Improving Madvr HDR to SDR mapping for projector - Page 259 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #7741 of 8143 Old 11-08-2019, 09:39 PM
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Well sir, with this (and your advice for "desaturate 1" to help with bright clouds detail), I'm switching my preference to Log.

Thanks!
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post #7742 of 8143 Old 11-08-2019, 11:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by catav View Post
@stevenjw ... A rose by any other name would smell as sweet..... If I had to name it, it would be LV-426.

I still like your LV-426 curve for 1000 nits and below films on my JVC RS540U, and all others with L-80. It seems like Neo-XP just passed yours by. Maybe b/c he is on a OLED? I might just stay here on V110 and use these HSTM settings for my own use. Hope it doesn't come to that. Thanks again for your insight.

A perfectly linear curve: LV-426 (aka L-Diff): Strength=50; 80,105,130,155,180,205,230,255,280,330,380,480.
Thanks, but I really just stole it from Neo and Manni. It's basically L-63 plus 17 which starts at 80. I was just trying to find a happy medium between the two and it seemed to work.

As for Neo being on OLED, I concur with Manni's thought process that those with displays prefer Hill and those with projectors prefer linear. Not sure if that's been definitely proven, but I think that's the case for the most part when folks list their display type along with their preference. I could be wrong, but think there's something to it that @madshi still needs to consider especially since this all will (likely) make its way into the Envy.

I also question relying on screen-shots to compare if they're actually photos, since that's still what's displayed/projected. I'm not sure how Neo and others are capturing the image that they\re posting here. If it's a photo of what they're seeing on an OLED for example, it really doesn't tell me what to expect with the same settings on a projector/screen. Hopefully, I'm wrong, but I just don't know for sure.
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post #7743 of 8143 Old 11-09-2019, 01:30 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chros73 View Post
Mirror: it produced the same black/white images e.g. @ 00:15 Pacific Rim (link above) with the attached settings. Probably the starting value is too low? Same happened with the one that started with 0.
I've attached (resized) screenshots to the above post (Hill vs Mirror).

Frame 1: Hill | Mirror
Click image for larger version

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Frame 2 : Hill | Mirror
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ID:	2638494 Click image for larger version

Name:	02-02-mirror.png
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post #7744 of 8143 Old 11-09-2019, 02:52 AM
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Preferences*

Log/Hill:

- Log/Hill (Neo-XP's versions): (15) Neo-XP, RioBar4U, KoKlusz, SamuriHL, chros73, *Mori*, Icaro, Shinji Mikami, quietvoid, Onkyoman, dimi123, Manni01, SirMaster, ddgdl, CoryW

Linear:

- L-80 (Manni01's version): (23) Manni01, LTD_666, stefanelli73, JonnyVee, Emiliano Del Frate, Shinji Mikami, 3ll3d00d, lovingdvd, zombie10k, claw, Lowlow74, williamss, alps006, neo_2009, jasonwc07, dimi123, Neo-XP, SamuriHL, xton, speedy7461, king conan, ddgdl, cogdok
- L-63 (Neo-XP's version): (8) woofer, Soulnight, AKJ89, AmigoHD, Reezepees, Icaro, BennyTurbo, Boris Zatserkovnyy
- LV-426 (aka L-Diff): (2) catav, stevenjw

Green: could live with L-80 (Manni01's version).

Linear high strength:

- Mirror (Soulnight's version): (3) OnkelB, Jan.2000, MoFa

Log (Neo-XP's version): 100-175-231-264-287-305-320-333-344-362-377-400 (min: 100, range: 300)
Hill (Neo-XP's version): 100-175-225-261-288-308-325-339-350-368-381-400 (min: 100, range: 300, mid: 1, S:1)
L-80 (Manni01's version): 80-110-140-170-200-230-260-290-320-380-440-500
LV-426 (aka L-Diff): 80-105-130-155-180-205-230-255-280-330-380-480
L-63 (Neo-XP's version): 63-88-113-138-163-188-213-238-263-313-363-463
Mirror (Soulnight's version): 25-25-50-75-100-125-150-175-200-250-300-400

* you can vote for 1 hill and 1 linear max. If you vote for other linear settings, please specify if you could live with L-80 (Manni01's version) or if it is impossible for you.

