Improving Madvr HDR to SDR mapping for projector - Page 309 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #9241 of 9283 Old 05-18-2020, 06:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Balbolito View Post
At the moment i am running madVR on my desktop and it has a 4K 32'' LED Samsung monitor(SDR, no HDR support)

When i run a 4K HDR movie i know it's doing tone mapping cause i can clearly see movies in HDR (colors) playing fine . The movie is playing in it's native resolution which is 4k.

1.Is there any benefit if i downscale it to 1080p and let it do tone mapping? or since my monitor is 4k should i just keep it that way? i am noticing most people scale the movie from 4k HDR to 1080p.

If it's better to downscale the movie from 4k to 1080p is there a profile rule i could add ? or how could i apply the scaling?


PC has a crappy 1030 GPU just learning most of the basics before i apply them to my HTPC (which has a 2060 Super 8GB GPU)

On the other hand, my HTPC is connected to my PJ which has HDR . so should i stick with movies also at 4k or let it downscale them?

Sorry if this has been asked but i am honestly reading for more than a week about madVR and trying to learn most of the features myself. Thank you in advance.

PS:using madVR 113
I would just be working with the HTPC (which has a 2060 Super 8GB GPU) for setup. Your desktop PC can get you started, but you need to dial in the processing, scaling algos, and rendering for the HTPC, not the desktop PC, eventually. The two PC's could need totally different settings. Your HTPC GPU should work just fine for medium level madVR settings. Just follow some of the postings here, especially for HDR tab options and you should be good to go.

Just stay with 4K HDR processing. On HDR tab, use "tone map HDR using pixel shaders", set your min target /real display nits to around 100 or less and don't check "output video in HDR format". Set your PJ to BT2020, SDR mode and you're about done. Everything else is personal preference and depends on the GPU power for best picture. Good luck.
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post #9242 of 9283 Old 05-18-2020, 08:49 PM
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@catav Thanks appreciate the reply. yes for sure that is what i am gonna do. at the moment i am just trying to learn some basic rules, difference between all the settings and creating profiles. its a bit more practical to start on the desktop just to experiment.

Would you recommend two color profiles in madVR if i run HDR movies to let it switch to BT2020? and SDR movies to be in 709?

Or should i just keep my PJ always at BT2020 SDR mode? and let it to the switch to HDR if needed.

Thanks again
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post #9243 of 9283 Old 05-18-2020, 10:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Balbolito View Post
@catav Thanks appreciate the reply. yes for sure that is what i am gonna do. at the moment i am just trying to learn some basic rules, difference between all the settings and creating profiles. its a bit more practical to start on the desktop just to experiment.

Would you recommend two color profiles in madVR if i run HDR movies to let it switch to BT2020? and SDR movies to be in 709?

Or should i just keep my PJ always at BT2020 SDR mode? and let it to the switch to HDR if needed.

Thanks again
I just use one color profile (BT2020) for both SDR (Rec709) and HDR 4K. I have not had any problems with Rec709 vs BT2020 source. For me, Rec709 is not overly saturated. Some members will setup two profiles, but I just don't see the need. You should feel free to test which works best for you.
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post #9244 of 9283 Old 05-19-2020, 12:42 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Balbolito View Post
At the moment i am running madVR on my desktop and it has a 4K 32'' LED Samsung monitor(SDR, no HDR support)

When i run a 4K HDR movie i know it's doing tone mapping cause i can clearly see movies in HDR (colors) playing fine . The movie is playing in it's native resolution which is 4k.

1.Is there any benefit if i downscale it to 1080p and let it do tone mapping? or since my monitor is 4k should i just keep it that way? i am noticing most people scale the movie from 4k HDR to 1080p.

If it's better to downscale the movie from 4k to 1080p is there a profile rule i could add ? or how could i apply the scaling?


PC has a crappy 1030 GPU just learning most of the basics before i apply them to my HTPC (which has a 2060 Super 8GB GPU)

On the other hand, my HTPC is connected to my PJ which has HDR . so should i stick with movies also at 4k or let it downscale them?

Sorry if this has been asked but i am honestly reading for more than a week about madVR and trying to learn most of the features myself. Thank you in advance.

PS:using madVR 113
Just because you see colors it does not mean it's doing tone mapping.

There is no benefit to downscaling to 1080p. The reason people do that is because they don't have 4K displays. It also takes GPU resources to downscale.

