NEW JVC RS3000/NX9 RS2000/N7 RS1000/N5 Native 4K Projectors Anticipation Thread - Page 11 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #301 of 13653 Old 08-20-2018, 03:32 PM
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Originally Posted by Craig Peer View Post
I love great blacks, but not at the expense of all other picture qualities, which would be the case moving back to an RS640. Show me how you can run an RS640 on something like a 135" StudioTek 130 scope screen ( or say a even larger AT screen with less than unity gain, which many people have ) with 400 hours on the lamp watching 4K HDR and have a bright HDR picture without having the iris nearly wide open or completely wide open. I've had forum members over to see my RS4500 that own RS540's. Their comments have been " the blacks don't look any different in this scene than on my RS540 ". Laser dimming does work great - better than any mechanical iris I've had. And watching 4K HDR scope films now at 45+ foot lamberts on my screen has moved the bar even further from my old RS600 and VW600. Deep blacks are great, but anything under 18 foot lamberts for SDR and 35 foot lamberts for HDR is unacceptable IMO. Too dim.

I might find one scene every 10 or 15 movies where I wish I had the contrast of the RS640. I honestly think the shadow detail is better overall on the RS4500 than my RS600 though. So when I weight the pros and cons, the RS4500 wins every time - lower native contrast or not. John Wick 4 on 4K HDR, Deadpool 4K HDR, Star trek, Star Wars, they all look great. Hopefully the technology in the RS4500 trickles down to less expensive laser projectors in the future.
I need great blacks and if it's at the expense of most other features, then so be it. I'm not interested in HDR. So that helps a ton. I simply use MadVR and tone map all HDR to SDR so it still looks great, but doesn't require 1000 nits to do so. HDR on the RS4500 is probably good but nowhere near what it should be or what it looks like on an OLED TV. My RS500, before I sold it, had 3000 hours on the bulb, and it still looked like new. I measured it at 1270 lumens low lamp, 1750 high lamp, which is extremely close to spec on a new bulb. So the 400 hours in argument falls on deaf ears to me. Modern JVC bulbs at 400 hours are almost like new.

Again, if owners of RS540 or RS640's don't like pumping and turn off dynamic iris, then the RS4500 is going to be closer in blacks. I hear plenty of owners complaining about the pumping and recommending disabling the dynamic iris. This is not going to result in great blacks. But they don't care. These folks would find the RS4500 with its instant dimming acceptable. I find 1/2 second of fade out worth having a deep black screen so my iris is in full use. I can guarantee that the Interstellar scene on the RS4500 or with dynamic iris disabled on RS640 will be completely unacceptable for me. Also, you cited the "4K Blu-ray Interstellar Scene" above looking great. It doesn't. It can't because the 4K Blu-ray has raised blacks so you don't even get close to true black. So if that looks "great" to you, then we have completely different definitions of what are acceptable black levels - which makes sense.

Now, there's no way that a $15k JVC lamp based projector is going to provide all the Lumens and whatever else your RS4500 has going for it to do great HDR on a 130" scope screen. Whatever the situation will be, your RS4500 is going to be far better than what's offered as RS4xx, RS5xx, and RS6xx replacements. These are lamp based. Those that hate iris pumping are in for a "world of grey" when the native contrast cant get anywhere acceptable and it requires full on dynamic iris to get close to the current e-shift native blacks with full open iris. And by the way, if I want a machine that can do that, I already have my 675ES sitting here, not used for movies or TV because its blacks are too grey.

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post #302 of 13653 Old 08-20-2018, 03:36 PM
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Originally Posted by enricoclaudio View Post
I know the street price and the dealer price for both models as a coworker of mine is a JVC dealer but still, at street price the difference between the two models is more or less 4 times so my question remains the same, is the RS4500 4x times better than the RS640? I'm pretty sure you know the correct answer.
They're dumb questions though - there are equally examples you could pick putting the RS640 at the top (against JVCs own entry level unit, for example). Is the RS640 over twice the projector? Doubtful.