Names*

Hill: conservative, controlled, balanced, subtle, moderate dynamic range, reasonable, restrained, moderate, cautious, neutral, natural, relaxed, organic, for monitors/TVs/flat panel displays(?)
Linear: permissive, liberal, straight, dynamic, high dynamic range, high 3D effect, pop effect, strict, tough, harsh, rough, conventional, for projectors(?)
Linear high strength: radical, extreme, experimental, ultra, immoderate, excessive, intense, unreasonable, high contrast, psychedelic

* you can propose names for each type of curve, they must be intuitive choices for new users (describing the HSTM effect)

Reported issues with Mirror:

Quote:
Originally Posted by chros73 View Post
Mirror: it produced the same black/white images e.g. @ 00:15 Pacific Rim (link above) with the attached settings. Probably the starting value is too low? Same happened with the one that started with 0.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Neo-XP View Post
Trying to watch some Pacific Rim scenes with Mirror, I have another problem: strong flickering on this sequence (when the camera is on Charlie Hunnam): https://www.mediafire.com/file/0fcgz...issue.mkv/file

Pacific Rim, frames 139837 to 140563. No problem (that I could see) with Log or L-80.
Confirmed by Boris Zatserkovnyy (thanks!).
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Last edited by Neo-XP; 11-09-2019 at 03:25 AM.
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post #7745 of 8143 Old 11-09-2019, 03:41 AM
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Ok, I don't really like it, but it seems I have to offer both a Log/Hill and a Linear curve, at the very least.

Regarding L-80 vs Mirror: Have you guys who want to have a Mirror option tried using L-80 with a higher strength? Does Mirror with 50 strength look better than e.g. L-80 with 100 strength? And does L-80 with 50 strength look better than Mirror with 25 strength?

And anyway, does a strength of 50 seem to be the "magical number" which produces the best results for all of the curves?

I'm wondering if we might not need at least 4 settings as follows:

- Log/Mirror 25 strength
- Log/Mirror 50 strength
- L-80 25 strength
- L-80 50 strength

Maybe even smaller steps, like 50, 37.5, 25, 12.5? Maybe also Mirror, but only with 50 strength?
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post #7746 of 8143 Old 11-09-2019, 03:41 AM
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Thanks. To me it looks like the hill settings are actually producing a stronger effect in some of these images compared to the linear settings? Which makes it difficult to find proper names for the options.

Quote:
Originally Posted by chros73 View Post
Mirror: it produced the same black/white images e.g. @ 00:15 Pacific Rim (link above) with the attached settings. Probably the starting value is too low? Same happened with the one that started with 0.
I'm trying to reproduce the problem here, using your attached settings, but I can't seem to be able to make the problem show up. It could be related to which other settings you're using, e.g. calibration and "trade quality". Maybe it would be the easiest if you just uploaded your "settings.bin" file, so I could reproduce with your exact complete settings?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Neo-XP View Post
Trying to watch some Pacific Rim scenes with Mirror, I have another problem: strong flickering on this sequence (when the camera is on Charlie Hunnam): https://www.mediafire.com/file/0fcgz...issue.mkv/file

Pacific Rim, frames 139837 to 140563. No problem (that I could see) with Log or L-80.

Can someone please double check and confirm?
How strong is that flickering. Atm it's too bright here to confirm reliably. Need to wait for the sun to go down. But atm I can't seem to see any flickering. Maybe you could send me your complete settings.bin, as well? Do you have a time code where it happens the strongest, and where exactly do I have to look? Face? Background?
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post #7747 of 8143 Old 11-09-2019, 03:48 AM
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Amazing job, like always. Very hard decision now between Log vs L-80. I voted days ago for L-80 (vs L-63), but now I'm considering revisited same test with Log.

About above frame comparison maybe I missed dark scenes frames. Did you compare both curves in dark scenes?
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post #7748 of 8143 Old 11-09-2019, 04:09 AM - Thread Starter
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Thanks for those interesting sceenshots.

They are are IMHO the few exceptions where it's not clear if L-80 is stronger than Hill/Log. Good job on finding those.

Those are NOT representative at all of 99% of the content.

To all: please do not make a decision based on those.
Neo-XP did an excellent job at finding those exceptions. I never even found those before with A LOT of testing.

I am currently preparing a few more screenshots which are IMHO much more representative of Hill/Log vs L-80 vs Mirror.
Coming in the next hour or so.

