Improving Madvr HDR to SDR mapping for projector - Page 278 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #8311 of 8355 Old 12-02-2019, 08:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Polwy View Post
...actually,i don't think it's curve's problem
So with HSTM off you have same problem?

Edit: what version of beta do you have installed?

Last edited by catav; 12-02-2019 at 08:08 PM.
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post #8312 of 8355 Old 12-02-2019, 08:02 PM
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Originally Posted by catav View Post
Which curve were you using and at what peak nits in the HDR tab? Display type?
opps,sorry,100 peak nits,but don't know the TV's type,only know it's Sharp's old model,maybe I can check it when i come home
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post #8313 of 8355 Old 12-02-2019, 08:04 PM
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Originally Posted by catav View Post
So with HSTM off you have same problem?
Uh......i didn't test it,sorry
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post #8314 of 8355 Old 12-02-2019, 08:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Polwy View Post
Uh......i didn't test it,sorry

what version of beta do you have installed?
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post #8315 of 8355 Old 12-02-2019, 08:11 PM
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Originally Posted by catav View Post
what version of beta do you have installed?
112b,still the newest version......right?
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post #8316 of 8355 Old 12-02-2019, 08:22 PM
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Originally Posted by Polwy View Post
112b,still the newest version......right?
Yep! Good job on reporting back. Like your style.
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post #8317 of 8355 Old 12-03-2019, 04:57 AM
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I created this experimental curve to test if there was something left behind with Mirror:

Max depth (Strength 100): 0-50-100-150-250-350-500-750-1000-1250-1500-1750-2000-2500-3000-4000

And there is:

Off / Conservative / Mirror / Max depth


The Avengers - Frame 46928

If the above does not work:



Looking at The Avengers only, this curve is absolutely fantastic IMO, but not with other content when there are small very bright highlights or small dark areas (because they get too much compression).

I wonder if there is a way to use the most strongest curve without having too much compression in some situations?

The same way there is a limiter not to make a pixel brighter than intended, isn't there a way to dynamically limit the compression, only when it is detrimental to the image, so we can get the most of every content?
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Last edited by Neo-XP; 12-03-2019 at 07:38 AM.
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post #8318 of 8355 Old 12-03-2019, 08:32 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by madshi View Post

There have been some in the early days. But at some point it was clear that madVR beats the crap out of most SDR Blu-Rays, so we stopped comparing. If you're interested, here are a couple very old comparisons:

The Last Jedi - scene 1:
madVR tone mapping: http://madvr.com/doom9/hdr/sw1_new.png
SDR Blu-Ray: http://madvr.com/doom9/hdr/sw1_sdr.png

The Last Jedi - scene 2:
madVR tone mapping: http://madvr.com/doom9/hdr/sw2_new.png
SDR Blu-Ray: http://madvr.com/doom9/hdr/sw2_sdr.png

Murder on the Orient Express:
madVR tone mapping: https://ibb.co/kenH4U
SDR Blu-Ray: https://ibb.co/nb0q8p

Of course that's with a rather old madVR build, without HSTM etc.


The simple problem is that usually the SDR Blu-Ray is actually simply a tone mapped version of the UHD HDR Blu-Ray, and more often than not it's rather poorly done. Considering the SDR Blu-Ray to be director's intent would only be valid if the director actually actively supervised the SDR transfer. But that's not the case for most movies today.

To give you a practical example: In Superman vs Batman, there's a scene with a green spear which actually is encoded in yellow in the SDR Blu-Ray. This is caused by the studio using a bad tone mapping algorithm which damaged the hue. The spear is supposed to be green (that's how it's very clearly encoded in the UHD HDR Blu-Ray). So if you consider the SDR Blu-Ray to be the reference for how the director's intent is, then you're actually requiring madVR's tone mapping to simulate all the various bugs and shortcomings of whatever poor quality tone mapping algorithm the studios are using to convert their UHD HDR masters to SDR.

