The Great JVC vs. Sony Projector Shootout - Dec. 9 and 10 - No price talk, please! - Page 24 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #691 of 729 Old 03-20-2018, 10:02 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by mustang5o View Post
Well I know that the HDR settings in the older models were a best guess at the time and from what I've read don't look very good at all. So yes, I've been looking into the Arve Tool and Javs custom curves. So then I would save those into a preset and just have to select it manually or program it into a universal remote as you did? My understanding of the Vertex is that it can be setup to tell the JVC to choose a different mode automatically.
Exactly, re: the new curves vs. the initial settings

Yes, exactly correct on saving the new curves into a preset. Not up on the Vertex - looks like I need to look into it!

EDIT: Didn't realize the Vertex was the HD Fury piece. Checking this out...

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post #692 of 729 Old 03-20-2018, 10:32 AM - Thread Starter
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Spoke to a contact at JVC - they have not tried the Vertex yet. The understanding is that it simply strips the HDR metadata, so if anything it require a few more tweaks to the preset.

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post #693 of 729 Old 03-20-2018, 10:45 AM
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Originally Posted by John Schuermann View Post
Spoke to a contact at JVC - they have not tried the Vertex yet. The understanding is that it simply strips the HDR metadata, so if anything it require a few more tweaks to the preset.
Beyond stripping the metadata, it can select the appropriate user mode on the JVC (via RS232) based on the metadata it received.
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post #694 of 729 Old 03-20-2018, 10:57 AM - Thread Starter
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Beyond stripping the metadata, it can select the appropriate user mode on the JVC (via RS232) based on the metadata it received.
Interesting...

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post #695 of 729 Old 03-21-2018, 07:45 PM
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Doesn't sound like I'll be getting a good enough price on the 750 to warrant buying it and then buying a Vertex or something to help out. Plus then I'd lose on some of the other newer upgrades. I think I'll just hold out for a 990\640.

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post #696 of 729 Old 03-27-2018, 05:50 AM
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If i may ask, what content was used to compare the projectors? Especially the jvc rs640 vs sony 385es? Sorry if it was already mentioned.

Thanks
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post #697 of 729 Old 03-27-2018, 01:01 PM - Thread Starter
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If i may ask, what content was used to compare the projectors? Especially the jvc rs640 vs sony 385es? Sorry if it was already mentioned.

Thanks
Most of what you are looking for can be found by clicking on this post:

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/24-dig...l#post55761870

Demo discs we used:

Planet Earth II
Sully
Guardians of the Galaxy II
Sicario
Spiderman Homecoming


A few others that escape me at the moment...

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post #698 of 729 Old 03-27-2018, 01:04 PM
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Originally Posted by John Schuermann View Post
Most of what you are looking for can be found by clicking on this post:

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/24-dig...l#post55761870

Demo discs we used:

Planet Earth II
Sully
Guardians of the Galaxy II
Sicario
Spiderman Homecoming


A few others that escape me at the moment...
Thank you very much for the reply! That's good to know there was some very good content to compare them!
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post #699 of 729 Old 03-29-2018, 06:57 PM
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Some folks are just much more sensitive to properly done motion. You seem to be in that camp and the sony has a clear advantage over JVC with that in mind. You have to choose your battles. Contrast/black floor lovers have always needed to venture towards the JVC camp, with Motion/Native folks heading more towards Sony. Decide which one is more important and don't question it This likely wont be changing in the near future anyways. I for one appreciate that you felt the Sony "285" was clearly better, and it takes courage to be the one that is falling on the other side of the popular opinion. Don't let other's being heavily weighted the other direction sway your opinion by any means...
I can see motion blur when the camera pans on my RS40. Is this something only certain people are sensitive to, or just a fault of the older RS40 projector? I'm debating between a 640 and a 385. In my current setup with an OPPO 203, I had to turn off the 24 frame, because I was seeing flicker, but I guess that is different than being sensitive to motion?
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post #700 of 729 Old 04-03-2018, 01:30 PM
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Originally Posted by ay221 View Post
I can see motion blur when the camera pans on my RS40. Is this something only certain people are sensitive to, or just a fault of the older RS40 projector? I'm debating between a 640 and a 385. In my current setup with an OPPO 203, I had to turn off the 24 frame, because I was seeing flicker, but I guess that is different than being sensitive to motion?
Dunno. To each his own really. Your best bet is to try and demo them both if you are able to. Use the frame interpolation stuff to your advantage until you find out which suits you best...

