solution which is more immune for the most part to EFI and RFI like analogue cables are. I can have one input and out put on my processor rather than 6. I already have enough audio RCA cables for each channel, no need to add a further three for each video source. Gone are the days where we need 150 inputs/outputs on our amps.

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post #30 of 78 Old 10-22-2017, 02:56 PM
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Actually, I thought of two just now.

Component cables didn't have CEC or an ethernet channel. Not that they couldn't have it now, but they didn't then.

Regardless, I use neither in HDMI today.
I was going to mention Ethernet, but who uses that anyway

And CEC, I forgot about that one!
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