DLP contrast worse than 5 years ago? - Page 3 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
Forum Jump: 
 286Likes
Reply
 
Thread Tools
post #61 of 643 Old 04-11-2018, 04:50 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
fleaman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Los Angeles
Posts: 4,995
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 231 Post(s)
Liked: 170
Quote:
Originally Posted by stanger89 View Post
The lag on my JVC is too high for most gaming, so that's the only reason I still have the Planar.
Ah, I see.

JVC finally has a low lag mode on their newer PJ's...
fleaman is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #62 of 643 Old 04-11-2018, 05:05 PM
AVS Forum Addicted Member
 
Mike Garrett's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Posts: 25,834
Mentioned: 234 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 12013 Post(s)
Liked: 9535
Send a message via Skype™ to Mike Garrett
Quote:
Originally Posted by fleaman View Post
Ah, I see.

JVC finally has a low lag mode on their newer PJ's...
JVC added low lag mode with the 20 series. So we are on our second generation for low lag mode.
Mike Garrett is offline  
post #63 of 643 Old 04-11-2018, 08:55 PM
 
Dave Harper's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2000
Location: Paradise on Earth
Posts: 6,554
Mentioned: 62 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3159 Post(s)
Liked: 1723
Quote:
Originally Posted by stanger89 View Post
Absolutely, I've got a Planar 8150 and an RS600 in my HT. Contrast is the main difference. If you were to watch bright content, you'd be hard pressed to tell the difference, both can be calibrated to near perfection as far as color goes, sharpness is a tossup, brightness can be matched (but the RS600 has a lot more on tap if you need it).

But when you throw in something like Harry Potter or Star Wars, it's no contest. The JVC just blows the Planar out of the water, blacks look black, not milky gray.



Shadow detail is a calibration issue. Other than that, sounds like you haven't seen a properly setup modern JVC (or Sony for that matter).

Totally agree about shadow detail being mainly about the calibration.

One thing I'll say here though, after last night, is that I think many also haven't seen a properly setup, Calibrated and tweaked HarperVision style high lumen XPR DLP like the LK970. The image I stumbled into last night is nothing short of amazing for front projection home theater! It literally looked like a flat panel. I kid you not. I sat in amazement, stunned at what I was seeing. I wish I was on the mainland so I could take this thing around on a tour. Wow.

Note that I am not saying I got the same native on/off as a JVC or Sony, but the things this thing was doing FAR outweighed the lower contrast and slightly smaller color gamut, by a mile! I think I can still actually improve it more, too!

Next up is the Sony 885 that's here.
Nick Laslett likes this.
Dave Harper is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #64 of 643 Old 04-11-2018, 09:06 PM
AVS Forum Addicted Member
 
coderguy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 14,050
Mentioned: 62 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2436 Post(s)
Liked: 1320
There just isn't all that much true 4k content out that is well mastered, and what is out is kind of pricey just to buy a disk to watch it one time.

Those of us that have been using HP screens for years are not that impressed by brightness, seen it all before.
Brightness is awesome for that POP, but nothing new really.

If I want to see a higher resolution, I'll just sit farther back for now. I'll continue to wait on 4k until it matures and gets a bit cheaper.
ferbal likes this.

**Updated Projector Calculator Released NOV 2017**
-- www.webprojectorcalculator.com --
coderguy is offline  
post #65 of 643 Old 04-11-2018, 09:20 PM
 
Dave Harper's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2000
Location: Paradise on Earth
Posts: 6,554
Mentioned: 62 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3159 Post(s)
Liked: 1723
Quote:
Originally Posted by coderguy View Post
There just isn't all that much true 4k content out that is well mastered, and what is out is kind of pricey just to buy a disk to watch it one time.



Those of us that have been using HP screens for years are not that impressed by brightness, seen it all before.

Brightness is awesome for that POP, but nothing new really.



If I want to see a higher resolution, I'll just sit farther back for now. I'll continue to wait on 4k until it matures and gets a bit cheaper.

Sorry to hear that. You're really missing out.
Archibald1 likes this.
Dave Harper is offline  
post #66 of 643 Old 04-12-2018, 04:42 AM
AVS Forum Addicted Member
 
stanger89's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Marion, IA
Posts: 23,130
Mentioned: 34 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4156 Post(s)
Liked: 2384
Quote:
Originally Posted by fleaman View Post
Ah, I see.

JVC finally has a low lag mode on their newer PJ's...
Yeah, I almost got an RS640, largely for that reason, but things didn't work out.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave Harper View Post
Totally agree about shadow detail being mainly about the calibration.

One thing I'll say here though, after last night, is that I think many also haven't seen a properly setup, Calibrated and tweaked HarperVision style high lumen XPR DLP like the LK970. The image I stumbled into last night is nothing short of amazing for front projection home theater! It literally looked like a flat panel. I kid you not. I sat in amazement, stunned at what I was seeing. I wish I was on the mainland so I could take this thing around on a tour. Wow.

