Improving Madvr HDR to SDR mapping for projector - Page 171 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #5101 of 9401 Old 02-13-2019, 05:21 AM
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With ignore pixels above 100 enabled 23 seems to work for scene detection, although I'm not sure if this gives better scene detection of just different scene detection.
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post #5102 of 9401 Old 02-13-2019, 06:58 AM
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Found one video (that I can't share) where ignoring pixels above 100 doesn't work well at all. So I think we need to trash that option/idea, unfortunately.
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post #5103 of 9401 Old 02-13-2019, 09:45 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by madshi View Post
This was caused by the "minimum chapter duration" at value 0 not being completely turned off, for some reason. I've fixed that now.

However, now with the fix applies, this scene looks totally awful, IMHO, with "minimum chapter duration" set to 0. I think this is a good scene to show that a small "minimum chapter duration" value might be beneficial. Dexter suggested 100. What do you think?
I have to agree it looks totally awful, but at least now it is working as intended

The value of 100 is in ms? That could be ok since sometimes gunfires last for more than 1 frame (~42 [email protected] fps).

Quote:
Originally Posted by madshi View Post
2) Scene detection can now optionally ignore pixels above 100nits. Does that help?
It helps for some cases, but not for Fury Road at 10:55 to 10:58, the lum changes was 25.44% before and is 25.38% now

So it won't help to lower the threshold, and it can just cause less real scene to be detected.

Going to test the brightness speeds now

Last edited by Neo-XP; 02-13-2019 at 10:32 AM.
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post #5104 of 9401 Old 02-13-2019, 10:58 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Neo-XP View Post
I have to agree it looks totally awful, but at least now it is working as intended

The value of 100 is in ms? That could be ok since sometimes gunfires last for more than 1 frame (~42 [email protected] fps).
Yes, that's 100ms. So a scene must be at least 3 frames long for 24fps video to quality as a scene. Or you could put in 140ms for 4 frames. Might be worth trying to find the ideal value there. Dexter said 250ms was too much. So is 100ms ideal? Or maybe something in between?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Neo-XP View Post
It helps for some cases, but not for Fury Road at 10:55 to 10:58, the lum changes was 25.44% before and is 25.38% now

So it won't help to lower the threshold, and it can just cause less real scene to be detected.
Yeah, let's forget about that option.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Neo-XP View Post
Going to test the brightness speeds now
Looking forward to your results! It feels to me that 1000 as 800% seems faster than 1000 for "fast" did in the old build, but maybe I'm wrong? I think 1000 might be too fast now?
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post #5105 of 9401 Old 02-13-2019, 11:54 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by madshi View Post
Yes, that's 100ms. So a scene must be at least 3 frames long for 24fps video to quality as a scene. Or you could put in 140ms for 4 frames. Might be worth trying to find the ideal value there. Dexter said 250ms was too much. So is 100ms ideal? Or maybe something in between?
With 1 ms:



With 100 ms:



The cut to the next scene is missed with 100 ms.

Worse, it then causes a big brightness jump, because there is a camera movement with 28.36% lum changes:



Even 100 ms can be dangerous, so I set it to 1 just to avoid the target reset between each gunfire.

Quote:
Originally Posted by madshi View Post
Looking forward to your results! It feels to me that 1000 as 800% seems faster than 1000 for "fast" did in the old build, but maybe I'm wrong? I think 1000 might be too fast now?
For now:


I increased the scene change threshold and it should be safe now (back to the original value).

This scene may need a little speed push though:



But it should be ok following the same formula: speed = diff / 2 = ~500 in this case.
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Last edited by Neo-XP; 02-13-2019 at 12:01 PM.
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post #5106 of 9401 Old 02-13-2019, 02:07 PM
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@Neo-XP I don't have this movie, does 50 work for it?
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post #5107 of 9401 Old 02-13-2019, 04:33 PM
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Apologies if this is OT, but I recently downgraded my OS from Windows 10 to Windows 7. I am discovering that I am no longer able to select D3D11 in my LAV Video Configuration for the purposes of measuring MKV files using MadMeasureHDR

Is there a way around this or did I jump the gun in downgrading to Windows 7? What should I be doing in order to use MadMeasureHDR with Windows 7?

