NEW JVC RS3000/NX9 RS2000/N7 RS1000/N5 Native 4K Projectors Anticipation Thread - Page 123 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #3661 of 13667 Old 09-10-2018, 04:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by doctormyeyes View Post
It seems to me we need an outboard tone processor that tone maps HDR, outputs SDR, and is customizable for your projector/screen combination. Let the display devices display, and the processors process. Would be valuable for the millions of old HD televisions out there as well, so has a huge market. Keep your RS540 forever.
Ya, this product is called "MadVR".
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post #3662 of 13667 Old 09-10-2018, 04:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Garrett View Post
The projected image will be 16:9 if that is what you are sending.
If you set the projector to 17:9 mode by sending an image that's 4096x2160, size it to fit the width of a 16:9 screen, and send a 16:9 image to the projector you get small black bars on sides of the image. This is *not* an acceptable situation to me.

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post #3663 of 13667 Old 09-10-2018, 04:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Soulnight View Post
Just took my Galaxy S7 and took a quick picture of the 4K pattern with the Epson LS10000 E-shift. RGB input.
I will try to find a better camera for the future...

Epson EH-LS10000

Sorry, but to put this into better perspective, I've attached more what the epson will look like compared to the JVCs.
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Video: JVC RS4500 135" ST130 G4 screen in batcave, htpc nvidia 1080ti madVR.
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post #3664 of 13667 Old 09-10-2018, 04:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by markmon1 View Post
Honestly, the RS540/RS640 built in HDR curves suck. Everything is way too dark. You can load custom curves which are better, but then you might need to manually switch to them. I'm not sure how this works on the JVC, on the Sony you have to do it manually. Your only option for a good tone map is going to be the RS1000 or newer that have tone mapping as a feature. The tone mapping on the new units may or may not be great. We dont' know. If it's bad, there's at least a slider so you can make the tone mapping brighter. This is important as it would automatically happen for your wife, and it would be able to produce brighter images than the RS540 etc.

If sony PJ have RS232 command to switch custom curve, then you can automate switching, refer to manni work on "JVC macro".
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post #3665 of 13667 Old 09-10-2018, 04:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Frohlich View Post
I will say that 1080P upscaled on my 385 is very nice. Blu rays often look almost like UHD content. Still fighting whether to get the N7 this time around and stick with Sony and get the 695. I have a long history with Sony projectors and so they are just my comfort zone but the new JVCs look very nice on paper and from the early show reviews/impressions.
If you want really good blacks, better than what you have now, go with the N7. I think even an N5 is more impressive than the 695ES. If you are good with the quality of your blacks now, stick with your 385ES. I don't see any reason to go from 385ES to 695ES. I have a 675ES. I couldn't see it being worth the differences. Also, the 695ES is $10k. Geez. for that you can get an N5 + a lumagen. I think the 695ES is a ripoff based on what else is being offered.
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post #3666 of 13667 Old 09-10-2018, 05:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by markmon1 View Post
Sorry, but to put this into better perspective, I've attached more what the epson will look like compared to the JVCs.
Which projector is this?

JVC X9500 (RS620) | 120" 16:9 | Marantz AV7702 MkII | Emotiva XPA-7 | DIY Modular Towers | DIY TPL-150 Surrounds | DIY Atmos | DIY 18" Subs
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post #3667 of 13667 Old 09-10-2018, 05:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by markmon1 View Post
Ya, this product is called "MadVR".
Isn't that an HTPC software product? In which case the spouse acceptance factor is nil. Also, my aging brain could probably figure it out now, but it won't be too many years before I've forgotten how to use it. Please tell me I'm wrong and that's its an easy plug and play box that sits in my signal chain and fixes everything automatically.
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post #3668 of 13667 Old 09-10-2018, 05:44 PM
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I noticed they finally changed the dimensions on this year's projectors. Will the old mounting plates still work? Never upgraded a JVC before.
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post #3669 of 13667 Old 09-10-2018, 05:53 PM
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Cool

