JVC DLA-X70R (second hand) or SONY HW45ES (new) - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #1 of 21 Old 02-24-2018, 04:59 AM - Thread Starter
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Question JVC DLA-X70R (second hand) or SONY HW45ES (new)

Hi all,

Looking for opinions on these two projectors. The JVC is a bit old now but was expensive in its time. I'm sure things have moved on but after your thoughts! I mainly watch 2D streamed content - not much 3D. This would be Netflix etc. films. The JVC would probably need a new lamp but they don't seem very expensive, it's on 1700 hours.

Thanks! Tim

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post #2 of 21 Old 02-25-2018, 01:57 AM - Thread Starter
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No thoughts?

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post #3 of 21 Old 02-25-2018, 03:09 AM
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I had a sony HW40ES and then a X30R so somewhat similar.

I have a pretty good room with dark light absorbing surfaces so the x30, with it's much higher native contrast, was preferable for me (2D only) and my setup.
The HW40ES was a decent projector but just didn't have a good enough black level for my liking.

So if you have a decent room then the x70 might be the better choice but if you have a room with light coloured walls and/or some ambient light, then the 45ES will be better.

At 1700 hrs, you will most likely need a new lamp. A good new lamp will be a little expensive. The cheap ones your are probably referring to are just chinese lamps that are not very bright.
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post #4 of 21 Old 02-26-2018, 06:25 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by simacu View Post
At 1700 hrs, you will most likely need a new lamp. A good new lamp will be a little expensive. The cheap ones your are probably referring to are just chinese lamps that are not very bright.
A good new lamp is not expensive for this projector. They are $73... This is for an official Philips lamp that functions exactly like the original.
Many of us have bought this one with no issues. There are a lot of cheap / fake / imitation lamps out there, but this specific projector is easy to get good lamps cheap. That said, all JVC lamps from this year and prior have design issues (ballast / cooling / lamp itself). So the lamps, whether official or not, are not very reliable on this projector.

White walls or not, the JVC will generally have a much better image. It has better optics and is sharper, and the black levels are several magnitudes darker. You don't need a bat cave to notice the difference in contrast with a JVC. I have had a JVC in all different rooms, a bat cave makes dark scenes look slightly better (somewhat depending how close your walls are to the screen)...

BUT... Bright scenes are more affected by white walls than dark scenes, so many people in this forum have it backwards.

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Last edited by coderguy; 02-26-2018 at 06:28 AM.
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post #5 of 21 Old 02-27-2018, 12:14 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by coderguy View Post
A good new lamp is not expensive for this projector. They are $73... This is for an official Philips lamp that functions exactly like the original.
Many of us have bought this one with no issues. There are a lot of cheap / fake / imitation lamps out there, but this specific projector is easy to get good lamps cheap. That said, all JVC lamps from this year and prior have design issues (ballast / cooling / lamp itself). So the lamps, whether official or not, are not very reliable on this projector.

White walls or not, the JVC will generally have a much better image. It has better optics and is sharper, and the black levels are several magnitudes darker. You don't need a bat cave to notice the difference in contrast with a JVC. I have had a JVC in all different rooms, a bat cave makes dark scenes look slightly better (somewhat depending how close your walls are to the screen)...

BUT... Bright scenes are more affected by white walls than dark scenes, so many people in this forum have it backwards.

This is really helpful, sounds like JVC is a better unit. Are the lamps easy to fit yourself? On the issues with the lamps will it be obvious from first fitting that these is a fault or do these go over time? Sorry for all the questions!

Cheers, Tim

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post #6 of 21 Old 02-27-2018, 01:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tim_Field View Post
This is really helpful, sounds like JVC is a better unit. Are the lamps easy to fit yourself? On the issues with the lamps will it be obvious from first fitting that these is a fault or do these go over time? Sorry for all the questions!

Cheers, Tim
Yes and no for easy, pretty easy. There are just 2 wires, and you have to fiddle with the housing to get it lose.
There are 4 pieces of thin aluminium that hold the lamp in place.

Whether or not the lamp is faulty is not obvious, but there are two key signs that will sometimes happen...

1) After about 800 hours or so you will see a sudden MASSIVE drop in brightness
2) The projector may give a lamp light warning, even though the lamp still works if you turn the PJ on and off

My recommendation is not to run the lamp over 2000 hours to be safe, since they are so cheap to replace.
Also, just because I had some lamps explode, does not mean you will. I have't seen all that many people have exploding lamps on the RS-45.