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Last edited by Soulnight; 11-09-2019 at 04:15 AM.
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post #7749 of 8143 Old 11-09-2019, 04:30 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by madshi View Post
How strong is that flickering. Atm it's too bright here to confirm reliably. Need to wait for the sun to go down. But atm I can't seem to see any flickering. Maybe you could send me your complete settings.bin, as well? Do you have a time code where it happens the strongest, and where exactly do I have to look? Face? Background?
The flickering is quite strong and it's also happening if you go frame by frame, only with Mirror:



I can see it on the face here (from image 2 to image 3 and from image 8 to image 9) and on the background too on the right side (of the image) of the actor's head.

At frames 227 and 232 of the sample. Full settings and settings.bin in attachment to reproduce the problem.

Thanks!
Attached Thumbnails
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post #7750 of 8143 Old 11-09-2019, 04:42 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Soulnight View Post
They are are IMHO the few exceptions where it's not clear if L-80 is stronger than Hill/Log. Good job on finding those.
I wouldn't say that Log is always stronger than L-80, it is generally the opposite. But I would say that it is stronger (but not excessive) when really needed. That is how I found those examples, because L-80 was lacking depth and switching to Log fixed the problem.

I posted examples where L-80 is stronger than Log here: https://www.avsforum.com/forum/24-di...l#post58782254

But I don't like what L-80 does when it is stronger than Log, it is too strong for me.
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Last edited by Neo-XP; 11-09-2019 at 04:58 AM.
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post #7751 of 8143 Old 11-09-2019, 05:06 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Neo-XP View Post
I wouldn't say that Log is always stronger than L-80, it is generally the opposite. But I would say that it is stronger (but not excessive) when really needed. That is how I found those examples, because L-80 was lacking depth and switching to Log fixed the problem.

I posted examples where L-80 is stronger than Log here: https://www.avsforum.com/forum/24-di...l#post58782254

But I don't like what L-80 does when it is stronger than Log, it is too strong for me.
Thanks for all these examples. I'm hoping to find a bit of time over the week-end to revisit L-80 and your latest.

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post #7752 of 8143 Old 11-09-2019, 05:24 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Soulnight View Post
Thanks for those interesting sceenshots.

They are are IMHO the few exceptions where it's not clear if L-80 is stronger than Hill/Log. Good job on finding those.

Those are NOT representative at all of 99% of the content.

To all: please do not make a decision based on those.
Neo-XP did an excellent job at finding those exceptions. I never even found those before with A LOT of testing.

I am currently preparing a few more screenshots which are IMHO much more representative of Hill/Log vs L-80 vs Mirror.
Coming in the next hour or so.


I haven't voted yet because I can't really say what my favorite is. To be honest, I even had trouble seeing a difference at all until I looked at some scenes from our pro-testers. And once I saw differences, I couldn't decide what to anticipate. If you just look at the screenshots of Neo, it's clearer to me (for whatever reason) and I would vote for Log, but as Souldnight said, it could only be the few exceptions where Log would win. Also, I have no idea if viewing screenshots in a browser is a valid way to judge even if they are used in my environment (JVS7900 calibrated half a year ago and with a dci3dlut, 100nits on a MagicScreen MS Reference 120" in half a dedicated room with everything in black around the screen, including half the ceiling and black courtains like looking in a black whole but not sitting in it).
If judging from these comparable screenshots is really an option, it might be an idea to have a representative sample set that everyone can judge on or even make a poll. On the other hand I would be totally fine to leave the decision completly to our pro-testers since at least for me I have a hard time to decide what I like most

Well, what I see is that HSTM itself has been a big quality leap again and I love it (I didn't expect to get another such quality leap).... great job Madshi and everyone

NoTechi

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post #7753 of 8143 Old 11-09-2019, 05:27 AM - Thread Starter
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HSTM OFF vs LOG vs L80 vs Mirror

Here a few screenshots which are IMHO representative of what we see in movies with Anna.

Comparing: HSTM OFF vs HTSM ON: LOG vs HSTM ON: L-80 vs HSTM ON: Mirror


We can clearly see that there is more contrast going from OFF to log to L-80 to Mirror in each of those examples.