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Originally Posted by Mike Garrett View Post
Yeah, but think of how nice that dog house would be with an NX9 hanging in it.
You finally WILL be the wonderful guy your dog thought you were.... (assuming you don't kick him out)
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post #3670 of 13667 Old 09-10-2018, 05:58 PM
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Originally Posted by 2 Stangs View Post
I noticed they finally changed the dimensions on this year's projectors. Will the old mounting plates still work? Never upgraded a JVC before.
Yes they are exactly the same
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post #3671 of 13667 Old 09-10-2018, 06:39 PM
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Originally Posted by Clark Burk View Post
I already have one but no intention of selling one of my 203’s yet Chris. I love the 203. Best media player out there for playing UHD off a NAS. If they get the HDR > SDR figured out it will re-take the UHD player crown.
Not that its a huge deal but when another player gets the crown the Oppo will drop to where the price should be.... It always amazed me how NEC sold there plasma plant's to Pioneer way back when, then 2 years later Pioneer quit making TV's. Its like NEC had a crystal ball.
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post #3672 of 13667 Old 09-10-2018, 06:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Soulnight View Post
I checked again with mpc-be as player (I did not know that it could open picture to begin with).
Exact same result. :-)

Actually, I heard from the begining that Epson was doing things better with "adressing" the 4K pixel than JVC did JVC. But I never took the time to play that pattern before. :-)

Still, I am pleasantly surprised myself. But I did see in the past that the Epson LS10000 sharpness was very close to the Sony VW550es with 4K content (or upscaled 1080p content to 4K with NGU from Madvr).

And "my" LS10000 was definetely sharper that every JVC X5500 and JVC X7500 that I compared it too, especially because the LS10000 does not show the typical JVC noise, even when using E-shift on the Epson.

That being said, the N5 pattern looks amazing :-)
And the N7 should probably ends up at my home in the future. N7 (with 100% DCI + native SHARP 4k)+Madvr 4K upscaling with NGU + Madvr great HDR ton Mapping & dynamic HDR....

Can't check quick brown fox on Epson 5040 right now since away attending a symposium.

But I accidentally turned off eshift last weekend fat fingering remote. With close seating was pretty much: OMGosh make it stop!!! I thought at the time pain was due mainly to lcd screen door effect, but i guess lack of good eshift may have played a part in it too.


135" from about 9 feet. Really looking forward to these new JVCs native 4k, lens and contrast!

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post #3673 of 13667 Old 09-10-2018, 07:02 PM
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Originally Posted by Josh Z View Post
No 21:9 aspect ratio controls or subtitle shift on the Panasonic. OPPO was the only manufacturer to cater to that market.
The Panasonic UB820 does have subtitle shift.
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post #3674 of 13667 Old 09-10-2018, 07:08 PM
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Originally Posted by DLCPhoto View Post
Just for the record, the UB-820 does in fact allow subtitle shift, as well as the ability to alter its transparency. I don't own one, but multiple users have confirmed this, and I have seen the options in its menus.

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The Panasonic UB820 does have subtitle shift.

I stand corrected, thanks.

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post #3675 of 13667 Old 09-10-2018, 07:12 PM
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Any word on gaming latency beyond “low latency mode”? Have a Sony HW50ES and considering an upgrade to this. Is JVC comparable to Sony now for gaming? Thanks.
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post #3676 of 13667 Old 09-10-2018, 07:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by markmon1 View Post
Ya, this product is called "MadVR".
How do I tone map HDR from my Shield TV or PS4 with MadVR?


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post #3677 of 13667 Old 09-10-2018, 07:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by markmon1 View Post
Honestly, the RS540/RS640 built in HDR curves suck. Everything is way too dark. You can load custom curves which are better, but then you might need to manually switch to them. I'm not sure how this works on the JVC, on the Sony you have to do it manually. Your only option for a good tone map is going to be the RS1000 or newer that have tone mapping as a feature. The tone mapping on the new units may or may not be great. We dont' know. If it's bad, there's at least a slider so you can make the tone mapping brighter. This is important as it would automatically happen for your wife, and it would be able to produce brighter images than the RS540 etc.
I imagine the HDR works the same on the new models as on my RS4500, since JVC has taken things learned on that model and used those improvements on subsequent lower priced models. I have no complaints with HDR on my projector.
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post #3678 of 13667 Old 09-10-2018, 07:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Soulnight View Post
Agreed. I also don't get while poeple believe they get "more resolution" and "more brightness" with an anamorphic lens, when it's actually destroying the 1:1 pixel mapping, where most of the pixels if not all needs to be reinvented... with a minimal brightness bump...