To Change the Lamp
The wires are screwed on, but I find it is easier to just screw one wire, and solder the other. You may find it easier to just screw both wires on.
There is an easy soldering point you can use that already has a bowled shape of solder on it, I don't re-use it, I simply apply my own solder to attach to the existing solder. That way I don't have to get everything quite as hot.

It generally takes me 45 - 60 minutes to change the lamp, and that includes soldering time.
If you mess up the housing, it's not that big of a deal, you can buy the housing as well.

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post #7 of 21 Old 04-24-2019, 06:05 AM
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coderguy - I bought a used X70R with 1600 hours and with spare lamp. I also bought X35R with about 1600 hours on the lamp as well. I setup the X70R for a quick look. I selected user picture mode, color profile of standard, custom gamma setting of 2.2 and color temperature of 6500k, with the rest at default. With this settings one would assume, the X70R should have very good picture quality. But mine has awful picture. Color is inaccurate. No matter what I did, I could not get rid of a very pronounced blue tint on the picture, and dark scenes look crashed, details missing. All sources have undersaturated red. I tried three different sources, a Samsung Blu-Ray player, Apple TV and Nvidia Shied TV. I reset all picture settings to factory but the issue persists. Could this also be a aging bulb issues? I have a spare I could swap but didn't want to do that in case I have to return the PJ back to the seller. Was there ever a firmware released to address any issue with the X70R?

On the other hand, the X35R throws a beautiful picture. Blacks are miles better than my Optoma HD8200 or others PJ I have used in the past (Panasonic AE4000 and Marantz VP15s1). Paired with Da-Lite HP 2.8 screen, it is like looking at giant LCD TV. Some screen shot from X35 below. This screen shots are taken on a 16 x 9 screen playing a 2.35 aspect ratio images. I hardly notice the black bars on top and bottom. Since the X35R is a lower end projector from JVC line, albeit a newer lamp design than the X70R, I am wondering if the X70R will be much better even though I am happy with the X35R for now until, a 4K laser PJ comes down to earth in pricing.

Many thanks to Art @ projectorreviews. I bought the JVC based on his reviews of JVC projectors.

Last edited by Alex solomon; 04-28-2019 at 06:14 PM.
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post #8 of 21 Old 04-24-2019, 09:10 AM
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Not sure about where pricing sits with anyone, but (not my listing) this seems like it may be worth keeping an eye on for someone interested in getting their foot wet...
https://www.ebay.com/itm/JVC-DLA-RS4...A&LH_Auction=1

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post #9 of 21 Old 04-24-2019, 09:33 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alex solomon View Post
coderguy - I bought a used X70R with 1600 hours and with spare lamp. I also bought X35R with about 1600 hours on the lamp as well. I setup the X70R for a quick look. I selected user picture mode, color profile of standard, custom gamma setting of 2.2 and color temperature of 6500k, with the rest at default. With this settings one would assume, the X70R should have very good picture quality. But mine has awful picture. Color is inaccurate. No matter what I did, I could not get rid of a very pronounced blue tint on the picture, and dark scenes look crashed, details missing. All sources have undersaturated red. I tried three different sources, a Samsung Blu-Ray player, Apple TV and Nvidia Shied TV. I reset all picture settings to factory but the issue persists. Could this also be a aging bulb issues? I have a spare I could swap but didn't want to do that in case I have to return the PJ back to the seller. Was there ever a firmware released to address any issue with the X70R?

On the other hand, the X35R throws a beautiful picture. Blacks are miles better than my Optoma HD8200 or others PJ I have used in the past (Panasonic AE4000 and Marantz VP15s1). Paired with Da-Lite HP 2.8 screen, it is like looking at giant LCD TV. Some screen shot from X35 below. This screen shots are taken on a 16 x 9 screen playing a 2.35 aspect ratio images. I hardly notice the black bars on top and bottom. Since the X35R is a lower end projector from JVC line, albeit a newer lamp design than the X70R, I am wondering if the X70R will be much better even though I am happy with the X35R for now until, a 4K laser PJ comes down to earth in pricing.

Many thanks to Art @ projectorreviews. I bought the JVC based on his reviews of JVC projectors.
Well, 1600 hours on a lamp is a lot, but you shouldn't have a blue tint that is all that bad.
Try Animation or Natural mode and set the color temp to 5500 or 6000, then if necessary go into the custom color controls and turn the blue down (both the gain and offset if needed).
You access the color controls by selecting the color box and clicking on it, then you will see the manual correction ability. You can also modify individual gamma points to adjust color at individual IRE levels. If you have some test patterns (i.e. white windows at different IRE's), that can be helpful to tune it even by eye. You don't ever want to RAISE the offset because you will lose contrast, but it is ok to reduce it. For instance, a hacked fix could just be to increase red, but don't do that as it will mess up the picture, you need to lower blue and green instead.

