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post #541 of 652 Old 08-10-2019, 06:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DavidHir View Post
But it's not just the 1528x2, but the 1080p models as well that regressed.
That's because most 1080p DLPs use 0.66" DMDs and most 4k DLPs with 1080p panel use 0.47" DMDs.

It's all about the mirror density. More tightly packed mirrors means less contrast.

The 0.95" 1080p DMD closest equivalent in 4k is the 1.38" chip.
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post #542 of 652 Old 08-10-2019, 07:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ruined View Post
That's because most 1080p DLPs use 0.66" DMDs and most 4k DLPs with 1080p panel use 0.47" DMDs.

It's all about the mirror density. More tightly packed mirrors means less contrast.

The 0.95" 1080p DMD closest equivalent in 4k is the 1.38" chip.
Well, I had a Mits HC3800 which had a 0.65" DMD and I remember people on AVS measuring around 3000:1 native. And that PJ had no Iris (manual or dynamic) and it was a lowly Darkchip2 (not even a DC3).

I couldn't find any website review today that they measured native contrast on the HC3800 (back then many just didn't measure or publish native #'s---or the reviews are just gone or buried).

But I did find this mention on AVS from myself a while back>

"cine4home said (HC3800 review), the HC3800 has a native contrast (@D65) of about 2400:1 depending on 'Zoom'"

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post #543 of 652 Old 08-12-2019, 01:11 AM
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The one thing that's puzzling me is this:


Ever since the Full HD DarkChip3 (or DarkChip4) contrast performance in DLP projectors has decreased.


But the 0.47" DMD used nowadays for 4K XPR resolutions is just 'another' Full HD (1.920 x 1,080) DMD.


If a front projector manufacturer were interested in better contrast performance, couldn't they just use the 0.65" DarkChip3 DMD instead or is the 0.47" DMD part of a Texas Instruments XPR light engine that won't allow modifications?

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post #544 of 652 Old 08-12-2019, 06:06 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Frank714 View Post
The one thing that's puzzling me is this:


Ever since the Full HD DarkChip3 (or DarkChip4) contrast performance in DLP projectors has decreased.


But the 0.47" DMD used nowadays for 4K XPR resolutions is just 'another' Full HD (1.920 x 1,080) DMD.


If a front projector manufacturer were interested in better contrast performance, couldn't they just use the 0.65" DarkChip3 DMD instead or is the 0.47" DMD part of a Texas Instruments XPR light engine that won't allow modifications?
If a DLP projector manufacturer wanted to take that design and modify it with an E-shift mechanism, they could. Problem is, it looks like most of these manufacturers are not doing anything to the design. They are just purchasing the stock light engine from TI.
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post #545 of 652 Old 08-12-2019, 06:10 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Frank714 View Post
The one thing that's puzzling me is this:


Ever since the Full HD DarkChip3 (or DarkChip4) contrast performance in DLP projectors has decreased.


But the 0.47" DMD used nowadays for 4K XPR resolutions is just 'another' Full HD (1.920 x 1,080) DMD.


If a front projector manufacturer were interested in better contrast performance, couldn't they just use the 0.65" DarkChip3 DMD instead or is the 0.47" DMD part of a Texas Instruments XPR light engine that won't allow modifications?
TI only allows manufacturers to use packages they personally approve. A manuf is not permitted to come up a custom DMD combo without TI approval.

The current 4k choices TI offers:
* 1.38" XPR 8k (4-way) / Native 4k (only DPI 4 now)
* 1.38" Native 4k
* 0.98" Native 4k (only barco 4 now)
* 0.95" XPR 4k (2-way) (only barco)
* 0.66" XPR 4k (2-way)
* 0.47" XPR 4k (4-way) / Native 1080p

My guess for why it was segmented this way-
While a 0.66 1080p xpr would have better contrast (note: not tons better) than the current 0.66 1528p xpr, it would also have much lower resolution. Since the resolution would be much lower, it may just be smarter at that price point to optimize around a plain 1080p display path, since 4k requires a higher quality lens more expensive processing, etc. Most people buying a projector at the 66xpr price point want a true 4k resolution experience and the 47xpr doesn't quite deliver that; while 66xpr isn't native 4k, it's very close in performance to and sometimes better than 3chip native 4k solutions with real world content.

