Improving Madvr HDR to SDR mapping for projector - Page 222 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #6631 of 7008 Old 10-10-2019, 12:00 AM - Thread Starter
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Tone mapping goal is an art.
Goal is to be as close to the source as possible:
- brightness
- color hue
- color saturation
- highlights details
- shadow details
- pop contrast

Since we can't have it all on our display with limited brightness, we have to compromise.

Now the goal is to please the MOST amount of people with the default settings of those compromise.

But they are things were people taste (it's art remember) are too strongly appart.
That's were setting come from:
- highlights recovery details
- highlights shadow details
- nice fire


For saturation vs highlights details, the choice have a huge impact on the picture.
It is never the question to have more saturation than the source. The question os how much do you want to preserve. The more you preserve, the less highlights details you get.

From what I read in the different forums around the world, most of people get a WOW effect with preserved saturation more than they do with preserved highlights details.
And I believe that despite Neo-xp and madshi who always favors highlight details, most people prefer saturation instead.

So let's keep that in mind when choosing the default desaturation settings.

Also since there are clearly strong different taste about that, it makes a lot of sense to propose a settings with maybe 3 strength: balanced, saturation lovers, highlights details lover.

It makes little sense to have a setting for a little effect like "fire hue" but not for a huge effect like " saturation vs highlights details ".

Last edited by Soulnight; 10-10-2019 at 12:06 AM.
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post #6632 of 7008 Old 10-10-2019, 12:27 AM
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Experiment with the clipping point:

HSTM Off


Spears & Munsil UHD HDR Benchmark - Frame 5567

HSTM On (initial power - clipping point - final power) - 20-10-20 / 20-20-20 / 20-30-20 / 20-40-20 / 20-50-20 / 20-60-20 / 20-70-20 / 20-80-20



20-40-20 is the sweet spot here.

Therefore, the following parameters are the best for me:

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Last edited by Neo-XP; 10-10-2019 at 12:31 AM.
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post #6633 of 7008 Old 10-10-2019, 12:50 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Neo-XP View Post
The colors look much much more natural actually IMO:

HSTM Off / HSTM On


La La Land - Frame 40803

I mean... look at the skin color of everyone here
I agree that I like the saturation with HSTM On better, but I'm reserving final judgement for that later test build where we look at saturation once more.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Soulnight View Post
Ok. Could you please provide in the next build the 96 methods keeping the same peak BUT with the change to the way the algo would adjust itself? So we can see which one really fixed the issues. :-)

Also maybe you could use 96 way of doing with some limits to how bright or dark it can get: 10, 20, 30, 40... 100% change allowed from original Fall. (Probably better never to allow that the Fall drops actually).
Or respect half of the peak condition and half of the Fall but neither entirely.
Let's take it one step at a time, I don't think adding a hundred new options right now seems like the best approach. So let's first just check peak vs fall, and adjust A vs B.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SamuriHL View Post
What in the hell kind of wizardry is this???! I miss a few builds and skip to 97a and run a couple tests on my favorite dark scenes and OMG! What have you done? That's a HUGE improvement. I'm not looking at individual frames....I'm looking at it overall in moving video. That's insane. Like REALLY impressive! To give you an idea of what I mean, take a look at the tesseract at the beginning of Infinity War. Doing it as a paused frame is all well and good but watch it MOVING....the detail inside that thing. WOW! I'm really blown away here.


Quote:
Originally Posted by SamuriHL View Post
Oh dear. Ummm, hey madshi...I don't think the menu on the Spears and Munsil disc is supposed to look like that. For some reason I wasn't able to take a screen cap of it. Suffice it to say I don't think it looks quite right.

I'm getting that same affect on the red background of Last Jedi in Snoke's room. I don't know what's causing it.
I'll have a look.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Neo-XP View Post
No smoothing at all is even better to preserve highlight details

I'll try to play with initial/final power and clipping point, but they seem extremely good already.
Oh wow, I didn't expect that. I thought smoothing would be benefitial. But we shouldn't rule smoothing out just yet. I could imagine that not using smoothing could produce artifacts in some situations. So it might still make sense to double check once in a while if smoothing 0 is *always* better than smoothing 20 or not.

It's also quite possible that setting smoothing to 0 simply increases the strength of the overall algorithm. What happens if you use a bit of smoothing but then choose a strength of e.g. 200 or 400? Does that give you a similar effect? Or is smoothing 0 still better?