Note that I am not saying I got the same native on/off as a JVC or Sony, but the things this thing was doing FAR outweighed the lower contrast and slightly smaller color gamut, by a mile! I think I can still actually improve it more, too!
Did you watch anything like Harry Potter or other dark content? Pretty much any projector always looks good on bright/mixed content, it's the dark stuff where the low contrast machines fall apart. I have no doubt your LK970 looks great on stuff like Planet Earth and the like, but I doubt black looks anything like black in stuff like the night scenes in Harry Potter.
Dave Harper likes this.
stanger89 is offline  
post #67 of 643 Old 04-12-2018, 06:59 AM
AVS Forum Addicted Member
 
Mike Garrett's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Posts: 25,834
Mentioned: 234 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 12013 Post(s)
Liked: 9535
Send a message via Skype™ to Mike Garrett
Quote:
Originally Posted by stanger89 View Post
Yeah, I almost got an RS640, largely for that reason, but things didn't work out.



Did you watch anything like Harry Potter or other dark content? Pretty much any projector always looks good on bright/mixed content, it's the dark stuff where the low contrast machines fall apart. I have no doubt your LK970 looks great on stuff like Planet Earth and the like, but I doubt black looks anything like black in stuff like the night scenes in Harry Potter.
If he is running it at around 30FL, then the blacks will look a lot better than you think.
Aztar35 likes this.
Mike Garrett is offline  
post #68 of 643 Old 04-12-2018, 11:19 AM
 
Dave Harper's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2000
Location: Paradise on Earth
Posts: 6,554
Mentioned: 62 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3159 Post(s)
Liked: 1723
Quote:
Originally Posted by stanger89 View Post
....Did you watch anything like Harry Potter or other dark content? Pretty much any projector always looks good on bright/mixed content, it's the dark stuff where the low contrast machines fall apart. I have no doubt your LK970 looks great on stuff like Planet Earth and the like, but I doubt black looks anything like black in stuff like the night scenes in Harry Potter.
I could say the inverse to you, stanger. When you watch high specular highlight HDR movies, do you not feel lacking with your lowish lumen JVC as compared to this 5,000 lumen laser phosphor DLP?

I have watched dark content and as I have said numerous times, it isn't and I don't expect it to be JVC/Sony/Epson SXRD/DiLA/LCoS/rLCD blacks, but as I also said, it is more than acceptable and good enough and this was the key takeaway from my posts:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave Harper
Note that I am not saying I got the same native on/off as a JVC or Sony, but the things this thing was doing FAR outweighed the lower contrast and slightly smaller color gamut, by a mile! I think I can still actually improve it more, too!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Garrett View Post
If he is running it at around 30FL, then the blacks will look a lot better than you think.
I didn't take any measurements after I stumbled into these settings because it was super late by that point and I was falling asleep, being the old geezer that I am, so I had to call it a night. I had a little time late last night and noticed a couple things I hadn't the night before, so I do need to tweak a little more too.

I think some people just need to flush their minds of what they recall from lamp based 1080p RGBY, RGBCMY, etc. color wheel tech and start thinking differently about "4K" laser DLPs since the light path design is so different, especially with these higher quality prosumer and pro models as compared to some of these cheaper under $2K lamp models starting to flood the market. You don't start to get what I am talking about until you reach the UHZ65, and even that shows some budgeting decisions that had to made.

Of course it really comes down to what you watch and need in a projector and its environment. I watch just as much sports and TV almost as I do movies, and most of those are now UHD HDR, so when I factor all that in, this thing has the most pluses vs its minuses, as I have listed already countless times. If I go back to a bat cave theater and only watch movies in it, then the choice would probably be different.

Last edited by Dave Harper; 04-12-2018 at 11:25 AM.
Dave Harper is offline  
post #69 of 643 Old 04-12-2018, 11:47 AM
AVS Forum Addicted Member
 
stanger89's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Marion, IA
Posts: 23,130
Mentioned: 34 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4156 Post(s)
Liked: 2384
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave Harper View Post
Of course it really comes down to what you watch and need in a projector and its environment. I watch just as much sports and TV almost as I do movies, and most of those are now UHD HDR, so when I factor all that in, this thing has the most pluses vs its minuses, as I have listed already countless times. If I go back to a bat cave theater and only watch movies in it, then the choice would probably be different.
And that's really what I'm getting at with my question. What do you watch mostly... If you watch a lot of, or mostly stuff like Planet Earth or The Grand Tour, etc (which I'd say sports and a lot of TV falls into), then I can absolutely understand how a really bright DLP would work great for that. That content plays well to what's always been DLP's strengths. The Grand Tour would look fantastic on something like my Planar 8150 but 2-5x as bright, and I could definitely understand giving up contrast for that.

For me though, the vast majority of the 4K HDR I have and have, have access to, and actually watch is content that has lots of very dark content, lots of sci-fi/action movies. Those fall apart for me if black isn't black. And while I understand that brightness biases our eyes to improve apparent contrast, but I'm still skeptical that even 2000:1 native (with no DI) at 5000 Lumens isn't going to have a terrible black level in something like the Ministry of Magic scenes in Harry Potter. I mean you're looking at a black level that's at least 30x higher than my Planar's and I already don't find that acceptable. Heck, I'm still skeptical I'd find an RS4500 acceptable, but at least that has a very good DI algorithm to aid it, and 5-10x the native contrast of these DLPs.