All manufacturers under 20k have only used xpr66/47 due to cost and marketing reasons, though I can see the native 4k .98 being an option they could justify a higher price to the consumer for and I would not be surprised to see a model under 20k with the .98 native 4k DMD in a couple years.

In 2yr or so I expect following price brackets:
* 10k-25k+ - 0.98" Native 4k
* 3k-10k - 0.66" XPR 4k (2-way)
* 1k-3k - 0.47" XPR 4k (4-way)

A lot of people reminiscing about contrast on old DLP projectors need to remember how dim they were. It's easier to achieve better contrast on DLP with less brightness. Due to the importance of brightness for HDR, a dim projector isn't a viable option anymore. In fact, projectors these days need to be what was referred to as a "light cannon" back in the day to be truly effective with HDR. 1500-2000 calibrated lumens in p3 color is a good place to be around for a medium sized screen, and older high contrast projectors in this price bracket were often under 750 lumens calibrated which is no longer acceptable

Last edited by Ruined; 08-12-2019 at 06:41 AM.
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post #546 of 652 Old 08-12-2019, 06:46 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ruined View Post
TI only allows manufacturers to use packages they personally approve. A manuf is not permitted to come up a custom DMD combo without TI approval.

The current 4k choices TI offers:
* 1.38" XPR 8k (4-way) / Native 4k (only DPI 4 now)
* 1.38" Native 4k
* 0.98" Native 4k (only barco 4 now)
* 0.95" XPR 4k (2-way) (only barco)
* 0.66" XPR 4k (2-way)
* 0.47" XPR 4k (4-way) / Native 1080p

My guess for why it was segmented this way-
While a 0.66 1080p xpr would have better contrast (note: not tons better) than the current 0.66 1528p xpr, it would also have much lower resolution. Since the resolution would be much lower, it may just be smarter at that price point to optimize around a plain 1080p display path, since 4k requires a higher quality lens more expensive processing, etc. Most people buying a projector at the 66xpr price point want a true 4k resolution experience and the 47xpr doesn't quite deliver that; while 66xpr isn't native 4k, it's very close in performance to and sometimes better than 3chip native 4k solutions with real world content.

All manufacturers under 20k have only used xpr66/47 due to cost and marketing reasons, though I can see the native 4k .98 being an option they could justify a higher price to the consumer for and I would not be surprised to see a model under 20k with the .98 native 4k DMD in a couple years.

In 2yr or so I expect following price brackets:
* 10k-25k+ - 0.98" Native 4k
* 3k-10k - 0.66" XPR 4k (2-way)
* 1k-3k - 0.47" XPR 4k (4-way)

