Improving Madvr HDR to SDR mapping for projector - Page 234 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #6991 of 8146 Old 10-21-2019, 02:52 PM
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Originally Posted by lovingdvd View Post
I just noticed the only HSTM artifact I’ve seen yet. Is at the very beginning of guardians of the galaxy volume two. The picture is all black (after the very first intro) and then the opening scene starts with a shot of the sky. You can see within the first second the brightness range across the sky changes and the clouds change in front of your eyes from somewhat crushed to nicely defined. I’m using Neo’s high strength settings with dynamic clipping 70 on and DT of 70. Just curious if anyone can reproduce it?
I don't see any problems with these settings:


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post #6992 of 8146 Old 10-21-2019, 03:11 PM
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Originally Posted by woofer View Post
Another example of this is in "Oblivion" in the opening of the chapter where the ship has crashed into the sand dunes......the scene starts with a full black then opens panning across the sand dune to the crashed ship. The sand initially is completley blown out then it adapts correctley.
Yes, I can reproduce that one too. Like the one from Guardians of the Galaxy Vol. 2, it should also be "easy" to fix with immediate HSTM adaptation on gradual FALL increase/decrease.

I guess bad artifacts can happen the other way around if a scene starts from a full white image.

@madshi I have found an extremely bad artifact on Oblivion with HSTM On.

I uploaded a small sample here: https://www.mediafire.com/file/lp6l2l9c0hb5hcp/HSTM_artifact.mkv/file

New best "balanced" settings for me today (the middle ones):



More tests tomorrow, but I am already 99% happy with these.
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post #6993 of 8146 Old 10-21-2019, 03:15 PM
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Not sure if related but this video from the spears and munsil disc shows a big black blob in the blue area. The only way to get rid of it is to increase 'real display peak nits' or turn off 'dynamic target nits'.


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post #6994 of 8146 Old 10-21-2019, 03:19 PM
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Originally Posted by lovingdvd View Post
I just noticed the only HSTM artifact I’ve seen yet. Is at the very beginning of guardians of the galaxy volume two. The picture is all black (after the very first intro) and then the opening scene starts with a shot of the sky. You can see within the first second the brightness range across the sky changes and the clouds change in front of your eyes from somewhat crushed to nicely defined. I’m using Neo’s high strength settings with dynamic clipping 70 on and DT of 70. Just curious if anyone can reproduce it?
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Originally Posted by Soulnight View Post
This is the one I already mentioned 2 times now. :-) In v103 and v104. Neo-xp was able to reproduce it as well. (As you can read a few post before) ;-)
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Originally Posted by woofer View Post
Another example of this is in "Oblivion" in the opening of the chapter where the ship has crashed into the sand dunes......the scene starts with a full black then opens panning across the sand dune to the crashed ship. The sand initially is completley blown out then it adapts correctley.
Another one in The Shallows, right at the beginning of chapter 9 (00:45:42). When it comes out of black, the waves are crushed for half a second before highlights come back.

This happens even with a strength of 1, and goes away with 0.

I've disabled HSTM for now for normal playback until this is fixed. It's similar to the highlights crushing artifacts when the DI is enabled in HDR (iris open) on the JVCs, although that only happens on bright objects on dark background.

I'm back to Neo's high curve (starting with 67) and DT75 (possibly DT100) with the new build. I've compared briefly with the new JVC DTM and it seems closer to do not desat than to desat 1. I'm trying to use do not desat and it only bothers me very occasionally.

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post #6995 of 8146 Old 10-21-2019, 03:26 PM
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Originally Posted by Manni01 View Post

I've disabled HSTM for now for normal playback until this is fixed. It's similar to the highlights crushing artifacts when the DI is enabled in HDR (iris open) on the JVCs, although that only happens on bright objects on dark background.



Is this done when you choose HSTM strength of zero? Disable HSTM that is ... I wanted to play with the same



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post #6996 of 8146 Old 10-21-2019, 03:27 PM
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Originally Posted by jk82 View Post
Not sure if related but this video from the spears and munsil disc shows a big black blob in the blue area. The only way to get rid of it is to increase 'real display peak nits' or turn off 'dynamic target nits'.
I have the same artifact I think with Samsung Travel With My Pet HDR UHD 4K Demo at 00:00:08.