By these kind of arguments we'd all be driving around in VW Polos and the world would be a duller place.
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post #303 of 13653 Old 08-20-2018, 03:46 PM
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Again, if owners of RS540 or RS640's don't like pumping and turn off dynamic iris, then the RS4500 is going to be closer in blacks. I hear plenty of owners complaining about the pumping and recommending disabling the dynamic iris. This is not going to result in great blacks. But they don't care. These folks would find the RS4500 with its instant dimming acceptable. I find 1/2 second of fade out worth having a deep black screen so my iris is in full use. I can guarantee that the Interstellar scene on the RS4500 or with dynamic iris disabled on RS640 will be completely unacceptable for me. Also, you cited the "4K Blu-ray Interstellar Scene" above looking great. It doesn't. It can't because the 4K Blu-ray has raised blacks so you don't even get close to true black. So if that looks "great" to you, then we have completely different definitions of what are acceptable black levels - which makes sense.
I think your rant against DI off is probably wide of the mark.

I guess at that screen size you're running with your iris almost fully open and DI enabled? You'd probably find the black level I achieve in the starfields with DI disabled will be similar to yours with DI enabled. My screen is much smaller than yours so my native contrast will be comparatively higher. At the end of the day the DI can't get you much in starfields if your image is to look in any way faithful to the original as the stars have to be bright, which means the iris can't close much...

A static on/off CR of almost 70K:1 gives some pretty good starfields... Especially if you consider what the contrast ratio detectable by the eye is...
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post #304 of 13653 Old 08-20-2018, 04:23 PM
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Originally Posted by markmon1 View Post
I need great blacks and if it's at the expense of most other features, then so be it. I'm not interested in HDR. So that helps a ton. I simply use MadVR and tone map all HDR to SDR so it still looks great, but doesn't require 1000 nits to do so. HDR on the RS4500 is probably good but nowhere near what it should be or what it looks like on an OLED TV. My RS500, before I sold it, had 3000 hours on the bulb, and it still looked like new. I measured it at 1270 lumens low lamp, 1750 high lamp, which is extremely close to spec on a new bulb. So the 400 hours in argument falls on deaf ears to me. Modern JVC bulbs at 400 hours are almost like new.

Again, if owners of RS540 or RS640's don't like pumping and turn off dynamic iris, then the RS4500 is going to be closer in blacks. I hear plenty of owners complaining about the pumping and recommending disabling the dynamic iris. This is not going to result in great blacks. But they don't care. These folks would find the RS4500 with its instant dimming acceptable. I find 1/2 second of fade out worth having a deep black screen so my iris is in full use. I can guarantee that the Interstellar scene on the RS4500 or with dynamic iris disabled on RS640 will be completely unacceptable for me. Also, you cited the "4K Blu-ray Interstellar Scene" above looking great. It doesn't. It can't because the 4K Blu-ray has raised blacks so you don't even get close to true black. So if that looks "great" to you, then we have completely different definitions of what are acceptable black levels - which makes sense.

Now, there's no way that a $15k JVC lamp based projector is going to provide all the Lumens and whatever else your RS4500 has going for it to do great HDR on a 130" scope screen. Whatever the situation will be, your RS4500 is going to be far better than what's offered as RS4xx, RS5xx, and RS6xx replacements. These are lamp based. Those that hate iris pumping are in for a "world of grey" when the native contrast cant get anywhere acceptable and it requires full on dynamic iris to get close to the current e-shift native blacks with full open iris. And by the way, if I want a machine that can do that, I already have my 675ES sitting here, not used for movies or TV because its blacks are too grey.
I think our configuration would indeed be ideal. A Sony for the sharpness and a JVC for contrast, depending on the type of content switch from one to the other. It's a heck of a lot cheaper than buying the RS4500 too, and offers more flexibility. Unlike you tho, I have a really hard time not comparing with the Sony. I think the light source has a lot to do with it.

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post #305 of 13653 Old 08-20-2018, 04:37 PM
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I think your rant against DI off is probably wide of the mark.

