When is the next line of 4k projectors comming? - Page 71 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #2101 of 3111 Old 08-11-2018, 09:03 AM
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Originally Posted by GregCh View Post
Yeah, but the biggest problem with this type of planning is that when you go HDR on the new scope movies then you will need a lot more brightness. Zooming out to fill a scope screen reduces the brightness of your projector.

In my case, I have the Sony 385. Most of the content I watch is 16:9 so I went with a 16:9 Cima Neve screen. Then when I play 4k ultra UHD HDR BD I get maximum brightness because I don't have to zoom out to fill the screen width. Of course, this means that I have to deal with black bars above and below the screen but honestly I never even notice them.

As for seating distance, I am at about 9 feet back from a 110" screen so the scope aspect ratio still fills immersive to me.
It all comes down to preferences. I am a CIH zoomer and for me, the pros far outweigh the cons. Everytime you go larger, there is a compromise but I have rather less brightness and larger screen vs more brightness and smaller screen. I wanted the widest image possible for my seating and room size and I still get about 32 ftL on my 1.0 gain, 9 foot wide screen with my RS440 which is not bad (dedicated black pit room). It's also been said before, but once you start masking there is no going back. One reason I didn't go 16x9 was because 16x9 movies felt too tall from my seating (9 to 9.5 feet back), but there were other reasons too.
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post #2102 of 3111 Old 08-11-2018, 09:11 AM
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Originally Posted by bobof View Post
I've gone 16:9 2 way electric masking (top / bottom) because that is all I can afford for now out of available funds. The side masking is comparatively very easy to add using electric curtains so I may do that later.

The thing is in the UK probably the most common dedicated room is a single garage converted into a room (like mine), and they're nearly always tiny (mine is <2.4m wide after soundproofing). You're usually left wanting a bit bigger scope screen than you can fit (there's a limit to how close you can sit with AT fabric), and if you go with a CIH screen when your width is already constrained then your 16:9 is really much, much too small.
Makes sense for sure. While I'm a big proponent of scope, I certainly dont think it's the right screen in every situation of course. Lots of variables between users, rooms, etc....

Along the lines of what your talking about, I run out of height before width in my room which made scope a no brainer in my particular setup since I get the same size 1.78 image either way, but a MUCH bigger scope image with my scope screen. If I had the opposite issue of running out of width before height, I would have most likely stayed with a 1.78.
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post #2103 of 3111 Old 08-11-2018, 09:14 AM
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Originally Posted by ARROW-AV View Post
Well the entry level 4x3 module 2.37:1 CIH 4K horizontal resolution configuration for The Wall Luxury is available for preorder for the bargain MSRP of only circa $265,000. And the 8x6 module 2.37:1 CIH 8K horizontal resolution configuration is only circa $1 million. You had better order yours quickly because at these prices they are likely to sell out very quickly...



LOL!!

EDIT: I dont think my truck drivers salary is going to cover this one!
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post #2104 of 3111 Old 08-11-2018, 09:29 AM
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Originally Posted by bobof View Post
I've gone 16:9 2 way electric masking (top / bottom) because that is all I can afford for now out of available funds. The side masking is comparatively very easy to add using electric curtains so I may do that later.

The thing is in the UK probably the most common dedicated room is a single garage converted into a room (like mine), and they're nearly always tiny (mine is <2.4m wide after soundproofing). You're usually left wanting a bit bigger scope screen than you can fit (there's a limit to how close you can sit with AT fabric), and if you go with a CIH screen when your width is already constrained then your 16:9 is really much, much too small.
What AT fabric are you using? I think one could sit as close as you like with a screen like V6.



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Well who cares about low contrast DLP either?

But that won't stop me paying a visit to to all the respective manufacturers with an impartial open mind with the hope that I will be pleasantly surprised!

Who knows, maybe EPSON will surprise with a successor to the EH-LS10500?

I agree. No reason not to stop in and see what is new.