The artifact's area is increasing with DT value. I set DT value to 100 here so it's more visible. It happens with HSTM On and Off.
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post #6997 of 8146 Old 10-21-2019, 03:32 PM
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Originally Posted by tommarra View Post
Is this done when you choose HSTM strength of zero? Disable HSTM that is ... I wanted to play with the same



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Yes, HSTM strength = 0 is HSTM disabled.
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post #6998 of 8146 Old 10-21-2019, 03:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Neo-XP View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by woofer View Post
Another example of this is in "Oblivion" in the opening of the chapter where the ship has crashed into the sand dunes......the scene starts with a full black then opens panning across the sand dune to the crashed ship. The sand initially is completley blown out then it adapts correctley.
Yes, I can reproduce that one too. Like the one from Guardians of the Galaxy Vol. 2, it should also be "easy" to fix with immediate HSTM adaptation on gradual FALL increase/decrease.

I guess bad artifacts can happen the other way around if a scene starts from a full white image.

@madshi I have found an extremely bad artifact on Oblivion with HSTM On.

I uploaded a small sample here: https://www.mediafire.com/file/lp6l2l9c0hb5hcp/HSTM_artifact.mkv/file

New best "balanced" settings for me today (the middle ones):



More tests tomorrow, but I am already 99% happy with these.

Thanks! How would you describe your balanced settings results compared to the high strength ones? And are you satisfied with the high strength curve or still tweaking that?
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post #6999 of 8146 Old 10-21-2019, 03:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jk82 View Post
Not sure if related but this video from the spears and munsil disc shows a big black blob in the blue area. The only way to get rid of it is to increase 'real display peak nits' or turn off 'dynamic target nits'.


The saturation options might be responsible for that... If you switch from don't desaturate to desat 1, or desat 1 + 2...the blob and black dot changes shapes.

I've noticed some issues with real life content when the don't desat option is selected (perhaps not a black blob though) (but that topic is for another day )

Last edited by Fer15; 10-21-2019 at 03:49 PM.
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post #7000 of 8146 Old 10-21-2019, 04:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jk82 View Post
Not sure if related but this video from the spears and munsil disc shows a big black blob in the blue area. The only way to get rid of it is to increase 'real display peak nits' or turn off 'dynamic target nits'.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Fer15 View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by jk82 View Post
Not sure if related but this video from the spears and munsil disc shows a big black blob in the blue area. The only way to get rid of it is to increase 'real display peak nits' or turn off 'dynamic target nits'.


The saturation options might be responsible for that... If you switch from don't desaturate to desat 1, or desat 1 + 2...the blob and black dot changes shapes.

I've noticed some issues with real life content when the don't desat option is selected (perhaps not a black blob though) (but that topic is for another day [IMG class=inlineimg]/forum/images/smilies/biggrin.gif[/IMG] )
Humm. I haven’t seen any artifacts at all on this scene with Desaturate 1 and IIRC nothing with Do Not Desaturate either.
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post #7001 of 8146 Old 10-21-2019, 04:33 PM
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Originally Posted by Javs View Post
Yeah I am just 3/4 through watching Jurassic World 2 and the don't desaturate option looks awesome 90% of the time. A tiny bit of clear red clipping occasionally with the lava it looked like, but I am enjoying the colour a lot. Hpefully we can find a happy setting which looks fine lost of the time and keeps as much of this as possible. This is bt2020 I am talking about.

The settings I posted earlier are what I am using for hstm and I'm pretty happy with it, don't feel the need to change them, highlights are smooth.

This is on the JVC with 75 peak nits, I went back to low lamp for now, still plenty bright.

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It really depends what you're watching and what your peak nits is.

If you're watching Blade Runner 2049 with more than 100nits peak, do not desat and desat 1 should look exactly the same for most of the film, as there is nothing to desaturate. The whole film can be seen 1:1. Full saturation, no hightligths compression.

