First Look: Sony VPL-VW285ES 4K HDR Projector - Page 9 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #241 of 842 Old 10-27-2017, 04:03 PM
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Originally Posted by Archibald1 View Post
Hi there.

Tone mapping is HDR on any consumer display.

No current TV can even do 1000nits any real justice and certainly not 4000! You need a SUPER expensive mastering monitor to see it in anything like the scope of brightness that is intended.

Tone mapping simply *must* take place on any current consumer display attempting to show HDR.

That is not the issue here though. It is 8bit masquerading as 10bit.



I don't care what they have to do to make it work (I always knew brightness for highlights etc would be limited on a projector), however if it simply isn't being displayed in full 10bit WCG as advertised, then it is just manipulated/spoofed SDR.



It is very simple from where I am sat.


Just want to nerd in a say Sony TV 940E and Z9D hit well over 1000 nits.

Still, not as immersive as 100” screen.

McIntosh Labs! What am I listening to?
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post #242 of 842 Old 10-27-2017, 04:16 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Archibald1 View Post
Hi there.
Tone mapping is HDR on any consumer display.
No current TV can even do 1000nits any real justice and certainly not 4000! You need a SUPER expensive mastering monitor to see it in anything like the scope of brightness that is intended.
Tone mapping simply *must* take place on any current consumer display attempting to show HDR.
That is not the issue here though. It is 8bit masquerading as 10bit.

I don't care what they have to do to make it work (I always knew brightness for highlights etc would be limited on a projector), however if it simply isn't being displayed in full 10bit WCG as advertised, then it is just manipulated/spoofed SDR.

It is very simple from where I am sat.
Who told you that no TV can do 1000 nits justice? That's an exaggeration.

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post #243 of 842 Old 10-27-2017, 04:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by oOOBillO0o View Post
Just want to nerd in a say Sony TV 940E and Z9D hit well over 1000 nits. https://youtu.be/UECcjZrRtWA

Still, not as immersive as 100” screen.
He didn’t understand the difference between WCG shrinking because of tone mapping due to a 10 bit to 8 bit conversion and was associating HDR with brightness only which a lot of folks do. He has an 8 bit conventional set that processes out any banding however he still loses the WCG. He just wants the banding fixed and doesn’t care how it gets done.

See, I’m a man of the people.

Checking out NetFlix right now for their 60hz 2160 HDR content. Flawless. First episode first season of Stranger Things 32:30 mark is a sun shot. Perfect. (385 though.)
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post #244 of 842 Old 10-27-2017, 04:37 PM
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Originally Posted by TheBrandon View Post
He didn’t understand the difference between WCG shrinking because of tone mapping due to a 10 bit to 8 bit conversion and was associating HDR with brightness only which a lot of folks do. He has an 8 bit conventional set that processes out any banding however he still loses the WCG. He just wants the banding fixed and doesn’t care how it gets done.



See, I’m a man of the people.



Checking out NetFlix right now for their 60hz 2160 HDR content. Flawless. First episode first season of Stranger Things 32:30 mark is a sun shot. Perfect. (385 though.)

You lost me.

The Sony VPL-VW385ES is or isn't subject to the same 4:2:0 10bit issue found in the 285ES?


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post #245 of 842 Old 10-27-2017, 05:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by oOOBillO0o View Post
You lost me.

The Sony VPL-VW385ES is or isn't subject to the same 4:2:0 10bit issue found in the 285ES?


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Can’t speak for the 285ES but with the 385ES I have had to look hard for banding in video. I’ve been testing Netflix streaming, 4K, HDR, 60hz the last few hours and its been a ridiculous effort. Here is what I shared in the 385ES Owners Thread.

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Here is a Netflix 4k 60hz HDR shot. Look at the clouds on the left for banding. Only under perfect conditions is this noticeable. I ran through a complete episode of Stranger Things. Couldn't find one. Had to go through 2 episodes of Ozarks to find this. I love the picture this throws and don't regret for a second picking it up. If banding happens on something I have to look for in less than .1% of viewing time on the perfect scene I'll happily coup.
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post #246 of 842 Old 10-27-2017, 06:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheBrandon View Post
He didn’t understand the difference between WCG shrinking because of tone mapping due to a 10 bit to 8 bit conversion and was associating HDR with brightness only which a lot of folks do. He has an 8 bit conventional set that processes out any banding however he still loses the WCG. He just wants the banding fixed and doesn’t care how it gets done.
Hi. ‘He’ here.
What has my so called 8bit Philips tv, (that passes all the 8bit/10bit quantisation patterns btw) have to do with this?
Also, let’s assume that tv *is* doing 8bit trickery.... why can I forgive it?
1: The resulting picture is truly great
2: It cost 3.79% of the cost of my projector, and I really can forgive a few creative engineering shortcuts on it for that reason alone!