I'm not saying your wrong, I'm just trying to calibrate your report/thoughts/opinion to my own experiences. If we watch dramatically different content, as it seems we do, then that's a key factor for me to take into consideration. What I take away from your comments is that for bright, punchy HDR content, these bright laser pumped DLPs throw a great image, and for that type of content, the black level sacrifice isn't too bad.
stanger89 is offline  
post #70 of 643 Old 04-12-2018, 01:14 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
Aztar35's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2016
Posts: 2,934
Mentioned: 28 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2345 Post(s)
Liked: 1236
I understand that this thread is not specific to any make DLP or model PJ...so let me say that the way I see it is that these new XPR chips have been associated with sub-par black levels, as opposed to the 1080 .95 DMDs of old (Dark Chip 3 and DC4). For example, at least prior to the JVC RS4500 (contrast-related) firmware update, an owner of both the Sim2 C3X1080 (DC4) and the RS4500 said the RS4500's contrast was only a little better than the DLP's. (DC4 shows as competitive.) But in every review and report I've read so far on these XPR DMDs, the reviewer/reporter says sub-par contrast/sub-par black levels.

I ran tests between my Runco LS-5 (DC3) and the Vivitek HK2299 (XPR shifting). With the Runco's dynamic iris off, the Runco's black levels were still better. The contrast measurements weren't too far off. The Runco (again w/dyn. iris off) measured 2300:1; the Vivitek HK2299 measured 1859:1. However, the HK2299 outperformed the $7,000 MSRP Runco in nearly every other category, especially color! With the dynamic iris of the Runco turned on, it is expected to reach 15000:1. I actually measured 8000:1. The take away is perhaps these XPR PJs should return to an older technology that proved worthy...a mechanical, dynamic iris.

But I'd like to return to the Benq LK970 because I think it's even more unique. It has that .66 XPR DMD but also offers laser at 5K lumen brightness and excellent light path/high-end optics.

Dave:

Did you ever find out if the LK970 has dynamic dimming?
Have you yet had a chance to take a measurement of the black level on the LK970?
... measured the contrast?

Last edited by Aztar35; 04-12-2018 at 01:32 PM.
Aztar35 is offline  
post #71 of 643 Old 04-12-2018, 02:00 PM
AVS Forum Addicted Member
 
zombie10k's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 12,755
Mentioned: 160 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 5270 Post(s)
Liked: 5544
How did the HK2299 out-perform the Planar in color when it's stuck at R709?

The Planar is near dead on D65/R709 out of the box. Maybe the Vivitek looked more colorful because it's brighter or had the saturation overcooked. the ~2K priced XPR projectors all need a good calibration out of the box.

I have a DC4 in my 8150, it's still a great projector 10 years later with low lag time. The current XPR models with their limited lens shift don't work in my setup with the HP screen. My Sharp 30K 3D DLP also has excellent lens shift, a thing of the past now unfortunately.

most have eliminated 3D as well which is a shame since DLP does a great job with 3D.
zombie10k is offline  
post #72 of 643 Old 04-12-2018, 04:30 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
Aztar35's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2016
Posts: 2,934
Mentioned: 28 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2345 Post(s)
Liked: 1236
Quote:
Originally Posted by zombie10k View Post
How did the HK2299 out-perform the Planar in color when it's stuck at R709?

The Planar is near dead on D65/R709 out of the box.
Maybe the Vivitek looked more colorful because it's brighter or had the saturation overcooked. the ~2K priced XPR projectors all need a good calibration out of the box.

I have a DC4 in my 8150, it's still a great projector 10 years later with low lag time. The current XPR models with their limited lens shift don't work in my setup with the HP screen. My Sharp 30K 3D DLP also has excellent lens shift, a thing of the past now unfortunately.

most have eliminated 3D as well which is a shame since DLP does a great job with 3D.
You have two great single-chip DLP PJs to be sure...and perhaps one of the best for 3D in the Sharp.


As far as color, I can tell you have not seen the 2299 (not to be confused with the 2288 lesser model) in action...? I think I knew the difference between overcooked color and wider color reproduction when I had my first AVS post.

Anyway, the HK2299's color is noticeably better. And why would I have a bias for one over the other when both projectors were mine??? The HK2299's color wheel is supposedly filmed/specially coated and the machine's 310 watt lamp/brightness helps achieve better color luminance points in HDR mode. On my measurements, the HK2299's color showed just a touch wider than 709 on target points. Yes, it's possible to get something between 709 and P3. I'm sure you've tried your RS600 through the Oppo 203 with HDR off BT2020 and then measured. ...not DCI P3 but not flat out rec 709 either.
Aztar35 is offline  
post #73 of 643 Old 04-12-2018, 04:33 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
Aztar35's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2016
Posts: 2,934
Mentioned: 28 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2345 Post(s)
Liked: 1236
Quote:
Originally Posted by zombie10k View Post

most have eliminated 3D as well which is a shame since DLP does a great job with 3D.
Yes, but now we're really moving away from the original post. But it is sad about not having 3D. However, I'm guessing it will re-appear in the .47 chip shifting units to come.
Aztar35 is offline  
post #74 of 643 Old 04-12-2018, 07:18 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
Ruined's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 6,822
Mentioned: 35 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2610 Post(s)
Liked: 1249
Quote:
Originally Posted by Aztar35 View Post
Yes, but now we're really moving away from the original post. But it is sad about not having 3D. However, I'm guessing it will re-appear in the .47 chip shifting units to come.
3D is also reappearing in the 0.66" models:
https://www.benq.com/en/projector/ci...fications.html