Agreed, lack of 1:1 worrisome. But did not see Craig Peer, Mike (who helped talked Craig into quality A lens like Paladin), or some folks in the 20k+ gear section complain about lack of sharpness. With compression, the pixels are smaller on screen so visual acuity can mask issue some what. Also high brightness helps perception of contrast/sharpness. Sooo, took a big leap of faith based on experienced folks impressions, and B stock pricing helped enable leap.. At full retail, on my salary and investments, would have been a harder leap


That said, based on your excellent projection dream website, you are obviously much more experienced than I. so yes, still a bit worried gee, thanks I'ld already been thinking if JVC scaler indeed has visible issues, even with compressed sized pixels and my viewing distance, next project would be madvr at least for favorite titles

Toying with idea of getting entry level full frame camera so you guys could a/b, but the thought of folks like you, arrow, Javs, markmon1, madshi etc critiquing them, its a bit daunting lol

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post #3679 of 13667 Old 09-10-2018, 07:45 PM
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Originally Posted by Javs View Post
I guess I am trying to do a calculation in my head which is not easy to do.

I suppose basically by using a 17:9 panel, you will be effectively only be losing about as much light vs a native 16:9 panel projector as going to a screen about 3 inches larger diagonally. If both were spec'd at 1900lm.

So it would be something like, if you were getting 44fl before with the 16:9 panel projector on your screen, you might get 42fl now with the 17:9 panel, but spilling off the sides on the same screen.

Thats really negligible. For some reason I thought it would be considerably worse. Bulb variance is going to eat any of that spread from being quantifiable.
This feels like Therapy Javs.
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post #3680 of 13667 Old 09-10-2018, 07:55 PM
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Originally Posted by Mike Garrett View Post
RS640 is a great projector. I will be keeping mine and moving it to my family room.
I agree. You would have to pry my 640 out of my cold dead hands!
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post #3681 of 13667 Old 09-10-2018, 08:00 PM
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Originally Posted by markmon1 View Post
As an owner of 6 JVC projectors I can say that the JVC upscaling algorithms suck. They're right up there with any computer display that scales the image to fit its resolution. Unless the RS4500 is somehow unique in all the JVC line in this regard, I can confidently say that JVC's upscaler basically sucks. It's going to be good enough to show a 1080p image on the display but it will not do anything to make that 1080p image look like a 4K image.

The Sony, in contrast, is an incredible upscaler. Those 1080p images do contain some aspects of 4K images on that upscaler. MadVR is probably the best upscaler I've ever seen. It actually does about as good of a job as the expensive upscalers used by UHD bluray manufacturers when they upscale the 2k DI to UHD.

I think the JVC upscaler "works" but it's not impressive.
What does having six JVC projectors, have to do with the scaling of the RS4500, since none of those six were the RS4500? Here is what Kris had to say about the scaling of the 4500.

"Noticed some new things today. Looks like the 1080p to 4K scaling in the JVC is doing a better job than both the Oppo and the Lumagen. If I feed a single pixel 1080p pattern to the JVC it looks fantastic, this was one of the first things I checked simply because they always looked so horrific on the Sony's. With a Sony 4K you couldn't even make out the grid and there was a lot of green, pink and yellow banding throughout the image. With the JVC it looks spot on, no discoloration and the grid is clean with fine pixel details easy to see. If I scale the image using the Oppo 105D to 4K, you can still make out the grid but there is discoloration in certain parts. If I use the Lumagen Radiance Pro, there is banding and discoloration in the image and it reminded me of the Sony, though not quite as bad. So from what I've seen so far, the best move for 1080p content to the JVC is straight in and not scaled from an outside source."

"Does not have the same scaling artifacts as the Sony 4K line with 1080p resolution patterns, they actually look like they should"
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post #3682 of 13667 Old 09-10-2018, 08:02 PM
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Originally Posted by BattleAxeVR View Post
It wouldn't even bug me if these projectors had several thousand lumens to play with, but they are literally charging thousands more for a similar 5.5% lumens increase, going from 1800 lumens to 1900 lumens, which they could've offered "for free".

I guess for the 0.00002% of people who have access (at work, presumably) to DCP 4K packages, it's worth costing 6% brightness to everyone else. Shrug. This is a gimmick, and I say that about tech rarely. Even 8K I think is worthwhile if you sit close enough and use AI upscaling. But 4096 over 3840 is totally pointless.