Quote:
Originally Posted by ddgdl View Post
Fantastic improvement. Any chance of fixing the measurement file bug or is that a longer fix that will take away from this development cycle?
It's on my list of things to look at. But fixing all the reported image quality issues comes first.

Quote:
Originally Posted by CoryW View Post
I am currently at 15 clipping point. I find that at the default value of 40, the perceived reduction in saturation creates a more flat image and less pop.
Do you have a good screenshot for this which shows the difference? As I mentioned before, saturation is a topic we will revisit later. I wouldn't want you to make decisions on HSTM settings based on saturation.

Maybe I should completely disable any desaturation for now? It will look bad, IMHO, but it should make it easier for you guys to judge which HSTM settings are better and which are worse, because saturation no longer plays a role? Or maybe, it could actually go into the other direction that you pick completely different HSTM settings because you think the saturation is otherwise too high. It's difficult... <sigh>

Quote:
Originally Posted by SirMaster View Post
I'm mostly liking what the HSTM is doing as far as perceived contrast enhancement, but also I am seeing what other people are calling the desaturation, particularly noticeable in skintones.

I know madshi talked about this, but I still can't help but feel I wish the skintones looked as full as they did with HSTM off.
As mentioned multiple times, we will revisit saturation later. For now please try to ignore it (if you can).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Neo-XP View Post
That is because of the initial and final power you used.

The Meg - Frame 8810

[...]

HSTM On (initial power - clipping point - final power) - 10-40-10 / 20-40-10 / 30-40-10 / 40-40-40 / 50-40-50 / 60-40-60 / 70-40-70


10-40-10 is too much here IMO.
It's interesting, in The Meg I prefer 20-40-20 much over e.g. 60-40-60, but with Black Hawk Down, I prefer 60-40-60. But of course we should pick settings which look good in the majority of situations.

Edit: I just double checked and I get completely different results for The Meg here. With 70-40-70 the face is brighter for me compared to 20-40-20, while in your images it's the other way round. Can you double check?

Edit2: Try comparing strength 100 with 30-40-80 with a strength of 200 using 20-40-20 with The Meg. Looks almost the same to me. What do you think?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan Gouger View Post
Something has changed regarding color between build 87 with the 90 series. Color has noticably de saturated and the hue has changed. I had to click hue 4 points toward red to get close to build 87s default.
Hue should not have changed. Not sure why that would happen. We'll revisit saturation in the near future.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Soulnight View Post
From what I read in the different forums around the world, most of people get a WOW effect with preserved saturation more than they do with preserved highlights details.
And I believe that despite Neo-xp and madshi who always favors highlight details, most people prefer saturation instead.

So let's keep that in mind when choosing the default desaturation settings.

Also since there are clearly strong different taste about that, it makes a lot of sense to propose a settings with maybe 3 strength: balanced, saturation lovers, highlights details lover.
As I said before, we'll revisit saturation later.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Neo-XP View Post
Experiment with the clipping point:

HSTM On (initial power - clipping point - final power) - 20-10-20 / 20-20-20 / 20-30-20 / 20-40-20 / 20-50-20 / 20-60-20 / 20-70-20 / 20-80-20

20-40-20 is the sweet spot here.
Finding the best settings might be difficult because it seems to differ a lot depending on which image you're looking at. Also, several of these settings also have an indirect influence on the overall strength of the algorithm. E.g. smoothing decreases the strength to some extent. I suppose changing the clipping point or power values will probably also affect the overall strength somewhat. So is it better to pick clipping point / power values which have a lower algorithm strength overall, and then to increase the strength to 200? Or maybe we should decrease strength to 50 and pick clipping point / power values which raise the strength of the algo?

JFYI, the two power values aren't directly related, so it's perfectly valid (in theory) to pick different values for both.

All that said, 20-40-20 is what I settled on after a very quick and rough test with various test scenes/videos. But I'm far from sure that these are the best settings for the widest range of content.
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post #6634 of 7008 Old 10-10-2019, 01:12 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by madshi View Post
I wouldn't want you to make decisions on HSTM settings based on saturation.