The screenhots have been made with a target of REC709 gamma 2.2 for a higher display compatibility.
As stated before, higher strength of HSTM works often even better when using DCI-P3 instead since you have more graduation in the source to begin with.

Attached the rest of the settings.

HSTM settings with 50% strength:
Log (Neo-XP's version): 100-175-231-264-287-305-320-333-344-362-377-400 (min: 100, range: 300)
L-80 (Manni01's version): 80-110-140-170-200-230-260-290-320-380-440-500
Mirror (Soulnight's version): 25-25-50-75-100-125-150-175-200-250-300-400

Guardians of the galaxy 2
http://www.framecompare.com/image-co...rison/J0CMJNNU
http://www.framecompare.com/image-co...rison/DWZ67NNX
http://www.framecompare.com/image-co...rison/J0CMFNNU
http://www.framecompare.com/image-co...rison/DWZ6WNNX

The MEG
http://www.framecompare.com/image-co...rison/J0CM1NNU
http://www.framecompare.com/image-co...rison/DWZ6GNNX
http://www.framecompare.com/image-co...rison/J0CMMNNU
http://www.framecompare.com/image-co...rison/DWZ6PNNX

Valerian
http://www.framecompare.com/image-co...rison/J0CMCNNU

X-Men Apocalypse
http://www.framecompare.com/image-co...rison/DWZPLNNX
http://www.framecompare.com/image-co...rison/J0C2JNNU
http://www.framecompare.com/image-co...rison/DWZP7NNX
http://www.framecompare.com/image-co...rison/J0C2FNNU
http://www.framecompare.com/image-co...rison/DWZPWNNX
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post #7754 of 8143 Old 11-09-2019, 05:34 AM
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Is it possible that Linear and the other types of curves being suggested are mostly different because of the start and end points more so than the intermediate curve shape? I notice that Hill does not emphasize the specular highlights as much as Linear in many cases (because it ends at 400 rather than 500?) and it seems like it is due to the start and end points more than the curve type.

Could Linear be calibrated to have parameters that are similar to Hill or Log by simply moving the start point to 100 and the end point to 400? I really don't know, but maybe that could eliminate the need to include different curve types by creating a Linear curve that is more balanced towards the middle and lower parts of the gamma curve. I voted for Hill, but I don't find Linear to be that offensive to watch.

I also question whether Manni's curve deserves greater scrutiny and testing because it seems like it was devised by his own sharp eyes and not by any kind of science. By comparison, Neo's curve was created by using math in Excel to draw a smooth curve shape. The result is just a preference towards a specific "gamma," but it seems like a more reliable way to judge whether the curve is faithfully maintaining the correct contours of the image. I question whether Manni's curve is perfectly balanced to the point that it should be become the defacto parameters to work with going forward for watching all movies.

I can see by the number of votes that most projector owners prefer contrast that emphasizes the specular highlights, so it makes sense that curves that really push contrast could be most popular. I think it says most projector owners accept that tone mapping can't replicate the source's brightness, but it can provide an HDR presentation at a lower peak brightness if the curve doesn't compress the midtones too aggressively and crush the bottom of the display range. Most of the HSTM parameters I've tried all manage to do a great job of adding local contrast to the image, so I don't think any HSTM curve design should lack HDR contrast, especially compared to virtually any other dynamic tone mapping solution currently available.

Last edited by Onkyoman; 11-09-2019 at 05:44 AM.
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post #7755 of 8143 Old 11-09-2019, 05:42 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Soulnight View Post
Here a few screenshots which are IMHO representative of what we see in movies with Anna.

Comparing: HSTM OFF vs HTSM ON: LOG vs HSTM ON: L-80 vs HSTM ON: Mirror


We can clearly see that there is more contrast going from OFF to log to L-80 to Mirror in each of those examples.

The screenhots have been made with a target of REC709 gamma 2.2 for a higher display compatibility.
As stated before, higher strength of HSTM works often even better when using DCI-P3 instead since you have more graduation in the source to begin with.
I think I actually prefer Linear80 in the majority of your screenshots. But you can see that is it giving up some detail in the darkest portions of the image, so its boosted local contrast does come at a cost. This loss of detail would be more apparent in the wrong scene.

A comparison like this doesn't necessarily eliminate the argument towards having a more "balanced" option available, either by changing the strength value or by moving the start and end points of the Linear curve.
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post #7756 of 8143 Old 11-09-2019, 06:23 AM
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Has anyone got the timecode for the green spear in Batman v Superman?