I guess at that screen size you're running with your iris almost fully open and DI enabled? You'd probably find the black level I achieve in the starfields with DI disabled will be similar to yours with DI enabled. My screen is much smaller than yours so my native contrast will be comparatively higher. At the end of the day the DI can't get you much in starfields if your image is to look in any way faithful to the original as the stars have to be bright, which means the iris can't close much...

A static on/off CR of almost 70K:1 gives some pretty good starfields... Especially if you consider what the contrast ratio detectable by the eye is...
My “rant” isn’t against the DI. It’s *for* the DI. And no. The smaller the screen the brighter the image. So as your screen gets smaller, the black floor rises. Your smaller screen with DI disabled and clamped down a bit will be far worse than my larger screen with DI enabled. And yes I use full open but in dynamic mode so when that star field hits, I get faded to as low as it goes.

By the way on that same starfield, lack of native contrast is still visible even if the iris or dimming is extreme. In those cases, the stars will dim along with the blacks. This is what happens with my 675es. On the jvc the blacks are tons deeper and the stars are very white. It looks like you’re in a planetarium.
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post #306 of 13653 Old 08-20-2018, 04:50 PM
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I need great blacks and if it's at the expense of most other features, then so be it. I'm not interested in HDR. So that helps a ton. I simply use MadVR and tone map all HDR to SDR so it still looks great, but doesn't require 1000 nits to do so. HDR on the RS4500 is probably good but nowhere near what it should be or what it looks like on an OLED TV. My RS500, before I sold it, had 3000 hours on the bulb, and it still looked like new. I measured it at 1270 lumens low lamp, 1750 high lamp, which is extremely close to spec on a new bulb. So the 400 hours in argument falls on deaf ears to me. Modern JVC bulbs at 400 hours are almost like new.

Again, if owners of RS540 or RS640's don't like pumping and turn off dynamic iris, then the RS4500 is going to be closer in blacks. I hear plenty of owners complaining about the pumping and recommending disabling the dynamic iris. This is not going to result in great blacks. But they don't care. These folks would find the RS4500 with its instant dimming acceptable. I find 1/2 second of fade out worth having a deep black screen so my iris is in full use. I can guarantee that the Interstellar scene on the RS4500 or with dynamic iris disabled on RS640 will be completely unacceptable for me. Also, you cited the "4K Blu-ray Interstellar Scene" above looking great. It doesn't. It can't because the 4K Blu-ray has raised blacks so you don't even get close to true black. So if that looks "great" to you, then we have completely different definitions of what are acceptable black levels - which makes sense.

Now, there's no way that a $15k JVC lamp based projector is going to provide all the Lumens and whatever else your RS4500 has going for it to do great HDR on a 130" scope screen. Whatever the situation will be, your RS4500 is going to be far better than what's offered as RS4xx, RS5xx, and RS6xx replacements. These are lamp based. Those that hate iris pumping are in for a "world of grey" when the native contrast cant get anywhere acceptable and it requires full on dynamic iris to get close to the current e-shift native blacks with full open iris. And by the way, if I want a machine that can do that, I already have my 675ES sitting here, not used for movies or TV because its blacks are too grey.
Good for you. I have never owned any projector - RS600, especially the VW600, or SIM2 Lumis Host, that didn't have a pretty dramatic light fall off in the first 400 hours of lamp use. Personally, I've never gotten much more than 1000 hours out of a lamp before they were too dim for my tastes. Whatever works for you. You make your choices, and you pay your money.

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post #307 of 13653 Old 08-20-2018, 04:50 PM
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Hahaha I which. To me it would take around 5 months salary But for most people here in Houston that's what you get paid monthly if you work for the Oil industry.

That is a low number if working in the oilfield as a professional for a major.


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post #308 of 13653 Old 08-20-2018, 04:57 PM
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They're dumb questions though - there are equally examples you could pick putting the RS640 at the top (against JVCs own entry level unit, for example). Is the RS640 over twice the projector? Doubtful.

By these kind of arguments we'd all be driving around in VW Polos and the world would be a duller place.
We would all be driving used Yugos. Works just as well to pick up groceries as a $100K Porsche. Better in fact, 'cause you will worry less about door dings / getting keyed.