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post #701 of 729 Old 04-03-2018, 05:26 PM
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Since my current projector didn't bother too bad, I went with another JVC, the 640. I like blacker blacks anyways.
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post #702 of 729 Old 04-10-2018, 05:40 PM - Thread Starter
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Something to keep in mind - often when people are looking at images critically they mistake normal 24P movie motion blur for a problem in the display. The fact is that normal motion pictures blur substantially during pans and the like - it's a limitation that comes with shooting films at 24 frames per second.

Fun fact - the only reason films were shot at 24 frames per second is that it was the least number of frames per second filmmakers could use before flicker became noticeable during projection. Film stock was very expensive, so it was a matter of using as little of it as possible. We've been stuck with all the motion problems of 24P ever since.

Problem is, everyone is so used to it now that higher frame rates look "less natural" to most people - the dreaded "soap opera" effect. I've often said high frame rates make movies look like what they really are - actors on soundstages. The artifice becomes more pronounced (see the 60P version of BILLY LYNN'S LONG HALFTIME WALK to get a sense of what I mean).
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post #703 of 729 Old 04-11-2018, 10:48 AM
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Something to keep in mind - often when people are looking at images critically they mistake normal 24P movie motion blur for a problem in the display. The fact is that normal motion pictures blur substantially during pans and the like - it's a limitation that comes with shooting films at 24 frames per second.

Fun fact - the only reason films were shot at 24 frames per second is that it was the least number of frames per second filmmakers could use before flicker became noticeable during projection. Film stock was very expensive, so it was a matter of using as little of it as possible. We've been stuck with all the motion problems of 24P ever since.

Problem is, everyone is so used to it now that higher frame rates look "less natural" to most people - the dreaded "soap opera" effect. I've often said high frame rates make movies look like what they really are - actors on soundstages. The artifice becomes more pronounced (see the 60P version of BILLY LYNN'S LONG HALFTIME WALK to get a sense of what I mean).
Indeed about 24fps yet so many people wrongly defend it as being an artistic choice when it was all about $$$. I love hfr.
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post #704 of 729 Old 04-11-2018, 11:12 AM
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Indeed about 24fps yet so many people wrongly defend it as being an artistic choice when it was all about $$$. I love hfr.
I disdain Hfr personally. And yes it still is an artistic choice amongst many directors, I know a ton of them, they also hate Hfr for the most part, you also get into things like shutter speeds/angles etc and they are also highly aware of those and are carefully considered.

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post #705 of 729 Old 04-11-2018, 12:18 PM
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I disdain Hfr personally. And yes it still is an artistic choice amongst many directors, I know a ton of them, they also hate Hfr for the most part, you also get into things like shutter speeds/angles etc and they are also highly aware of those and are carefully considered.
Sure its part of the "we are used to it" mentality..nothing else..no advantage and a slide show for people like me. Enjoy
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post #706 of 729 Old 04-11-2018, 12:39 PM
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Sure its part of the "we are used to it" mentality..nothing else..no advantage and a slide show for people like me. Enjoy
I find it funny how polarizing the opinions on Hfr are. Personally, just like you will always use it if I have it available. I might not use it to the 100% level, and usually end up at a somewhat "Medium" type option, but I absolutely can't stand standard 24p presentation either. To each his own...
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post #707 of 729 Old 04-12-2018, 10:42 AM
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When will RUN lasers hitnmain stream?
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post #708 of 729 Old 04-12-2018, 10:43 AM
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Sorry I'm not seeing an edit I mean to say RGB lasers when will they be main stream?
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post #709 of 729 Old 04-12-2018, 12:04 PM
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Sorry I'm not seeing an edit I mean to say RGB lasers when will they be main stream?
RGB laser projectors may actually get beat out by micro-LED tiled panels. Such panels can far outperform projection for brightness, black level from the screen, and HDR. One hitch may be the audio advantage of being able to locate speakers behind a perforated projection screen.