If you watch The Meg, Mad Max or even The Shallows (around 800nits on average, with peaks up to around 2000nits if I remember correctly), there are a lot more highlights so a lot more compression and the difference between no desat and desat 1 is huge. No desat is fine most of the time, as long as there are no highlights especially red ones. Then it loses too much detail and can look overcooked.

I've been playing a bit with no desat, no pretty fire (unnecessary with no desat), and no HSTM, and even Mad Max looks great most of the time.

Anyway, that's a discussion for another day.

In the meantime here are my current settings for watching content (110nits real peak). Not tested properly as I haven't been able to watch a film

I like Neo-XP's new curve by the way (though it's disabled in the attached settings).
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post #7002 of 8146 Old 10-21-2019, 04:50 PM
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For all issues with only occur with HSTM on, but not with HSTM off, can I please have small video samples? I don't care about issues that occur with both HSTM on and off for now.
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post #7003 of 8146 Old 10-21-2019, 05:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fer15 View Post
The saturation options might be responsible for that... If you switch from don't desaturate to desat 1, or desat 1 + 2...the blob and black dot changes shapes.

I've noticed some issues with real life content when the don't desat option is selected (perhaps not a black blob though) (but that topic is for another day )

Yes it might be a saturation problem, with desat 1 the black blob gets smaller and with desat 1+2 it's gone. I haven't seen this in real content yet, so it's not a big deal and it has nothing to do with HSTM so I guess we'll leave it at that for now....
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post #7004 of 8146 Old 10-21-2019, 05:46 PM
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Originally Posted by madshi View Post
For all issues with only occur with HSTM on, but not with HSTM off, can I please have small video samples? I don't care about issues that occur with both HSTM on and off for now.
I don't have an easy way to send you a clip as I rip to BD Folders now, but if no one can send you the first few secs of chapter 9 of The Shallows (ideally with the end and chapter 8 so you have the black before, so 20 secs from 00:45:30 or so) then I'll see what I can do. Let me know!

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post #7005 of 8146 Old 10-21-2019, 06:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by madshi View Post
For all issues with only occur with HSTM on, but not with HSTM off, can I please have small video samples? I don't care about issues that occur with both HSTM on and off for now.
Oblivion HSTM artifact:

https://www.mediafire.com/file/lp6l2...ifact.mkv/file


The Shallows visible HSTM adaptation:

https://www.mediafire.com/file/4moys...tion_.mkv/file


Thanks!
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post #7006 of 8146 Old 10-21-2019, 09:47 PM
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A couple of friends came over tonight and we watched Shazam. After the movie one of them commented that there were a couple of shots of the boys face where the lighting looked a bit harsh. This was an unusual commment of course, and it immediately caught my attention because I figured it must have been a HSTM artifact he noticed. He didn't recall what scene it was, and we went back and looked at some various scenes where his face was in it, but he didn't notice it again. With hindsight it would have been great if I told them to let me know if they notice anything unusual about the lighting, particularly in the faces, as he doesn't remember the scene where he saw it. Too bad, because otherwise we could have gone back to the scene and I could have tweaked some parameters and tried it again.

I'm running with @Neo-XP high strength settings, with dynamic clipping at 70 and DT of 70, with Do Not Desaturate, and 45 peak nits. So perhaps for my setup these settings are a tad bit aggressive? Would it be recommended then to be more conservative and switch to the Balanced settings or Manni's settings (which IIRC are similar to Balanced)? Or is that a bit too significant of a change, and instead maybe try raising (?) DT from 70 to 75, or tweaking in some other way? I guess the first part would be trying to find the specific scene where the artifact occurred so I can experiment. Although I'm not quite ready to watch the entire movie again just yet to look for it.
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post #7007 of 8146 Old 10-22-2019, 01:12 AM
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Need to wait for the sun to set to look properly, but seems I may be close to Neo's latest settings now. Progress I guess .


