When is the next line of 4k projectors comming? - Page 72 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #2131 of 3111 Old 08-11-2018, 08:28 PM
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Originally Posted by Craig Peer View Post
Both electric, back to back, mounted on a soffit I built. There is a sliding glass door behind the screen that needs to be accessed rarely. If it was just a wall, I would have gone with one fixed and one electric.

I have a full house tonight to watch " Ready Player One " in 4K - should be fun !
Cool. I loved RP1. I am a gamer from the 80's so it fits my age bracket and interests It looks very good in the VR segments but the film parts can get quite grainy in some of the lower light shots. Soundtrack was cool and I loved the race scene with King Kong smashing through the city. That was low frequency bliss in my theater!
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post #2132 of 3111 Old 08-11-2018, 08:37 PM
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Originally Posted by ARROW-AV View Post
There are now numerous woven AT materials wherein you can sit as close as you like and you won't see the weave. Such as by Severtson, Screen Excellence, Seymour AV, DT Screens and Stewart Filmscreen, to name a few, in addition to the DreamScreen UltraWeave V6 PRO material that Eric mentions

The Seymour at fabric is excellent. And isn't it washable, Just incase?

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post #2133 of 3111 Old 08-11-2018, 11:30 PM
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Originally Posted by ARROW-AV View Post
I have to say it's pretty ironic that I said this earlier in this thread:



The only projectors capable of 100% of BT.2020 ar 6P RGB laser projectors wherein these actually use TWO lasers for each of the Red, Green, and Blue, with differing wavelengths for each colour so as to achieve a wider wavelength coverage for all of red, green, and, blue.

So with respect to dual red and blue laser, plus green phosphor, we should expect a significant proportion of the performance of 3P RGB laser, but at a fraction of the price.

A big issue with respect to the singular blue laser through yellow phosphor projectors is achieving good coverage of DCI-P3 whilst at the same time having both the primaries and secondaries accurately track BT.2020

This is why DCI-P3 coverage in itself is incomplete information. It's possible to have one projector have a higher percentage coverage of DCI-P3 than another projector, but the other projector to produce superior chroma performance if the former doesn't track the BT.2020 primaries and secondaries as well.

With singular blue laser through yellow phosphor projectors it is either the case that you need to use aggressive BT.2020 colour filters which hammer luminance, or less aggressive filters that reduce luminance less but which fail to achieve 100% of DCI-P3 let alone BT.2020, or opt to have no filter, as per with respect to the SONY 885/760 for example, wherein again these fail to achieve 100% of DCI-P3, and typically won't track BT.2020 as well as when filters are used.

Also, when no filters are used it is often the case that the red component is maxed out to the extent that it is on the threshold of clipping, as is the case with respect to the SONY 885/760, which makes accurately calibrating the projector to D65 white point without losing a lot of light output a nightmare.

With dual red and blue laser plus green phosphor, the benefits should be all of:

(1) Significantly increased and accurate coverage of both DCI-P3 and BT.2020;

(2) Either no need for BT.2020 colour filter, or significantly less aggressive filter(s) which reduce luminance to a far lesser degree;

(3) Able to accurately calibrate to D65 without losing as much light ouput/luminance;

(4) Superior chroma performance in more ways than one;

(5) Increased light ouput / luminance


Did any of these prototypes you saw have the ability to do passive 3D like the 6P lasers?
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post #2134 of 3111 Old 08-12-2018, 03:27 AM
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The Seymour at fabric is excellent. And isn't it washable, Just incase?
Yes it is. Hence so is Screen Excellence also, given the materials are the same

And you will find that the Severtson, Stewart Filmscreen, and DreamScreen UltraWeave V6 PRO materials are washable as well.

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Did any of these prototypes you saw have the ability to do passive 3D like the 6P lasers?
Yes, one of them did. However, that was a prototype D-Cinema projector.


