NEW JVC RS3000/NX9 RS2000/N7 RS1000/N5 Native 4K Projectors Anticipation Thread - Page 12 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #331 of 13653 Old 08-21-2018, 12:49 AM
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And I think pricing on the RS4500 is rather absurd in terms of value. The price here in Europe is 2x the price of a vw760es/vw885es. I also agree the price in the US for the Sony is similarly too high. Ideally i would price them as 15k for the Sony and 20k for the JVC. This would make me consider the JVC.

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post #332 of 13653 Old 08-21-2018, 04:23 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kris Deering View Post
That is why HDR10+ or DV would be great for a projector, as it would provide something close to this. On the simulation side, JVC actually pre-buffers the info and provides this very thing to the projector. So they are very aware of the benefits and execution.

For those that missed it early on in other thread, JVC is working on HDR10+
Not so much on Dolby Vision

nice little bonus: they may add more sensor support for Autocal

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post #333 of 13653 Old 08-21-2018, 05:15 AM
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The problem is that HDR10+ may be already dead. Warner Bros has decided to drop out of the development group.
I would love to see Dolby find a way to make projectors work with a version of Dolby Vision.
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post #334 of 13653 Old 08-21-2018, 07:35 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by David Mathews View Post
For those that missed it early on in other thread, JVC is working on HDR10+
Not so much on Dolby Vision

nice little bonus: they may add more sensor support for Autocal
More sensor support sounds great. HDR10+ seems to be vaporware at this point, but who knows.

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post #335 of 13653 Old 08-21-2018, 07:45 AM
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Originally Posted by rwestley View Post
The problem is that HDR10+ may be already dead. Warner Bros has decided to drop out of the development group.
I would love to see Dolby find a way to make projectors work with a version of Dolby Vision.
If Warner dropped out that's bad as they basically decided the HD DVD/BD format war with eventual exclusive BD support. HD DVD was practically finished at that point. I think they hold more titles than any other studio.
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post #336 of 13653 Old 08-21-2018, 07:58 AM
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I have a completely different experience concerning the laser dimming on the Sony. It's so fast it's not perceptible, I really had to slow down, take some scenes to do some testing and them it would be apparent how well it really worked.

Only the full black is a little jarring, but everything else is extremely fast and agile.

Getting the x7900 made me realize what a wonderful machine this really is.
Glad it works for you. I've already posted why I think most people don't notice the laser dimming in the Sony, but it isn't because it is fast and agile. I've posted the data in the comparison thread.

The Epson and the Sony have the jarring in and out of black (you notice it far more coming out of black than into it). The 4500 doesn't have this issue at all, but as mentioned before, it has its own quibbles.
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post #337 of 13653 Old 08-21-2018, 08:06 AM
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Originally Posted by DavidHir View Post
If Warner dropped out that's bad as they basically decided the HD DVD/BD format war with eventual exclusive BD support. HD DVD was practically finished at that point. I think they hold more titles than any other studio.
This is the current list of adopters. I think Panasonic is hedging their bets since they will also support Dolby Vision on their UHD players. Amazon seems to be on board The information of Warner dropping out came from a post by Robert Zohn of Value electronics. With Disney buying Fox it could be the end of HDR 10+ Since Disney supports Dolby Vision.

https://www.hdr10plus.org/current-adopters/
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post #338 of 13653 Old 08-21-2018, 08:13 AM
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Originally Posted by rwestley View Post
This is the current list of adopters. I think Panasonic is hedging their bets since they will also support Dolby Vision on their UHD players. Amazon seems to be on board The information of Warner dropping out came from a post by Robert Zohn of Value electronics. With Disney buying Fox it could be the end of HDR 10+ Since Disney supports Dolby Vision.