edit: Looks good so far - edit: sorry wrong ones


Fixed : https://ibb.co/tqrv1nF

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post #7008 of 8146 Old 10-22-2019, 02:52 AM
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Originally Posted by lovingdvd View Post
A couple of friends came over tonight and we watched Shazam. After the movie one of them commented that there were a couple of shots of the boys face where the lighting looked a bit harsh. This was an unusual commment of course, and it immediately caught my attention because I figured it must have been a HSTM artifact he noticed. He didn't recall what scene it was, and we went back and looked at some various scenes where his face was in it, but he didn't notice it again. With hindsight it would have been great if I told them to let me know if they notice anything unusual about the lighting, particularly in the faces, as he doesn't remember the scene where he saw it. Too bad, because otherwise we could have gone back to the scene and I could have tweaked some parameters and tried it again.

I'm running with @Neo-XP high strength settings, with dynamic clipping at 70 and DT of 70, with Do Not Desaturate, and 45 peak nits. So perhaps for my setup these settings are a tad bit aggressive? Would it be recommended then to be more conservative and switch to the Balanced settings or Manni's settings (which IIRC are similar to Balanced)? Or is that a bit too significant of a change, and instead maybe try raising (?) DT from 70 to 75, or tweaking in some other way? I guess the first part would be trying to find the specific scene where the artifact occurred so I can experiment. Although I'm not quite ready to watch the entire movie again just yet to look for it.
DT doesn't seem to make much of a difference over 65 (for example in the latest build I can't see any difference between DT75 and DT100), so I'd try Neo's latest balanced settings (ending with 175) with desat 1. Do not desat can really look overcooked depending on the mastering of the title and your peak nits. I haven't checked Shazam yet, but if it's a high nights title (such as The Meg or Mad Max) the impact of do not desat is very significant. If you do use do not desat (I'm trying to at the moment) make sure that you disable pretty fire, because it's not necessary anymore.

Personally I wouldn't use do not desat with 45 nits peak, because you need to compress the nominal range and highlights a lot, all the time. I would stick to desat 1.

If I had 200nits peak, I think I would have little issue with do not desat. With 110nits, it's fine most of the time, but there are times where it's too much.

Also it could be in the film itself, or in your friend's mind if you asked them and the comment didn't come unprompted. Personally, unless we're talking about the obvious blooming artifact we've reported, I don't think anyone would detect anything with HSTM without an A/B. The changes (at least here) are not that obvious if you use a sensible curve. So if you're happy with your current settings keep them until you notice something. At the moment I'd say it's more likely to be do not desat than the HSTM settings (if there was anything).

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post #7009 of 8146 Old 10-22-2019, 04:25 AM
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Originally Posted by Broags View Post
Need to wait for the sun to set to look properly, but seems I may be close to Neo's latest settings now. Progress I guess .


edit: Looks good so far - edit: sorry wrong ones


Fixed : https://ibb.co/tqrv1nF
I like the one you posted a few days ago:
50-68-86-93-100-104-109-115-130-145-170-200...at least with my OPTOMA UHZ 65 laser calibrated in SDR DCI-P3 gamma 2.2. in bat cave
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Originally Posted by madshi View Post
With "output in HDR format" checked, madVR should send 760nits to the display as the mastering monitor peak and 760/3 (= 253) as maxCLL.
@Manni01 was kind enough to test this (thank You!), did you mean maxFALL for 760/3 (= 253)?
In this case, what should be the value of maxCLL? Same as MDL (760)?

Thanks

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post #7011 of 8146 Old 10-22-2019, 05:20 AM
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Originally Posted by chros73 View Post
@Manni01 was kind enough to test this (thank You!), did you mean maxFALL for 760/3 (= 253)?
In this case, what should be the value of maxCLL? Same as MDL (760)?