The UHZ65 covers ~87% of DCI P3 so 2020 should be used.

The color gamut issue has been discussed on this thread as well as here:
https://www.avsforum.com/forum/26-ho...l#post59603520
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post #9245 of 9283 Old 05-19-2020, 06:12 AM
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Honestly, using madvr with 2 different displays (and different settings) can be a real pain.


After countless hours trying to use profile rules and custom timings to make everything work as intended on both my TV (LG C8) and Sony HW40ES (PJ), including custom timings, I just created a dual boot on my HTPC with two entirely different (and separated) Windows 10 installs. It took me half an hour and it works like a charm...


It solved Windows problems too, since the OS often tried to send a 4K signal to my 1080p projector, which resulted in a blank picture, reboot, etc.

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post #9246 of 9283 Old 05-19-2020, 08:07 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DocCharky View Post
Honestly, using madvr with 2 different displays (and different settings) can be a real pain.

After countless hours trying to use profile rules and custom timings to make everything work as intended on both my TV (LG C8) and Sony HW40ES (PJ), including custom timings, I just created a dual boot on my HTPC with two entirely different (and separated) Windows 10 installs. It took me half an hour and it works like a charm...

It solved Windows problems too, since the OS often tried to send a 4K signal to my 1080p projector, which resulted in a blank picture, reboot, etc.
That's a good plan.

Taking that to the next logical step, I have 3 HTPCs in my HT:

1 optimized for HD media including Blu ray (Outputs 1920x1080 23.976 Hz)
1 optimized for 3D Blue ray media (Outputs 1920x2205 23.976 Hz Frame Packed)
1 optimized for UHD media (Outputs 3840x2160 23.976 Hz)
all running Windows 8.1 (although I run Windows 10 on a couple of laptops, I simply don't trust MS to deliver a stable HTPC environment.)

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post #9247 of 9283 Old 05-19-2020, 10:39 AM
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I notice that this thread is updated with new posts, then disappointed when the new posts belong elsewhere.

Guide to Building a MadVR HTPC thread:

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/26-ho...tpc-madvr.html

MadVR Player Support thread:

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/26-ho...rt-thread.html
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post #9248 of 9283 Old 05-19-2020, 01:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by noob00224 View Post
Just because you see colors it does not mean it's doing tone mapping.

There is no benefit to downscaling to 1080p. The reason people do that is because they don't have 4K displays. It also takes GPU resources to downscale.

The UHZ65 covers ~87% of DCI P3 so 2020 should be used.

The color gamut issue has been discussed on this thread as well as here:
https://www.avsforum.com/forum/26-ho...l#post59603520
Thanks appreciate the help.

So would you recommend i set it to 2020 in madVR for Everything? SDR 1080 > 4K and 4K HDR content? and no need for two color profiles.

How about in my PJ?

Sorry if i am asking a lot this is new to me and it's overwhelming.

Thanks again

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post #9249 of 9283 Old 05-19-2020, 05:37 PM
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Hi there.
I’ve been trying to get my Madvr 112b config right. The colors look great and all, but it seems very dark.

I’m using the pixel shader option. I really like it, but to me it shadows seem very dark, even at 20 nits.

I tried shadow recovery, but still very dark. Bright scenes look great.

Any advice, or settings I should try?

I tried v113, but I need smooth motion, which isn’t working in this version.
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post #9250 of 9283 Old 05-19-2020, 06:03 PM
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Everyone.

If you need tech support, this is NOT the thread for it.

We discuss the development of MadVR tone mapping here, we test scenes and settings specifically for issues with the TONE MAPPING.

Please take your tech support questions elsewhere.

This thread assumes you know how to setup MadVR. If your 'shadows' are too dark even nits 20 nits, you have something seriously wrong with your setup and you should ask in the relevant thread.