I am curious about these LCDs. IIRC Epson said that LCD wouldn't scale to 4k and that was the reason they were going with LCOQ.
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post #2105 of 3111 Old 08-11-2018, 10:02 AM
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"3LCD" is the older LCD (not LCOS) based technology, though? Or does "3LCD" also include LCOS?
3LCD does not include Epson LCOQ technology, which is used in the LS10500.
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post #2106 of 3111 Old 08-11-2018, 10:16 AM
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Spoke to my contact at Sony today to see if I could add to what I've learned from JVC about what will be coming to IFA. Sony will have a model VW870 as a next step from the VW760. Word is better lens and also some lens options plus dual laser and finally a dynamic iris (could be dimming I think even). It's a pretty big jump towards RS4500 cost territory (exact price point in fact), not a true $20-$25K VW1100 price point replacement. Will be very interesting to see how it compares to the 4500.
Dual lasers? Is there any chance this projector will take advantage of that for passive 3D?
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post #2107 of 3111 Old 08-11-2018, 10:47 AM
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Originally Posted by madshi View Post
"3LCD" is the older LCD (not LCOS) based technology, though? Or does "3LCD" also include LCOS?
I am surprised Epson is talking about 3LCD tech as their higher end projectors are the 3 LCoQ projectors for which Epson own the patents.
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post #2108 of 3111 Old 08-11-2018, 11:08 AM
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Originally Posted by bobof View Post
I've gone 16:9 2 way electric masking (top / bottom) because that is all I can afford for now out of available funds. The side masking is comparatively very easy to add using electric curtains so I may do that later.

The thing is in the UK probably the most common dedicated room is a single garage converted into a room (like mine), and they're nearly always tiny (mine is <2.4m wide after soundproofing). You're usually left wanting a bit bigger scope screen than you can fit (there's a limit to how close you can sit with AT fabric), and if you go with a CIH screen when your width is already constrained then your 16:9 is really much, much too small.
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What AT fabric are you using? I think one could sit as close as you like with a screen like V6.
There are now numerous woven AT materials wherein you can sit as close as you like and you won't see the weave. Such as by Severtson, Screen Excellence, Seymour AV, DT Screens and Stewart Filmscreen, to name a few, in addition to the DreamScreen UltraWeave V6 PRO material that Eric mentions

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post #2109 of 3111 Old 08-11-2018, 11:09 AM
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Originally Posted by GregCh View Post
Yeah, but the biggest problem with this type of planning is that when you go HDR on the new scope movies then you will need a lot more brightness. Zooming out to fill a scope screen reduces the brightness of your projector.

In my case, I have the Sony 385. Most of the content I watch is 16:9 so I went with a 16:9 Cima Neve screen. Then when I play 4k ultra UHD HDR BD I get maximum brightness because I don't have to zoom out to fill the screen width. Of course, this means that I have to deal with black bars above and below the screen but honestly I never even notice them.

As for seating distance, I am at about 9 feet back from a 110" screen so the scope aspect ratio still fills immersive to me.
This is why I went with two screens - the 2.35:1 screen being 12" wider than my 16:9 Cima Neve, but it's also Studiotek 130 material, so it's a bit brighter than the Cima Neve. Now that I have the Panamorph DCR lens for scope, let's just say brightness is no longer an issue anyway.
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post #2110 of 3111 Old 08-11-2018, 11:13 AM
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Dual lasers? Is there any chance this projector will take advantage of that for passive 3D?
Whilst this is yet to be definitively confirmed, I think the dual laser relates to using a red laser diode in addition to a blue laser diode for providing the Red and Blue components of the RGB via direct laser, in combination with a green phosphor panel supplying the Green, as opposed to dual laser light source that can be used for 3D in that regard; in which case the answer would be no.

Where all current home theater/cinema laser projectors (except for the Barco Thor) operate via a singular blue laser diode wherein both the red and green components are synthesized via firing the blue laser via a yellow phosphor panel.
.