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post #309 of 13653 Old 08-20-2018, 05:06 PM
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That is a low number if working in the oilfield as a professional for a major.


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$12K to $20K a month is very common here in Houston for professionals working in the oil industry. I'm Civil Eng. with a MS in Structural Engineering and worked in the oilfield industry and construction (in Venezuela) for more than 25 years. After moving to USA, I decided to pursue a career in what was my hobby for 20 years: pro audio and video. Now I'm getting paid for what I have been doing for free my whole adult life
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post #310 of 13653 Old 08-20-2018, 05:09 PM
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Originally Posted by enricoclaudio View Post
$12K to $20K a month is very common here in Houston for professionals working in the oil industry. I'm Civil Eng. with a MS in Structural Engineering and worked in the oilfield industry and construction (in Venezuela) for more than 25 years. After moving to USA, I decided to pursue a career in what was my hobby for 20 years: pro audio and video. Now I'm getting paid for what I have been doing for free my whole adult life

Sounds cool!! I was stating the $12k per month after tax number is low for someone with 10+ years experience in Houston with an oil major.

PM me the home theater company you work for in Houston please.


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post #311 of 13653 Old 08-20-2018, 05:13 PM
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Originally Posted by enricoclaudio View Post
$12K to $20K a month is very common here in Houston for professionals working in the oil industry. I'm Civil Eng. with a MS in Structural Engineering and worked in the oilfield industry and construction (in Venezuela) for more than 25 years. After moving to USA, I decided to pursue a career in what was my hobby for 20 years: pro audio and video. Now I'm getting paid for what I have been doing for free my whole adult life
I'm originally from Oklahoma and my career field has made a few well-paying jobs in the oil industry possible. I always turn them down for one major reason, easy come, easy go.
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post #312 of 13653 Old 08-20-2018, 05:14 PM
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I'm originally from Oklahoma and my career field has made a few well-paying jobs in the oil industry possible. I always turn them down for one major reason, easy come, easy go.

It depends on the company.... are we off topic


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post #313 of 13653 Old 08-20-2018, 05:16 PM
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It depends on the company.... are we off topic


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That's true but I work in safety, we are always the first to go
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post #314 of 13653 Old 08-20-2018, 05:31 PM
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Man, you guys are making me jealous. As a Belgian I make about 14k gross..., with a tax rate of 50%, yay. That's 7k left after tax.

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post #315 of 13653 Old 08-20-2018, 05:31 PM
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I need great blacks and if it's at the expense of most other features, then so be it. I'm not interested in HDR. So that helps a ton. I simply use MadVR and tone map all HDR to SDR so it still looks great, but doesn't require 1000 nits to do so. HDR on the RS4500 is probably good but nowhere near what it should be or what it looks like on an OLED TV. My RS500, before I sold it, had 3000 hours on the bulb, and it still looked like new. I measured it at 1270 lumens low lamp, 1750 high lamp, which is extremely close to spec on a new bulb. So the 400 hours in argument falls on deaf ears to me. Modern JVC bulbs at 400 hours are almost like new.

Again, if owners of RS540 or RS640's don't like pumping and turn off dynamic iris, then the RS4500 is going to be closer in blacks. I hear plenty of owners complaining about the pumping and recommending disabling the dynamic iris. This is not going to result in great blacks. But they don't care. These folks would find the RS4500 with its instant dimming acceptable. I find 1/2 second of fade out worth having a deep black screen so my iris is in full use. I can guarantee that the Interstellar scene on the RS4500 or with dynamic iris disabled on RS640 will be completely unacceptable for me. Also, you cited the "4K Blu-ray Interstellar Scene" above looking great. It doesn't. It can't because the 4K Blu-ray has raised blacks so you don't even get close to true black. So if that looks "great" to you, then we have completely different definitions of what are acceptable black levels - which makes sense.