Economies of scale. Would imagine simulation market, not just the dci market helps drive down costs for us,

and who knows, maybe real 4k content will be more prevalent someday? I keep being amazed at how fast things progess
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post #3683 of 13667 Old 09-10-2018, 08:14 PM
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Originally Posted by Mike Garrett View Post
Everybody that is worried about throw, since they are at the short end of the throw range with their current projector. You can use the 3840 or the 4096 width of the chip. See the attached brochure and you can see the throw distance change when full 4096 is used. So for example:



Existing projectors 120" 16:9 screen needs 12'-3"

New JVC using 3840 needs 12'-6"

New JVC using 4096 needs 11'-10.5"


What would a 16:9 123 inch screen need?
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post #3684 of 13667 Old 09-10-2018, 08:21 PM
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Originally Posted by Highjinx View Post
Any manufacture will lay claim to perceivable improvements in their products, the marketing department would be looking out for such things. They are very careful only to claim (in print) what is correct. Verbally what may be claimed is different matter.

Here is what they said of the RS600 X900 X9000 in regard to 3D & chip improvements:
I don't see anything saying greatly improved. Also you find much the same thing said about the RS67, which came before the RS600. http://pro.jvc.com/pro/attributes/PR...DLARS67web.pdf
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post #3685 of 13667 Old 09-10-2018, 08:22 PM
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Originally Posted by CrazyEddie View Post
Close, but not quite.

The EDID sent by the projector does not have the 'DV Capable' flag set. So the source will never send a DV signal to the JVC.

The projector will, however, have the 'HDR Capable' flag set. So the source will send an HDR-10 compliant signal.

The polling/transmission of those EDID values all the way up and down the chain and the 'negotiation' of what types of signals can be sent/received is commonly referred to as 'the HDMI handshake'.

So DV is the secret handshake that ends with fist bump explosion? The explosion is there to better capture the hdr highlights?

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post #3686 of 13667 Old 09-10-2018, 08:24 PM
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Originally Posted by Bytehoven View Post
The players will apply HDR tone mapping to HDR title but not to non HDR titles. Same with madVR i think.

If you're talking about several external sources, the Lumagen Radiance Pro is arguably the best solution and you can buy and load the lumagen with many inputs.

Some have experimented with running an AVR output into the OPPO hdmi input, which will auto detect HDR and use whatever process you have enabled, but until OPPO fixes HDR OFF BT2020, it's not considered the best way to go.

Maybe you could explain your set up and what you want your solution to look like.
Is it likely that Oppo will fix the HDR mapping bug? I thought they were shutting down.

How does the Lumagen tone mapping approach compare?

Do either support a slider like what is coming in the new JVC line so that people with very dim or very bright setups can have the display take that into consideration to further optimize the curve (for instance in the case of having low nits it would give you a chance to say you want an overall brighter image at the expense of some HDR highlights).

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Originally Posted by DLCPhoto View Post
...The 21:9 feature of the Oppo is a great feature; I wish the UB-820 had this, but apparently not...
Can you please explain the 21:9 feature? Sounds like its somehow for folks with scoped screens like 2.37 or 2.40 but can't picture what this feature is about and how it works.
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post #3687 of 13667 Old 09-10-2018, 08:27 PM
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Originally Posted by David Mathews View Post
Economies of scale. Would imagine simulation market, not just the dci market helps drive down costs for us,

and who knows, maybe real 4k content will be more prevalent someday? I keep being amazed at how fast things progess
Given consumer flat panels are 3080, I doubt it will change. It's kind of like 2K (DCP) vs 1080p (consumer standard).
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post #3688 of 13667 Old 09-10-2018, 08:33 PM
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Originally Posted by markmon1 View Post
If you set the projector to 17:9 mode by sending an image that's 4096x2160, size it to fit the width of a 16:9 screen, and send a 16:9 image to the projector you get small black bars on sides of the image. This is *not* an acceptable situation to me.
And what is keeping you from overscanning top and bottom a tiny bit, so that you fill the full width of the screen?
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post #3689 of 13667 Old 09-10-2018, 08:37 PM
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Originally Posted by 2 Stangs View Post
I noticed they finally changed the dimensions on this year's projectors. Will the old mounting plates still work? Never upgraded a JVC before.
The mounting requirements for the new projectors are exactly the same as the old ones.
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post #3690 of 13667 Old 09-10-2018, 08:39 PM
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Originally Posted by yosh7 View Post
Any word on gaming latency beyond “low latency mode”? Have a Sony HW50ES and considering an upgrade to this. Is JVC comparable to Sony now for gaming? Thanks.
Yes.
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