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post #2111 of 3111 Old 08-11-2018, 11:18 AM
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Originally Posted by Craig Peer View Post
This is why I went with two screens - the 2.35:1 screen being 12" wider than my 16:9 Cima Neve, but it's also Studiotek 130 material, so it's a bit brighter than the Cima Neve. Now that I have the Panamorph DCR lens for scope, let's just say brightness is no longer an issue anyway.
Now, now, no need to be showing off!

Your dual-screen setup is seriously cool though...
.
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post #2112 of 3111 Old 08-11-2018, 11:27 AM
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Originally Posted by Craig Peer View Post
This is why I went with two screens - the 2.35:1 screen being 12" wider than my 16:9 Cima Neve, but it's also Studiotek 130 material, so it's a bit brighter than the Cima Neve. Now that I have the Panamorph DCR lens for scope, let's just say brightness is no longer an issue anyway.
So how are your screens mounted? Do they both drop down from the ceiling or do you have one wall mounted fixed screen and one drop down screen?

Sounds like a really nice setup.
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post #2113 of 3111 Old 08-11-2018, 11:30 AM
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Whilst this is yet to be definitively confirmed, I think the dual laser relates to using a red laser diode in addition to a blue laser diode for providing the Red and Blue components of the RGB via direct laser, in combination with a green phosphor panel supplying the Green, as opposed to dual laser light source that can be used for 3D in that regard; in which case the answer would be no.

Where all current home theater/cinema laser projectors (except for the Barco Thor) operate via a singular blue laser diode wherein both the red and green components are synthesized via firing the blue laser via a yellow phosphor panel.
.
If this indeed true then this should be one of the first Sony's which can accurately reproduce a very large color space. Maybe not full BT2020 but at least full P3.

I wonder what the lumen output will be?

All too rich for my blood but it sounds like a real winner!
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post #2114 of 3111 Old 08-11-2018, 11:31 AM
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Originally Posted by Craig Peer View Post
This is why I went with two screens - the 2.35:1 screen being 12" wider than my 16:9 Cima Neve, but it's also Studiotek 130 material, so it's a bit brighter than the Cima Neve. Now that I have the Panamorph DCR lens for scope, let's just say brightness is no longer an issue anyway.
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So how are your screens mounted? Do they both drop down from the ceiling or do you have one wall mounted fixed screen and one drop down screen?

Sounds like a really nice setup.
It is a really nice setup. @Craig Peer post some photos will you?
.
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post #2115 of 3111 Old 08-11-2018, 11:36 AM
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So how are your screens mounted? Do they both drop down from the ceiling or do you have one wall mounted fixed screen and one drop down screen?

Sounds like a really nice setup.
Both electric, back to back, mounted on a soffit I built. There is a sliding glass door behind the screen that needs to be accessed rarely. If it was just a wall, I would have gone with one fixed and one electric.

I have a full house tonight to watch " Ready Player One " in 4K - should be fun !
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post #2116 of 3111 Old 08-11-2018, 11:36 AM
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Originally Posted by ARROW-AV View Post
It is a really nice setup. @Craig Peer post some photos will you?

.


I hope JVC has solved the incredibly slow HDMI switching with these new projectors. I like to watch trailers on Apple TV 4K and it takes about 4 seconds every time I go from the trailer to the ATV menu screen. 4 seconds is an eternity when I want to sit down and watch 10 trailers.


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post #2117 of 3111 Old 08-11-2018, 11:36 AM
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I am surprised Epson is talking about 3LCD tech as their higher end projectors are the 3 LCoQ projectors for which Epson own the patents.
I've always questioned how well their LS LCoQ have sold.
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post #2118 of 3111 Old 08-11-2018, 12:03 PM
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Both electric, back to back, mounted on a soffit I built. There is a sliding glass door behind the screen that needs to be accessed rarely. If it was just a wall, I would have gone with one fixed and one electric.