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post #5108 of 9401 Old 02-13-2019, 05:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sonichart View Post
Apologies if this is OT, but I recently downgraded my OS from Windows 10 to Windows 7. I am discovering that I am no longer able to select D3D11 in my LAV Video Configuration for the purposes of measuring MKV files using MadMeasureHDR

Is there a way around this or did I jump the gun in downgrading to Windows 7? What should I be doing in order to use MadMeasureHDR with Windows 7?
Do you ave the ability to host both a win 10 and win 7 volume? I do this on my MacPro. I have separate SSDs for osx 10.10.6, a latest version osx and a win 10.
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post #5109 of 9401 Old 02-13-2019, 07:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dexter Kane View Post
@Neo-XP I don't have this movie, does 50 work for it?
No, the next scene is not detected with 50. It works with 41, but not with 42 (because each frame is displayed for 41.71 ms).
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post #5110 of 9401 Old 02-13-2019, 08:13 PM
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Using the last screen shot setting from @Neo-XP with an adjustment for real nits to 90 and max target to 2500 I found issue in Fury Road at 33:00 to 33:07 just as Max walks around the back of the truck and the camera starts to pan/zoom into him there is a flash. A few seconds later as he focuses on the ladies and it goes from blur to focus there is another flash. I could not dial these out with any further adjustments to scene change threshold (I tried up to 100) or brightness speed (I tried various lower ramps and some steady speeds). I thought I could just increase the scene change threshold but it did not help. Maybe someone can diagnose?

Last edited by fingersdlp; 02-13-2019 at 08:21 PM.
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post #5111 of 9401 Old 02-13-2019, 08:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bytehoven View Post
Do you ave the ability to host both a win 10 and win 7 volume? I do this on my MacPro. I have separate SSDs for osx 10.10.6, a latest version osx and a win 10.
Related to this idea I measure with a different PC than I use for playback. If you have another win 10 PC on the network that can access the movie shares you could measure with the win 10 and play with the win 7?
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post #5112 of 9401 Old 02-13-2019, 08:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fingersdlp View Post
Using the last screen shot setting from @Neo-XP with an adjustment for real nits to 90 and max target to 2500 I found issue in Fury Road at 33:00 to 33:07 just as Max walks around the back of the truck and the camera starts to pan/zoom into him there is a flash. A few seconds later as he focuses on the ladies and it goes from blur to focus there is another flash. I could not dial these out with any further adjustments to scene change threshold (I tried up to 100) or brightness speed (I tried various lower ramps and some steady speeds). I thought I could just increase the scene change threshold but it did not help. Maybe someone can diagnose?

You can't fix this with any setting unfortunately, it's the lum changes going up to more than 20% several times in this scene which is triggering the small scene change algo and the tone mapping target adapts immediately to the frame peak nits.

Maybe madshi can find a way to fix this, because when you look at the lum graph (its appearance), it is not changing much.

Last edited by Neo-XP; 02-13-2019 at 08:43 PM.
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post #5113 of 9401 Old 02-13-2019, 09:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sonichart View Post
Apologies if this is OT, but I recently downgraded my OS from Windows 10 to Windows 7. I am discovering that I am no longer able to select D3D11 in my LAV Video Configuration for the purposes of measuring MKV files using MadMeasureHDR

Is there a way around this or did I jump the gun in downgrading to Windows 7? What should I be doing in order to use MadMeasureHDR with Windows 7?
Win 8.1 is actually what madshi recommends for madVR. It does support D3D11. Did you have other reasons to go to Win 7?
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post #5114 of 9401 Old 02-14-2019, 12:59 AM
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Do you have to install dev builds to get the extra HDR settings? I see nothing in 92.17 but the basic settings tab for hdr.

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post #5115 of 9401 Old 02-14-2019, 01:39 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nightfly85 View Post
Do you have to install dev builds to get the extra HDR settings? I see nothing in 92.17 but the basic settings tab for hdr.
That's correct: just unzip the test build on top of 92.17 release.

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post #5116 of 9401 Old 02-14-2019, 02:40 AM
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Wow holy crap I just tried v45. I stopped testing when measurement files were required and just upgraded to test now when they aren't. What an improvement! Basically used NeoXP's settings above except my nits value to match my display. This is the first time blade runner 2049 (sony version) actually popped!

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post #5117 of 9401 Old 02-14-2019, 03:26 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by markmon1 View Post
Wow holy crap I just tried v45. I stopped testing when measurement files were required and just upgraded to test now when they aren't. What an improvement! Basically used NeoXP's settings above except my nits value to match my display. This is the first time blade runner 2049 (sony version) actually popped!
did you tests with the projector?
Thanks

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post #5118 of 9401 Old 02-14-2019, 03:27 AM
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How can I measure the actual nits on my jvc x5000 with a spyder 5 pro? i have searched this tread but didn't found any answers.
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post #5119 of 9401 Old 02-14-2019, 04:35 AM
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@madshi Did you change the way lum changes are calculated recently?