Maybe I should completely disable any desaturation for now? It will look bad, IMHO, but it should make it easier for you guys to judge which HSTM settings are better and which are worse, because saturation no longer plays a role? Or maybe, it could actually go into the other direction that you pick completely different HSTM settings because you think the saturation is otherwise too high. It's difficult... <sigh>
Yes that might be a good idea. Right now I can't really like v97 compared to v96, or htsm off because of loosing desaturation.

Also, I think I you remove desaturation, it will slightly lessen the overall contrast gain of HSTM because we will get less lightness nuances. So if we still like it with no desaturation, it will be better even later.

What's important is apple to apple saturation comparaison.
So either you disable desaturation completely both with HSTM on and off.
Or maybe, you could disable any desaturation BELOW the bt2390 knee we would get with HSTM off. Right now, if I understand correctly you do not desaturate anything below the Bt2390 knee with HSTM off, but you do with HSTM ON for anything you compress below the "old" knee. So at least making that apple to apple would help. Maybe it's even "more correct" anyway.

Last edited by Soulnight; 10-10-2019 at 01:26 AM.
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post #6635 of 7008 Old 10-10-2019, 01:40 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by madshi View Post
It's interesting, in The Meg I prefer 20-40-20 much over e.g. 60-40-60, but with Black Hawk Down, I prefer 60-40-60. But of course we should pick settings which look good in the majority of situations.

Edit: I just double checked and I get completely different results for The Meg here. With 70-40-70 the face is brighter for me compared to 20-40-20, while in your images it's the other way round. Can you double check?
That is probably due to the difference of the DT value and real nits.

With [email protected]:

HSTM On (initial power - clipping point - final power) - 20-40-20 / 70-40-70




With [email protected]:

HSTM On (initial power - clipping point - final power) - 20-40-20 / 70-40-70



20-40-20 is my favorite for both, but with [email protected] you can see the difference in depth much better.

Quote:
Originally Posted by madshi View Post
Edit2: Try comparing strength 100 with 30-40-80 with a strength of 200 using 20-40-20 with The Meg. Looks almost the same to me. What do you think?

With [email protected]:

HSTM On (strength - initial power - clipping point - final power) - 100-30-40-80 / 200-20-40-20




With [email protected]:

HSTM On (strength - initial power - clipping point - final power) - 100-30-40-80 / 200-20-40-20



200-20-40-20 is better than 100-20-40-20 here, I guess? I don't know for sure...

I didn't play with the strength of the HSTM algo yet (or with different values for initial and final power, because the result seemed more balanced with both powers at the same value).

I will test different strength values with this scene and others too see if there is a sweet spot for it too.
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post #6636 of 7008 Old 10-10-2019, 02:47 AM
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Still doing testing...

but found one issue with the new HSTM algo....Atomic Blonde (especially the second Atomic Blonde image with the close-up)

I'm testing the following atm


htsm off and sky off
vs
htsm off and sky on
vs
htsm on (at default) and sky off
vs
htsm on (at default) and sky on (at default)


First image:


Lost detail in the hair with:

htsm on (at default) and sky off to some extent;

and certainly so with htsm on (at default) and sky on (at default) when compared to the option being off







and even more so in this image, where there's lost detail in the hair with both:

htsm on (at default) and sky off;
and htsm on (at default) and sky on (at default).









Also, just one other


I looked at this Harry Potter scene

htsm on and sky off hist smoothing 0
vs
htsm on and sky off hist smoothing 1
vs
htsm on and sky off hist smoothing 20
vs
htsm on and sky on hist smoothing 0
vs
htsm on and sky on hist smoothing 1
vs
htsm on and sky on hist smoothing 20


Depending on the combination (with largely default settings), there can be some issues with the beam, which repair lum channel was intended to fix, there's less luminance in the centre compared to the edges (most noticeable on right side of image). This might be fine tuned with other settings but I haven't done that yet

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Last edited by Fer15; 10-10-2019 at 02:51 AM.
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post #6637 of 7008 Old 10-10-2019, 03:06 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fer15 View Post
Still doing testing...

but found one issue with the new HSTM algo....Atomic Blonde (especially the second Atomic Blonde image with the close-up)
Hi Fer15,

I tested myself, and I also have this issue, even with a strength of 1

Hopefully, it is just a bad color gamut conversion or something easily fixable.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fer15 View Post
Depending on the combination (with largely default settings), there can be some issues with the beam, which repair lum channel was intended to fix, there's less luminance in the centre compared to the edges (most noticeable on right side of image). This might be fine tuned with other settings but I haven't done that yet
That looks bad, but isn't it just a problem of balance between saturation and luminance that will need to be re-adapted for the HSTM algo (saturation boost 1 or 2, measured desaturation, or something like that)?

