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post #661 of 707 Old 08-30-2019, 04:46 AM
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My goodness, it even gets better.


Kraine has just posted his test review of the Chinese Xiaomi DLP 4K XPR laser UST projector: https://www.passionhomecinema.fr/blo...is-de-gregory/


(English language version at the bottom, following the French review text).


Made me feel like Luke Skywalker ("I don't believe it").


Quote (bold highlights mine):


"Anyway, let’s come back to my surprise. Indeed, I have been plagued for several months by the contrast regression observed on DLP projectors equipped with Texas Instrument’s 0.47 chip, with average measurements of 300 to 500:1 at best, which means poor values. I don’t know how the engineers who developed this projector did it, but the promises of native contrast (with the right colors) are kept. They range from 2500:1 to 2700:1. This is excellent and is reflected in the image with dense and detailed blacks, supported by an Ansi contrast that borders on 500:1 (490:1). The activation of the dynamic contrast brings little Evolution."

WTF? Apparently it's technically possible to achieve that kind of contrast with the inferior 0.47" DMD, I wonder what the potential could be utilizing the 0.66" DMD.


I'd say the usual suspects of the other DLP manufacturers better have a look into this to determine how this Chinese company apparently accomplished such a feat, previously considered impossible or at least improbable.


While I have no interest in any UST front projector for my personal applications, I will nevertheless give any DLP projector from now on a wide berth that doesn't perform on at least a similar level.
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post #662 of 707 Old 08-30-2019, 05:29 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Frank714 View Post
My goodness, it even gets better.


Kraine has just posted his test review of the Chinese Xiaomi DLP 4K XPR laser UST projector: https://www.passionhomecinema.fr/blo...is-de-gregory/
Just read his article in french (I'm french). The guy sounds legit shocked lmao. He thinks it throws a nice picture and the measurements we much better than he anticipated.
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post #663 of 707 Old 08-30-2019, 05:47 AM
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Originally Posted by entropy02 View Post
Just read his article in french (I'm french). The guy sounds legit shocked lmao. He thinks it throws a nice picture and the measurements we much better than he anticipated.

Yes, already his introduction suggested he'd be dropping a bomb in his review. I think it's safe to say that "kraine" is an internationally respected and competent AV reviewer.


A couple of days ago he informed us, that there'll be a comeback of the larger 4K XPR 0.66" DMD (Acer, LG, Vivitek) with better native contrast performance than the smaller 0.47" DMD - and now this!


I'm sitting here getting delusions of DLP comeback grandure.


I'm wondering how this increase in native DMD contrast performance with the inferior 0.47" DMD would look like transferred to a 0.66" DMD and finally combined with a dynamic iris...
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post #664 of 707 Old 08-30-2019, 10:38 AM
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Here's Kraine's contrast and lumen measurements:

https://www.passionhomecinema.fr/blo...is-de-gregory/
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post #665 of 707 Old 08-30-2019, 07:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DunMunro View Post
Here's Kraine's contrast and lumen measurements:

https://www.passionhomecinema.fr/blo...is-de-gregory/
It seems a little odd that calibrated native on/off cr is only improved by 20% when dynamic mode is used. Considering most dynamic designs increase native cr to at least 4 to 5 times the original cr, it would seem Xiaomi was very conservative with their dynamic mode.

It would be interesting to see what Xiaomi can do with the .66 chip, LED or laser dimming, and a more aggressive dynamic cr algorithm.
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post #666 of 707 Old 08-30-2019, 10:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Frank714 View Post
I'm sitting here getting delusions of DLP comeback grandure.

I'm wondering how this increase in native DMD contrast performance with the inferior 0.47" DMD would look like transferred to a 0.66" DMD and finally combined with a dynamic iris...
You mean like 10 years ago DLP?

Well, if that gets you excited
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post #667 of 707 Old 08-30-2019, 10:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Frank714 View Post
My goodness, it even gets better.


Kraine has just posted his test review of the Chinese Xiaomi DLP 4K XPR laser UST projector: https://www.passionhomecinema.fr/blo...is-de-gregory/


(English language version at the bottom, following the French review text).


Made me feel like Luke Skywalker ("I don't believe it").