https://www.hdr10plus.org/current-adopters/
Is he back posting again on AVSF?
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post #339 of 13653 Old 08-21-2018, 08:17 AM
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Is he back posting again on AVSF?
No it was on Blu-ray forum. I think Robert has been banned for life from posting on AVS which is really too bad.
He has a lot of information that might be helpful.
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post #340 of 13653 Old 08-21-2018, 08:23 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kris Deering View Post
The Epson and the Sony have the jarring in and out of black (you notice it far more coming out of black than into it). The 4500 doesn't have this issue at all, but as mentioned before, it has its own quibbles.
This is the main reason I just don't get the fuss over fade to black as currently implemented. I've not seen the Z1/RS4500, but have seen both the other products, and for me something that introduces an obvious, fairly frequent stand-out discontinuity in the video presentation seems to be wholly undesirable and just a bit of a gimmick (would be nice if it worked properly, but it doesn't, so turn the damn thing off!).
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post #341 of 13653 Old 08-21-2018, 08:26 AM
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This is the main reason I just don't get the fuss over fade to black as currently implemented. I've not seen the Z1/RS4500, but have seen both the other products, and for me something that introduces an obvious, fairly frequent stand-out discontinuity in the video presentation seems to be wholly undesirable and just a bit of a gimmick (would be nice if it worked properly, but it doesn't, so turn the damn thing off!).
Yup. I was out in Colorado to calibrate a 4500 this last weekend. They had about 6-8 people there to see the finished result. I used the opening sequence of Lucy to show how well the dimming works. It fades in and out of full black with the opening titles and the image of the cells. This scene looks REALLY bad with the Sony and Epson models. The JVC handles it perfectly with clean fades in and out of black.
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post #342 of 13653 Old 08-21-2018, 08:34 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kris Deering View Post
Yup. I was out in Colorado to calibrate a 4500 this last weekend. They had about 6-8 people there to see the finished result. I used the opening sequence of Lucy to show how well the dimming works. It fades in and out of full black with the opening titles and the image of the cells. This scene looks REALLY bad with the Sony and Epson models.


The JVC handles it perfectly with clean fades in and out of black.



Excellent and exactly what I'm looking for in Test/Reviews.


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post #343 of 13653 Old 08-21-2018, 09:21 AM
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The 4500 is an interesting animal when you spend time with it. I completely agree that the native contrast falls short, especially for HDR, but it is something to be seen how well the dimming actually helps the image quality. They do a sensational job with coming in and out of black, which makes a HUGE difference. This is the biggest issue I've seen with the laser dimming with the Epson and Sony 885. They jump back and forth, which is widely distracting.

But all is not perfect. The mode that allows for full blackout does a sensational job 95% of the time, but it can be almost too aggressive with REALLY dark images with only a very small object/objects on screen. I've found a couple of these that show that the dimming is too aggressive for a moment making it hard to see what should be on screen. It happens more with credits (which I don't care about) but it does happen occasionally with a movie scene (GOTG2 and War of the Planet of the Apes comes to mind). I wish they had a slightly less aggressive mode that still did full black. I've given JVC different examples to look at for this, so maybe we'll see it at some point.
I've switched to the less aggressive mode 1 dimming. Overall I think it works nearly as good, and does not overly dim in those rare instances. Still blacks out my theater at times to where you can't see a thing, which is fun when someone is trying to pour a glass of wine.
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post #344 of 13653 Old 08-21-2018, 10:01 AM
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Reading the HD Blog it publication, I did not conclude the present e-shift line wil be changed. It refers to a bulb 4k projector, much less expensive than the RS 4500. Of course I may be wrong.
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post #345 of 13653 Old 08-21-2018, 10:32 AM
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I will happily trade REAL 4K for more lumens. JVC does a tremendous job with e-shift. I want the next generation of 4500 (bulb based is fine) with an MSRP at about $20,000 and at least 2500 lumens - preferably at least 3000.

OR ... win the lottery!!
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post #346 of 13653 Old 08-21-2018, 10:52 AM
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I've switched to the less aggressive mode 1 dimming. Overall I think it works nearly as good, and does not overly dim in those rare instances. Still blacks out my theater at times to where you can't see a thing, which is fun when someone is trying to pour a glass of wine.
Mode 1 definitely does a better job with the torture test clips I use. But I could never get the image to actually black out, as Mode 1 does not allow for full laser shut off. You can certainly get images that appear to black out due to eye bias (many displays can do this depending on the content you're watching), but never an actual laser off black out.

I still think for HDR to be as effective as it should with projection, we need A LOT more native contrast. Dynamic systems work well for what they are, but they will never be able to achieve the type of contrast that is needed for HDR to be at its most effective. I hope we see more work put into high contrast performance at the chip level, or else there will always be drawbacks and limitations that will prevent HDR from being properly displayed on a projection system, even at lower light output.

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post #347 of 13653 Old 08-21-2018, 11:02 AM
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Mode 1 definitely does a better job with the torture test clips I use. But I could never get the image to actually black out, as Mode 1 does not allow for full laser shut off. You can certainly get images that appear to black out due to eye bias (many displays can do this depending on the content you're watching), but never an actual laser off black out.

I still think for HDR to be as effective as it should with projection, we need A LOT more native contrast. Dynamic systems work well for what they are, but they will never be able to achieve the type of contrast that is needed for HDR to be at its most effective. I hope we see more work put into high contrast performance at the chip level, or else there will always be drawbacks and limitations that will prevent HDR from being properly displayed on a projection system, even at lower light output.
I found the compromise to be acceptable, and raising the HDR brightness to 47 foot lamberts with the DCR lens made that " eye bias " work even better !