Should we take this into account for now?

Last edited by Neo-XP; 10-10-2019 at 03:10 AM.
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post #6638 of 7008 Old 10-10-2019, 03:13 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Neo-XP View Post
Hi Fer15,

I tested myself, and I also have this issue, even with a strength of 1

Hopefully, it is just a bad color gamut conversion or something easily fixable.



That looks bad, but isn't it just a problem of balance between saturation and luminance that will need to be re-adapted for the HSTM algo (saturation boost 1 or 2, measured desaturation, or something like that)?

Should we take this into account for now?

I think only Madshi can answer both of those questions


Hopefully both issues can be easily fixed.
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post #6639 of 7008 Old 10-10-2019, 04:28 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by madshi View Post
As I mentioned before, saturation is a topic we will revisit later. I wouldn't want you to make decisions on HSTM settings based on saturation.

Maybe I should completely disable any desaturation for now? It will look bad, IMHO, but it should make it easier for you guys to judge which HSTM settings are better and which are worse, because saturation no longer plays a role? Or maybe, it could actually go into the other direction that you pick completely different HSTM settings because you think the saturation is otherwise too high. It's difficult... <sigh>.

It is more difficult than I anticipated. Thank you for the response and sorry for the saturation derailment.

Thanks!
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post #6640 of 7008 Old 10-10-2019, 05:01 AM
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Found another issue with Goblet of Fire -



banding in green in some shots....


htsm off and sky off
vs
htsm off and sky on
vs
htsm on and sky off (hist smoothing 0)
vs
htsm on and sky off (hist smoothing 1)
vs
htsm on and sky off (hist smoothing 20)
vs
htsm on and sky on (hist smoothing 0)
vs
htsm on and sky on (hist smoothing 1)
vs
htsm on and sky on (hist smoothing 20)


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post #6641 of 7008 Old 10-10-2019, 12:54 PM
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@Neo-XP would you mind sharing your latest settings?
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post #6642 of 7008 Old 10-10-2019, 02:11 PM
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@Fer15 The issue disappears for Atomic Blonde and HP if you tick "compromise on HDR tone & gamut mapping accuracy" on the "trade quality..." page.

HSTM OFF / HSTM ON / HSTM ON + compromise



Therefore, it is probably just a saturation boost to remove (or I want to persuade myself that is it, so madshi can fix this easily ).

I noticed that the HSTM also completely destroys the balance between luminance and saturation that we tweaked before (highlights get way too much saturation), so I guess we will have to do it all over again at some point

@madshi

I didn't get better results overall or just for the highlights by playing with different strengths and smoothing.

I also lose depth by increasing the strength (same effect as increasing the final power with a lower strength).

It is too bright for me at 10 and too dark at 30 (with less depth), so I'm back at 20

Therefore, this seems to be my final answer for this test:





Also, the flat bright algo doesn't seem to work properly (or the limits are not respected), because I get a lower target with it enabled on this scene with "min sky hill height" and "max sky hill height" at 10'000 (to make sure that nothing is detected, to test):

Sky detection OFF / Sky detection ON


Spears & Munsil UHD HDR Benchmark - Frame 9209

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ian_Currie View Post
@Neo-XP would you mind sharing your latest settings?
Well... it is difficult to answer at the moment in the middle of a test that will probably change a lot of things. Is it to see a movie or just for testing?
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Last edited by Neo-XP; 10-10-2019 at 02:21 PM.
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post #6643 of 7008 Old 10-10-2019, 03:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Neo-XP View Post
@Fer15 The issue disappears for Atomic Blonde and HP if you tick "compromise on HDR tone & gamut mapping accuracy" on the "trade quality..." page.


Therefore, it is probably just a saturation boost to remove (or I want to persuade myself that is it, so madshi can fix this easily ).
Fingers crossed!