Yes, I and many others do want it fixed. It will be interesting to see if is can be.
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post #247 of 842 Old 10-27-2017, 07:41 PM
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This thread is playing out like a mystery novel. It's got me on the edge of my seat waiting for the final response from Mark! lol.
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post #248 of 842 Old 10-28-2017, 12:07 AM
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Nice Mark! Im growing more and more impressed with this projector. At first I was disappointed with the lumen spec but I think its gunna be a great projector. I have a 125' diagonal 16:9 AT screen with .8 gain so am curious if this would light up my screen as much or more then my HW-40ES that has a similar lumen rating and I happen to find more then enough light. Am curious what HDR would look like on a screen my size with this PJ as soon ill be in the market for a 4K HDR PJ. Looking forward to more testimony

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post #249 of 842 Old 10-28-2017, 01:27 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Frohlich View Post
Sorry if I wasn't clear. I am comparing machines like true 4K Sony 285/385 versus high end JVC eshift such as JVC x990/RS640. So the comment was eshift vs true 4K panels
What content are you planning on comparing for a native 4k vs eshift? Some thoughts (probably been debated forever but!)
not many UHD's have 4k detail. Transformers and Bourne are probably the best so far but the best ones to use would be the Peru 8K HDR demo (at 4k)
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post #250 of 842 Old 10-28-2017, 01:28 AM
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Originally Posted by oOOBillO0o View Post
Just want to nerd in a say Sony TV 940E and Z9D hit well over 1000 nits. https://youtu.be/UECcjZrRtWA

Still, not as immersive as 100” screen.
That has a 100" version. Probably the same price as a JVC Laser and way better - only £55k in the UK!

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post #251 of 842 Old 10-28-2017, 06:00 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by oOOBillO0o View Post
Just want to nerd in a say Sony TV 940E and Z9D hit well over 1000 nits. https://youtu.be/UECcjZrRtWA

Still, not as immersive as 100” screen.
Hi.
I did say 'no current display can really do 1000 nitsjustice, but maybe I should have qualified it a little more.

Point is, the HDR standard is up to 10,000 nits if I am not mistaken and it will be a long time before anyone has a screen that is that bright and will need no tone mapping whatsoever to realise the image as intended!

Even tone mapping to a 4000 nit title on an LED TV will require much mapping wizardry and plenty of clipping at the current state of play with consumer displays.

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post #252 of 842 Old 10-28-2017, 07:28 AM
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I'll be completely honest, my next projector will probably be my last one. As far as I know, oled is very cheap to manufacture in big screen sizes. Once the yields are better i expect my next screen will be a big oled.
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post #253 of 842 Old 10-28-2017, 07:44 AM
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Originally Posted by christoffeldg View Post
I'll be completely honest, my next projector will probably be my last one. As far as I know, oled is very cheap to manufacture in big screen sizes. Once the yields are better i expect my next screen will be a big oled.
The 77” oleds are certainly not cheap now. Hoping them come down a lot!
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post #254 of 842 Old 10-28-2017, 07:50 AM
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Originally Posted by christoffeldg View Post
I'll be completely honest, my next projector will probably be my last one. As far as I know, oled is very cheap to manufacture in big screen sizes. Once the yields are better i expect my next screen will be a big oled.
I have started thinking about this myself. Not sure how realistic it is to get 100+ inch OLED in reasonably price range in the near future but if they do start to come out in a reasonable price range, they will definitely start eating into the projector market. The one challenge is a lot of projector owners (myself included), like acoustically transparent screens so that will be something flat panels can not overcome.
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post #255 of 842 Old 10-28-2017, 08:31 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Frohlich View Post
I have started thinking about this myself. Not sure how realistic it is to get 100+ inch OLED in reasonably price range in the near future but if they do start to come out in a reasonable price range, they will definitely start eating into the projector market. The one challenge is a lot of projector owners (myself included), like acoustically transparent screens so that will be something flat panels can not overcome.
Anyone who thinks projection screen-sized OLEDs (100" plus) will cost less than at least fancy car (or more likely a small house) anytime soon is probably going to be disappointed.
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Anyone who thinks projection screen-sized OLEDs (100" plus) will cost less than at least fancy car (or more likely a small house) anytime soon is probably going to be disappointed.
I saw a notification on my phone that @imagic had posted in this thread and I almost had a heart attack. :P
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post #257 of 842 Old 10-28-2017, 09:09 AM - Thread Starter
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I saw a notification on my phone that @imagic had posted in this thread and I almost had a heart attack. :P
Imagine that, me, posting in my own thread. I'm just a wild and crazy guy.