Thanks
You're welcome

As discussed on doom9, it looks to me that maxCLL should not change when it's below the min target / real display peak nit and the original metadata looks valid, as seems to be the case here. So here it should remain 577. It should only become min target when the original maxCLL is > min target. With this title it shouldn't make a big difference, but with Blade Runner 2049 and a maxCLL of 181nits, it would if the display uses this value to decide targets for its static tonemapping. But maybe madshi has a reason for always making maxCLL = min target even when it's < to min target. MaxFALL becoming 253 makes sense.
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Originally Posted by Manni01 View Post
it looks to me that maxCLL should not change when it's below MDL and the original metadata looks valid, as seems to be the case here. So here it should remain 577. It should only become MDL when the original maxCLL is > MDL. But maybe madshi has a reason for always making maxCLL = MDL even when it's < to MDL.
Good point (I've just read it at doom9), we talk about:
"Guardians of the Galaxy (2014)": "master luminance" 0.005/4000 ; maxCLL 577 ; maxFALL 512

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post #7013 of 8146 Old 10-22-2019, 05:45 AM
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Are these making any sense (1st line)?



I love how bright they are and what they do on shadow detail (e.g. on night city) and dark scenes.

Good with a high DT value, but I wonder what the catch is...
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post #7014 of 8146 Old 10-22-2019, 05:57 AM
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Tried that in a previous build - but did not look good in some places, try the chess demo - think that would be a good test.
Maybe it looks better now?

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Pick out a tiny bit more detail with this in the 'ornate' picture maybe: https://ibb.co/album/hnO1Aa vs https://ibb.co/VH2bxWn
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post #7016 of 8146 Old 10-22-2019, 10:44 AM
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Originally Posted by Neo-XP View Post
Yes, I can reproduce that one too. Like the one from Guardians of the Galaxy Vol. 2, it should also be "easy" to fix with immediate HSTM adaptation on gradual FALL increase/decrease.

I guess bad artifacts can happen the other way around if a scene starts from a full white image.

@madshi I have found an extremely bad artifact on Oblivion with HSTM On.

I uploaded a small sample here: https://www.mediafire.com/file/lp6l2l9c0hb5hcp/HSTM_artifact.mkv/file

New best "balanced" settings for me today (the middle ones):



More tests tomorrow, but I am already 99% happy with these.
Thanks. I'll give the balanced one a try. Are you still using DT 60 with these? It would be great when you post settings to include that as well, as I never know if maybe you made a small change there too.

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Originally Posted by Manni01 View Post
DT doesn't seem to make much of a difference over 65 (for example in the latest build I can't see any difference between DT75 and DT100), so I'd try Neo's latest balanced settings (ending with 175) with desat 1. Do not desat can really look overcooked depending on the mastering of the title and your peak nits.
I know what you mean about overcooked. If you have Lego Batman, try a scene or two from there with Do Not Desaturate. It's overcooked to an extreme, I suppose because it uses very saturated colors to begin with. At any rate I'm sure this will be fixed once Madshi puts out the Desaturation update.

Quote:
I haven't checked Shazam yet, but if it's a high nights title (such as The Meg or Mad Max) the impact of do not desat is very significant. If you do use do not desat (I'm trying to at the moment) make sure that you disable pretty fire, because it's not necessary anymore.

Personally I wouldn't use do not desat with 45 nits peak, because you need to compress the nominal range and highlights a lot, all the time. I would stick to desat 1.

If I had 200nits peak, I think I would have little issue with do not desat. With 110nits, it's fine most of the time, but there are times where it's too much.
Thanks. This makes sense. It also makes me wonder if having such low nits (45) gives a different result than what others report with their testing but using a much higher peak nits setting. I think Madshi say it shouldn't matter much tho, except perhaps with the saturation as you point out.

Quote:
Also it could be in the film itself, or in your friend's mind if you asked them and the comment didn't come unprompted. Personally, unless we're talking about the obvious blooming artifact we've reported, I don't think anyone would detect anything with HSTM without an A/B. The changes (at least here) are not that obvious if you use a sensible curve. So if you're happy with your current settings keep them until you notice something. At the moment I'd say it's more likely to be do not desat than the HSTM settings (if there was anything).
Well, that's just the thing. I didn't ask them before the movie to keep an eye out for anything that seemed odd, and didn't bring up anything after the movie either. I wasn't even thinking about it at that moment. Then on the way out my friend said "Hey, by the way, I noticed..." and my first thought was nah he must have just imagined something, especially since I didn't notice anything odd. But after thinking about it for a sec I realized that he could have been describing an artifact from HSTM (or Do Not Desaturate).