Quote:
Originally Posted by Neo-XP View Post
I noticed that the HSTM also completely destroys the balance between luminance and saturation that we tweaked before (highlights get way too much saturation), so I guess we will have to do it all over again at some point



I guess we've come this far...what's a little extra testing!
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post #6644 of 7008 Old 10-10-2019, 03:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Neo-XP View Post

Well... it is difficult to answer at the moment in the middle of a test that will probably change a lot of things. Is it to see a movie or just for testing?
No worries, it was for a movie, but I see that it's bad timing.

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post #6645 of 7008 Old 10-10-2019, 07:44 PM
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Or you can go back to v95 before the current testing began.

Last edited by DrDon; 10-10-2019 at 08:20 PM.
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post #6646 of 7008 Old 10-11-2019, 01:38 AM - Thread Starter
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HTSM on vs off: Build 96 vs 97

So here a few picture comparing HSTM default settings ON (100% strength) vs OFF (0% Strength).

I am also comparing Build 96 to 97, and I prefer clearly on those shots the look of 96.

For me, on those picture Build 96 is cleary superior since it has at the same time more contrast AND more brightness.


Also, I am using here REC709 as target color space so that you can see it properly on your screen.
However it made realize why Madshi and Neo-XP generally do not understand the saturation loss because I believe they use REC709 as target color space
--> the saturation loss is much more apparent when I am tone mapping to DCI-P3 on a display which can effectively display 100% DCI than when I am tone mapping to rec709 where the nice colors are already gone to begin with.
--> therefore I understand than for people with basic REC709 colorspace, you may tend to like better highlights details since even a 100% REC709 or gold is not spectacular.
--> But for people like me who can really display a nice 100% DCI RED, GOLD or GREEN, you really loose some nice color pop when desaturating to gain gain some small details.

My settings:

Gamma 2.2
REC709
Real Nits=50
Dynamic Tuning =75
Do not desaturate
Sky Strength 100

Pictures are from the excellent 4k Bluray: COCO

Minute: 00:17:06

BUILD 96: HSTM OFF


BUILD 96: HSTM ON


BUILD 97: HSTM OFF


BUILD 97: HSTM ON



Minute 01:01:42

BUILD 96: HSTM OFF


BUILD 96: HSTM ON


BUILD 97: HSTM OFF


BUILD 97: HSTM ON
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post #6647 of 7008 Old 10-11-2019, 01:57 AM - Thread Starter
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Actually, this excellent website make the comparison HSTM ON/OFF/96/97 so much easier:

You can click on the picture you want to view, or use your keyboard to jump to the wanted picture. And for Madshi, it works on smartphone too!

Comparison 1:
http://www.framecompare.com/image-co...rison/J0F0MNNU

Comparison 2:
http://www.framecompare.com/image-co...rison/DWKWPNNX
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post #6648 of 7008 Old 10-11-2019, 02:17 AM
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Hello everybody,
I read only here, because I can not contribute anything else, but since the best possible picture on my JVC projector is very important to me, I would like to mention that I support the opinion of Soulnight.

In this way, I would like to thank my heartfelt thanks to Madshi and the helpers.
Great what is possible so far with madVR and I enjoy it very much
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post #6649 of 7008 Old 10-11-2019, 02:37 AM
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I agree with Soulnight.

BUILD 96: HSTM ON is definitely better.
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post #6650 of 7008 Old 10-11-2019, 02:38 AM
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The target is allowed to go lower than the real nits with HSTM On:

150 real nits - HSTM Off / HSTM On (default settings) / HSTM On (default settings) + desaturation Off


La La Land - Frame 37581

The flickering with HSTM On seems to happen mainly when the target is close to the real nits.

@Soulnight Why is there a difference between build 96 and 97 with HSTM Off in your comparisons?
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Last edited by Neo-XP; 10-11-2019 at 10:46 AM.
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post #6651 of 7008 Old 10-11-2019, 02:41 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Neo-XP View Post
@Soulnight Why is there a difference between build 96 and 97 with HSTM Off in your comparisons?
I have been asking myself the same question and that's why I included the OFF for both.

Could you maybe test yourself a few examples like I did with Build 96 vs 97 with default settings, with strength 0 vs 100%: ? Thanks!
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post #6652 of 7008 Old 10-11-2019, 02:54 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Soulnight View Post
I have been asking myself the same question and that's why I included the OFF for both.