As I've said before, 3D software was likely not ready until Q4 2017 when most of the 0.47" units launched. Now that it is ready, we will see 0.66" units with 3D also. I've heard the HT8050/W11000 are firmware upgradable to 3D by BenQ as of January but am not in a position to confirm this.

Last edited by Ruined; 04-12-2018 at 07:21 PM.
Ruined is offline  
post #75 of 643 Old 04-12-2018, 07:19 PM
AVS Forum Addicted Member
 
Mike Garrett's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Posts: 25,834
Mentioned: 234 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 12013 Post(s)
Liked: 9535
Send a message via Skype™ to Mike Garrett
Quote:
Originally Posted by Aztar35 View Post
I understand that this thread is not specific to any make DLP or model PJ...so let me say that the way I see it is that these new XPR chips have been associated with sub-par black levels, as opposed to the 1080 .95 DMDs of old (Dark Chip 3 and DC4). For example, at least prior to the JVC RS4500 (contrast-related) firmware update, an owner of both the Sim2 C3X1080 (DC4) and the RS4500 said the RS4500's contrast was only a little better than the DLP's. (DC4 shows as competitive.) But in every review and report I've read so far on these XPR DMDs, the reviewer/reporter says sub-par contrast/sub-par black levels.

I ran tests between my Runco LS-5 (DC3) and the Vivitek HK2299 (XPR shifting). With the Runco's dynamic iris off, the Runco's black levels were still better. The contrast measurements weren't too far off. The Runco (again w/dyn. iris off) measured 2300:1; the Vivitek HK2299 measured 1859:1. However, the HK2299 outperformed the $7,000 MSRP Runco in nearly every other category, especially color! With the dynamic iris of the Runco turned on, it is expected to reach 15000:1. I actually measured 8000:1. The take away is perhaps these XPR PJs should return to an older technology that proved worthy...a mechanical, dynamic iris.

But I'd like to return to the Benq LK970 because I think it's even more unique. It has that .66 XPR DMD but also offers laser at 5K lumen brightness and excellent light path/high-end optics.

Dave:

Did you ever find out if the LK970 has dynamic dimming?
Have you yet had a chance to take a measurement of the black level on the LK970?
... measured the contrast?
8,000:1. My 4500 measured nearly three times that, in my setup.. Combine that with the dynamic dimming and that is why I did not feel that I was missing out, moving from an RS600 to the RS4500.
Mike Garrett is offline  
post #76 of 643 Old 04-12-2018, 07:22 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
Squirrel!'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2015
Posts: 1,736
Mentioned: 6 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 804 Post(s)
Liked: 494
Quote:
Originally Posted by antialiased View Post
I've been keeping my eye on the new 4k DLPs coming out and have noticed really abysmal native contrast ratios (<2000:1) and people on this forum calling a 2000:1 native (on/off) contrast "good" for a DLP projector. Since I had a Mitsubishi five years ago that had (apparently) much better native contrast (Mitsubishi DLPs were variously measured around that time between 3500:1 and 14000:1), I'm curious: What gives?

The way I figure it, there are only three options:

  • The way they are being tested changed;
  • Somehow the pixel shifting (4k) destroys contrast;
  • The panels perform worse than 5 year old TI DMD3s;
  • or (my guess) with auto iris/dimming becoming ubiquitous, the manufacturers have less incentive to care about native contrast.

Since I am just finishing up the brickwork for my home theater addition, I'm looking to upgrade to 4k. If anyone can explain why contrast has (seemingly) gotten worse in the DLP sphere, I would greatly appreciate it.

Before someone points out the obvious: Yes, LCoS is king of contrast and blacks, no need to point it out, but for my needs the size and weight put those behemoths out of the running.
Who is making 4k DLP these days? And even more important, you make it sound like EVERYONE is. What are you talking about?

Main: Mitsubishi 73736|OTA|fireTV|Sony BDP-S1100|Denon AVR4311CI|MartinLogan Preface|Phantom|MartinLogan Encore TF|2 - 1000watt DIY 12" Subs|Behringer KM750|2 Bass Shaker|APC H15 Power Conditioner|Harmony Hub|Sennheiser RS 160|SMSL B1 BT Rx|Linksys SE2500
MBR: Vizio VF550M|OTA|fireTV3|Sony BDP-S1100|Denon AVR-X1000|Chane A1rx-c|Dayton SAT-BK|MartinLogan Dynamo 300|Belkin Bridge|Belkin PF30|Harmony 550
Squirrel! is offline  
post #77 of 643 Old 04-12-2018, 07:24 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
Squirrel!'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2015
Posts: 1,736
Mentioned: 6 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 804 Post(s)
Liked: 494
Quote:
Originally Posted by Squirrel! View Post
Who is making 4k DLP these days? And even more important, you make it sound like EVERYONE is. What are you talking about?
Nevermind. Just realized this is in the PJ forum.