I asked him today to describe in more detail what he saw, and he said that he thought the boys face in some outdoor scenes had a bit of a "metallic sheen" to it, that it "looked a little like makeup with glitter". So now I'm wondering if the video processing was so exceptional that it was revealing the actors makeup in those scenes. Because I don't think a HSTM artifact would look like that (I'd expect something more like a hotspot or unnatural lighting pattern or unnaturally bright relative to the surrounding lighting). I need to go back and watch the film and try to find what he's taking about to evaluate it further and see if its a real artifact or something in the film.
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post #7017 of 8146 Old 10-22-2019, 11:33 AM
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Yes, HSTM strength = 0 is HSTM disabled.


Thanks!


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post #7018 of 8146 Old 10-22-2019, 11:38 AM
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Originally Posted by Broags View Post
Pick out a tiny bit more detail with this in the 'ornate' picture maybe: https://ibb.co/album/hnO1Aa vs https://ibb.co/VH2bxWn
You should also check with "real" content, because you may find different result with it.

HSTM Off / HSTM On yours (60-175) / HSTM Off mine (100-400)



I don't like the crushed blacks on his hair. It can be fixed with shadow boost, but I prefer to use it the least possible if I can.

Edit:

It can be fixed with this kind of settings, but IIRC madshi said they don't make sense:





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Last edited by Neo-XP; 10-22-2019 at 11:48 AM.
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post #7019 of 8146 Old 10-22-2019, 11:47 AM
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Are these making any sense (1st line)?



I love how bright they are and what they do on shadow detail (e.g. on night city) and dark scenes.

Good with a high DT value, but I wonder what the catch is...
Wow, I tested these briefly and I love them!

I don't know what the catch is with real content either, except that some scenes look a bit dark, for example look at some of the shots on Furiosa driving the truck in Mad Max Fury Road chapter 3, and you'll see what I mean. It's funny because depending on the shots, your settings can be brighter or darker.

Apart from that, they look spectacular on the few clips I watched and add a ton of contrast. It's a bit like switching between a 2.2 and a 2.4 gamma.
I was trying with the following attached settings. (My brief love story with do not desat is over, it's too often overcooked).
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	Settings.PNG
Views:	41
Size:	93.2 KB
ID:	2630666  

Batch Utility V4.02 May 16 2019 to automate measurements files for madVR with support for BD Folders
JVC Macro feature on Vertex/Vertex2/Integral2/Maestro

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post #7020 of 8146 Old 10-22-2019, 12:16 PM
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Originally Posted by Neo-XP View Post
You should also check with "real" content, because you may find different result with it.

HSTM Off / HSTM On yours (60-175) / HSTM Off mine (100-400)



I don't like the crushed blacks on his hair. It can be fixed with shadow boost, but I prefer to use it the least possible if I can.
I'm a bit confused by the screenshots. One of the images seems noticeably brighter than the other two. It seems like the "try to keep FALL" doesn't work here. FYI, technically I'm doing the FALL adjustments in iterations (up to 30). Maybe the number of iterations isn't high enough in this case? If that's true, that would mean you simply tricked the "try to keep FALL" algorithm into not working properly, by starting out with a dramatically too high brightness. That would not be the intended way the algorithm works, though. What is the frame number?

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Originally Posted by Neo-XP View Post
It can be fixed with this kind of settings, but IIRC madshi said they don't make sense
Yes, AFAIK that definitely doesn't make sense. Basically you're telling madVR to compress very rarely used brightness levels much less than brightness levels which are used more often. I can imagine that something like this might work well for some frames, but I can't imagine it working well for a majority of scenes. But what do I know? I won't stop you from experimenting. Maybe for some weird fringe reason this would actually work? But I don't expect it will...

Generally, if you find HSTM parameters which seems to make the overall image darker or brighter in a noticeable way, I would count that as a likely bug, because that's not really supposed to happen.
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