A lot of people reminiscing about contrast on old DLP projectors need to remember how dim they were. It's easier to achieve better contrast on DLP with less brightness. Due to the importance of brightness for HDR, a dim projector isn't a viable option anymore. In fact, projectors these days need to be what was referred to as a "light cannon" back in the day to be truly effective with HDR. 1500-2000 calibrated lumens in p3 color is a good place to be around for a medium sized screen, and older high contrast projectors in this price bracket were often under 750 lumens calibrated which is no longer acceptable
Or a manual iris could be implemented on a high lumen projector and you could get native contrat up that way. Taking a 5,000 lumen projector and turning down the laser to get to 2,000 lumens means the native contrast stays the same or even drops a little bit. But take that 5,000 lumen projector and reduce the light output with a manual iris and the native increases. Adding a manual iris would not add that much cost either.
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post #547 of 652 Old 08-12-2019, 08:00 AM
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If I understand well, a dlp chip with a native contrast of let's say 2000:1 to 1000:1 would look just as fine as anything else if the solid slate light engine would dim appropriatly for any frame given the ADL ? That would mean there's still a look of potential in this technology. Just thinking out loud (I haven't really took my time to think about it) what if you make a laser source with a rectangular shape and then put a rectangular filter in front of it so that 1/3 is red, 1/3 is blue 1/3 is green and only light up the appropriate third of the laser engine at the right level. You could get no RBE, perfect color space, no convergence issues and a native contrast of close to 2000:1 for each frame. In that case, it's all about implementing that tech better.
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post #548 of 652 Old 08-12-2019, 10:39 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by entropy02 View Post
If I understand well, a dlp chip with a native contrast of let's say 2000:1 to 1000:1 would look just as fine as anything else if the solid slate light engine would dim appropriatly for any frame given the ADL ? That would mean there's still a look of potential in this technology. Just thinking out loud (I haven't really took my time to think about it) what if you make a laser source with a rectangular shape and then put a rectangular filter in front of it so that 1/3 is red, 1/3 is blue 1/3 is green and only light up the appropriate third of the laser engine at the right level. You could get no RBE, perfect color space, no convergence issues and a native contrast of close to 2000:1 for each frame. In that case, it's all about implementing that tech better.
No, just being able to turn off the light source does not solve all problems. If the black floor is high, due to the 1,000;1 or even 2,000;1, then there is too big of a transition going from black floor to lights off and from lights off to black floor. In other words, it is not a smooth transition. Right now the native on these DLP's is 1,000:1. 2,000:1 would be a big improvement.
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post #549 of 652 Old 08-13-2019, 10:57 AM
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Hmmm...pretty sure I'm seeing much better than 1k or 2k:1 contrast with my Benq 9060 w/ smart eco on.
Went back and checked out Chris Eberle's ls review:
"Speaking of light, BenQ has managed to throw off the stigma of dim LED projectors with Philips latest ColorSpark LED. There is more than enough output for the HT9060 to anchor large theaters. In my modest space, I recorded over 200 nits at 10 feet from the screen, 92” image size, for both SDR and HDR signals. For old-schoolers, that’s over 60 foot-Lamberts. When using the SmartEco lamp mode, which imitates the action of an auto-iris, contrast was around 4500:1"

Would be great if Benq could build on where they are now, fine tune Smart Eco a bit more (or add an actual iris) and double their numbers.

Still in the honeymoon phase w/ this projector ;-)
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post #550 of 652 Old 08-13-2019, 11:13 AM
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Originally Posted by DoctorCyclops View Post
Hmmm...pretty sure I'm seeing much better than 1k or 2k:1 contrast with my Benq 9060 w/ smart eco on.
Went back and checked out Chris Eberle's ls review:
"Speaking of light, BenQ has managed to throw off the stigma of dim LED projectors with Philips latest ColorSpark LED. There is more than enough output for the HT9060 to anchor large theaters. In my modest space, I recorded over 200 nits at 10 feet from the screen, 92” image size, for both SDR and HDR signals. For old-schoolers, that’s over 60 foot-Lamberts. When using the SmartEco lamp mode, which imitates the action of an auto-iris, contrast was around 4500:1"

Would be great if Benq could build on where they are now, fine tune Smart Eco a bit more (or add an actual iris) and double their numbers.