Defer to the links posted by CLAW above for where to ask tech support questions.
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post #9251 of 9283 Old 05-21-2020, 02:33 AM
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Does it make any sense to use more than one HDR profile in madvr for example for movies with very extreme different HDR video peaks?
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post #9252 of 9283 Old 05-21-2020, 03:40 AM
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Originally Posted by perioms View Post
Does it make any sense to use more than one HDR profile in madvr for example for movies with very extreme different HDR video peaks?
Ask this in another topic.
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post #9253 of 9283 Old 05-21-2020, 04:26 AM
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Originally Posted by Reezepees View Post
Ask this in another topic.
Maybe my question is a little misleading. But I don't think it's off topic. We are talking about improving HDR to SDR mapping.
In this context, it could be advantageous to use film-based HDR-SDR mapping profiles that take into account, for example, the different basic brightness levels, such as in the movie "The Meg".
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post #9254 of 9283 Old 05-21-2020, 06:18 AM
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Quote:
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Reezepees View Post
Ask this in another topic.
Maybe my question is a little misleading. But I don't think it's off topic. We are talking about improving HDR to SDR mapping.
In this context, it could be advantageous to use film-based HDR-SDR mapping profiles that take into account, for example, the different basic brightness levels, such as in the movie "The Meg".
If you know how madVR works you already have your answer...

And also known, it has nothing to do with this topic. I am sorry if my answer is a little harsh but there are so much questions and other pulotion in this topic, its sometimes hard to read "between the lines" and see what really matters in this topic.
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post #9255 of 9283 Old 05-21-2020, 08:56 AM
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I hope everyone is well and that we can resume testing "soon", it has been a long time now...

In the meantime, I watched a lot of movies with 112b and I have found a bad tone mapping jump with the movie Marrowbone.

Here is the sample: https://www.mediafire.com/file/3m3du7ly7254cm9/tonemap_jump.mkv/file

It happens from frame 232 to 233 of this sample, very noticeable on the forehead of the actor:


Marrowbone - Frames 232-233

Tone map goes from 251 to 306 nits in 1 frame.

On a whole different subject, shadow boost is becoming more and more important to me and I am not far from switching to "insane".

A little comparison while waiting for the next build: https://slow.pics/c/aDNqFxs2
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post #9256 of 9283 Old 05-21-2020, 12:53 PM
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Is HSTM supposed to be unticked/disabled in your settings?
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post #9257 of 9283 Old 05-22-2020, 03:41 AM
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[QUOTE=Neo-XP;59684184]
In the meantime, I watched a lot of movies with 112b and I have found a bad tone mapping jump with the movie Marrowbone.
...
It happens from frame 232 to 233 of this sample, very noticeable on the forehead of the actor
....

Tone map goes from 251 to 306 nits in 1 frame.
....
On a whole different subject, shadow boost is becoming more and more important to me and I am not far from switching to "insane"./QUOTE]


I had a look at this and I did not notice an obvious brightness jump during playback with my setttings. When I looked at the info data it says in my case that frame 232 measues 239 nits and is then tonemapped to 239 nits. Frame 233 is 409 nits and tonemapped to 257 nits. So the jump is in my case from 239 nits to 257 nits which I think is quite moderate and probably the reason that this scene seems not to be a problem in my case.

I had been using shadow boost for while but I stopped to use it. Obviously it helps to get the details near black but in my case I had always found that shadow boost costs all in all some contrast. The effect in my case was IMO going too far into the the midtones. I modified the gamma of my Sony VW760 at the very low end only in order to improve shadow details. First by following BT1886 up to about 10% of the greyscale I could improve shadow details. But this was too much as well. At about 3 IRE my gamma is at 2.05 and at about 4.5 IRE it is 2.10. The rest is all 2.2. This way I think I can avoid loosing contrast and still have the shadow details that I want. Last but not least I keep my dynamic target nit value the same as my real nit value. IMO this way there is more contrast / pop and HDR effect by doing so. This also worked with my Nero 3 plus from Sim2 that has only half the brightness of the Sony: here I measure 75 real nits and set the DT at 75 as well. Only by this it gave me a nice contrast. Beeing a DLP details near black are fine and not a problem (the black floor is of course still poor and there is no way to change that).
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post #9258 of 9283 Old 05-22-2020, 04:32 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DocCharky View Post
Is HSTM supposed to be unticked/disabled in your settings?
Yes, absolutely. I got the right balance for me by increasing DT and shadow boost.

Now using the settings in attachment after some more tests.

Quote:
Originally Posted by *Mori* View Post
I had a look at this and I did not notice an obvious brightness jump during playback with my setttings. When I looked at the info data it says in my case that frame 232 measues 239 nits and is then tonemapped to 239 nits. Frame 233 is 409 nits and tonemapped to 257 nits. So the jump is in my case from 239 nits to 257 nits which I think is quite moderate and probably the reason that this scene seems not to be a problem in my case.
It is actually worse than what I posted before, I can see it during normal playback without any difficulty.