The *actual* director's intent is best judged by watching the UHD Blu-Ray on a true 10,000nits display. Of course we don't have those yet. So there's no easy solution to judge director's intent.
I'm late but thanks a lot for these, that's crytal clear !
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post #8319 of 8355 Old 12-03-2019, 09:19 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by madshi View Post
The more flicker samples, the merrier.
One from The Avengers: https://www.mediafire.com/file/mul5p...urves.mkv/file

Small flickering with 1.0 high, but very bad with the latest strong curve I posted. It happens right after the cut, you can't miss it.
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post #8320 of 8355 Old 12-03-2019, 09:34 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by *Mori* View Post
This is in line with what I have experienced as well:



So far my tests were done in a setup with real target nits 82 nits and a Sony VW760. Typically dynamic target nits I had set to 100 nits. For a friend of mine I have set up madVR on his PC and tested it in setup with real target nits of 180 nits. Also with a Sony VW760. The dynamic target nits I have set then at 150 nits.



Then I repeated some comparisons that I had done before.

1) Neo-XP 1.0 high, Pure Log, Strength 100:

500-903-1076-1178-1306-1390-1479-1581-1653-1709-1754-1793-1826-1882-1928-2000

2) L80

3) Neo-XP new: 1000-1050-1100-1150-1250-1350-1500-1750-2000-2000-2000-2000-2000-2000-2000-2000

4) HSTM off



Some conclusions:

1. HSTM differences became smaller with the brighter setup. However HSTM effects are still positive and very welcome compared to off in all cases (1-3)

2. The old Neo-XP (1) is still my preferred curve. It is in-between the 2 others for Strength.

3. With the 80 nits setup I did not like L80 at all because of black crush and blown out highlights with a Sony 760 at 82 nits. I could not understand why people liked it. Now with the 180 nits setup highlights were quite ok. Also differentiation near black was fine now. Therefore L80 becomes very acceptable then.

4. Sometimes L80 emphasizes picture areas in a way that I think it shouldn't. But this is the price for Strength / pop.

5. (1) is more natural than any other curve that I had tested and ideal IMO for a default curve.

6. There is no curve that is in all scenes clearly the best.



IMHO people with a low nits setup like L80 because the highlights are emphasized strongly. That's why they go for curves with high Strength. Differentiation near black might still be good with L80 when you have a projector with a very good black floor / native contrast.



With the 180 real nits setup (DT 150 nits) Neeo-XP curve (1) gives great HDR effect including a strong 3D effect.. For me here there is no need for any more "pop". Therefore I prefer a curve that is very natural but at the same time still improves the contrast even further compared to HSTM off. That's why also with 180 reals nits the Neo-XP 1.0 high is still my favorite.
Can you pleased Post your HDR madvr settings?

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post #8321 of 8355 Old 12-03-2019, 11:36 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael2907 View Post
Can you pleased Post your HDR madvr settings?

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Flickering sky:
Sully at 00:02:07:00
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post #8322 of 8355 Old 12-03-2019, 11:12 PM
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I watched yesterday the movie 'It Chapter 2' with the new Neo-XP conservativ setting (Str 100: 1000/1175/1250/1294/1349/1386/1425/1469/15001507/1517/1529/1545/1591/1667/2000) and compared it the old one and Fer's 28/31, I was very impresed with the new one. It's clearly better than the old one and it's for me the best conservative curve in the moment.
1. Neo's New
2. Neo's Old
3. Fer 31
4. Fer 28
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post #8323 of 8355 Old 12-03-2019, 11:41 PM
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@michael
Please find attached my setting that I am using atm

@RioBar4U ?
Sounds great. I haven't tried it yet. By Neo's old curve you mean Neo-XP 1.0 high, Pure Log, Strength 100: 500-903-1076-1178-1306-1390-1479-1581-1653-1709-1754-1793-1826-1882-1928-2000 ?