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post #2135 of 3111 Old 08-12-2018, 03:45 AM
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Originally Posted by woofer View Post
@ARROW-AV The NEW Sony sounds like it could be a real winner this time....It will be VERY interesting to see just how it will compare to the Z1/RS4500..
Well, I have to say I am extremely excited about the new SONY 870/???ES dual laser projector

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Agreed. And the addition of reality creation will bring it over the top of the RS4500/Z1
(Had to say it)
Well, I've already pre-ordered it and I will be carrying out an impartial comprehensive in-depth objective scientific evaluation and review of it, which will include comprehensive direct comparisions versus both the SONY 760/885ES and JVC RS4500/Z1, with some blind testing, and the full array of measurements etc. So let's see how it performs comparatively, eh?

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post #2137 of 3111 Old 08-12-2018, 05:30 AM
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Hello Folks,

Hope you are all well.

I split the difference and I really have enjoyed it. Went with a 2.00:1 screen so 2.37:1 content is wider than my 1.78:1 content, and the 1.78:1 and 4:3 content are able to be taller. The screen is full width that fits in the room, and I did not like the limited height of a 2.37:1 screen with non-scope content.

What made this even better is that Star Trek Discovery is filmed in 2.00:1 filling the whole screen, which is very impressive and very immersive. I hope they come out with more 2.00:1 content, I really like that format.

Later,

Tony
2.00:1 is really nice. I recently watched Jurassic world again and it was filmed like that.

What I'm surprised about is how so many of you don't use an electric 1.78:1 screen with an electric roller blind mounted at the front (all hid within the roof).

That way the screen drops from the stars for those 1.78:1 Nolan movies and the roller blind drops to cater for all other aspect ratios be it 2.00:1, 2.35:1 or even those really wide cinemascope ratios seen in la la land and hateful eight.

That's the setup I have and would never ever do it another way. Bare in mind I couldn't go any wider even if I did go scope screen.

I'm left with 136" for 1.78:1 and 128" for 2.35:1.

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post #2138 of 3111 Old 08-12-2018, 06:55 AM
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Originally Posted by ARROW-AV View Post
Yes it is. Hence so is Screen Excellence also, given the materials are the same

And you will find that the Severtson, Stewart Filmscreen, and DreamScreen UltraWeave V6 PRO materials are washable as well.


Yes, one of them did. However, that was a prototype D-Cinema projector.

Materials are not the same. They are completely different. Seymour AV is the US manufacturer for Screen Excellence, but the screen product offerings are completely different.
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post #2139 of 3111 Old 08-12-2018, 07:15 AM
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Materials are not the same. They are completely different. Seymour AV is the US manufacturer for Screen Excellence, but the screen product offerings are completely different.
Are you sure? Because I thought that they simply had different labels/names for at least some of the same materials; wherein there seems to be a number of instances where the technical data is essentially identical?
.
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post #2140 of 3111 Old 08-12-2018, 09:28 AM
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Originally Posted by ARROW-AV View Post
Yes it is. Hence so is Screen Excellence also, given the materials are the same

And you will find that the Severtson, Stewart Filmscreen, and DreamScreen UltraWeave V6 PRO materials are washable as well.


Yes, one of them did. However, that was a prototype D-Cinema projector.

Well, I have been considering a Barco high contrast 6P laser projector for the theater in the new house I am building. I want it mainly because I am a 3D maniac. I am not happy about the price. If I can get similar performance for a lower price I might be all over that unnamed prototype.