Main: Mitsubishi 73736|OTA|fireTV|Sony BDP-S1100|Denon AVR4311CI|MartinLogan Preface|Phantom|MartinLogan Encore TF|2 - 1000watt DIY 12" Subs|Behringer KM750|2 Bass Shaker|APC H15 Power Conditioner|Harmony Hub|Sennheiser RS 160|SMSL B1 BT Rx|Linksys SE2500
MBR: Vizio VF550M|OTA|fireTV3|Sony BDP-S1100|Denon AVR-X1000|Chane A1rx-c|Dayton SAT-BK|MartinLogan Dynamo 300|Belkin Bridge|Belkin PF30|Harmony 550
Squirrel! is offline  
post #78 of 643 Old 04-12-2018, 07:32 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
Ruined's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 6,822
Mentioned: 35 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2610 Post(s)
Liked: 1249
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Garrett View Post
Can you show me the figures, that support your claim? I am talking about HT projectors, used in dedicated rooms, not counting the cheap $1,000 DLP projectors that people are throwing in family rooms and bedrooms for gaming/movies. Because most of the time, those rooms are not even close to being optimized for performance. I agree that you do not need super high native contrast, though it would be prefered, but if you can get in excess of 8,000:1 native paired with laser with good dynamic dimming and a decent lens, then you have something special. Basically you would have an RS4500.

The 4K pixel shifting DLP's have the resolution,but their lack of contrast really shows up when compared to a good HT projector when placed in an optimized room.
Quote:
Originally Posted by coderguy
DLP is dead in the high-end for now, the only reason it still lives is because of the sub-$2000 market.
As far as the $2000+ DLP market, it's only because there will always be left-over fans and hold-outs for as long as possible.
In terms of global "figures" they are only available as "home theater" which includes everything.

BUT, one of the most popular online projector dealers (might call them PEOPLE) on the internet, actually has a list of Top 10 bestselling home theater projectors in past 30 days (rolling) with prices. I am sure you know who I am talking about and how to find their home theater top10 bestsellers list. They sell Sony, Epson, Optoma, BenQ, Vivitek, amongst others.

Bestselling projector over $3000: Optoma UHZ65 DLP 4K (outselling Sony 285ES/385ES LCOS 4K)
Bestselling projector over $2000: Optoma UHD65 DLP 4K (outselling Epson 5040 3LCD 3D 4Ke)
Bestselling projector over $1500: Optoma UHD60 DLP 4K (outselling Epson 4000 3LCD 3D 4Ke)

So there you go, figures of stuff over $1000. Notice a trend?
Mike Butny likes this.

Last edited by Ruined; 04-12-2018 at 07:47 PM.
Ruined is offline  
post #79 of 643 Old 04-12-2018, 07:50 PM
AVS Forum Addicted Member
 
Mike Garrett's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Posts: 25,834
Mentioned: 234 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 12013 Post(s)
Liked: 9535
Send a message via Skype™ to Mike Garrett
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ruined View Post
In terms of global "figures" they are only available as "home theater" which includes everything.

BUT, one of the most popular projector dealers (might call them PEOPLE) on the internet, actually has a list of bestselling home theater projectors in past 30 days with prices. They sell Sony, Epson, Optoma, BenQ, Vivitek, amongst others.

Bestselling projector over $3000: Optoma UHZ65
Bestselling projector over $2000: Optoma UHD65
Bestselling projector over $1500: Optoma UHD60

So there you go, figures of stuff over $1000. Notice a trend?
Sorry, Ruined, but using that dealer to base all of this on is highly flawed. To give you the opposite, I can think of another dealer that sells a ton of JVC and Sony projectors, so using their stats you would come to a completely different conclusion.

Speaking of the dealer you are referring to, if you had asked them a few years ago what was the top selling HT projector and they would have told you the Panasonic PT-AE?000 series. And the reason for that, had nothing to do with the projector. It had to do with distribution.
Tom Bley likes this.
Mike Garrett is offline  
post #80 of 643 Old 04-12-2018, 07:57 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
Ruined's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 6,822
Mentioned: 35 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2610 Post(s)
Liked: 1249
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Garrett View Post
Sorry, Ruined, but using that dealer to base all of this on is highly flawed. To give you the opposite, I can think of another dealer that sells a ton of JVC and Sony projectors, so using their stats you would come to a completely different conclusion.

Speaking of the dealer you are referring to, if you had asked them a few years ago what was the top selling HT projector and they would have told you the Panasonic PT-AE?000 series. And the reason for that, had nothing to do with the projector. It had to do with distribution.
You wanted me to provide some proof of sales, I did so. You call it "highly flawed," but it is in fact the truth from their public sales stats. However they got there, doesn't really matter - the point is the projectors are selling as I stated from this large dealer so clearly they have some significant consumer appeal.