Still in the honeymoon phase w/ this projector ;-)
I said native contrast, not dynamic and it has been well established that none of these XPR DLP's are getting anywhere near 2,000:1 native. In fact a lot of them are not even hitting 1,000:1 native. Also Kris Deering reviewed that same projector and I do not mean the same model, Kris received the projector that Eberle reviewed. I will take kris's measurement every time. Kris measured 836:1 native and 3,770:1 dynamic.
https://www.soundandvision.com/conte...ojector-review
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post #551 of 652 Old 08-13-2019, 01:51 PM
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Got it. Thx.
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post #552 of 652 Old 08-13-2019, 02:04 PM
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I still own a few DLP projectors. It really bugs me that DLP, which has such potential, has gone backwards in the one spec where they were already weak. Especially when we already know pretty simple ways to improve the contrast (manual iris and or another chip). I assume the stranglehold that TI has on DLP has slowed down it's development.
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post #553 of 652 Old 08-13-2019, 02:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Garrett View Post
I said native contrast, not dynamic and it has been well established that none of these XPR DLP's are getting anywhere near 2,000:1 native. In fact a lot of them are not even hitting 1,000:1 native. Also Kris Deering reviewed that same projector and I do not mean the same model, Kris received the projector that Eberle reviewed. I will take kris's measurement every time. Kris measured 836:1 native and 3,770:1 dynamic.
https://www.soundandvision.com/conte...ojector-review
Yet owner reviews show higher than S&V's.

I've looked at multiple reviews of the HT8050/9050/9060 and S&V has the lowest measured on/off of ANY of these reviews.
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post #554 of 652 Old 08-13-2019, 02:48 PM
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Originally Posted by DunMunro View Post
Yet owner reviews show higher than S&V's.

I've looked at multiple reviews of the HT8050/9050/9060 and S&V has the lowest measured on/off of ANY of these reviews.
https://hometheaterhifi.com/reviews/...jector-review/

This review is almost a polar opposite of S&V. I'd like to see one of these in person to make up my mind.
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post #555 of 652 Old 08-13-2019, 03:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by entropy02 View Post
https://hometheaterhifi.com/reviews/...jector-review/

This review is almost a polar opposite of S&V. I'd like to see one of these in person to make up my mind.
This is an extensive comparative review:
https://www.tvspecialists.com/sony-v...t9060-part-ii/



52min accompanying 4K youtube video:

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post #556 of 652 Old 08-13-2019, 04:32 PM
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What is the possibility with super bright laser/phosphor globes on the horizon, TI would develop a dual modulation light engine design ala the Christie Eclipse, but with a single x2 chips for the home market. Super convergence and super sharp.

I'd love to see that!
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post #557 of 652 Old 08-13-2019, 04:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Garrett View Post
I still own a few DLP projectors. It really bugs me that DLP, which has such potential, has gone backwards in the one spec where they were already weak. Especially when we already know pretty simple ways to improve the contrast (manual iris and or another chip). I assume the stranglehold that TI has on DLP has slowed down it's development.
Isn't it due to something like 98% (pulled that # from thin air!) of the DLP PJ market being presentation/commercial (sports bars, etc.) applications? Where bright lumens is the name of the game? And blacks/contrast is kind moot in those reflective/ambient light type installs anyways?

Perhaps TI and DLP manufactures have made a calculated decision to not bother fighting the tiny HT market in what would probably be a lost cause for most---meaning, they're never gonna get anywhere near the native contrast of other chip designs (LCOS, etc.), and the development costs of minor contrast improvements probably won't move the needle that much in the HT PJ market share anyways. Even if a tiny minority of the HT PJ market might find the advantage in say a 6000:1 native DLP projector with a bright lamp and manual and dynamic Irises. Perhaps the physics of a DLP chip light engine design has an upper native contrast limit, and it was already hit.

