Improving Madvr HDR to SDR mapping for projector - Page 289 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #8641 of 9394 Old 01-23-2020, 07:31 AM
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I prefer a system that is automated and that I don't have to touch, instead of changing and switching the curves depending on the film. I will only decide on one curve once they are fixed and it will stay there forever, and that is already possible, at least for me with the current curves.

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post #8642 of 9394 Old 01-23-2020, 08:02 AM
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Adding a Custom curve does not mean deleting existing pre-selectable ones

Sorry for my bad English
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post #8643 of 9394 Old 01-23-2020, 08:38 AM
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I was more thinking if some are still switching curves depending on the movie it might be worth to take a look if that could be automated. First question would be what is the difference bewteen those movies and then what are the charactristics of the curves working best for a specific type of movie. In the long run, there might even be dynamic curves, depending on the movie and probably also some presets like display type and ambient light.


Having said that for my taste even one of current curves would be sufficient and we could go on to next stage of improving something else


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post #8644 of 9394 Old 01-23-2020, 11:09 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Icaro View Post
Neo, do you have the chance to try the Conservative Log with "Guardians of the galaxy"?
I had to switch to Neo-XP 1.0 High with this movie,
on my old LCD panel with 74 nit peaks, the Conservative Log appears dull and little contrasted.
Thanks
Yes, but I did not find a scene where Conservative Log was overall duller or less contrasted compared to HSTM off, did you?

In this scene for instance, I hate what Neo-XP's 1.0 High is doing with contrast on faces and scenery:

Disabled / Manni's L80 / Soulnight's Mirror / Neo-XP's Equalizer



Fer15's old Medium / Neo-XP's 1.0 High / Hill Conservative (Fer15) / Log Conservative (Neo-XP)



Hill Strong / Log Strong / Hill/Log Strong blend


Guardians of the Galaxy - Frame 156953

Neo-XP's 1.0 High is the flattest here, worse than HSTM off and very slightly worse than the Equalizer (or equally bad).
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post #8645 of 9394 Old 01-23-2020, 11:24 AM
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@Neo-XP

Thanks Neo,
then in my case it is the other settings of the Tone mapping, which affect the final rendering.
I use settings different from yours:

Sorry for my bad English
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post #8646 of 9394 Old 01-23-2020, 11:39 AM
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On my vpr (OPTOMA UHZ 65 laser, target nits: 84, SDR DCI-P3, screen: 110", gain 1.2, bat cave) i prefer HILL/LOG STRONG BLEND....and FER'S 15 OLD MEDIUM also.
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post #8647 of 9394 Old 01-23-2020, 11:51 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Icaro View Post
@Neo-XP

Thanks Neo,
then in my case it is the other settings of the Tone mapping, which affect the final rendering.
I use settings different from yours:
With your exact settings:

Disabled / Neo-XP's 1.0 High / Log Conservative (Neo-XP)



It is strange how it changes the results. Disabled is the worst (as it would be ), but Log Conservative is stronger than Neo-XP's 1.0 High

I don't know how to interpret this...
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post #8648 of 9394 Old 01-23-2020, 12:03 PM
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Big question is: Which of the settings exactly causes the difference here? Probably the "display peak luminance"?
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post #8649 of 9394 Old 01-23-2020, 12:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by madshi View Post
Big question is: Which of the settings exactly causes the difference here? Probably the "display peak luminance"?
Yes, when comparing HSTM off to 1.0 High:

- With my settings, only changing the display peak luminance to 74: the contrast effect changes in favor of 1.0 High

- With Icaro's setting, only changing the display peak luminance to 150: the contrast effect changes in favor of HSTM off
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post #8650 of 9394 Old 01-23-2020, 12:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by madshi View Post
Big question is: Which of the settings exactly causes the difference here? Probably the "display peak luminance"?
Certainly partly the "peak luminance display"
But in my opinion also, the "Sky strenghth", "Max width" and "min / max hill height".

Already some time ago, I tried with the same values as Neo-XP, but to me (probably they are personal tastes), those values generate an image too processed, it adds boost, but too charged even in the contrast (see clouds or shades of the skin).
This is why I chose those values, for the most natural result possible, in contrast and that retains micro-details and every shade of the skin.