I have a full house tonight to watch " Ready Player One " in 4K
- should be fun !
I watched that for the first time last night. You guys are in for a treat, that movie is a whole load of fun in itelf, let alone on a home theater such as yours.

That's going to look and sound amazing. I am just going to say: "the car race with King Kong" and leave it there...

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post #2119 of 3111 Old 08-11-2018, 12:06 PM
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What AT fabric are you using? I think one could sit as close as you like with a screen like V6.
The one I can get for free (lol). I won a raffle and the dealer promoting it managed to get a really good deal to get a Screen Research Clearpix4K with black backing ETC Supreme e-mask screen into the prize fund budget.
(http://www.screenresearch.com/websit...b_May_2016.pdf)

I'll be around 9ft away from the surface. It's still waiting to be installed.
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post #2120 of 3111 Old 08-11-2018, 12:08 PM
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Originally Posted by GregCh View Post
If this indeed true then this should be one of the first Sony's which can accurately reproduce a very large color space. Maybe not full BT2020 but at least full P3.

I wonder what the lumen output will be?

All too rich for my blood but it sounds like a real winner!
I have to say it's pretty ironic that I said this earlier in this thread:

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Something that I don't believe has been discussed yet is the evolution from 1st generation to 2nd generation home cinema/theater laser projectors.

Currently, all home cinema/theater laser projectors (except for the Barco Thor) are singular blue laser through yellow phosphor, via which the red and the green components are synthesized.

I have seen over the course of the past 24 months some prototypes and new digital cinema projectors that are dual red and blue laser, and create only the green via a phosphor panel. This has numerous advantages as compared with singular blue laser, including the potential to deliver much of the chroma performance of 3P RGB laser but at a fraction of the price...

So what I would love to see is some home theater/cinema projectors making use of dual laser in this regard.

The only projectors capable of 100% of BT.2020 ar 6P RGB laser projectors wherein these actually use TWO lasers for each of the Red, Green, and Blue, with differing wavelengths for each colour so as to achieve a wider wavelength coverage for all of red, green, and, blue.

So with respect to dual red and blue laser, plus green phosphor, we should expect a significant proportion of the performance of 3P RGB laser, but at a fraction of the price.

A big issue with respect to the singular blue laser through yellow phosphor projectors is achieving good coverage of DCI-P3 whilst at the same time having both the primaries and secondaries accurately track BT.2020

This is why DCI-P3 coverage in itself is incomplete information. It's possible to have one projector have a higher percentage coverage of DCI-P3 than another projector, but the other projector to produce superior chroma performance if the former doesn't track the BT.2020 primaries and secondaries as well.

With singular blue laser through yellow phosphor projectors it is either the case that you need to use aggressive BT.2020 colour filters which hammer luminance, or less aggressive filters that reduce luminance less but which fail to achieve 100% of DCI-P3 let alone BT.2020, or opt to have no filter, as per with respect to the SONY 885/760 for example, wherein again these fail to achieve 100% of DCI-P3, and typically won't track BT.2020 as well as when filters are used.

Also, when no filters are used it is often the case that the red component is maxed out to the extent that it is on the threshold of clipping, as is the case with respect to the SONY 885/760, which makes accurately calibrating the projector to D65 white point without losing a lot of light output a nightmare.

With dual red and blue laser plus green phosphor, the benefits should be all of:

(1) Significantly increased and accurate coverage of both DCI-P3 and BT.2020;

(2) Either no need for BT.2020 colour filter, or significantly less aggressive filter(s) which reduce luminance to a far lesser degree;

(3) Able to accurately calibrate to D65 without losing as much light ouput/luminance;

(4) Superior chroma performance in more ways than one;

(5) Increased light ouput / luminance, although with the addition is red laser this probably won't be a large increase



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post #2121 of 3111 Old 08-11-2018, 12:20 PM
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Both electric, back to back, mounted on a soffit I built. There is a sliding glass door behind the screen that needs to be accessed rarely. If it was just a wall, I would have gone with one fixed and one electric.