??
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post #558 of 652 Old 08-13-2019, 05:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by entropy02 View Post
https://hometheaterhifi.com/reviews/...jector-review/

This review is almost a polar opposite of S&V. I'd like to see one of these in person to make up my mind.
You should see one in person. I'm not sure if it's because the light is so evenly spread out across the entire screen, or the HK effect, but it's an amazing image that is punchy, vivid and colorful. Easy on the eyes and lots of room for adjustment.
Clearly if deeper blacks are your thing (and your room can theoretically deliver what a JVC or Sony can do), you may want to opt for one of those.
But in the HDR era, w/ brightness being king & projectors that are finally bright enough to evenly light up a large screen, I'm extremely satisfied w/ my BenQ 9060.
Most of the time I'm still marveling at the incredible clarity of the single chip, superior lens and rapid flashing LEDs.
Have yet to see a single rainbow (which would have been a deal breaker for me).
It's got a very unique place in the market, not like bulb-based, color wheel bound, DLPs.
Definitely worth a gander.
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post #559 of 652 Old 08-13-2019, 05:48 PM
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Originally Posted by DunMunro View Post
Yet owner reviews show higher than S&V's.

I've looked at multiple reviews of the HT8050/9050/9060 and S&V has the lowest measured on/off of ANY of these reviews.
You mean the owners that are using cheap meters and questionable measurement setup?
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post #560 of 652 Old 08-13-2019, 06:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Garrett View Post
You mean the owners that are using cheap meters and questionable measurement setup?
I mean professional reviews which post their detailed results. Of all these reviews S&V has the lowest on/off contrast.

However, when an owner posts on/off values that match very closely with Eberle's numbers it seems significant, especially when these numbers fall in the middle range of all measured results.
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post #561 of 652 Old 08-13-2019, 06:45 PM
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Originally Posted by DunMunro View Post
I mean professional reviews which post their detailed results. Of all these reviews S&V has the lowest on/off contrast.

However, when an owner posts on/off values that match very closely with Eberle's numbers it seems significant, especially when these numbers fall in the middle range of all measured results.
My post was referring to: "Yet owner reviews show higher than S&V's."
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post #562 of 652 Old 08-13-2019, 09:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Garrett View Post
I still own a few DLP projectors. It really bugs me that DLP, which has such potential, has gone backwards in the one spec where they were already weak. Especially when we already know pretty simple ways to improve the contrast (manual iris and or another chip). I assume the stranglehold that TI has on DLP has slowed down it's development.
After the discussion of the ht9050, I'm sticking with my current DLP.
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post #563 of 652 Old 08-14-2019, 06:14 AM
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Originally Posted by blee0120 View Post
After the discussion of the ht9050, I'm sticking with my current DLP.
The BenQ HT9060 is the only 4k dlp under $20k I can 100% recommend to people. The others all have some major caveat.
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Originally Posted by Ruined View Post
The BenQ HT9060 is the only 4k dlp under $20k I can 100% recommend to people. The others all have some major caveat.
The HT9060 is the 4K DLP that I have been waiting for. The only issue is lack of powered lens controls and lens memory. For our set up, it's a deal breaker
Hoping that Benq will step up and fill in this "missing link" soon...
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post #565 of 652 Old 08-14-2019, 09:28 AM
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Originally Posted by DunMunro View Post
I mean professional reviews which post their detailed results. Of all these reviews S&V has the lowest on/off contrast.

However, when an owner posts on/off values that match very closely with Eberle's numbers it seems significant, especially when these numbers fall in the middle range of all measured results.
Secrets measured 1022.8:1 - that's not terribly different from the 836:1 in the Sound and Vision review. It's not great even at 1022.8:1.
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post #566 of 652 Old 08-14-2019, 10:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fleaman View Post
Perhaps TI and DLP manufactures have made a calculated decision to not bother fighting the tiny HT market in what would probably be a lost cause for most---meaning, they're never gonna get anywhere near the native contrast of other chip designs (LCOS, etc.),
Well, first off, DLP has the best contrast not Lcos. The title to this thread is a bit confusing. It should read lesser contrast but in the entry to mid-level DLP price range. The Christie Ultra is untouchable with contrast and black level galore, but its price tag, even for its smaller entry version, is the equivalent of a used exotic car.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DoctorCyclops View Post
You should see one in person.
You've got that right. It has an uncanny clean, uniform image. Its lens is reference grade. And even its contrast appears better than its numbers convey for some reason.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DunMunro View Post
I mean professional reviews which post their detailed results. Of all these reviews S&V has the lowest on/off contrast.