Sorry for my bad English
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post #8651 of 9394 Old 01-23-2020, 12:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Neo-XP View Post
Yes, when comparing HSTM off to 1.0 High:

- With my settings, only changing the display peak luminance to 74: the contrast effect changes in favor of 1.0 High

- With Icaro's setting, only changing the display peak luminance to 150: the contrast effect changes in favor of HSTM off
Ok Neo,
however it is strange, above a user (AmigoHD), with 37 peak nits, he still preferred the Log conservative

Edit:
Anyway, in general
I also prefer the "Log conservative", but with some movies, such as "Guardians of the galaxy" this does not fit well in my setup,
while with others, (eg "Exodus: Gods and Kings"), it goes very very well

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post #8652 of 9394 Old 01-23-2020, 01:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Keith AP View Post
Finally had a chance to test with the 113 version. What I'm seeing is some very strong flickering in Mortal Engines - in the scene between 23:50 - 24:10 - on the forehead of the girl. This when using "Hill/Log Strong Blend". I also see it to a smaller degree with Neo-XP 1.0, and not at all with Manni-L80.
Quote:
Originally Posted by noob00224 View Post
Not seeing the flicker.
Also do you really have 35 nits on a 5050UB? That screen has 0.8-1.0 gain. What size?
No, the 35 nits is using my BenQ W1070 1080p projector (ECO mode). Screen 2.40:1 is 114" diagonal (44x105).

With my EPSON (attachment) I run 75 nits. The flicker I see is consistent across projectors. As I stare at her upper forehead at the part in her hair, I see a flicker (almost like a ceiling fan rotating above) especially when she walks towards the end of the platform at us, then when she backs a bit and looks upwards.

I don't see this when I select Manni L80, but certainly do with the Hill/Log Blend, and some others. Maybe it's affected by a particular configuration setting(s).

Probably goes without saying my choice is Manni L80.

FWIW: Running a GTX 1070 8GB - IGNORE all the frame errors reported on the OSD report, I didn't clear them when testing.
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post #8653 of 9394 Old 01-23-2020, 04:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Keith AP View Post
No, the 35 nits is using my BenQ W1070 1080p projector (ECO mode). Screen 2.40:1 is 114" diagonal (44x105).

With my EPSON (attachment) I run 75 nits. The flicker I see is consistent across projectors. As I stare at her upper forehead at the part in her hair, I see a flicker (almost like a ceiling fan rotating above) especially when she walks towards the end of the platform at us, then when she backs a bit and looks upwards.

I don't see this when I select Manni L80, but certainly do with the Hill/Log Blend, and some others. Maybe it's affected by a particular configuration setting(s).

Probably goes without saying my choice is Manni L80.

FWIW: Running a GTX 1070 8GB - IGNORE all the frame errors reported on the OSD report, I didn't clear them when testing.
I can see it in this scene in the hair, but I had to look for it.
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post #8654 of 9394 Old 01-23-2020, 04:20 PM
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As I've posted before, the Lucy scene where Morgan Freeman is lecturing against a white PowerPoint slide results in unwatchable levels of flicker with strong curves, if anyone wants to test it out
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post #8655 of 9394 Old 01-23-2020, 09:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ddgdl View Post
As I've posted before, the Lucy scene where Morgan Freeman is lecturing against a white PowerPoint slide results in unwatchable levels of flicker with strong curves, if anyone wants to test it out
I also see flicker in that scene with Log Strong. No flicker with Log Conservative.

Same HDR settings used for both Strong and Conservative:
https://www.avsforum.com/forum/attac...6&d=1579749685

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post #8656 of 9394 Old 01-24-2020, 01:46 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Neo-XP View Post
Yes, when comparing HSTM off to 1.0 High:

- With my settings, only changing the display peak luminance to 74: the contrast effect changes in favor of 1.0 High

- With Icaro's setting, only changing the display peak luminance to 150: the contrast effect changes in favor of HSTM off