Sales stats also show DLP in the lead with home theater projectors in general:
http://www.pmaresearch.com/services/...ng-projectors/
...but that includes all priceranges. If you have a public source you can prove less flawed for home theater $1000+, feel free to share.

Last edited by Ruined; 04-12-2018 at 08:02 PM.
Ruined is offline  
post #81 of 643 Old 04-12-2018, 07:59 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
fleaman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Los Angeles
Posts: 4,995
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 231 Post(s)
Liked: 170
Quote:
Originally Posted by stanger89 View Post
I'm not saying your wrong, I'm just trying to calibrate your report/thoughts/opinion to my own experiences. If we watch dramatically different content, as it seems we do, then that's a key factor for me to take into consideration. What I take away from your comments is that for bright, punchy HDR content, these bright laser pumped DLPs throw a great image, and for that type of content, the black level sacrifice isn't too bad.
Yeah, there's the subjective taste thing going on too.

But also, there are those who want their PJ's to perform like flatpanels---bright and punchy. Then there are those who want their PJ's to perform like real (or reel!) PJ's in commercial theaters, which are down to the 16fl level, if not lower. Yeah you can adjust your PJ on the fly for contant...Low/Hi lamp, closed/opened iris, etc., but ultimately my RS57 isn't gonna throw out 2000+ lumens, and honestly in a dark lightless room, it would hurt my eyes at that level (I'm on a small screen).

I'm in the same boat as stranger89---I prefer my PJ to be more theater like, and mostly use it for just blu ray movies. I don't game...sports don't always look that great blown up, even with my cable HD feed---has more to do with the long camera shots---close ups look great, but most of the 'action' are long shots that just don't resolve well. I don't want to watch the news on the PJ, etc. So my flat panel is great for much of that general TV viewing stuff, which honestly isn't that cinematic (the content) to begin with. Though some TV shows are cinematic, so I fire up the PJ, but part of that cinematic look of these shows might have to do with the lower APL scenes than the typical reality show APL. So again, not needing 2000+ lumens to watch Mr. Robot!

So, it's a choice thing too. For me and my tastes and set up and preferences, a JVC PJ works great, and I don't feel the need for the brightness, otherwise I'd open up the iris and bump the lamp on high, etc.
fleaman is offline  
post #82 of 643 Old 04-12-2018, 08:21 PM
AVS Forum Addicted Member
 
Mike Garrett's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Posts: 25,834
Mentioned: 234 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 12013 Post(s)
Liked: 9535
Send a message via Skype™ to Mike Garrett
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ruined View Post
You wanted me to provide some proof of sales, I did so. You call it "highly flawed," but it is in fact the truth from their public sales stats. However they got there, doesn't really matter - the point is the projectors are selling as I stated from this large dealer so clearly they have some significant consumer appeal.

Sales stats also show DLP in the lead with home theater projectors in general:
http://www.pmaresearch.com/services/...ng-projectors/
...but that includes all priceranges. If you have a public source you can prove less flawed for home theater $1000+, feel free to share.
Flawed, because of information I know that you don't. Info I can't post here. Not arguing if they are selling well or not.
Mike Garrett is offline  
post #83 of 643 Old 04-12-2018, 09:14 PM
AVS Forum Addicted Member
 
coderguy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 14,050
Mentioned: 62 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2436 Post(s)
Liked: 1320
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ruined View Post
You wanted me to provide some proof of sales, I did so. You call it "highly flawed," but it is in fact the truth from their public sales stats. However they got there, doesn't really matter - the point is the projectors are selling as I stated from this large dealer so clearly they have some significant consumer appeal.

Sales stats also show DLP in the lead with home theater projectors in general:
http://www.pmaresearch.com/services/...ng-projectors/
...but that includes all priceranges. If you have a public source you can prove less flawed for home theater $1000+, feel free to share.
The VW bug was probably the best selling car in some city on some month of some year...
Sales stats don't mean much, the best selling headphones in the world are probably the $20 ones Walmart sells, what does that mean?

The best selling projector in this forum over $3000 is definitely not the UHZ-65...
This forum has a higher level of awareness than the rest of the buying population, and most will choose a JVC or Sony...

I wonder why, we all know why, black levels.

It doesn't bother me some people don't care about black levels as much, but I think a lot of the reason is purchase justification...

**Updated Projector Calculator Released NOV 2017**
-- www.webprojectorcalculator.com --
coderguy is offline  
post #84 of 643 Old 04-12-2018, 09:51 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
fleaman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Los Angeles
Posts: 4,995
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 231 Post(s)
Liked: 170
To the same degree---OLED flat panels can't get as bright as it's LED/LCD competitors, but those OLED blacks are something to marvel at.

As good as some of those LCD blacks can get, there's just no comparison with OLED's and I don't think anyone would honestly chose an LCD over an OLED to get a brighter screen with far less black/contrast performance. Unless you're a sports bar....
fleaman is offline  
post #85 of 643 Old 04-12-2018, 11:28 PM
AVS Forum Addicted Member
 
zombie10k's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 12,755
Mentioned: 160 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 5270 Post(s)
Liked: 5544
Quote:
Originally Posted by Aztar35 View Post
I'm sure you've tried your RS600 through the Oppo 203 with HDR off BT2020 and then measured. ...not DCI P3 but not flat out rec 709 either.
in that scenario it measured at R709 and a bit under on red. it looks ok by itself until comparing the same content at full P3 then it was obvious.