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post #7757 of 8143 Old 11-09-2019, 06:31 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Soulnight View Post
Here a few screenshots which are IMHO representative of what we see in movies with Anna.

Comparing: HSTM OFF vs HTSM ON: LOG vs HSTM ON: L-80 vs HSTM ON: Mirror


We can clearly see that there is more contrast going from OFF to log to L-80 to Mirror in each of those examples.

The screenhots have been made with a target of REC709 gamma 2.2 for a higher display compatibility.
As stated before, higher strength of HSTM works often even better when using DCI-P3 instead since you have more graduation in the source to begin with.

Attached the rest of the settings.

HSTM settings with 50% strength:
Log (Neo-XP's version): 100-175-231-264-287-305-320-333-344-362-377-400 (min: 100, range: 300)
L-80 (Manni01's version): 80-110-140-170-200-230-260-290-320-380-440-500
Mirror (Soulnight's version): 25-25-50-75-100-125-150-175-200-250-300-400

Guardians of the galaxy 2
http://www.framecompare.com/image-co...rison/J0CMJNNU
http://www.framecompare.com/image-co...rison/DWZ67NNX
http://www.framecompare.com/image-co...rison/J0CMFNNU
http://www.framecompare.com/image-co...rison/DWZ6WNNX

The MEG
http://www.framecompare.com/image-co...rison/J0CM1NNU
http://www.framecompare.com/image-co...rison/DWZ6GNNX
http://www.framecompare.com/image-co...rison/J0CMMNNU
http://www.framecompare.com/image-co...rison/DWZ6PNNX

Valerian
http://www.framecompare.com/image-co...rison/J0CMCNNU

X-Men Apocalypse
http://www.framecompare.com/image-co...rison/DWZPLNNX
http://www.framecompare.com/image-co...rison/J0C2JNNU
http://www.framecompare.com/image-co...rison/DWZP7NNX
http://www.framecompare.com/image-co...rison/J0C2FNNU
http://www.framecompare.com/image-co...rison/DWZPWNNX
Great examples, the only time when I have reservations about mirror in there, is when there is a close-up on faces. For example I think it goes too far on the close up of the sub pilot in The Meg.

I'll give it a try and I'll tell you if I like what it does at 110nits. But I already feel like I've pushed L-80 as far as I could, and I fear that it might go too far already in a few situations, as pointed by @Neo-XP , so I doubt I'll want to go even further.
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post #7758 of 8143 Old 11-09-2019, 06:32 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Soulnight View Post
Here a few screenshots which are IMHO representative of what we see in movies with Anna.

Comparing: HSTM OFF vs HTSM ON: LOG vs HSTM ON: L-80 vs HSTM ON: Mirror


We can clearly see that there is more contrast going from OFF to log to L-80 to Mirror in each of those examples.

The screenhots have been made with a target of REC709 gamma 2.2 for a higher display compatibility.
As stated before, higher strength of HSTM works often even better when using DCI-P3 instead since you have more graduation in the source to begin with.

Thank you, this is very helpful. I will do more testing of those exact scenes with my color space/gamma targets. I've honestly been going back and forth this whole time. Ugh; I like both Log and L-80.

Thanks!
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post #7759 of 8143 Old 11-09-2019, 06:38 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Manni01 View Post
Great examples, the only time when I have reservations about mirror in there, is when there is a close-up on faces. For example I think it goes too far on the close up of the sub pilot in The Meg.

I'll give it a try and I'll tell you if I like what it does at 110nits. But I already feel like I've pushed L-80 as far as I could, and I fear that it might go too far already in a few situations, as pointed by @Neo-XP , so I doubt I'll want to go even further.
With Anna we think exactly the same. :-)
That's why we both voted for L-63/L-80 and not for mirror which can occasionally go too far on faces.

Still Mirror has some merits on many scenes and I can understand why some people would prefer its higher strength of contrast recovery.

For me, all the testers (and of course Madshi) did a great job for HSTM settings/ testing and we could already now close this chapter now with those 3 strengths for different taste / setup. Only need to agree on the name now.