I compared the last build with build "madVRhdrMeasure33" and the lum changes values are completely different:

madVRhdrMeasure33 / madVRhdrMeasure45



madVRhdrMeasure45 seems to calculate high lum changes for no reason.

Edit: Same here:

madVRhdrMeasure33 / madVRhdrMeasure45



What happened?

Last edited by Neo-XP; 02-14-2019 at 04:45 AM.
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post #5120 of 9401 Old 02-14-2019, 04:43 AM
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I excluded black bars. Other than that it shouldn't have changed, I think.
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post #5121 of 9401 Old 02-14-2019, 04:46 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by madshi View Post
I excluded black bars. Other than that it shouldn't have changed, I think.
Maybe the lum graph resolution? Was it changed between madVRhdrMeasure33 and madVRhdrMeasure45?
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post #5122 of 9401 Old 02-14-2019, 04:47 AM
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I don't remember in which build I changed that. But don't the black bars already explain the difference?
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post #5123 of 9401 Old 02-14-2019, 05:39 AM
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I've revised my settings somewhat in light of the BvS gunfire muzzle scene.

Previously, I had min scene duration set to 0, but I think 700 works well for that scene. I can't see any visible dimming during the scene or the switch to the next scene.

I don’t think that 0 is too bad for min scene duration. Yes, there is intermittent dimming/brightening when the muzzle flash occurs: it goes bright - dim - bright -dim. However, your eyes are somewhat distracted by the muzzle flash, which is occurring so quickly so you might not fully pick up on it. When set to 1, the scene stays dim in-between the muzzle flash, which is more noticeable than 0 imo as it goes bright -dim and stays dim.


With 700 it works well.

My other settings for the brightness speeds from left to right are

0 - 2 -25 - 150 - 225 - 250 - 450



Scene change threshold is set to 30

As for my thinking for reducing the 20% diff to 2 (as opposed to 5)


If I look at Ex Machina and record the dynamic target at intervals during that scene:


My settings (above) with 20% diff = 2 / With 20% diff = 5 / Neo's setting

192 195 192
191 190 187
190 188 183
183 176 175
182 179 182
184 187 199
187 203 210

My setting with 20% difference= 2 is giving me more stability i.e. the range is 182-192.

With 20% diff = 5, the range is increased from 176-203.

With Neo's setting
the range is increased from 175-210.

Of course, this is just one scene.

I also looked at the Mad Max flare scene (frame 25963), which can be too volatile if I set the 50% difference too high (which I'd set higher for a different scene). With my current settings the scene ranges from approximately 310-344. If I set it too high, it can go up to nearly 400 and you'll notice a dimming in the sky as the flare goes off and then it brightens again. Neo's settings were fine with for this. The range was only around 10 nits higher.

My settings are also quick enough to react to Wonder Woman and the quick brightening/darkening after Doomsday fires that blast at her.


Still work in progress atm. I've already revised these a few times when testing different scenes.


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post #5124 of 9401 Old 02-14-2019, 06:07 AM
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@madshi ... This is just STUPID.....
.
.
.
.
.
.
AMAZING that you are doing all this for us! I cant thank you enough and I'm sure many others feel the same.

Please link a donate/paypal on madVR.com so we can give back to you and for your continual work you put into this.

Plus its just not right you dont have that sweet sweet gold badge under your name, when you have done so much to help the community.


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post #5125 of 9401 Old 02-14-2019, 07:03 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by madshi View Post
I don't remember in which build I changed that. But don't the black bars already explain the difference?
It does not make sense, because excluding the black bars just increase the lum changes a bit for every scene detection, not randomly in a middle of a scene with a big increase. I will check with builds with black bars included to be sure.

The lum graph resolution on the other hand can cause issues if small changes can produce a higher delta value on your formula. A lower graph resolution maybe smooth small changes?

Last edited by Neo-XP; 02-14-2019 at 07:10 AM.
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post #5126 of 9401 Old 02-14-2019, 07:20 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Neo-XP View Post
It does not make sense
Maybe this (and madshi's reply below it)?
https://www.avsforum.com/forum/24-di...l#post57431952

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post #5127 of 9401 Old 02-14-2019, 09:19 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Neo-XP View Post
@madshi Did you change the way lum changes are calculated recently?

I compared the last build with build "madVRhdrMeasure33" and the lum changes values are completely different:

madVRhdrMeasure33 / madVRhdrMeasure45



madVRhdrMeasure45 seems to calculate high lum changes for no reason.

Edit: Same here:

madVRhdrMeasure33 / madVRhdrMeasure45



What happened?
Do you have timecodes for these 2 frames?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Neo-XP View Post
Maybe the lum graph resolution? Was it changed between madVRhdrMeasure33 and madVRhdrMeasure45?
Possibly. Will have to check.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fer15 View Post
I've revised my settings somewhat in light of the BvS gunfire muzzle scene.