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Are you sure? Because I thought that they simply had different labels/names for at least some of the same materials; wherein there seems to be a number of instances where the technical data is essentially identical?
.
Some of the materials are the same.
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post #2142 of 3111 Old 08-12-2018, 09:41 AM
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Cool. I loved RP1. I am a gamer from the 80's so it fits my age bracket and interests It looks very good in the VR segments but the film parts can get quite grainy in some of the lower light shots. Soundtrack was cool and I loved the race scene with King Kong smashing through the city. That was low frequency bliss in my theater!
The movie was better the 2nd time around for me. My wife ( seeing it for the first time ) actually played the game that unlocks the last key. She got a total kick out of that part. She hadn't thought about that game for 30 years ! There is something in this film for kids of all ages, and some great one liners. It looks freak'n awesome on my StudioTek 130 at 47 foot lamberts on my RS4500 !
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post #2143 of 3111 Old 08-12-2018, 10:41 AM
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Are you sure? Because I thought that they simply had different labels/names for at least some of the same materials; wherein there seems to be a number of instances where the technical data is essentially identical?
I was told when I looked into it - as I found the whole Seymour Screen Excellence / Seymour AV thing very confusing, not least the pricing disparity - that the latest Screen Excellence fabric is a couple of years newer than the latest Seymour AV offering. Also that the mechanical makeup of the screens is very different.

I understand Center Stage UF is the latest Seymour AV fabric and Enlightor Neo the latest Screen Excellence. The audio insertion loss is specified a bit higher for UF (-2.2dB vs <-1dB).
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post #2144 of 3111 Old 08-12-2018, 11:34 AM
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I think Chris wanted to move into a different market segment with Enlightor screens. Not really that confusing to me, as it is just two product families.

Having fun playing the new mobile game Volley Village
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post #2145 of 3111 Old 08-12-2018, 11:53 AM
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The movie was better the 2nd time around for me. My wife ( seeing it for the first time ) actually played the game that unlocks the last key. She got a total kick out of that part. She hadn't thought about that game for 30 years ! There is something in this film for kids of all ages, and some great one liners. It looks freak'n awesome on my StudioTek 130 at 47 foot lamberts on my RS4500 !
There were parts of the movie I liked, but too much of it that I overly despised (thought the acting and writing was bordering on horrid).
I played 'adventure' as a kid on an Atari 2600, and I had found the hidden key when I was 5 years old, but I am not sure I ever knew what to do with it.

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post #2146 of 3111 Old 08-12-2018, 11:56 AM
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I think Chris wanted to move into a different market segment with Enlightor screens. Not really that confusing to me, as it is just two product families.
The confusing thing (for someone who buys a screen hardly ever and isn't all over the industry) is the use by the two outfits of the Seymour name.

Naturally when I started looking into AT screens, from the various forums the Seymour name came up frequently. As an end user trying to then actually find the products, the typical thing you'd first do (google "seymour projection screen") you come across both companies; occasionally I'd end up on the SAV site confused about why products I'd been looking at with the Seymour name on weren't there (because of course I'd seen them on the SSE site), and vice-versa.

And which Seymour products had I been reading about in the forums? (now of course I've worked out they were mostly Seymour AV). Everyone on the forums is generally raving about the SAV screens which seem positively economical compared to the pricing I've seem on SSE screens; so when discussing SSE screen pricing with a dealer and having the (publicly available) SAV pricing in mind a natural question is "what am I getting over SAV here?". And it's not very clear.

I honestly can't help but think that separate branding without Seymour in common would be less ambiguous. But they've clearly thought about it and the pros for them seem to outweigh the cons (otherwise they'd do different) so who am I to tell them... :-p
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post #2147 of 3111 Old 08-12-2018, 12:06 PM
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The cost of namebrand screens are ridiculous, given the actual cost of manufacturing them is relatively low.

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The cost of namebrand screens are ridiculous, given the actual cost of manufacturing them is relatively low.
I don't have a problem with the costs to be honest.

Everyone has to make a buck; I reckon making screens is a reasonable way to make a buck but I doubt it is as big a money spinner as we might think.

Most of them are effectively built to order as they don't really like sitting around manufactured but in packaging and there are too many combinations to make stocking feasible; transporting these things is a ball-ache (my small 80-inch wide e-mask Screen Research came in 3 2.4m long crates from Poland, total shipped weight 90 kilos). I would imagine there are more than a few replacement surfaces given out for minor manufacturing issues or assembly mishaps. Attending trade shows doesn't get any cheaper because your product has a low material cost, etc.