@All
I have tried Neo's conservative (Strength 100): 1000-1349-1500-1588-1699-1772-1849-1938-2000-2000-2000-2000-2000-2000-2000-2000
I didn't like it at all. In this context I have to mention that IMO Neo-XP 1.0 high, Pure Log, Strength 100 is anything but weak and provides in my setup in many cases the best contrast. Mainly because darker elements of a frame are not washed out but still not crushed.
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post #8324 of 8355 Old 12-04-2019, 12:19 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by *Mori* View Post
@michael
Please find attached my setting that I am using atm

@RioBar4U ?
Sounds great. I haven't tried it yet. By Neo's old curve you mean Neo-XP 1.0 high, Pure Log, Strength 100: 500-903-1076-1178-1306-1390-1479-1581-1653-1709-1754-1793-1826-1882-1928-2000 ?
.
Exactly!
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post #8325 of 8355 Old 12-04-2019, 12:27 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Neo-XP View Post
One from The Avengers: https://www.mediafire.com/file/mul5p...urves.mkv/file

Small flickering with 1.0 high, but very bad with the latest strong curve I posted. It happens right after the cut, you can't miss it.
thanks to this small clip I ended up watching the entire movie until 2am. I could see the flicker in that scene with the strong curve but was very minimal with Neo-XP 1.0 high which is still my favorite with the JVC & 142" 16:9 setup.

The Avengers and Ant-man both looked incredible! This curve still seems to be a fan favorite for the projector owners.
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post #8326 of 8355 Old 12-04-2019, 01:29 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by *Mori* View Post
@michael
Please find attached my setting that I am using atm

@RioBar4U ?
Sounds great. I haven't tried it yet. By Neo's old curve you mean Neo-XP 1.0 high, Pure Log, Strength 100: 500-903-1076-1178-1306-1390-1479-1581-1653-1709-1754-1793-1826-1882-1928-2000 ?

@All
I have tried Neo's conservative (Strength 100): 1000-1349-1500-1588-1699-1772-1849-1938-2000-2000-2000-2000-2000-2000-2000-2000
I didn't like it at all. In this context I have to mention that IMO Neo-XP 1.0 high, Pure Log, Strength 100 is anything but weak and provides in my setup in many cases the best contrast. Mainly because darker elements of a frame are not washed out but still not crushed.
Mori,
What about the 82nits you write Few days ago?
Muss das jetzt in Deutsch schreiben, da mein english dafür nicht ausreicht.
Hast du die Werte jetzt einfach angehoben auf 180, obwohl du nur 82 hast?
Oder hast du was an deinem Setup verändert?

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post #8327 of 8355 Old 12-04-2019, 02:52 AM
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Hi Michael. I'm DrWhy in the HIFI- Forum.
No the 82 nits are in my Setup with my VW760. The 180 nits are in Mori's home cinema with also a VW760 but an other screen szice and gain. He has set up a HTPC for his own now and joins our club.
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post #8328 of 8355 Old 12-04-2019, 10:53 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RioBar4U View Post
Hi Michael. I'm DrWhy in the HIFI- Forum.

No the 82 nits are in my Setup with my VW760. The 180 nits are in Mori's home cinema with also a VW760 but an other screen szice and gain. He has set up a HTPC for his own now and joins our club.
OK
Also kannst du dann Mal sende settings einstellen falls du andere hast?

Can you please Post your settings If they are Others?

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post #8329 of 8355 Old 12-04-2019, 01:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Neo-XP View Post
I created this experimental curve to test if there was something left behind with Mirror:

Max depth (Strength 100): 0-50-100-150-250-350-500-750-1000-1250-1500-1750-2000-2500-3000-4000

Looking at The Avengers only, this curve is absolutely fantastic IMO, but not with other content when there are small very bright highlights or small dark areas (because they get too much compression).
I tried to watch IT II with this curve, but unfortunately, this curve is too strong, faces did not look natural.
Even with mirror the faces were a bit unnatural, but the added contrast and depth was amazing, particularly on night scenes with lots of HDR highlights.
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post #8330 of 8355 Old 12-04-2019, 01:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by neo_2009 View Post
I tried to watch IT II with this curve, but unfortunately, this curve is too strong, faces did not look natural.
Even with mirror the faces were a bit unnatural, but the added contrast and depth was amazing, particularly on night scenes with lots of HDR highlights.

This curve was not supposed to be used seriously, at least not with a strong compression limiter
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post #8331 of 8355 Old 12-04-2019, 02:52 PM
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BTW, I watched Easy Rider with the Equalizer curve:

(Strength 100) 1000-1050-1100-1150-1250-1350-1500-1750-2000-2000-2000-2000-2000-2000-2000-2000

Still no problem found with this one with a few titles watched from start to end now, and it is sometimes quite strong. No flickering detected either.