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post #258 of 842 Old 10-28-2017, 10:10 AM
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Imagine that, me, posting in my own thread. I'm just a wild and crazy guy.
Hi Mark,

I think it would help a lot of us to at least understand the Sony 285/385 capabilities if we could get a final confirmation from Sony regarding whether the projectors have to convert to 8 bit when dealing with 4k 60Hz 10 bit HDR. It sounds like the units have to convert to 8bit and tone map in order to reduce the effects of banding. We have a lot of smart people on this forum but most of us are not specifically electrical engineers with a specialty in display panel / display chain electronics and HDR.

Sony should be able to answer this as easy as sending a quick email.

The second and probably longer term question would be if they can't display full 10 bit HDR is there a "fix" that can reduce the banding we have seen?

Thanks again for using your contacts to help us understand the capabilities of the new Sonys!

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post #259 of 842 Old 10-28-2017, 10:37 AM - Thread Starter
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Hi Mark,

I think it would help a lot of us to at least understand the Sony 285/385 capabilities if we could get a final confirmation from Sony regarding whether the projectors have to convert to 8 bit when dealing with 4k 60Hz 10 bit HDR. It sounds like the units have to convert to 8bit and tone map in order to reduce the effects of banding. We have a lot of smart people on this forum but most of us are not specifically electrical engineers with a specialty in display panel / display chain electronics and HDR.

The second and probably longer term question would be if they can't display full 10 bit HDR is there a "fix" that can reduce the banding we have seen?

Thanks again for using your contacts to help us understand the capabilities of the new Sonys!
We'll have more info soon, I am back in the U.S. now, landed an hour ago. And this coming week I will work on the projector plus get info about source compatibiltiy from Sony to share.

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post #260 of 842 Old 10-28-2017, 10:37 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by farsider3000 View Post
Hi Mark,

I think it would help a lot of us to at least understand the Sony 285/385 capabilities if we could get a final confirmation from Sony regarding whether the projectors have to convert to 8 bit when dealing with 4k 60Hz 10 bit HDR. It sounds like the units have to convert to 8bit and tone map in order to reduce the effects of banding. We have a lot of smart people on this forum but most of us are not specifically electrical engineers with a specialty in display panel / display chain electronics and HDR.

The second and probably longer term question would be if they can't display full 10 bit HDR is there a "fix" that can reduce the banding we have seen?

Thanks again for using your contacts to help us understand the capabilities of the new Sonys!
Use a device like an Oppo to set up specifically 4K 60P 4:2:0 10 bit and feed directly into the projector Billy Lynn Long Walk Home. Then check the Sony info screen to see what it is displaying. If it is 8 bit, then projector is converting it to 8 bit, because 4K 60P 4:2:0 10 bit is under 13.5Gbps, that the Sony can accept. I would try it with HDR enable and disabled. If it does drop it to 8 bit, then the question becomes, what can Sony do about it?
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post #261 of 842 Old 10-28-2017, 12:07 PM - Thread Starter
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Use a device like an Oppo to set up specifically 4K 60P 4:2:0 10 bit and feed directly into the projector Billy Lynn Long Walk Home. Then check the Sony info screen to see what it is displaying. If it is 8 bit, then projector is converting it to 8 bit, because 4K 60P 4:2:0 10 bit is under 13.5Gbps, that the Sony can accept. I would try it with HDR enable and disabled. If it does drop it to 8 bit, then the question becomes, what can Sony do about it?
Mike, I don't see where bit depth is reported in the info screen:


Although I'm back from my trip, I'm taking the weekend off. I will grab Billy Lynns' Long Halftime Walk at some point soon (I need it as a reference disc anyhow) and on Monday I'll ping Sony to see how things are going with the experiments using various sources and a signal analyzer.

With a PS4 Pro running Horizon Zero Dawn, the projector reports 60p 10-bit 4:2:0 HDR despite the presence of banding but the bit depth is not clear...

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post #262 of 842 Old 10-28-2017, 12:13 PM
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Originally Posted by imagic View Post
Mike, I don't see where bit depth is reported in the info screen:


Although I'm back from my trip, I'm taking the weekend off. I will grab Billy Lynns' Long Halftime Walk at some point soon (I need it as a reference disc anyhow) and on Monday I'll ping Sony to see how things are going with the experiments using various sources and a signal analyzer.

With a PS4 Pro running Horizon Zero Dawn, the projector reports 60p 10-bit 4:2:0 HDR despite the presence of banding but the bit depth is not clear...