Someone somewhere will be sharpening their pencils and thinking carefully about how big the projection market it and how much money can be made out of it. At the end of the day the folk who want to make a screen for $100 can do, and if the high-end screen were $1000 vs $4000 they probably still wouldn't buy it, so there is little incentive to go chasing the bottom of the market.
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post #2149 of 3111 Old 08-12-2018, 01:05 PM
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The cost of namebrand screens are ridiculous, given the actual cost of manufacturing them is relatively low.
Agree but you don't know how much I miss Carada. As far I can tell, there are not too many companies in the market right now that makes GREAT quality and AFFORDABLE screens like David Giles used to built. Carada Classic Cinema White was for years the only screen material close enough to compite with StudioTek 100. After 8 years, my 92" Carada Criterion Classic Cinema White screen still looks gorgeous with whatever you put on it. I was lucky enough to get from David a replacement screen material just 3 weeks before he went out of business. It's in storage (properly climate) and ready to go up as soon I upgrade my current projector.
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Originally Posted by ARROW-AV View Post
Are you sure? Because I thought that they simply had different labels/names for at least some of the same materials; wherein there seems to be a number of instances where the technical data is essentially identical?
.
Yes, 100% sure. I have owned and used screens from both. I also have all of their screen samples. They are not the same products. Also attachment is even different. Seymour AV uses grommets and O-rings to attach the AT fabrics to the frame, while Screen Excellence uses a grip rail. You can't even use a grommet system for attachment of EN4K to a frame, it just does not work well.
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The cost of namebrand screens are ridiculous, given the actual cost of manufacturing them is relatively low.
Stewart Filmscreens are made in American, by Americans. I've toured the factory and took a class there. They aren't that cheap to make. Of course it all depends on if you want good quality. We are living in a world where a $5000.00 carbon fiber bicycle is considered " mid priced " after all.
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post #2152 of 3111 Old 08-12-2018, 01:37 PM
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Agree but you don't know how much I miss Carada. As far I can tell, there are not too many companies in the market right now that makes GREAT quality and AFFORDABLE screens like David Giles used to built. Carada Classic Cinema White was for years the only screen material close enough to compite with StudioTek 100. After 8 years, my 92" Carada Criterion Classic Cinema White screen still looks gorgeous with whatever you put on it. I was lucky enough to get from David a replacement screen material just 3 weeks before he went out of business. It's in storage (properly climate) and ready to go up as soon I upgrade my current projector.
Right, Carada sold their screens cheap but now they are no longer in business (at least with screens).
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Stewart Filmscreens are made in American, by Americans. I've toured the factory and took a class there. They aren't that cheap to make. Of course it all depends on if you want good quality. We are living in a world where a $5000.00 carbon fiber bicycle is considered " mid priced " after all.
Agreed and screens are not something you're going to probably swap out very often. I've had my ST100 for four years and it's not going anywhere until I eventually move (years away) and get a larger ST100 for a bigger theater room.
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post #2154 of 3111 Old 08-12-2018, 01:44 PM
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Originally Posted by enricoclaudio View Post
Agree but you don't know how much I miss Carada. As far I can tell, there are not too many companies in the market right now that makes GREAT quality and AFFORDABLE screens like David Giles used to built. Carada Classic Cinema White was for years the only screen material close enough to compite with StudioTek 100. After 8 years, my 92" Carada Criterion Classic Cinema White screen still looks gorgeous with whatever you put on it. I was lucky enough to get from David a replacement screen material just 3 weeks before he went out of business. It's in storage (properly climate) and ready to go up as soon I upgrade my current projector.
Elunevision makes some stuff that is basically the same.

For even less, there is Carl's Flexiwhite and Ultrawhite, it has no texture and looks fine.
The only issues is neither are as color neutral.