When going frame by frame after the first cut:

- frame 232 measures 251 nits and is tonemapped to 267 nits
- frame 233 measures 404 nits and is tonemapped to 360 nits


Marrowbone - Frames 232-233

I can reproduce it every time with those same values.
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post #9259 of 9283 Old 05-22-2020, 04:54 AM
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In the pictures the difference between the 2 frames is very obvious. From 267 nits to 360 nits is equivalent to an increase of about 35%. In my case it is about 7.5% which is far less obvious and like I said not really a problem.
The question of course is how often cases like this do occur ...

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post #9260 of 9283 Old 05-22-2020, 03:44 PM
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Quote:
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The question of course is how often cases like this do occur ...
Not very often fortunately

However, I did report similar issues with the tone mapping algo and fade ins more than one year ago: https://www.avsforum.com/forum/24-di...l#post58513588

And another fade in fail here: https://www.avsforum.com/forum/24-di...l#post58517502

I can now add this latest find to the list: https://www.avsforum.com/forum/24-di...l#post59684184

I guess madshi would want to try to fix those small issues before the release of the Envy. Being able to look a few frames ahead would also help to perfect it
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post #9261 of 9283 Old 05-23-2020, 10:00 AM
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Yes, absolutely. I got the right balance for me by increasing DT and shadow boost.
So in the end, all these months playing with curves... for nothing ?
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post #9262 of 9283 Old 05-23-2020, 12:13 PM
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So in the end, all these months playing with curves... for nothing ?
Of course not, I am sure this option will be useful to a lot of users, and it was fun to test
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So in the end, all these months playing with curves... for nothing ?
Interesting.... @Javs actually came to that conclusion in a matter of hours ..
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post #9264 of 9283 Old 05-23-2020, 02:40 PM
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Another good shadow boost comparison IMO, from Robin Hood: https://slow.pics/c/iQHELgEy

Full settings in attachment.
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post #9265 of 9283 Old 05-23-2020, 05:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Neo-XP View Post
Another good shadow boost comparison IMO, from Robin Hood: https://slow.pics/c/iQHELgEy

Full settings in attachment.
I would say the UHD of that film is probably just overall bad.

The Bluray is not only far brighter there, is actually much sharper too than the UHD.

Bluray

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post #9266 of 9283 Old 05-23-2020, 05:23 PM
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WOW! In just a few months, Neo switched back to v112 and is not using HTSM anymore and I'm pretty sure that Javs is using some different settings and older version too. What's the world coming to? And here I was just concerned about a Pandemic. Maybe the sky is falling....

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Originally Posted by stevenjw View Post
WOW! In just a few months, Neo switched back to v112 and is not using HTSM anymore and I'm pretty sure that Javs is using some different settings and older version too. What's the world coming to? And here I was just concerned about a Pandemic. Maybe the sky is falling....
No, I am using 113, just with Compromise ON.

I am hoping that Madshi will bring back the Hue 100% correction ONLY from version 10 and 'separate' it from the other bells and whistles he has added since as it only costs 2ms of rendering for hue perfect gamut mapping in version 10 vs Comp On compared to the over 20ms of rendering from today for almost the same thing! This is HUGE difference in rendering power required.
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post #9268 of 9283 Old 05-23-2020, 11:01 PM
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AFAIK he claims that DTM introduced a hue shift (which is still disputed...) not that HSTM is useless.

Are you a fan or something ?
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post #9269 of 9283 Old 05-23-2020, 11:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by woofer View Post
Interesting.... @Javs actually came to that conclusion in a matter of hours ..
AFAIK he claims that newer madvr builds introduced a hue shift (which is still disputed...) not that HSTM itself is useless.

Are you a fan or something ?
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post #9270 of 9283 Old Yesterday, 02:22 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DocCharky View Post
AFAIK he claims that newer madvr builds introduced a hue shift (which is still disputed...) not that HSTM itself is useless.

Are you a fan or something ?
So far nobody has provided evidence to the contrary, so it's rather undisputed I think. And it's not a hue shift it's an over saturation. And I traced the cause back to 'saturation correction' in build 10.

And no, I don't like hstm at all I don't think it's necessary and personally I think it's detrimental, but that doesn't mean others don't have the right to enjoy it.

Thanks.

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