However, when an owner posts on/off values that match very closely with Eberle's numbers it seems significant, especially when these numbers fall in the middle range of all measured results.
It could be different calibration and zoom used by the different reviewers. Also, I recall when I first received mine, I thought the dynamic contrast was acceptable. When I moved the unit 20 feet from the screen, contrast became more than acceptable.
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post #567 of 652 Old 08-15-2019, 05:49 AM
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Originally Posted by Aztar35 View Post
Well, first off, DLP has the best contrast not Lcos. The title to this thread is a bit confusing. It should read lesser contrast but in the entry to mid-level DLP price range. The Christie Ultra is untouchable with contrast and black level galore, but its price tag, even for its smaller entry version, is the equivalent of a used exotic car.



You've got that right. It has an uncanny clean, uniform image. Its lens is reference grade. And even its contrast appears better than its numbers convey for some reason.



It could be different calibration and zoom used by the different reviewers. Also, I recall when I first received mine, I thought the dynamic contrast was acceptable. When I moved the unit 20 feet from the screen, contrast became more than acceptable.
Please provide a link, where I can buy that projector? Yes, that projector should be great, if and when it becomes available to purchase. But it is a commercial projector being converted to supposedly home use. A projector that requires an equipment room and a chiller. It is about like having a discussion on which car would make the best car for an uber business and throwing in a lambo into the discussion.
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post #568 of 652 Old 08-15-2019, 08:38 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Aztar35 View Post
Well, first off, DLP has the best contrast not Lcos. The title to this thread is a bit confusing. It should read lesser contrast but in the entry to mid-level DLP price range. The Christie Ultra is untouchable with contrast and black level galore, but its price tag, even for its smaller entry version, is the equivalent of a used exotic car.
.
What's the native contrast of it? And if it really bests the native contrast of Lcos at 60,000:1 plus(?), then how does it do it?
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post #569 of 652 Old 08-15-2019, 10:57 AM
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What's the native contrast of it? And if it really bests the native contrast of Lcos at 60,000:1 plus(?), then how does it do it?
Here is the thread on the upcoming Christie Eclipse projector.
https://www.avsforum.com/forum/86-ul...projector.html
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post #570 of 652 Old 08-15-2019, 02:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Garrett View Post
Please provide a link, where I can buy that projector? Yes, that projector should be great, if and when it becomes available to purchase. But it is a commercial projector being converted to supposedly home use. A projector that requires an equipment room and a chiller. It is about like having a discussion on which car would make the best car for an uber business and throwing in a lambo into the discussion.
I think when the Eclipse's full release to the masses happens, the 5,000 lumen projector will probably be the one to get.

I think you've missed the point, which is that in the current state of DLP technology the better DLPs can and will best Lcos in native contrast.

The subtext of the narrative here is that DLP technology is incapable of surpassing Lcos when it comes to native contrast. This narrative is false.

With upper tier DLPs models, it's a different story. And it was already mentioned that even the entry level Christie would cost a hefty some, perhaps north of $90K.

But I believe that these RGB laser DLPs are the future of projection technology and will leave all other projection technology in envy. So, DLP is the future, not the past.


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What's the native contrast of it? And if it really bests the native contrast of Lcos at 60,000:1 plus(?), then how does it do it?
Oh my goodness, great question, fleaman; it obliterates Lcos numbers. This is the future!!! Our own Arrow had this to say:

NATIVE ON/OFF CONTRAST = 21,150,500:1

1% ADL = 83,649:1

2% ADL = 44,545:1

3% ADL = 34,730:1

4% ADL = 19,461:1

5% ADL = 15,452:1

10% ADL = 8,228:1

20% ADL = 3,771:1

ANSI CONTRAST = 1,035:1
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