I have a full house tonight to watch " Ready Player One " in 4K - should be fun !
So is that something like a CIA setup?
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post #2122 of 3111 Old 08-11-2018, 12:36 PM
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There are now numerous woven AT materials wherein you can sit as close as you like and you won't see the weave. Such as by Severtson, Screen Excellence, Seymour AV, DT Screens and Stewart Filmscreen, to name a few, in addition to the DreamScreen UltraWeave V6 PRO material that Eric mentions

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The one I can get for free (lol). I won a raffle and the dealer promoting it managed to get a really good deal to get a Screen Research Clearpix4K with black backing ETC Supreme e-mask screen into the prize fund budget.
(http://www.screenresearch.com/websit...b_May_2016.pdf)

I'll be around 9ft away from the surface. It's still waiting to be installed.
Well, you can't beat free especially if it is a good screen. I am not sure if I have seen that one, so I can't comment on it.

I have seen Screen Excellence/Seymour, DT and V6. They are excellent screens and one should be able to sit at any distance.

I have mentioned this before, but at Cedia '11 Seymour blew my mind. I thought his first AT screen was ok, but one needed to sit probably 10 or more feet away. I thought the same of perf screens. I really didn't care that much for them. Then I walked by his booth that year and he had a screen on display. I walked up to it with another member from here and we thought it looked like an ok solid screen. Chris says "That is AT". I was shocked. That was the day I thought one didn't have to compromise to go AT.
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post #2123 of 3111 Old 08-11-2018, 01:31 PM
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Quit watching movies and get on the forum people... Join me in my pain... My Marantz 8805 HDMI board just died and on the weekend that I will receive Avengers: Infinity War

At least I am going out of the country on business for two weeks later in the month. I hope Marantz gets this paper weight fixed soon. First my HDMI input 1 went out and then the entire board went out after Marantz totally screwed up the last firmware update. It's causing all kinds of havoc with 8805 owners. Sometimes I wonder if they actually took the time to do any testing before releasing it to us poor suckers.

Looks like I might move to a Trinnov Altitude 16. I really miss all of the control over PEQ that my Datasat LS10 had... but that will take my immediate cash I had stored away in my sock for a new uber, laser, diamond lens, graphene enhanced super projector that may still need reality creation version 2.32 to look sharp (just a small jab to the Sony owners )
That reminds me I need to order Avengrrs infinity war......

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post #2124 of 3111 Old 08-11-2018, 03:51 PM
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Originally Posted by bobof View Post
So is that something like a CIA setup?
Sort of. It's what I consider the optimum size 16:9 for my theater, and the widest 2.35:1 screen I could use with my throw distance. The best of both worlds. Also, the scope screen is slightly higher gain which nearly offsets the light loss from zooming ( in theory anyway ). Plus, 2 electric screens can cost a lot less than one electric screen with electric masking. Been using 2 electric screens pretty much from the beginning. I got into this whole crazy hobby because I got a free 120" 16:9 electric Da Lite screen off a job site 17 years ago !
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post #2125 of 3111 Old 08-11-2018, 04:00 PM
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@ARROW-AV The NEW Sony sounds like it could be a real winner this time....It will be VERY interesting to see just how it will compare to the Z1/RS4500..
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post #2126 of 3111 Old 08-11-2018, 04:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by woofer View Post
@ARROW-AV The NEW Sony sounds like it could be a real winner this time....It will be VERY interesting to see just how it will compare to the Z1/RS4500..
Agreed. And the addition of reality creation will bring it over the top of the RS4500/Z1
(Had to say it)
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post #2127 of 3111 Old 08-11-2018, 05:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by madshi View Post
That makes sense, but who cares about low contrast LCD, honestly?
Depends on which contrast works for the preferred viewing material. A good LCD will rival high end DLP’s for ANSI contrast but with decent native contrast; a feature that is invaluable to some viewers. I just love the rec 709 image from my lowly Epson 6040ub and will swap it in a heartbeat for another 3LCD with decent light output in P3 mode.
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post #2128 of 3111 Old 08-11-2018, 06:52 PM
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2.00:1 Screen

Hello Folks,

Hope you are all well.