Quote (bold highlights mine):


"Anyway, let’s come back to my surprise. Indeed, I have been plagued for several months by the contrast regression observed on DLP projectors equipped with Texas Instrument’s 0.47 chip, with average measurements of 300 to 500:1 at best, which means poor values. I don’t know how the engineers who developed this projector did it, but the promises of native contrast (with the right colors) are kept. They range from 2500:1 to 2700:1. This is excellent and is reflected in the image with dense and detailed blacks, supported by an Ansi contrast that borders on 500:1 (490:1). The activation of the dynamic contrast brings little Evolution."

WTF? Apparently it's technically possible to achieve that kind of contrast with the inferior 0.47" DMD, I wonder what the potential could be utilizing the 0.66" DMD.


I'd say the usual suspects of the other DLP manufacturers better have a look into this to determine how this Chinese company apparently accomplished such a feat, previously considered impossible or at least improbable.


While I have no interest in any UST front projector for my personal applications, I will nevertheless give any DLP projector from now on a wide berth that doesn't perform on at least a similar level.
His contrast numbers have always been suspect. I would never go by them.
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post #668 of 707 Old 08-30-2019, 10:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Frank714 View Post
Yes, already his introduction suggested he'd be dropping a bomb in his review. I think it's safe to say that "kraine" is an internationally respected and competent AV reviewer.


A couple of days ago he informed us, that there'll be a comeback of the larger 4K XPR 0.66" DMD (Acer, LG, Vivitek) with better native contrast performance than the smaller 0.47" DMD - and now this!


I'm sitting here getting delusions of DLP comeback grandure.


I'm wondering how this increase in native DMD contrast performance with the inferior 0.47" DMD would look like transferred to a 0.66" DMD and finally combined with a dynamic iris...
Not when it comes to numbers. If you go back far enough, you will find several people that actually know what they are talking about, try to educate him on how to take measurements.
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post #669 of 707 Old 08-31-2019, 02:44 AM
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I wonder if he checked whether there is any non-defeatable black screen laser dimming happening here; it would be quite possible for Xiaomi to have slipped something in, taking a leaf out of Sony's book....
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post #670 of 707 Old 08-31-2019, 09:51 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bobof View Post
I wonder if he checked whether there is any non-defeatable black screen laser dimming happening here; it would be quite possible for Xiaomi to have slipped something in, taking a leaf out of Sony's book....
That's why Kris Deering uses his '1 pixel on' test

Last edited by fleaman; 08-31-2019 at 10:52 AM.
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post #671 of 707 Old 08-31-2019, 11:35 AM
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Originally Posted by bobof View Post
I wonder if he checked whether there is any non-defeatable black screen laser dimming happening here; it would be quite possible for Xiaomi to have slipped something in, taking a leaf out of Sony's book....
He measured ANSI as 490-1, which is a very good result.
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post #672 of 707 Old 09-01-2019, 04:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DunMunro View Post
He measured ANSI as 490-1, which is a very good result.
I do not trust his regular contrast measurements, much less his ANSI numbers. With ANSI actually being hard to measure accurately. Though 490:1 ANSI is more believable than his 2,800:1 native. I suspect the ANSI number may be low and I know the native contrast number is too high.
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post #673 of 707 Old 09-01-2019, 06:03 PM
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Originally Posted by DunMunro View Post
He measured ANSI as 490-1, which is a very good result.
That seems like a 'typical' result for DLP.
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post #674 of 707 Old 09-01-2019, 06:33 PM
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Originally Posted by Mike Garrett View Post
I do not trust his regular contrast measurements, much less his ANSI numbers. With ANSI actually being hard to measure accurately. Though 490:1 ANSI is more believable than his 2,800:1 native. I suspect the ANSI number may be low and I know the native contrast number is too high.
We were looking at that .47 chip in a DLP projector because we needed brightness for a presentation. The hope was for excellent sharpness and what I'd call convincing black levels; aside from an issue with throw, suffice it to say, I wasn't impressed.
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post #675 of 707 Old 09-01-2019, 06:48 PM
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His contrast numbers have always been suspect. I would never go by them.
I never trust any measurement from a single reviewer, no matter how respected that one reviewer may be. It's always best to consider multiple measurements from a number of different independent reviewers, which is the equivalent of peer review in scientific research.
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post #676 of 707 Old 09-01-2019, 07:01 PM
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Originally Posted by Dave in Green View Post
I never trust any measurement from a single reviewer, no matter how respected that one reviewer may be. It's always best to consider multiple measurements from a number of different independent reviewers, which is the equivalent of peer review in scientific research.
I think what you're suggesting is that to be true to scientific methodology, a pool of test results is preferable to one. That makes perfectly good sense to me, and so long as each reviewer's test was conducted in compliance with standards and commonly accepted norms, that will give us a better understanding of the averages that can take unit to unit variance into account too.
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post #677 of 707 Old 09-01-2019, 07:47 PM
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Originally Posted by fleaman View Post
That seems like a 'typical' result for DLP.
It's the highest I've seen for the .47in XPR DMD.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DunMunro View Post
It's the highest I've seen for the .47in XPR DMD.
He was talking about the 490:1 ANSI number. Not the 2,800:1 native.
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post #679 of 707 Old 09-02-2019, 02:16 AM
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Originally Posted by Dave in Green View Post
I never trust any measurement from a single reviewer, no matter how respected that one reviewer may be. It's always best to consider multiple measurements from a number of different independent reviewers, which is the equivalent of peer review in scientific research.