More contrast would always be good, as would more brightness. That said, this picture is the pinnacle of picture quality I've had in my theater in 16 years. Can't wait for more new 4K Blu-rays coming out soon !

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post #348 of 13653 Old 08-21-2018, 12:06 PM
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If Warner dropped out that's bad as they basically decided the HD DVD/BD format war with eventual exclusive BD support. HD DVD was practically finished at that point. I think they hold more titles than any other studio.

we can agree to disagree on how done HD DVD was at the time it died. HD DVD was a band-aid on DVD tech. BD had a lot of advantages that made it possible for the relative easy transition to handle 3D and now UHD content. I do think that the physical BD format can't evolve much more and if physical formats continue there will have to be major changes in the optical disc. I doubt very much it will happen.

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post #349 of 13653 Old 08-21-2018, 12:23 PM
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we can agree to disagree on how done HD DVD was at the time it died. HD DVD was a band-aid on DVD tech. BD had a lot of advantages that made it possible for the relative easy transition to handle 3D and now UHD content. I do think that the physical BD format can't evolve much more and if physical formats continue there will have to be major changes in the optical disc. I doubt very much it will happen.
I'm not sure we disagree much on HD DVD. But once Warner dropped support, they folded. They could not continue a format with only two major studios (Paramount and Universal) where as Blu-ray had all of the others. Warner was the only reason HD DVD lasted as long as it did otherwise it would have went out sooner.
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post #350 of 13653 Old 08-21-2018, 12:27 PM
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I found the compromise to be acceptable, and raising the HDR brightness to 47 foot lamberts with the DCR lens made that " eye bias " work even better !

More contrast would always be good, as would more brightness. That said, this picture is the pinnacle of picture quality I've had in my theater in 16 years. Can't wait for more new 4K Blu-rays coming out soon !
Agree, though I tend to lean on the side of more contrast vs more brightness. The reason for more brightness in HDR is color volume, and you won't get bright enough with a projector for that to be a reality. The next big part is dynamic range, which is contrast. Because of the nature of dynamic systems, many times your upper end is compromised to give you more at the bottom (as this has always been the harder area to achieve better results). So if I was setting up a projector for HDR, I would prioritize contrast (especially native contrast) over peak brightness. So in the case of your projector, I know you like the brighter image (this has been the case with most people with displays) but I would have used that headroom to give a higher overall native contrast by using the aperture to limit to say 30 fL. But because the 4500 is a single aperture, it may not clamp down enough to make a significant difference to contrast. It is always a case by case on this stuff depending on screen size, brightness, blah blah blah.
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post #351 of 13653 Old 08-21-2018, 12:44 PM
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No it was on Blu-ray forum. I think Robert has been banned for life from posting on AVS which is really too bad.
He has a lot of information that might be helpful.
I remember why he was banned. That is why I was surprised, when you said posts. Now it makes sense.
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post #352 of 13653 Old 08-21-2018, 12:50 PM
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I found the compromise to be acceptable, and raising the HDR brightness to 47 foot lamberts with the DCR lens made that " eye bias " work even better !

More contrast would always be good, as would more brightness. That said, this picture is the pinnacle of picture quality I've had in my theater in 16 years. Can't wait for more new 4K Blu-rays coming out soon !
Yeah, I could see where raising screen brightness would carry that blackout fairly well. It does a good job in my room with the RS640, but unlike the 4500, if the blackout is a long one, the 640 can't quite fully pull it off. The 4500 provided the best fade to black that I have seen in my room. I still remember the first one, I thought my 4500 had quit working.
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post #353 of 13653 Old 08-21-2018, 12:51 PM
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The projector doesn't need metadata. It has actual data. It has the whole image and can figure this out itself.
I disagree, the projector needs information about what is coming. This can be done cheaply with metadata or you have to buffer a bunch of image data which is expensive and causes lag.

I was watching an episode or Mr. Robot and there was a dark scene with quick flashes of very bright material, perhaps just a couple of frames each. I suspect this might cause problems for current dynamic systems but would have to see for myself to know. My current device isn't dynamic.
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post #354 of 13653 Old 08-21-2018, 01:35 PM
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Yup. I was out in Colorado to calibrate a 4500 this last weekend. They had about 6-8 people there to see the finished result. I used the opening sequence of Lucy to show how well the dimming works. It fades in and out of full black with the opening titles and the image of the cells. This scene looks REALLY bad with the Sony and Epson models. The JVC handles it perfectly with clean fades in and out of black.
Interesting. That same sequence also used to trip up the auto aspect algorithm in the HD Lumagens and make them get stuck in the wrong aspect. Bless Luc Besson and his services to the calibration community...
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post #355 of 13653 Old 08-21-2018, 09:47 PM
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I understand we know very few details at this stage, but based on the technology we currently know about and the limitations should I expect to see an increase or even match my RS420 (iris set to -13) for contrast for even the top end model (RS640 equivalent)? I was considering upgrading this year but I really don't like the idea of having a downgrade in the contrast department.