I also lowered DT a bit to get more brightness now that HSTM gives me more HDR effect.

I also took the opportunity to tweak the dynamic shadow boost settings, to reduce its strength when not really needed:



Edit: Shadow boost is fully activated only when there is a risk of losing shadow detail, even on very small areas, but with less strength not to reduce the HDR effect too much.

And therefore, DT is increased a bit to compensate:



Looks good now

Edit2: Setting 0% of the pixels below 1 nits causes a brightness jump at frame 2036 of the Spears & Munsil UHD HDR Benchmark...

So I changed it to 1%:



Edit3: 1% is not safe either...

Edit4: ...but 10% seems ok:

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post #8332 of 8355 Old 12-05-2019, 01:44 PM
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Hi everyone, I am new to madVR and thanks a lot for all your great contribution here!

It's gorgeous and, imho, better than JVC's DTM. However, I also found a problem with madVR. I noticed some color noise in some pictures with madVR, which is not there when I using UB820 or OPPO. I attached a picture. It looks like ringing artifact.
Is there any setting in madVR that can reduce this kind of artifact? I tried different settings in the upscaling, but nothing worked even with the softest setting. The only setting reduced the artifact is Random Noise Reduction, which smeared details as well.


Thank you in advance for any help!
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post #8333 of 8355 Old 12-06-2019, 02:36 AM
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This topic is for improving madVR.
I would ask your question in the support thread.
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post #8334 of 8355 Old 12-06-2019, 03:11 PM
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Noticed flickering in Oceans Our Blue Planet at 25:40-25:45 (Sky and the green on the Island)

Using
Fer15 f31
str 50 - 200 1021 113 1166 1234 1278 1325 1379 1417 1446 1470 1491 1508 1538 1562 1600
Neo-XP 1.0 high, pure log
str 100 - 500 903 1079 1178 1306 1390 1479 1581 1653 1709 1754 1793 1826 1882 1928 2000

Did not see it with hstm off or with an old one I think is Fer15

str 35 - 380 880 1280 1590 2070 2400 2760 3140 3380 3540 3660 3750 3820 3930 4000 4100

Rest settings the same as Neo-XP
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post #8335 of 8355 Old 12-07-2019, 07:23 PM
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Something is up. This thread has died. Maybe a new official MadVR will be announced soon....I’m sure the Envy is getting close to being finalized so a new version of MadVR will hopefully be released soon. Thank you Madshi and all the others that worked so hard to get MadVR to this level!

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post #8336 of 8355 Old 12-07-2019, 09:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Clark Burk View Post
Something is up. This thread has died..
I don't think so. Most of the contributors live on the other side of the world, to us USA folk. So they snooze while we are active. Madshi is just getting ready to wind down HSTM development and pull it all together with a solid user interface. Get ready for some real fun!

edit: This is the first international project, I have ever been involved with. Isn't the internet cool!

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post #8337 of 8355 Old 12-08-2019, 11:25 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by catav View Post
I don't think so. Most of the contributors live on the other side of the world, to us USA folk. So they snooze while we are active. Madshi is just getting ready to wind down HSTM development and pull it all together with a solid user interface. Get ready for some real fun!

edit: This is the first international project, I have ever been involved with. Isn't the internet cool!
I think it looks so good, everyone is busy watching movies...

We've been on a movie marathon run, Daniel Craig collection, John Wick 3, Hobbs and Shaw and just watched Once Upon a Time in Hollywood last night. All the movies looked amazing!!

With all these great actors, MadVR is still the star of the show.
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post #8338 of 8355 Old 12-08-2019, 12:30 PM
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Don't want to clutter up the development thread, but just feel like I need to say thanks to all the people helping with this effort. It has breathed new life in to my RS540.
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post #8339 of 8355 Old 12-08-2019, 12:37 PM
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Originally Posted by zombie10k View Post
I think it looks so good, everyone is busy watching movies...
So very true...
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post #8340 of 8355 Old 12-08-2019, 03:16 PM
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It would be nice if we can go to the next round. I think hstm is almost done? All the new curves are so/so and nothing so far is better then the known curves we already had..

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