P3 support, full lens shift, good mechanical iris + 3D that isn't too much to ask from one of the manufacturers.

Did you keep the Vivitek?
DavidHir likes this.
zombie10k is offline  
post #86 of 643 Old 04-13-2018, 01:29 AM
AVS Forum Addicted Member
 
coderguy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 14,050
Mentioned: 62 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2436 Post(s)
Liked: 1320
4k does make a sizable difference for 2.35 content since you have to blow it up and you end up losing so much resolution on a big 2.35 screen.

I'm watching a 130" 2.35 from about 10' back I believe, yes I need 4k at times. For 16:9 content, I do not need it.
This equates to about a 105" 16:9 screen when I use lens memory. Sitting 10' back from 105" 16:9 it'd be hard to tell much difference, a tiny bit but nothing ground-breaking.

Anyhow, in the end, few people are prevented from owning 2 projectors if they really think that the 4k DLP's are so much better than the JVC in bright scenes.
I've seen a few 4k setups, none in my own HT room, but I don't think the difference is what people are portraying.

There is a big difference if you are gaming or need more brightness, then it can make sense to really NEED a 4k shifted DLP (though most have bad gaming lag).
Still though, a Native 4k projector would be even that much better.

A lot of the 4k content I've seen, the difference was in the disk itself, how it was mastered rather than the resolution.

However, on a 2.35 movie, yes it makes a much much bigger difference. I know many people are willing to pay $30-$50 movie, but I'm just NOT and I don't want the headache of reselling them on Ebay after watching it once. Overall, I'd still rather have the contrast if I had to pick one or another.

I don't want Native 4k with worse contrast (Sony), or better shifted 4k with worse contrast (DLP), or shifted 4k with $500 lamps (JVC)...
I want the real thing at a better price, and I'll keep waiting until it gets there.

**Updated Projector Calculator Released NOV 2017**
-- www.webprojectorcalculator.com --

Last edited by coderguy; 04-13-2018 at 01:40 AM.
coderguy is offline  
post #87 of 643 Old 04-13-2018, 03:20 AM
Advanced Member
 
Sam Ash's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 724
Mentioned: 6 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 408 Post(s)
Liked: 49
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave Harper View Post
Of course it really comes down to what you watch and need in a projector and its environment. I watch just as much sports and TV almost as I do movies, and most of those are now UHD HDR, so when I factor all that in, this thing has the most pluses vs its minuses, as I have listed already countless times. If I go back to a bat cave theater and only watch movies in it, then the choice would probably be different.
In a bat cave theatre, what would your choice be? Would the LK970 not adapt to such an environment by controlling the brightness of the projector ?

Have you managed to watch fast action sports on the LK970, does it have the usual judder without a CFI mechanism ?

Any more information on its dynamic contrast/ laser dimming approach ?
Sam Ash is offline  
post #88 of 643 Old 04-13-2018, 04:09 AM
 
Dave Harper's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2000
Location: Paradise on Earth
Posts: 6,554
Mentioned: 62 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3159 Post(s)
Liked: 1723
Quote:
Originally Posted by stanger89 View Post
And that's really what I'm getting at with my question. What do you watch mostly... If you watch a lot of, or mostly stuff like Planet Earth or The Grand Tour, etc (which I'd say sports and a lot of TV falls into), then I can absolutely understand how a really bright DLP would work great for that. That content plays well to what's always been DLP's strengths. The Grand Tour would look fantastic on something like my Planar 8150 but 2-5x as bright, and I could definitely understand giving up contrast for that.

For me though, the vast majority of the 4K HDR I have and have, have access to, and actually watch is content that has lots of very dark content, lots of sci-fi/action movies. Those fall apart for me if black isn't black. And while I understand that brightness biases our eyes to improve apparent contrast, but I'm still skeptical that even 2000:1 native (with no DI) at 5000 Lumens isn't going to have a terrible black level in something like the Ministry of Magic scenes in Harry Potter. I mean you're looking at a black level that's at least 30x higher than my Planar's and I already don't find that acceptable. Heck, I'm still skeptical I'd find an RS4500 acceptable, but at least that has a very good DI algorithm to aid it, and 5-10x the native contrast of these DLPs.

I'm not saying your wrong, I'm just trying to calibrate your report/thoughts/opinion to my own experiences. If we watch dramatically different content, as it seems we do, then that's a key factor for me to take into consideration. What I take away from your comments is that for bright, punchy HDR content, these bright laser pumped DLPs throw a great image, and for that type of content, the black level sacrifice isn't too bad.

I agree but what you're not taking into account is how different these are when using the laser phosphor light source and the dual phosphor and color wheels than standard lamps with single color wheels. I am saying that people keep trying to compare these laser models to the old DLPs and the cheap under $2000 XPR DLPs that use lamps still. That was my point.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sam Ash View Post
In a bat cave theatre, what would your choice be? Would the LK970 not adapt to such an environment by controlling the brightness of the projector ?