Maybe try Blue -40 to -60, and you may need to turn green down some like to -20 to -40.

Does it still look blue?

I think animation mode has less blue.

The RS-45's main color issue was having too much blue, so I don't think your projector is defective, but it's hard to say without seeing it in person.
Generally speaking, the issue was too much Green + Blue and not enough Red, which caused yellow skin tones.
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Last edited by coderguy; 04-24-2019 at 10:02 AM.
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post #10 of 21 Old 04-24-2019, 09:55 AM
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Dark scenes crushing shadow detail is normal for this projector, you have to create a custom gamma curve.
If you are doing this without a meter, I would base the curve on Gamma D and then go into the individual gamma points in the lower IRE's 5-40, and bump those up to raise the gamma.

For custom gamma (accessed from the Advanced Menu), try this...

Correction Value: D

Change White Point Gamma only
Input 5% - Output 100
Input 10% - Output 150
Input 15% - Output 200
Input 20% - Output 250
Input 30% - Output 350
Input 40% - Output 450

If that is too extreme (too bright in the lower IRE), try correction value: Gamma 2.0 with Input 5% - 65, Input 10% - 135, Input 15% - 180, Input 20% - 240, Input 30% - 340

The JVC has 3 slots for custom gamma, so you can save it into one of those 3 slots.
You will lose some contrast in the image (which is normal because it was crushing blacks before), but it should mostly fix the shadow detail.
You can play around with those 2 settings and make adjustments yourself if needed to each white point gamma.

This is also how you can adjust the grayscale of individual IRE Windows, but to do that you have to move the RGB gamma controls instead of just the white point.
The white point basically moves all 3 the same amount (hence affects only gamma), the other controls -RGB- affect the color in the grayscale.

Hence, in the color editor (not gamma) and in layman speak that means Offset and Gain change the grayscale 'across the board' instead of at individual IRE (or "brightness points") for lack of a better word. Whereas, in the Gamma editor, the RGB controls change grayscale gamma at a specific IRE level.
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Last edited by coderguy; 04-24-2019 at 10:15 AM.
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post #11 of 21 Old 04-24-2019, 10:17 AM
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You can also change the brightness value, contrast should be around 0 and brightness could be -6 to -4.
-6 will crush a bit more than -4 (but -4 will lose some contrast).
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post #12 of 21 Old 04-24-2019, 02:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by coderguy View Post
The RS-45's main color issue was having too much blue, so I don't think your projector is defective, but it's hard to say without seeing it in person.
Generally speaking, the issue was too much Green + Blue and not enough Red, which caused yellow skin tones.
Yup, that is what I am experiencing. Way too much blue and under saturated reds. And yes, I see yellow skin tones as well.
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post #13 of 21 Old 04-24-2019, 02:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by coderguy View Post
Dark scenes crushing shadow detail is normal for this projector, you have to create a custom gamma curve.
If you are doing this without a meter, I would base the curve on Gamma D and then go into the individual gamma points in the lower IRE's 5-40, and bump those up to raise the gamma.

For custom gamma (accessed from the Advanced Menu), try this...

Correction Value: D

Change White Point Gamma only
Input 5% - Output 100
Input 10% - Output 150
Input 15% - Output 200
Input 20% - Output 250
Input 30% - Output 350
Input 40% - Output 450

If that is too extreme (too bright in the lower IRE), try correction value: Gamma 2.0 with Input 5% - 65, Input 10% - 135, Input 15% - 180, Input 20% - 240, Input 30% - 340

The JVC has 3 slots for custom gamma, so you can save it into one of those 3 slots.
You will lose some contrast in the image (which is normal because it was crushing blacks before), but it should mostly fix the shadow detail.
You can play around with those 2 settings and make adjustments yourself if needed to each white point gamma.

This is also how you can adjust the grayscale of individual IRE Windows, but to do that you have to move the RGB gamma controls instead of just the white point.
The white point basically moves all 3 the same amount (hence affects only gamma), the other controls -RGB- affect the color in the grayscale.

Hence, in the color editor (not gamma) and in layman speak that means Offset and Gain change the grayscale 'across the board' instead of at individual IRE (or "brightness points") for lack of a better word. Whereas, in the Gamma editor, the RGB controls change grayscale gamma at a specific IRE level.