Last edited by Soulnight; 11-09-2019 at 06:55 AM.
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post #7760 of 8143 Old 11-09-2019, 06:39 AM
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Originally Posted by CoryW View Post
Thank you, this is very helpful. I will do more testing of those exact scenes with my color space/gamma targets. I've honestly been going back and forth this whole time. Ugh; I like both Log and L-80.
That's fine, so do I, we'll most likely have both

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post #7761 of 8143 Old 11-09-2019, 07:23 AM
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Originally Posted by Manni01 View Post
Has anyone got the timecode for the green spear in Batman v Superman?
http://www.framecompare.com/image-co...rison/DWZPGNNX

http://www.framecompare.com/image-co...rison/J0C2MNNU

I have also checked Soulnight's comparisons with my own settings, but I prefer Log in each of them (more balanced, conservative and natural).
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Last edited by Neo-XP; 11-09-2019 at 07:28 AM.
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post #7762 of 8143 Old 11-09-2019, 07:49 AM
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You guys aren't alone in the back and forth between log and l80. Overall on oled log is more balanced. But there are a few scenes where l80 is better.

Sent from my SM-G975U using Tapatalk
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post #7763 of 8143 Old 11-09-2019, 09:07 AM
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Originally Posted by madshi View Post
I'm trying to reproduce the problem here, using your attached settings, but I can't seem to be able to make the problem show up. It could be related to which other settings you're using, e.g. calibration and "trade quality". Maybe it would be the easiest if you just uploaded your "settings.bin" file, so I could reproduce with your exact complete settings?
Thanks
Attached Files
File Type: zip settings.zip (26.4 KB, 14 views)
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post #7764 of 8143 Old 11-09-2019, 10:31 AM
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Glad to see the framecompare website generally being used more. Thanks for that guys. Although it compresses a lot, it hopefully still provides a good representation of the difference between the curves and I find it much easier to use for the comparisons vs several browser tabs.
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post #7765 of 8143 Old 11-09-2019, 10:56 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by madshi View Post
I'm trying to reproduce the problem here, using your attached settings, but I can't seem to be able to make the problem show up. It could be related to which other settings you're using, e.g. calibration and "trade quality". Maybe it would be the easiest if you just uploaded your "settings.bin" file, so I could reproduce with your exact complete settings?
Frame 330 and subsequent (from https://www.mediafire.com/file/0fcgz...issue.mkv/file).
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post #7766 of 8143 Old 11-09-2019, 12:37 PM
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Originally Posted by lovingdvd View Post
Glad to see the framecompare website generally being used more. Thanks for that guys. Although it compresses a lot, it hopefully still provides a good representation of the difference between the curves and I find it much easier to use for the comparisons vs several browser tabs.
you guys should use this one instead. it's way better.

https://slow.pics/comparison
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post #7767 of 8143 Old 11-09-2019, 01:03 PM
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Tried to see the flickering, which Neo-XP posted, but with no success. So I can't confirm.



Soulnight is right about the mirror version sometimes being a little bit too much, but with my setup I can't really notice this.
The L-80 from Manni is fine too, still my vote remains for the mirror version. Also the new Neo-XP version is not that as bad.
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post #7768 of 8143 Old 11-09-2019, 01:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Salty01 View Post
you guys should use this one instead. it's way better.

https://slow.pics/comparison
Thanks, that is indeed much better to compare with a decent quality.

Example: https://slow.pics/comparison/180a55e...5-22a1b83a3344
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post #7769 of 8143 Old 11-09-2019, 02:13 PM
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Originally Posted by catav View Post
@lovingdvd ... I was just wondering, will MadVR, Labs be able to patent HSTM with DTM? Being the first to the show might allow that? Has any other company produced (and patented) this before? That would be a nice leg up over the competition, maybe for years to come. (Maybe hire a patent attorney?)
We won’t comment further, but since you asked ... HSTM and other aspects of our dynamic tone mapping, as well as other video processing innovations of ours (including some that have not been made public yet) are already patent pending.

Last edited by lovingdvd; 11-10-2019 at 09:11 AM.
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post #7770 of 8143 Old 11-09-2019, 02:14 PM
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Originally Posted by Neo-XP View Post
Thanks, that is indeed much better to compare with a decent quality.

Example: https://slow.pics/comparison/180a55e...5-22a1b83a3344
The 1-4 keyboard controls work on this site as well so it's easy to jump between frames for comparison. thanks!
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