Previously, I had min scene duration set to 0, but I think 700 works well for that scene. I can't see any visible dimming during the scene or the switch to the next scene.

I don’t think that 0 is too bad for min scene duration. Yes, there is intermittent dimming/brightening when the muzzle flash occurs: it goes bright - dim - bright -dim. However, your eyes are somewhat distracted by the muzzle flash, which is occurring so quickly so you might not fully pick up on it. When set to 1, the scene stays dim in-between the muzzle flash, which is more noticeable than 0 imo as it goes bright -dim and stays dim.


With 700 it works well.

My other settings for the brightness speeds from left to right are

0 - 2 -25 - 150 - 225 - 250 - 450



Scene change threshold is set to 30

As for my thinking for reducing the 20% diff to 2 (as opposed to 5)


If I look at Ex Machina and record the dynamic target at intervals during that scene:


My settings (above) with 20% diff = 2 / With 20% diff = 5 / Neo's setting

192 195 192
191 190 187
190 188 183
183 176 175
182 179 182
184 187 199
187 203 210

My setting with 20% difference= 2 is giving me more stability i.e. the range is 182-192.

With 20% diff = 5, the range is increased from 176-203.

With Neo's setting
the range is increased from 175-210.

Of course, this is just one scene.

I also looked at the Mad Max flare scene (frame 25963), which can be too volatile if I set the 50% difference too high (which I'd set higher for a different scene). With my current settings the scene ranges from approximately 310-344. If I set it too high, it can go up to nearly 400 and you'll notice a dimming in the sky as the flare goes off and then it brightens again. Neo's settings were fine with for this. The range was only around 10 nits higher.

My settings are also quick enough to react to Wonder Woman and the quick brightening/darkening after Doomsday fires that blast at her.


Still work in progress atm. I've already revised these a few times when testing different scenes.
Thanks for your feedback. Neo-XP, do you like these settings? Or do you think your's a "better"? Do you have specific scenes where you like your's better? Thanks!

@Dexter , do you have favorite settings for the various "brightness speeds"?

Quote:
Originally Posted by SOWK View Post
@madshi ... This is just STUPID.....

AMAZING that you are doing all this for us! I cant thank you enough and I'm sure many others feel the same.

Please link a donate/paypal on madVR.com so we can give back to you and for your continual work you put into this.
Thanks. Don't worry about it too much. At some point I plan to create a madVR "pro" edition, which will have some extra features and will cost money. Until then I'd rather not accept donations, because otherwise it will become difficult to handle donations vs "pro" payments later.
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post #5128 of 9401 Old 02-14-2019, 09:47 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by madshi View Post
Thanks for your feedback. Neo-XP, do you like these settings? Or do you think your's a "better"? Do you have specific scenes where you like your's better? Thanks!
I'll have to check

Quote:
Originally Posted by madshi View Post
Do you have timecodes for these 2 frames?
The first one is frame 47510 from Fury Road and the second one is frame 95238 from BvS.

Thanks!

Edit: One more:

madVRhdrMeasure33 / madVRhdrMeasure45



That's frame 15766 from Fury Road.

Last edited by Neo-XP; 02-14-2019 at 09:58 AM.
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post #5129 of 9401 Old 02-14-2019, 11:06 AM
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When using "LAV Splitter" (not Source), some MKV files use the measurement data, and some MKV files don't, no matter whether using central measurement file folder or not.

Is it possible to fix it, or at least load the measurement data manually?

Thanks
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post #5130 of 9401 Old 02-14-2019, 12:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fer15 View Post
I've revised my settings somewhat in light of the BvS gunfire muzzle scene.

Previously, I had min scene duration set to 0, but I think 700 works well for that scene. I can't see any visible dimming during the scene or the switch to the next scene.

I don’t think that 0 is too bad for min scene duration. Yes, there is intermittent dimming/brightening when the muzzle flash occurs: it goes bright - dim - bright -dim. However, your eyes are somewhat distracted by the muzzle flash, which is occurring so quickly so you might not fully pick up on it. When set to 1, the scene stays dim in-between the muzzle flash, which is more noticeable than 0 imo as it goes bright -dim and stays dim.

With 700 it works well.
I don't understand what you prefer here in the end, because 1 and 700 are producing the same result (but with 700 the next scene stays dim, which is worse) and you say that with 1 it is more noticeable than 0. So you prefer 0 ?

The same happen with this scene:

With 0




With 1




With 700



So... which one?
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dynamic tone mapping , hdr , madvr , sdr , ton mapping

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