Eddited
Just noticed it is not reporting bit depth, so we can't determine what it is doing. I do not feel optamistic about this.
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post #263 of 842 Old 10-28-2017, 12:21 PM
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Eddited
Just noticed it is not reporting bit depth, so we can't determine what it is doing. I do not feel optamistic about this.
The Sony displays what input it receives, even if that is 10 bits which can be handled by the 13,6Gb/s it says nothing about what the processing board makes of it and sends to the panels.


AFAIK the bottleneck is in the processingboards (hardware limitation) and not in the HDMI chipset.
I guess to be continued when we get an official statement from Sony.
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Mike, I don't see where bit depth is reported in the info screen:


Although I'm back from my trip, I'm taking the weekend off. I will grab Billy Lynns' Long Halftime Walk at some point soon (I need it as a reference disc anyhow) and on Monday I'll ping Sony to see how things are going with the experiments using various sources and a signal analyzer.

With a PS4 Pro running Horizon Zero Dawn, the projector reports 60p 10-bit 4:2:0 HDR despite the presence of banding but the bit depth is not clear...

What does that same scene look like if you run it in SDR? Is it possible to select that? I'm curious to see if there is banding.

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post #265 of 842 Old 10-28-2017, 12:36 PM - Thread Starter
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What does that same scene look like if you run it in SDR? Is it possible to select that? I'm curious to see if there is banding.

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It looks smooth in SDR.




Also the PS4 reports a good connection...


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post #266 of 842 Old 10-28-2017, 12:39 PM
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It looks smooth in SDR.



That is my exact experience when I force the Oppo into 4k 60HZ on UHD blu ray movies. HDR on and I can see banding in certain scenes. Same scenes with SDR (HDR off) look just fine.
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post #267 of 842 Old 10-28-2017, 01:03 PM
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That is my exact experience when I force the Oppo into 4k 60HZ on UHD blu ray movies. HDR on and I can see banding in certain scenes. Same scenes with SDR (HDR off) look just fine.
Part of the HDR spec is 10 bit. What is most likely happening is the device is displaying what it is receiving in the info, not what it is doing with the signal. With HDR off, you are not getting WCG with PS4 Pro. With HDR, you are getting WCG but spatial dithering which these seem to be struggling with under worse case scenarios. The problem for PS4 Pro guys, I do not believe these projectors accept HDR 1080p. For those wanting to know why it matters, if they could process that, it would mean you could use 1080p down sampling with HDR and WCG allowing the projector to upscale to 4k.

Funny how the owners manuals all literally say, 50hz/60hz 8 bit for 4K. So ask yourself, how an 8 bit panel or any 8 bit step in the signal path reproduce\display HDR 10 bit image? Spatial dithering. What I am most curious about is if its possible to measure color range with 4K 60hz material. This should identify right off the bat what’s happening. No 10 bit, not expanded color range. The One S has color patterns built in and I believe you can kill 24hz, well everything except 60hz.
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post #268 of 842 Old 10-28-2017, 01:28 PM - Thread Starter
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Since Sony's statement will have to wait for the weekend to end, and I'm beat from 17 hours of continuous travel (4 hours in cars, 13 hours in a plane), I'm going to go play some GTA 5 on the 285ES (since it's an SDR game) and enjoy a beer before the jet lag hits me.

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post #269 of 842 Old 10-28-2017, 01:32 PM
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Originally Posted by imagic View Post
Since Sony's statement will have to wait for the weekend to end, and I'm beat from 17 hours of continuous travel (4 hours in cars, 13 hours in a plane) I'm going to go play some GTA 5 on the 285ES(since it's SDR) and enjoy a beer before the jet lag hits me.
No way get back to work!! :-D

Video: Sony VPL-VW760ES, Elite screen Aeon 135" Cinewhite + JVC X7900, Magicscreen Reference ALR 120"
Speakers: Bowers and Wilkins 802 D3 front, JBL 580, JBL 520c, JBL 550p
Amplifiers: Lyngdorf stereo TDAI 2170, Lyngdorf SDA 2400, Denon 4300H Home Theatre
Equipment: PC/PS4/Xbox One/Switch/Synology 2415+
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post #270 of 842 Old 10-28-2017, 01:35 PM - Thread Starter
Mark Henninger
 
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Originally Posted by christoffeldg View Post
No way get back to work!! :-D
It killed me that I had no time to watch the fully calibrated projector before the trip. But I'm gonna fix that now! And tomorrow I'll "evaluate" how the Eagles game looks.

Mark Henninger
Editor, AVS Forum

Last edited by imagic; 10-28-2017 at 01:39 PM.
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