I concur, but IIRC Kraine's contrast measurements of the BenQ HT3550 and HT5550 were on a par with others and last but not least Germany's leading AudioVision magazine. Therefore he has earned my trust for the time being, what he may have done right or wrong in the past does not concern me.


In this particular case he made it clear in his review that his review sample was donated by a private consumer, so I'm afraid there won't be that many other reviews to provide us with multiple measurements.

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Originally Posted by Mike Garrett View Post
He was talking about the 490:1 ANSI number. Not the 2,800:1 native.
490-1 is the highest I've seen for the .47in XPR DMD.
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Originally Posted by DunMunro View Post
490-1 is the highest I've seen for the .47in XPR DMD.

Actually, Kraine speculated that the contrast improvement might be due to the laser light source, but don't take my word for it, because that's exactly what JVC claims for their upcoming LX-NZ3 0.47" DMD DLP laser projector:

  1. Dynamic light source control achieves high image quality and : 1 contrast
With mechanical apertures, there is some delay when adjusting light output, but JVC’s laser light source can control light output instantaneously, so dynamic brightness adjustment is possible with little or no delay. By controlling the output of the laser according to the brightness of the scene, the LX-NZ3 can reproduce images closer to reality. Moreover, when a complete black signal is input, contrast of : 1 can be achieved by controlling the laser output.


http://pro.jvc.com/pro/pr/2019/consu...3_release.html



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I'm open to the possibility that laser could improve the contrast performance of DLP beyond typical UHP lamp numbers. We just need more data to confirm how great such an improvement might be. While I wouldn't totally dismiss a single source with an established reputation like Kraine, given the variability of individual testing the more data from more reliable sources the more reliable the results.
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post #683 of 707 Old 09-02-2019, 06:13 AM
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I'm open to the possibility that laser could improve the contrast performance of DLP beyond typical UHP lamp numbers. We just need more data to confirm how great such an improvement might be.

On the German HiFi Forum message board, Kraine just reminded me that he measured similar contrast figures with the previous 1080p Xiaomi laser projector (are there other reviews?), but because of JVC's latest announcement it appears that no Chinese Voodoo or Vantablack interior coating is required to achieve better contrast with the 0.47" DMD but rather laser technology.

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Frank714 View Post
Actually, Kraine speculated that the contrast improvement might be due to the laser light source, but don't take my word for it, because that's exactly what JVC claims for their upcoming LX-NZ3 0.47" DMD DLP laser projector:

  1. Dynamic light source control achieves high image quality and : 1 contrast
With mechanical apertures, there is some delay when adjusting light output, but JVC’s laser light source can control light output instantaneously, so dynamic brightness adjustment is possible with little or no delay. By controlling the output of the laser according to the brightness of the scene, the LX-NZ3 can reproduce images closer to reality. Moreover, when a complete black signal is input, contrast of : 1 can be achieved by controlling the laser output.


http://pro.jvc.com/pro/pr/2019/consu...3_release.html


There is a huge difference in claiming 2,800:1 native vs ∞ :1 dynamic on a laser projector. As long as the laser turns off, you can claim ∞:1, no matter how poor the native contrast is. Not a single XPR DLP has hit 2,800:1 for under 100K, so I do not think this measurement could possibly be correct.