I assume you are talking about home use. It seems more likely that most home systems will favor the flat panel approach over projection. The cost for RGB laser projection is quite high on the pro side. The only such projectors I'm aware of in commercial cinemas in my area are found in four AMC Dolby Cinemas in the Denver Metro area. The next closest are in KC, Dallas, and Phoenix, last I checked. They are used in stacked pairs to reach the Dolby Cinema peak light output level, which is 30 fL/ 100 nits. Here's a decent article you may find helpful: https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/hdr-c...opher-mullins/ .
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post #710 of 729 Old 04-12-2018, 01:23 PM - Thread Starter
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I hate HFR too - again, to me the artifice of film becomes highly noticeable, as the video-like image becomes more life-like and less "otherwordly." Suddenly things like the film score, sound design and anything other than completely naturalistic acting styles start pulling me "out" of the movie - I'm aware of the manipulations and affectations for what they are.

For example, in BILLY LYNN there is a bit where one of the characters answers his cell phone, and the rest of the soundtrack is dialed out so we can focus in on the sound of the phone call itself. In a normal movie, this would not bother me at all, but when it looks like video footage - and more like real life - the dialing out of the background sounds just seems jarring. As films look more and more like "real life," certain filmmaking techniques just seem that much more artificial.

That said, I absolutely concede the technical superiority of high frame rate for capturing moving images.

To each their own...

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post #711 of 729 Old 04-20-2018, 09:14 AM
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Yep... So, it's a camera limitations then... and that's why i think movies where the background is rendered by computers are so much better... like gravity, or avatar, etc...

But I am sure they can have a way to clean it up via computers no?
It's called bokeh, and camera lenses that have a fixed focal range and high aperture settings produce this effect, on purpose. Wide angle lenses usually try to focus on everything and are normally used in landscape photography. Producing bokeh in an image make you focus on what the photographer wants you to focus on.

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post #712 of 729 Old 04-20-2018, 11:28 AM
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And that's why you see so many reviews saying that the JVC eshifts are as good as the true 4k of the sonys... It's because the content isn't truly 4K... And why upscaled 2K looks almost identical to actual 4K of the same movie...

I guess, it'll take 3-5 years before you see truly shot in, mastered in, processed in 4k source materials for block buster movies... right now, it just cost too much to do much of the CGI effects in 4K... it's costing too much for them to do it in 2K in the first place...
Movies have been shot in 4k for a LONG time, but in post production, the content is scaled down. When we were shooting The Big Short, Adam McKay (the director) chose to use a Red 6k camera. Today, some films, like Guardians of the Galaxy 2, was shot with Red's 8k Weapon. When shooting RAW 8k video footage at 24fps with 16 bit color, the video file is approximately 1.6 GB per second of video. No one has difficulty shooting content in ultra high resolution. The problem is how are you going to deliver it to the consumer? Luckily, Blu-ray disks can't hold much more content than DVD could, but when you think about the size of the video content, an hour of RAW 8k video like I mentioned would be almost 6 TB an hour. Blu-ray disks only hold 50GB of content, and then you have the whole bandwidth issue. An 18Gbps HDMI can't even come close to handling this content, so it's compressed. Today, our limitations are in the hardware required to view the content.

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post #713 of 729 Old 05-10-2018, 06:14 PM
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I've done a decent amount of reading in this thread but can't find an opinion of the higher end Sony vs the lower end JVC? Does the price difference bring about a noticeably better image?
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post #714 of 729 Old 05-11-2018, 04:19 PM
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HFR is one of the innovations I've been waiting for, for ages now. 24FPS is very hard to watch, the moment any action occurs, it becomes very difficult to follow what's going on because the framerate can't catch up with the action. That's extremely annoying.

24FPS only works in very slow moving movies, with a lot of dialogues and low movement shots. Everything else feels like an absolute mess.

I play a lot of games so I've long been used to 60FPS, and the motion sharpness is really necessary if you want to get a grip on what's happening in more chaotic/faster scenes.
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post #715 of 729 Old 05-12-2018, 11:20 AM - Thread Starter
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I've done a decent amount of reading in this thread but can't find an opinion of the higher end Sony vs the lower end JVC? Does the price difference bring about a noticeably better image?
We didn't do much comparing of those two models directly, since they are at wildly different price points. However, I can make the following observations based on having them around for quite a while:

The Sony VW285, 385, and 885 all share the exact same lens and SXRD panels. The advantages of the VW885, then, are due to the laser light engine and the fact that it will accept 18Gbps inputs. The laser light engine with its higher lumen output certainly brings more "pop" and wow to the image, and the colors look purer as well. I believe it also allows the 885 to edge closer to the P3 / DCI color gamut.