Thanks Neo,
tonight, taking inspiration from your answer and new tests, I came to this:
the "best adaptable curve" for any type of movies?
In my case it is
HSTM off.
with the rest of the Tone mapping settings finely set, I have a well balanced overall rendering in each parameter (Contrast, detail, color saturation and three-dimensionality), and I think it is as conservative as possible.
Until now with curves, it was impossible to adapt them to any type of movies, even the best for me, with some titles it was not good, they are like a kind of mask or a 3DLut created on other setups, not always adaptable in any situation ...
With the new settings I solved it.
Try it too

Sorry for my bad English
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post #8657 of 9394 Old 01-24-2020, 06:23 AM
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I'm not really a potter fan as such but if anyone is interested a really good scene for testing tone mapping / highlight recovery etc is the fight between Valdermort and Harry potter at the end of the goblet of fire, where the ghosts come out of his wand. Wthout MADVR tone mapping there is no detail at all in the highlights with low NIT displays like mine, just blobs, with tone mapping the difference is incredible..
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post #8658 of 9394 Old 01-24-2020, 06:24 AM
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Name of the Movie ? Timestamp ?

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post #8659 of 9394 Old 01-24-2020, 06:54 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mclingo McKeown View Post
I'm not really a potter fan as such but if anyone is interested a really good scene for testing tone mapping / highlight recovery etc is the fight between Valdermort and Harry potter at the end of the goblet of fire, where the ghosts come out of his wand. Wthout MADVR tone mapping there is no detail at all in the highlights with low NIT displays like mine, just blobs, with tone mapping the difference is incredible..
With HSTM Off, tone mapping is still active.
In my case, the rendering of detail is superior without the "mask" of the HSTM curves
Try it with these settings

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post #8660 of 9394 Old 01-24-2020, 07:39 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Neo-XP View Post
The best for me in this scene is Log Conservative (lowest milkiness).



Log Conservative is more contrasty than HSTM off here, although not the strongest. L80 and Mirror are less contrasty compared to HSTM off.



No problem with Log Conservative.



Log Conservative is stronger than Fer15's old Medium and Neo-XP 1.0 High here.



I didn't notice any flickering with Log Conservative.



Log Conservative would do, but you discarded it at 4)

I don't think it is possible to meet all your criteria if you want a less conservative curve than Log Conservative...

Maybe this one?

Pure Log, strength 100:

500-836-980-1065-1172-1242-1316-1401-1461-1507-1545-1578-1605-1652-1690-1750
Following up on this, it really looks like settings have a strong influence here. As you know, I used all your settings for this testing, except peak (116) and DT (100).

I double checked log conservative and it is DEFINITELY less contrasty here than L80 and 1.0 High in The Meg at 72231, and also at 12387. Neither 1.0 High nor L80 are less contrasty than HSTM off on 72231 here. Please try with my settings, hopefully you can confirm this.

So I confirm that unfortunately, log conservative is too conservative for me. Its main benefit is that it doesn't flicker, but I'd leave A LOT of contrast on the table compared to 1.0 High with my settings.

The strong curves (all of them) flicker like hell so are not usable to me, beyond the harshness on skin tones.

I used Lucy from around 24190 to check for this, as most people seem to have this title.

L80 doesn't flicker either, but I prefer 1.0 High over it for other reasons (hoping the flickering will be addressed).

EDIT: However, I did test briefly the suggested curve above in 112, and it doesn't seem to flicker. I couldn't compare it to the other curves though, so @madshi please could you add this curve in the next round? It seems to be stronger than the conservative ones, but doesn't flicker.
EDIT2: scratch that, I had forgotten to set the strength to 100 (it was set to the default of 50), and it flickers at 100.

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post #8661 of 9394 Old 01-24-2020, 08:17 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BerndFfm View Post
Name of the Movie ? Timestamp ?

Bernd
As I said Goblet of fire, there is a few mins of this so its hard to miss, start looking around 2:09
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post #8662 of 9394 Old 01-24-2020, 09:39 AM
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I see many example screen shots in this thread where the "dynamic target nits" is < "display peak nits" but others have them matched.

Does having "dynamic target nits" lower allow room for the specular hightlights or what is the logic for setting these different?

Thanks
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post #8663 of 9394 Old 01-24-2020, 09:56 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fingersdlp View Post
I see many example screen shots in this thread where the "dynamic target nits" is < "display peak nits" but others have them matched.