Now, there's no way that a $15k JVC lamp based projector is going to provide all the Lumens and whatever else your RS4500 has going for it to do great HDR on a 130" scope screen. Whatever the situation will be, your RS4500 is going to be far better than what's offered as RS4xx, RS5xx, and RS6xx replacements. These are lamp based. Those that hate iris pumping are in for a "world of grey" when the native contrast cant get anywhere acceptable and it requires full on dynamic iris to get close to the current e-shift native blacks with full open iris. And by the way, if I want a machine that can do that, I already have my 675ES sitting here, not used for movies or TV because its blacks are too grey.
The 4500 is an interesting animal when you spend time with it. I completely agree that the native contrast falls short, especially for HDR, but it is something to be seen how well the dimming actually helps the image quality. They do a sensational job with coming in and out of black, which makes a HUGE difference. This is the biggest issue I've seen with the laser dimming with the Epson and Sony 885. They jump back and forth, which is widely distracting.

But all is not perfect. The mode that allows for full blackout does a sensational job 95% of the time, but it can be almost too aggressive with REALLY dark images with only a very small object/objects on screen. I've found a couple of these that show that the dimming is too aggressive for a moment making it hard to see what should be on screen. It happens more with credits (which I don't care about) but it does happen occasionally with a movie scene (GOTG2 and War of the Planet of the Apes comes to mind). I wish they had a slightly less aggressive mode that still did full black. I've given JVC different examples to look at for this, so maybe we'll see it at some point.
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post #316 of 13653 Old 08-20-2018, 05:39 PM
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That's true but I work in safety, we are always the first to go
That made me laugh.
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post #317 of 13653 Old 08-20-2018, 05:42 PM
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Man, you guys are making me jealous. As a Belgian I make about 14k gross..., with a tax rate of 50%, yay. That's 7k left after tax.

Come on over to Houston

You probably get “free” health care, university and government pension for retirement I bet


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post #318 of 13653 Old 08-20-2018, 06:15 PM
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Too bad that the media doesn't come with meta-data to give the projector an idea on how much dimming is good for the user. Perhaps somebody should build this and make a custom player for this *huge* market haha
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post #319 of 13653 Old 08-20-2018, 06:18 PM
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Originally Posted by farsider3000 View Post
Come on over to Houston

You probably get “free” health care, university and government pension for retirement I bet
And hurricanes, hot and very very humid summers, ugly scenery, overcrowded.
The only thing good about Houston is the restaurants, but that's only because everyone is fat because of the terrible weather.

How's that for a cordial response?

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post #320 of 13653 Old 08-20-2018, 06:44 PM
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Originally Posted by Pultzar View Post
Too bad that the media doesn't come with meta-data to give the projector an idea on how much dimming is good for the user. Perhaps somebody should build this and make a custom player for this *huge* market haha
That is why HDR10+ or DV would be great for a projector, as it would provide something close to this. On the simulation side, JVC actually pre-buffers the info and provides this very thing to the projector. So they are very aware of the benefits and execution.
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post #321 of 13653 Old 08-20-2018, 07:04 PM
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Originally Posted by coderguy View Post
And hurricanes, hot and very very humid summers, ugly scenery, overcrowded.

The only thing good about Houston is the restaurants, but that's only because everyone is fat because of the terrible weather.



How's that for a cordial response?

You may want to consider seeking professional help.


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post #322 of 13653 Old 08-20-2018, 08:09 PM
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You may want to consider seeking professional help.
I'm not the one posting my salary in a forum.

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post #323 of 13653 Old 08-20-2018, 08:42 PM
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Originally Posted by coderguy View Post
I'm not the one posting my salary in a forum.

You are making assumptions. Let it go.


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post #324 of 13653 Old 08-20-2018, 09:02 PM
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Originally Posted by Pultzar View Post
Too bad that the media doesn't come with meta-data to give the projector an idea on how much dimming is good for the user. Perhaps somebody should build this and make a custom player for this *huge* market haha
The projector doesn't need metadata. It has actual data. It has the whole image and can figure this out itself.

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post #325 of 13653 Old 08-20-2018, 09:07 PM
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You are making assumptions. Let it go.
I was just messing with you and posting out of boredom.
I lived in Houston before, not my favorite place, but like everywhere else, it is what you make of it and depends on the specific part of town where you live.