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Frank714 View Post
On the German HiFi Forum message board, Kraine just reminded me that he measured similar contrast figures with the previous 1080p Xiaomi laser projector (are there other reviews?), but because of JVC's latest announcement it appears that no Chinese Voodoo or Vantablack interior coating is required to achieve better contrast with the 0.47" DMD but rather laser technology.
I can already tell you, JVC's new laser projector has typical DLP native contrast, because I have already asked the question and been told the answer. It will be around 1,000:1 like all the rest of them. You do realize it is easier to get higher contrast on a 1080P projector? There is a lot less gap area on a 1080P projector. You all can wish for and hang your hopes on bad measurements all you want, but until an extra panel is used, like Christie, native contrast numbers are not going to change, using current DLP technology. Laser does not increase native one bit. It does increase dynamic, as in ∞:1 if laser can turn off. But if the native is low, then the step from off to native is a big jump, same for native to off and it can look unrealistic.
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post #686 of 707 Old 09-02-2019, 06:39 AM
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As long as the laser turns off, you can claim ∞:1, no matter how poor the native contrast is.

I see your point, but wouldn't that be somwhat misleading from JVC's side? The way I read the press release sounds like a major leap towards contrast improvement regarding the current generation of DMDs.


Good news is that we can all have a first look ourselves next weekend at IFA or the following one at CEDIA.

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Originally Posted by Frank714 View Post
I see your point, but wouldn't that be somwhat misleading from JVC's side? The way I read the press release sounds like a major leap towards contrast improvement regarding the current generation of DMDs.


Good news is that we can all have a first look ourselves next weekend at IFA or the following one at CEDIA.
Misleading? It is ∞:1 dynamic if the laser turns off. See my post right above yours.
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Since the thread title is "DLP contrast worse than 5 years ago?" and not "DLP native contrast worse than 5 years ago?" I'll rephrase my question:


Thanks to the dynamic laser dimming we can probably expect contrast surpassing the native one and a more stable performance than with a dynamic iris?


Frankly I couldn't care less whether the native contrast of the DMD is piss-poor or not as long as 'dynamic' intervention yields an overall better contrast impression without noticable hick-ups.

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Frank714 View Post
Since the thread title is "DLP contrast worse than 5 years ago?" and not "DLP native contrast worse than 5 years ago?" I'll rephrase my question:


Thanks to the dynamic laser dimming we can probably expect contrast surpassing the native one and a more stable performance than with a dynamic iris?


Frankly I couldn't care less whether the native contrast of the DMD is piss-poor or not as long as 'dynamic' intervention yields an overall better contrast impression without noticable hick-ups.
Of course it refers to native. Otherwise we would not even have this thread because laser turning off is ∞:1 and that is much better dynamic contrast than anything bulb based, 5 years ago.
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post #690 of 707 Old 09-02-2019, 08:22 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Frank714 View Post
Since the thread title is "DLP contrast worse than 5 years ago?" and not "DLP native contrast worse than 5 years ago?" I'll rephrase my question:


Thanks to the dynamic laser dimming we can probably expect contrast surpassing the native one and a more stable performance than with a dynamic iris?


Frankly I couldn't care less whether the native contrast of the DMD is piss-poor or not as long as 'dynamic' intervention yields an overall better contrast impression without noticable hick-ups.
Let's put your only dynamic contrast matters to a simple test. Let's say you have two laser projectors. Both projectors are identical in cost, brightness, sharpness, motion handling and color space. Both track gamma identically and both have the same HDR tone mapping capability. Projector number one has 1,000:1 native and ∞:1 dynamic. Projector two has 1,000,000:1 native and 1,500,000:1 dynamic. ∞:1 compared to 1,500,000:1 is a huge difference. Which projector are you going to pick for your room?
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