Could you maybe test yourself a few examples like I did with Build 96 vs 97 with default settings, with strength 0 vs 100%: ? Thanks!
Build 96:

HSTM Off / HSTM On (default settings)



Build 97:

HSTM Off / HSTM On (default settings)



No difference with HSTM Off between build 96 and build 97, but bad clipping with build 96 with HSTM On (on Emma's face and on the white shirt of the guy in the back)

If you lower the clipping point on build 97, you can get approximately the same result as build 96 with HSTM On, with less bad clipping (but still pretty bad IMO):

HSTM On (clipping point: 10)

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Last edited by Neo-XP; 10-11-2019 at 02:59 AM.
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post #6653 of 7008 Old 10-11-2019, 03:31 AM
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Iˋdonˋt know if anybody noticed, but if you use measurements with the new builds the screen gets blue....
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post #6654 of 7008 Old 10-11-2019, 04:27 AM
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Hello, I'm just a silent tester and reader. But I am fascinated by the work of Madshi.

As well as the great work of Soulnight and Anna. I could follow the improvements of the V96 yesterday.

Hence the big request to Madshi. Trust the work of Soulnight a little more. He often had the right approach. He did not always recognize right away. And now several of his ideas have gone into the Live Algo.

So please follow the basic idea of V96 and bring it to the series.

Best regards

Speedy
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post #6655 of 7008 Old 10-11-2019, 04:45 AM
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Wasn't Madshi very clear that the issue of color saturation would be revisited later (after this current focus of testing)? Give it a chance.
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post #6656 of 7008 Old 10-11-2019, 05:20 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fer15 View Post
Still doing testing...

but found one issue with the new HSTM algo....Atomic Blonde (especially the second Atomic Blonde image with the close-up)

I'm testing the following atm


htsm off and sky off
vs
htsm off and sky on
vs
htsm on (at default) and sky off
vs
htsm on (at default) and sky on (at default)


First image:


Lost detail in the hair with:

htsm on (at default) and sky off to some extent;

and certainly so with htsm on (at default) and sky on (at default) when compared to the option being off







and even more so in this image, where there's lost detail in the hair with both:

htsm on (at default) and sky off;
and htsm on (at default) and sky on (at default).









Also, just one other


I looked at this Harry Potter scene

htsm on and sky off hist smoothing 0
vs
htsm on and sky off hist smoothing 1
vs
htsm on and sky off hist smoothing 20
vs
htsm on and sky on hist smoothing 0
vs
htsm on and sky on hist smoothing 1
vs
htsm on and sky on hist smoothing 20


Depending on the combination (with largely default settings), there can be some issues with the beam, which repair lum channel was intended to fix, there's less luminance in the centre compared to the edges (most noticeable on right side of image). This might be fine tuned with other settings but I haven't done that yet


I noticed this problem, already with build 94 with the X-MEN APOCALYPSE movie, around the 51:42 - 52:00 minute and I can confirm that by activating COMPROMISE ON HDR TONE & GAMUT MAPPING ACCURACY, the problem disappears ..... thanks Neo-Xp
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post #6657 of 7008 Old 10-11-2019, 10:23 AM
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After a few hours of testing, here are my updated settings:


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post #6658 of 7008 Old 10-11-2019, 11:44 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Neo-XP View Post
After a few hours of testing, here are my updated settings:




Can you please post your full settings??
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post #6659 of 7008 Old 10-11-2019, 12:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Soulnight View Post
Yes that might be a good idea. Right now I can't really like v97 compared to v96, or htsm off because of loosing desaturation.

Also, I think I you remove desaturation, it will slightly lessen the overall contrast gain of HSTM because we will get less lightness nuances. So if we still like it with no desaturation, it will be better even later.

What's important is apple to apple saturation comparaison.
So either you disable desaturation completely both with HSTM on and off.
FWIW, I've found a saturation related bug. It could be that saturation will be different/improved in the next build.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Neo-XP View Post
That is probably due to the difference of the DT value and real nits.