However, if someone were starting from scratch picking a town (I've lived all over the US), that would not even be in the top half of my list.
It's not the worst place, but I wouldn't go around telling people to move there.

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post #326 of 13653 Old 08-20-2018, 09:15 PM
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Originally Posted by coderguy View Post
I was just messing with you and posting out of boredom.

I lived in Houston before, not my favorite place, but like everywhere else, it is what you make of it and depends on the specific part of town where you live.



However, if someone were starting from scratch picking a town (I've lived all over the US), that would not even be in the top half of my list.

It's not the worst place, but I wouldn't go around telling people to move there.

I agree with you. I have lived in Houston, on the east coast, Midwest and in Russia. Houston ranks only above Russia

I can say that because I was born and raised here.


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post #327 of 13653 Old 08-20-2018, 09:24 PM
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I agree with you. I have lived in Houston, on the east coast, Midwest and in Russia. Houston ranks only above Russia

I can say that because I was born and raised here.
Ranking just above Russia, I can agree with that.

If I had to pick any specific place to live, Northern GA, Southeastern TN (Chatt/Knox), South Carolina, or the NW of the US (Portland).
Also like Northern California (a bit east of the coast where weather is milder in summer but not too hot), but problem is COL there.
NC and VA are ok but getting too cold for my tastes. TN winter is about as bad as I want it.

Even the above mentioned areas have some issues (high crime in some places), but you just have to be careful where you live and drive.

Would love to live in certain parts of Montana or Idaho, but only 6-8 months of the year.

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post #328 of 13653 Old 08-21-2018, 12:24 AM
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We would all be driving used Yugos. Works just as well to pick up groceries as a $100K Porsche. Better in fact, 'cause you will worry less about door dings / getting keyed.
Not enough of them, value would be driven artificially high. Might happen to the last of the eShift yet... lol
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post #329 of 13653 Old 08-21-2018, 12:40 AM
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The 4500 is an interesting animal when you spend time with it. I completely agree that the native contrast falls short, especially for HDR, but it is something to be seen how well the dimming actually helps the image quality. They do a sensational job with coming in and out of black, which makes a HUGE difference. This is the biggest issue I've seen with the laser dimming with the Epson and Sony 885. They jump back and forth, which is widely distracting.

But all is not perfect. The mode that allows for full blackout does a sensational job 95% of the time, but it can be almost too aggressive with REALLY dark images with only a very small object/objects on screen. I've found a couple of these that show that the dimming is too aggressive for a moment making it hard to see what should be on screen. It happens more with credits (which I don't care about) but it does happen occasionally with a movie scene (GOTG2 and War of the Planet of the Apes comes to mind). I wish they had a slightly less aggressive mode that still did full black. I've given JVC different examples to look at for this, so maybe we'll see it at some point.
I have a completely different experience concerning the laser dimming on the Sony. It's so fast it's not perceptible, I really had to slow down, take some scenes to do some testing and them it would be apparent how well it really worked.

Only the full black is a little jarring, but everything else is extremely fast and agile.

Getting the x7900 made me realize what a wonderful machine this really is.

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post #330 of 13653 Old 08-21-2018, 12:44 AM
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Originally Posted by markmon1 View Post
My “rant” isn’t against the DI. It’s *for* the DI. And no. The smaller the screen the brighter the image. So as your screen gets smaller, the black floor rises. Your smaller screen with DI disabled and clamped down a bit will be far worse than my larger screen with DI enabled. And yes I use full open but in dynamic mode so when that star field hits, I get faded to as low as it goes.

By the way on that same starfield, lack of native contrast is still visible even if the iris or dimming is extreme. In those cases, the stars will dim along with the blacks. This is what happens with my 675es. On the jvc the blacks are tons deeper and the stars are very white. It looks like you’re in a planetarium.
You mis-read the post. I said your rant against DI off.

As your screen gets smaller, for calibrated SDR your black floor lowers and native contrast increases as you close down the iris to maintain the same peak white level. This is why I know to set mine to -11 - I measure the point at which the iris setting peak white hits reference. For HDR you have a choice to give up some or all of that contrast and black floor increase to get a higher peak white.
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