Many thanks coderguy! I will play around with what you suggested, and if I see some improvements, I will put the new bulb.
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post #14 of 21 Old 04-24-2019, 03:24 PM
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If you want to experiment with a Torch Mode, hence maintain brightness and fix the skin tones as well (not fully possible, but you can get 70% of the way)...

I've found that Animation Mode using Custom Color as below (save into Custom User color slot):

(edited)
Correction Value: High Bright

Red Gain = 0
Green Gain = -10
Blue Gain = -0

Red Offset = 0
Green Offset = -5
Blue Offset = 0

Note that if you remove too much blue in the image, skin tones can also start looking too yellow since yellow comes from too much red and green.
The yellow look though is generally from too much green and an imbalance of blue which causes the red imbalance.

I would generally leave Red alone and mess with blue and green to try to fix it, since almost all modes lack RED.
Normally we would add more red, but as you know cannot do it since it would mess up the contrast.

I use this as my lamp ages to maximize brightness so I can keep it bright enough after 600 hours or so.
Generally I'm forced to use this from 600+ hours onward.
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Last edited by coderguy; 04-24-2019 at 03:45 PM.
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post #15 of 21 Old 04-25-2019, 12:53 PM
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I played around with coderguy's recommended settings but could not get an acceptable picture. I swapped out the old lamp for a new one, I see no difference in brightness between the old lamp with 1600 hrs on it and the new one out of the box with 0 hours, none at all. How cold that be? I am not sure what to make of this. I gave up, I am sending this one back to the seller, too many issues.

coderguy, thanks for your input!
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alex solomon View Post
I played around with coderguy's recommended settings but could not get an acceptable picture. I swapped out the old lamp for a new one, I see no difference in brightness between the old lamp with 1600 hrs on it and the new one out of the box with 0 hours, none at all. How cold that be? I am not sure what to make of this. I gave up, I am sending this one back to the seller, too many issues.

coderguy, thanks for your input!
Possibly he put a new lamp in, but forgot to reset the lamp counter.
So your lamp never really had 1600 hours. Either that, or you got a bad 'new' bulb.

That's odd you couldn't get an acceptable picture...
It's definitely not an easy projector to adjust the image, that's for sure.

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post #17 of 21 Old 04-25-2019, 01:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by coderguy View Post
Possibly he put a new lamp in, but forgot to reset the lamp counter.
So your lamp never really had 1600 hours. Either that, or you got a bad 'new' bulb.

That's odd you couldn't get an acceptable picture...
It's definitely not an easy projector to adjust the image, that's for sure.
I have had at lease three projectors over the last 10 years, four if you count the X35 I have now, and all have very good PQ at their default setting. It may not be quite accurate without professional calibration, but all were quite enjoyable after basic setting using a calibration disc, at least good enough for me.

The previous owner of the X70R said the projector is on it's original lamp and included not one but two new lamps with the sale. The projector was used in a business setting so the owner never really cared for color accuracy, shadow detail etc...

I will keep fiddling with the X35 until I get excellent picture, this projector is capable of given it price point.
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post #18 of 21 Old 04-25-2019, 01:25 PM
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Originally Posted by Alex solomon View Post
I have had at lease three projectors over the last 10 years, four if you count the X35 I have now, and all have very good PQ at their default setting. It may not be quite accurate without professional calibration, but all were quite enjoyable after basic setting using a calibration disc, at least good enough for me.

The previous owner of the X70R said the projector is on it's original lamp and included not one but two new lamps with the sale. The projector was used in a business setting so the owner never really cared for color accuracy, shadow detail etc...
Could be the panels have an issue causing the image to be way too blue.
I get ok color out of my JVC, not as good as some other projectors, but passable.

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Much depends on the lamps. Need to take the original. Then there will be no shades of blue and others. Even 3D without halos, ghostinga. Himself surprised endlessly.
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post #20 of 21 Old 04-26-2019, 04:17 AM
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For X70 it is necessary to do the color correction procedure. Still need to check the firmware. Last 28.056
Firmware and color correction here- http://support.jvc.com/consumer/custrel/index.jsp
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post #21 of 21 Old 04-26-2019, 06:42 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Slonopot View Post
For X70 it is necessary to do the color correction procedure. Still need to check the firmware. Last 28.056
Firmware and color correction here- http://support.jvc.com/consumer/custrel/index.jsp
I did check a that the other day but since my serial number was not in the affected range specified and the incorrect colors are in all modes, I didn't see the need to update the firmware. Since I may have to return the PJ back to the seller, I didn't want to mess with that too much.
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