I split the difference and I really have enjoyed it. Went with a 2.00:1 screen so 2.37:1 content is wider than my 1.78:1 content, and the 1.78:1 and 4:3 content are able to be taller. The screen is full width that fits in the room, and I did not like the limited height of a 2.37:1 screen with non-scope content.

What made this even better is that Star Trek Discovery is filmed in 2.00:1 filling the whole screen, which is very impressive and very immersive. I hope they come out with more 2.00:1 content, I really like that format.

Later,

Tony

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Originally Posted by Toe View Post
I'm with you Arrow and sign me up for the 2.37 version as well when prices come down to earth! AT is not an option in my room and I've always had a below the screen center which I'm totally fine with so these not being AT is a complete and total non issue for me.

I've owned both 1.78 and 2.35 screens and MUCH prefer my scope screen overall and all things considered. I always HATED seeing scope films become smaller on a 1.78 screen which is the exact opposite of the way those are intended to be seen. The vast majority of all my favorite movies happen to be scope so makes sense for me to present those in the best possible light.

If I were to ever build a new home and HT though I would either look into dual screens (both 1.78 and scope) or do a CIA screen with 4 way masking. That would be fantastic!
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post #2129 of 3111 Old 08-11-2018, 06:55 PM
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When is the next line of 4k projectors comming?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tony~M View Post
Hello Folks,



Hope you are all well.



I split the difference and I really have enjoyed it. Went with a 2.00:1 screen so 2.37:1 content is wider than my 1.78:1 content, and the 1.78:1 and 4:3 content are able to be taller. The screen is full width that fits in the room, and I did not like the limited height of a 2.37:1 screen with non-scope content.



What made this even better is that Star Trek Discovery is filmed in 2.00:1 filling the whole screen, which is very impressive and very immersive. I hope they come out with more 2.00:1 content, I really like that format.



Later,



Tony

Seems like too much of a compromise for 95% of the movies for me but glad you are happy with it. I really need a second, drop down, 16x9 Nolan screen for all those stupid variable aspect films he makes


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post #2130 of 3111 Old 08-11-2018, 07:25 PM
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Well I don't have any more height or width left to the room! So, not a compromise in my situation. Screen is wall to wall and from 29" up from the floor to 4" from the ceiling. Screen is biggest I could fit in the room with speakers below it.

Yeah, those variable aspect ratio movies made me contemplate a floor to ceiling AT screen, I have about 12" inches of overshoot on those if I am displaying it at 2.35:1, about 6" above and 6" below the screen. I almost thought about having a curved portion onto the ceiling and overshoot just 12" onto the ceiling. I wonder what that would look like? I did not like the 6" above and below, so I lens shift the image so all of the bottom fits and just overshoot the top, not too bad, since it is usually tops of building etc in the top part, don't really miss it.

Screen is 11ft wide by 5ft6in high. Gaining the extra height for 4:3 content TV shows is really nice, same for HDTV. An 11ft wide 2.35:1 screen felt too height restricted for HDTV and 4:3 content, only a 4ft7in height made the screen seem very small, compared with having that exra foot with the 2.00:1 screen.

I enjoy watching Classic Star Trek, etc...on the 2.00:1 screen, on the 2.35:1 it felt much too small.

I have not compromised width, since I can't go wider, only way to go taller would be to go AT and put speaker behind it.

Later,

Tony



Quote:
Originally Posted by farsider3000 View Post
Seems like too much of a compromise for 95% of the movies for me but glad you are happy with it. I really need a second, drop down, 16x9 Nolan screen for all those stupid variable aspect films he makes


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