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post #356 of 13653 Old 08-21-2018, 10:21 PM
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What day is IFA Berlin JVC press conference set for? I read somewhere Sep 1st and in other August 30th.

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post #357 of 13653 Old 08-21-2018, 10:31 PM
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I understand we know very few details at this stage, but based on the technology we currently know about and the limitations should I expect to see an increase or even match my RS420 (iris set to -13) for contrast for even the top end model (RS640 equivalent)? I was considering upgrading this year but I really don't like the idea of having a downgrade in the contrast department.
That is the 64 million dollar question. Personally, I doubt they would have made significant strides at the chip level when it comes to native contrast. However they will have bound to have implemented few methods to compensate.

In light of that, would the compensatory methods used give acceptable results. A clue would be how the buyers of the RS4500 'see' their projector perform. They seem quite happy. Only one or two wish the native contrast was better.

Native contrast with the native 4k chips will steadily get better over time, but it will take some time, so I put my money where my thoughts are and bought a RS640/X9900 courtesy of Javs. I've been spoilt with a native contrast of in excess of 100,000:1 with my current JVC -15, small 2.4 gain 106" screen.

I'm hoping I did the right thing. In 9 more days, I'll know, either I'll kick my self or congratulate myself , if I'm wrong it won't be too bad, I'll enjoy this unit for a few years and upgrade down the track when the 4k chip is more mature and laser engines have ditched the phosphor wheel.

Always wondered about the phosphor wheel, does it continue to emit light for several milliseconds after the laser power is cut?
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post #358 of 13653 Old 08-22-2018, 03:03 AM
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What day is IFA Berlin JVC press conference set for? I read somewhere Sep 1st and in other August 30th.
Going to be a long week. I've been holding off buying the JVC 5900 or 7900 (if budget allows) to see what the new models are like. Surprised there hasn't been any real leaks. They're good at keeping things close to their chest.

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post #359 of 13653 Old 08-22-2018, 03:33 AM
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Originally Posted by Highjinx View Post
That is the 64 million dollar question. Personally, I doubt they would have made significant strides at the chip level when it comes to native contrast. However they will have bound to have implemented few methods to compensate.

In light of that, would the compensatory methods used give acceptable results. A clue would be how the buyers of the RS4500 'see' their projector perform. They seem quite happy. Only one or two wish the native contrast was better.

Native contrast with the native 4k chips will steadily get better over time, but it will take some time, so I put my money where my thoughts are and bought a RS640/X9900 courtesy of Javs. I've been spoilt with a native contrast of in excess of 100,000:1 with my current JVC -15, small 2.4 gain 106" screen.

I'm hoping I did the right thing. In 9 more days, I'll know, either I'll kick my self or congratulate myself , if I'm wrong it won't be too bad, I'll enjoy this unit for a few years and upgrade down the track when the 4k chip is more mature and laser engines have ditched the phosphor wheel.

Always wondered about the phosphor wheel, does it continue to emit light for several milliseconds after the laser power is cut?
You will NOT kick yourself. 4k at JVC is still in it's infancy. We're just leaving the prototype generation into the first real "mainstream" line. Or at least I hope we do.

If JVC makes significant progress in contrast, you can be sure it's going to be a mainline unit first, before it trickles down to the lower units.

What is possible of course, is that the eshift line is also updated and more significant than we expect, but I doubt this will happen.
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post #360 of 13653 Old 08-22-2018, 03:44 AM
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You will NOT kick yourself. 4k at JVC is still in it's infancy. We're just leaving the prototype generation into the first real "mainstream" line. Or at least I hope we do.

If JVC makes significant progress in contrast, you can be sure it's going to be a mainline unit first, before it trickles down to the lower units.

What is possible of course, is that the eshift line is also updated and more significant than we expect, but I doubt this will happen.
I hadn't thought of the possibility of them continuing the e-shift units in an improved series. But I won't mind if the 4k units shine with improved contrast, I know they will be nowhere near the contrast levels of the e-shift units. I'll enjoy this unit for a few years. By that time laser maybe mainstream, cheap(er) and the 4k chip matured with much improved contrast.

Can't wait to see what's on offer in a few days anyway!
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