With [email protected]:

HSTM On (initial power - clipping point - final power) - 20-40-20 / 70-40-70

With [email protected]:

HSTM On (initial power - clipping point - final power) - 20-40-20 / 70-40-70

20-40-20 is my favorite for both, but with [email protected] you can see the difference in depth much better.
It's so weird that 70-40-70 is either brighter or darker than 20-40-20, depending on Dynamic Tuning !! Not completely sure why that happens, to be honest...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fer15 View Post
found one issue with the new HSTM algo....Atomic Blonde (especially the second Atomic Blonde image with the close-up)
Should be fixed in the next build.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fer15 View Post
Found another issue with Goblet of Fire -

banding in green in some shots....
Should be fixed in the next build.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Neo-XP View Post
I didn't get better results overall or just for the highlights by playing with different strengths and smoothing.

I also lose depth by increasing the strength (same effect as increasing the final power with a lower strength).
Did you also try a lower strength combined with lower power/clip values? E.g. try a strength of 50 with 10-20-10. Looks good to me with the cow image, but didn't test anything else.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Neo-XP View Post
Also, the flat bright algo doesn't seem to work properly (or the limits are not respected), because I get a lower target with it enabled on this scene with "min sky hill height" and "max sky hill height" at 10'000 (to make sure that nothing is detected, to test)
Should be fixed in the next build.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Soulnight View Post
So here a few picture comparing HSTM default settings ON (100% strength) vs OFF (0% Strength).

I am also comparing Build 96 to 97, and I prefer clearly on those shots the look of 96.

For me, on those picture Build 96 is cleary superior since it has at the same time more contrast AND more brightness.
Cool, thanks.

What happens if you try to manually match brightness by modifying dynamic tuning and/or real peak nits values? Does 96 still look better than 97 when brightness matched that way?

Just trying to figure out if it's *just* the different brightness, or more than that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Doyanole View Post
I agree with Soulnight.

BUILD 96: HSTM ON is definitely better.
It's brighter, in any case. Which is something you can control by other means, e.g. changing dynamic tuning. I'm not sure if it's only the brightness which is difference or more.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sven29da View Post
I read only here, because I can not contribute anything else, but since the best possible picture on my JVC projector is very important to me, I would like to mention that I support the opinion of Soulnight.
Quote:
Originally Posted by speedy7461 View Post
Hello, I'm just a silent tester and reader. But I am fascinated by the work of Madshi.

As well as the great work of Soulnight and Anna. I could follow the improvements of the V96 yesterday.

Hence the big request to Madshi. Trust the work of Soulnight a little more. He often had the right approach. He did not always recognize right away. And now several of his ideas have gone into the Live Algo.

So please follow the basic idea of V96 and bring it to the series.
Soulnight's private army...

Don't worry, Soulnight's opinion is highly rated here. However, there are other users here with very good eyes, as well. So decisions are made based on collected feedback by all users. Some of these things are a matter of taste, and as such, we try to find a good compromise everybody can live with. Or if that seems impossible, I usually add an option, although I like to try to avoid doing that, to achieve a good usability in the future.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Neo-XP View Post
The target is allowed to go lower than the real nits with HSTM On:

150 real nits - HSTM Off / HSTM On (default settings) / HSTM On (default settings) + desaturation Off

La La Land - Frame 37581
Hmmmm... I believe that happens because madVR tries to achieve the same FALL value (after tone mapping) and due to the changes applied by HSTM this can sometimes result in the target nits either going up or down. But maybe there's something I can improve in this specific situation. I'll check out this scene tomorrow (probably). If you find more such scenes, please let me know.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Neo-XP View Post
The flickering with HSTM On seems to happen mainly when the target is close to the real nits.
Good catch!!

Quote:
Originally Posted by RioBar4U View Post
Iˋdonˋt know if anybody noticed, but if you use measurements with the new builds the screen gets blue....
Yes, known problem, will be fixed in a future build. All the latest builds are experimental.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Neo-XP View Post
After a few hours of testing, here are my updated settings
Did you find good test images to decide on the smoothing values? E.g. why 1 for histogram smoothing now? Earlier you prefered 1. And why 0 for tone map smoothing? It's fine with me, just wondering if you made these changes based on some specific movie scenes?
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post #6660 of 7008 Old 10-11-2019, 12:49 PM
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New test build:

http://madshi.net/madVRhdrMeasure98.zip

This is a bugfix only test build, no other changes.

I'm not sure if the HDR passthrough image artifacts with the UHD HDR Benchmark menu are fixed or not, I couldn't reproduce the issue here, for some reason. But hopefully one of the other bugfixes fixed this problem, as well?
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