Does having "dynamic target nits" lower allow room for the specular hightlights or what is the logic for setting these different?

Thanks
Lowering target nits will not compress the image and not leave room for hightlights. A higher value is required.
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post #8664 of 9394 Old 01-24-2020, 10:01 AM
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Could someone please explain what every HDR option does?
The amount of options is stupefying compared to the last build.
Thanks!


PS.
MPC-HC crashes with Smooth Motion enabled, already reported.

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post #8665 of 9394 Old 01-24-2020, 11:20 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by noob00224 View Post
Lowering target nits will not compress the image and not leave room for hightlights. A higher value is required.
You mean above the Actual Peak Nits? For ~80 nits real measured - what would you say the Dynamic value should be. I use 50 because it gives more 'pop' to the image. Any recommendations would be appreciated.

I thought Dynamic Target was scaling factor vs. an absolute factor.

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post #8666 of 9394 Old 01-24-2020, 11:31 AM
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@tommarra

Me with 74 peak nits, I stay fixed on 50 DTN.
Whatever it is (in my opinion),
it is advisable not to go beyond 60/65 with the DTN
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post #8667 of 9394 Old 01-24-2020, 11:35 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tommarra View Post
You mean above the Actual Peak Nits? For ~80 nits real measured - what would you say the Dynamic value should be. I use 50 because it gives more 'pop' to the image. Any recommendations would be appreciated./
Less and the image is brighter with less HDR effect, more is the reverse. There's no correct value, it's up to individual preferences.

Quote:
Originally Posted by tommarra View Post
I thought Dynamic Target was scaling factor vs. an absolute factor.
You might be referring to No compression limit.
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post #8668 of 9394 Old 01-24-2020, 01:28 PM
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Originally Posted by noob00224 View Post
Less and the image is brighter with less HDR effect, more is the reverse. There's no correct value, it's up to individual preferences.
Thanks for all that replied.
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post #8669 of 9394 Old 01-24-2020, 01:53 PM
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This post by SirMaster helped me greatly to understand the parameters:
https://www.avsforum.com/forum/24-di...l#post58933614

After playing with all the parameters, here is what I think:
First I set the peak luminance to 100 nits since I use a flat panel.
All the recovery options Disabled, they seem to be 'enhancement' or 'hot fixes' options rather than dynamic range scaling related.
"no compr limit" set to 0 to always scale to peak nits.

The most interesting options is "dynamic target nits".
To me it looks like it fixes over exposed scenes to bring some contrast back but doesn't touch darker scenes, not unlike what a professional colorist will do in the studio scene by scene.
This option depends on the ambient room lighting and personal preference.

I find Peak 100 and Target 25 looks like the SDR version of the movie,, but Peak 25 and Target 250 doesn't look bad either.
It's like grading and mastering the movie to your liking from the original high dynamic range negative right in madVR. Super awesome I'd say!
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post #8670 of 9394 Old 01-24-2020, 07:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by James Freeman View Post
This post by SirMaster helped me greatly to understand the parameters:
https://www.avsforum.com/forum/24-di...l#post58933614

After playing with all the parameters, here is what I think:
First I set the peak luminance to 100 nits since I use a flat panel.
All the recovery options Disabled, they seem to be 'enhancement' or 'hot fixes' options rather than dynamic range scaling related.
"no compr limit" set to 0 to always scale to peak nits.

The most interesting options is "dynamic target nits".
To me it looks like it fixes over exposed scenes to bring some contrast back but doesn't touch darker scenes, not unlike what a professional colorist will do in the studio scene by scene.
This option depends on the ambient room lighting and personal preference.

I find Peak 100 and Target 25 looks like the SDR version of the movie,, but Peak 25 and Target 250 doesn't look bad either.
It's like grading and mastering the movie to your liking from the original high dynamic range negative right in madVR. Super awesome I'd say!
Display peak luminance should be set to what the display's actual nits is. I don't know what panel has 100 nits, a lot of regular TV's have 300.
What display?

In any case, this discussion should be moved here:
https://www.avsforum.com/forum/26-ho...thread-65.html
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