Have you managed to watch fast action sports on the LK970, does it have the usual judder without a CFI mechanism ?



Any more information on its dynamic contrast/ laser dimming approach ?

I find that question very hard to answer on which one I would choose because there are such positives and negatives with each one. I would say it more is down to what content you watch and whether it is mixed content or just movies. If it's just movies then I would use a Sony or JVC but if you also like to watch sports and TV and other SDR content like that then as I said again the positives far outweigh the negatives and yes I do mean even the black levels. I really do think that the Vivitek DK8500Z will balance this the best since it has native HDR support and laser dynamic dimming as well as 3-D.

I've watched some sports like rewatching the Super Bowl and my Eagles spanking some Brady and it was one of the most enjoyable experiences I've had, but for the content and the quality of the image.

I can't stand CFI.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aztar35 View Post
........



Dave:



Did you ever find out if the LK970 has dynamic dimming?

Have you yet had a chance to take a measurement of the black level on the LK970?

... measured the contrast?

No because BenQ absolutely sucks when it comes to responding to inquiries.

I think what I am seeing on the LK970 is the "feature" called "Constant Brightness" on the Viviteks, described here on page 40 of the DK8500Z manual:



I've taken some measurements but I am not posting anything because it is still a work in progress.

Quote:
Originally Posted by coderguy View Post
.......It doesn't bother me some people don't care about black levels as much, but I think a lot of the reason is purchase justification...

Well I think a lot of the reason is the content one watches and the fact that they have different views, feelings, thoughts and needs in this world than yours! If we all thought and felt the same, this world would really be boring and suck, don't you think?
Dave Harper is offline  
post #89 of 643 Old 04-13-2018, 04:47 AM
AVS Forum Addicted Member
 
stanger89's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Marion, IA
Posts: 23,130
Mentioned: 34 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4156 Post(s)
Liked: 2384
Quote:
Originally Posted by fleaman View Post
Yeah, there's the subjective taste thing going on too.

But also, there are those who want their PJ's to perform like flatpanels---bright and punchy. Then there are those who want their PJ's to perform like real (or reel!) PJ's in commercial theaters, which are down to the 16fl level, if not lower. Yeah you can adjust your PJ on the fly for contant...Low/Hi lamp, closed/opened iris, etc., but ultimately my RS57 isn't gonna throw out 2000+ lumens, and honestly in a dark lightless room, it would hurt my eyes at that level (I'm on a small screen).

I'm in the same boat as stranger89---I prefer my PJ to be more theater like, and mostly use it for just blu ray movies. I don't game...sports don't always look that great blown up, even with my cable HD feed---has more to do with the long camera shots---close ups look great, but most of the 'action' are long shots that just don't resolve well. I don't want to watch the news on the PJ, etc. So my flat panel is great for much of that general TV viewing stuff, which honestly isn't that cinematic (the content) to begin with. Though some TV shows are cinematic, so I fire up the PJ, but part of that cinematic look of these shows might have to do with the lower APL scenes than the typical reality show APL. So again, not needing 2000+ lumens to watch Mr. Robot!
Don't get me wrong, I like a bright punchy image, that's actually one of the things I like about my RS600, it's brighter than the Planar 8150 it replaced. I'd definitely love to have 3000 lumens on tap for HDR. I'm just not willing to give up 99% of my contrast for that. Especially not when most of the prime content I watch calls for deep, inky blacks.

And no, I'm not exaggerating, my RS600 can do ~80,000:1 native in my setup where as these XPR DLPs are more like 1000:1, that's a 98.75% difference.
stanger89 is offline  
post #90 of 643 Old 04-13-2018, 05:41 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
Ruined's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 6,822
Mentioned: 35 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2610 Post(s)
Liked: 1249
Quote:
Originally Posted by coderguy View Post
The VW bug was probably the best selling car in some city on some month of some year..
The uhd 65 has been in the #2- #3 spot consistently each month since it was widely available on that site, not just some month. The uhd 60 has also been on it consistently. UHZ65 being on it is more recent.

Quote:
Sales stats don't mean much, the best selling headphones in the world are probably the $20 ones Walmart sells, what does that mean?
It means they are selling. If the best projector company in the world can't sell projectors they will fold. See Oppo Digital.

Quote:
The best selling projector in this forum over $3000 is definitely not the UHZ-65...
This forum has a higher level of awareness than the rest of the buying population, and most will choose a JVC or Sony...

I wonder why, we all know why, black levels.
Groupthink. It's easier to be told what is best than to make your own assessment. If you look at the UHZ65 thread most owners are very happy and even a pro calibrator is a big fan of dlp laser.

Quote:
I think a lot of the reason is purchase justification ...
Like justifying spending $8000 on a 1080p eshift legacy lamp projector when you can get a 4k uhd laser projector for half the price?
Ruined is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Reply Digital Hi-End Projectors - $3,000+ USD MSRP

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page


Forum Jump: 

Posting Rules  
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off