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post #2155 of 3111 Old 08-12-2018, 01:46 PM
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Stewart Filmscreens are made in American, by Americans. I've toured the factory and took a class there. They aren't that cheap to make. Of course it all depends on if you want good quality. We are living in a world where a $5000.00 carbon fiber bicycle is considered " mid priced " after all.
Compared to what they charge, they are cheap to make. I understand it is a low volume product, that's why.
The high-end screen market is a very low volume business, but even then, the markups are extraordinary for what essentially amounts to as a piece of fabric.

With most things, markups are based on the level of engineering something required or the complexity of it, in screens it is just all over the place and random.

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Originally Posted by enricoclaudio View Post
Agree but you don't know how much I miss Carada. As far I can tell, there are not too many companies in the market right now that makes GREAT quality and AFFORDABLE screens like David Giles used to built. Carada Classic Cinema White was for years the only screen material close enough to compite with StudioTek 100. After 8 years, my 92" Carada Criterion Classic Cinema White screen still looks gorgeous with whatever you put on it. I was lucky enough to get from David a replacement screen material just 3 weeks before he went out of business. It's in storage (properly climate) and ready to go up as soon I upgrade my current projector.
Carada's markup was too low. That is why they are no longer in business. The screen business was less profitable than the belt business, so they shut down the screen business and put all of their assets toward the belt business.
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Originally Posted by coderguy View Post
Compared to what they charge, they are cheap to make. I understand it is a low volume product, that's why.
The high-end screen market is a very low volume business, but even then, the markups are extraordinary for what essentially amounts to as a piece of fabric.

With most things, markups are based on the level of engineering something required or the complexity of it, in screens it is just all over the place and random.
You need to go visit the factory or see how Stewart manufacturer's screens. It is expensive when spraying multiple optic coatings onto a large fabric. That is one thing that differentiates Stewart from other manufacturers. None of the cheap screens use any optical coatings. So the gain is just what ever the base material gain is. Also that is why when I read gains above 1.0, I am very skeptical.
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post #2158 of 3111 Old 08-12-2018, 02:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by coderguy View Post
Compared to what they charge, they are cheap to make. I understand it is a low volume product, that's why.
The high-end screen market is a very low volume business, but even then, the markups are extraordinary for what essentially amounts to as a piece of fabric.

With most things, markups are based on the level of engineering something required or the complexity of it, in screens it is just all over the place and random.
I don't think this is an accurate comment. A quality screen is not cheap to make. To get the proper performance and specifications takes a great deal of engineering. It isn't just fabric strung on a frame. I have seen video tours of Stewart Filmscreen and it's pretty impressive. These people have been in business a long time and have been constantly trying to improve their product and tailor it to all kinds of markets. They take great pride in their family business and provide an excellent product for the price.

It's easy to say that everyone is taking huge mark ups on the price of their products but most times that isn't the case. Usually you get what you pay for.
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post #2159 of 3111 Old 08-12-2018, 02:43 PM
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I purchased a Carada Brilliant White which according to Accucal is 1.04, not 1.4 which I'm fine with. I paid about $1,000 for it and I'm very happy with the screen. I bought it when my son was very little and I was scared to death he was going to think it was a blank canvas so Carada was a perfect blend of high quality, affordable, and affordable to replace in case of accident material. 2 Carada's were about $2,000 and 2 Stewarts were going to be closer to $7,000. Considering it seemed about 50/50 there was going to be damage it was an easy decision. It's been a great screen and completely invisible when projected on. If he were still in business I would have no issue recommending this screen to others.
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post #2160 of 3111 Old 08-12-2018, 03:02 PM
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Stewart screens are worth the $$$ in my experience. I've owned Severtsen, multiple Carada screens, 2 Stewart's and my current Da lite 2.8 and I wouldn't hesitate to pay for another Stewart if I ever move away from Da lite. Stewart and Da lite were much better vs the other two for me.
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