As far as the lower end JVC (I assume you mean the RS640), it actually was better than any of the other projectors (including the RS4500) when it came to black level and contrast. On the other hand, it's not quite as crisp as the two laser based projectors and its optics can't compare to the RS4500.

We did another shootout this past week between the RS640 and the RS4500. Once again I was struck by the "purity" of the RS4500's image - colors, whites and the overall image look "cleaner" than the RS640, while at the same time the RS640 had noticeably better black levels in torture test scenes.
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post #716 of 729 Old 05-12-2018, 05:26 PM
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I've done a decent amount of reading in this thread but can't find an opinion of the higher end Sony vs the lower end JVC? Does the price difference bring about a noticeably better image?
I think the price gives away how they compare to each other. Although the higher you go, the less value you get in return.

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post #717 of 729 Old 05-13-2018, 01:35 PM
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Originally Posted by John Schuermann View Post
We didn't do much comparing of those two models directly, since they are at wildly different price points. However, I can make the following observations based on having them around for quite a while:

The Sony VW285, 385, and 885 all share the exact same lens and SXRD panels. The advantages of the VW885, then, are due to the laser light engine and the fact that it will accept 18Gbps inputs. The laser light engine with its higher lumen output certainly brings more "pop" and wow to the image, and the colors look purer as well. I believe it also allows the 885 to edge closer to the P3 / DCI color gamut.

As far as the lower end JVC (I assume you mean the RS640), it actually was better than any of the other projectors (including the RS4500) when it came to black level and contrast. On the other hand, it's not quite as crisp as the two laser based projectors and its optics can't compare to the RS4500.

We did another shootout this past week between the RS640 and the RS4500. Once again I was struck by the "purity" of the RS4500's image - colors, whites and the overall image look "cleaner" than the RS640, while at the same time the RS640 had noticeably better black levels in torture test scenes.
That's probably the deciding factor for me. Blacks are the be all and end all for me when it comes to deciding on a TV/Projector. So would you say the RS640 has the best blacks currently available for a projector?

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I think the price gives away how they compare to each other. Although the higher you go, the less value you get in return.
Mate, loving the gear in your sig, do you have photos of your set up?
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post #718 of 729 Old 05-13-2018, 01:44 PM
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Sure its part of the "we are used to it" mentality..nothing else..no advantage and a slide show for people like me. Enjoy
Completely agree. No real reason not to depict movement more realistically these days.
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post #719 of 729 Old 05-13-2018, 01:51 PM
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That's probably the deciding factor for me. Blacks are the be all and end all for me when it comes to deciding on a TV/Projector. So would you say the RS640 has the best blacks currently available for a projector?
I think so. The JVC blacks from RS600, RS620, RS640 seem to be about the same and are about the best you can get on a projector. You might also get lucky and get an RS540 that performs about as well black wise.
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post #720 of 729 Old 05-13-2018, 02:27 PM - Thread Starter
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We didn't do much comparing of those two models directly, since they are at wildly different price points. However, I can make the following observations based on having them around for quite a while:

The Sony VW285, 385, and 885 all share the exact same lens and SXRD panels. The advantages of the VW885, then, are due to the laser light engine and the fact that it will accept 18Gbps inputs. The laser light engine with its higher lumen output certainly brings more "pop" and wow to the image, and the colors look purer as well. I believe it also allows the 885 to edge closer to the P3 / DCI color gamut.

As far as the lower end JVC (I assume you mean the RS640), it actually was better than any of the other projectors (including the RS4500) when it came to black level and contrast. On the other hand, it's not quite as crisp as the two laser based projectors and its optics can't compare to the RS4500.

We did another shootout this past week between the RS640 and the RS4500. Once again I was struck by the "purity" of the RS4500's image - colors, whites and the overall image look "cleaner" than the RS640, while at the same time the RS640 had noticeably better black levels in torture test scenes.
That's probably the deciding factor for me. Blacks are the be all and end all for me when it comes to deciding on a TV/Projector. So would you say the RS640 has the best blacks currently available for a projector?
I'd say without a doubt, with the RS540 bringing up a close second.
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