NEW JVC RS3000/NX9 RS2000/N7 RS1000/N5 Native 4K Projectors Anticipation Thread - Page 14 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #391 of 13653 Old 08-22-2018, 10:17 AM
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Originally Posted by lizrussspike View Post
That is weird @Buddylee123 . My RS420 is 4 ft above my head, and is dead silent in low lamp. I can hear a little noise in high lamp when the dialogue is soft and no action scenes. Otherwise the only real noise I hear is when the RS420 boots up.
Low lamp is fine, it's just eshift and high lamp that annoy me.

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I've heard probably a dozen JVC RSxxx units, most of them in well sorted or dedicated rooms, and I have yet to hear the e-shift buzz. It supposed to sound like an electric razor. I imagine it's unit to unit variance. But it can't be terribly common or I've just gotten very lucky to sample units without it. My hearing is still good to around 12-14KHz.
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post #392 of 13653 Old 08-22-2018, 10:22 AM
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Yeah, too much eshift buzz on my RS57 too.

And at least with that eshift gen, no PQ improvement that I could notice from seating distance on blu ray material.

I've been reading about the eshift PQ improvements over time, but if they still buzz, I'm not gonna use it.
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post #393 of 13653 Old 08-22-2018, 10:31 AM
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On the native 4K units unless there is a killer detail enhancement feature associated with it or it somehow improves the picture tangibly in some other way I don't see any need for e-shift 8K. Just a marketing bullet point. And I would hope JVC would let us turn it off.
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post #394 of 13653 Old 08-22-2018, 10:36 AM
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sorry @Buddylee123 , I should have mentioned that I always have the e-shift engaged, as I really only view 4K material.
Still pretty quiet with e-shift engaged all the time. I guess I am pretty lucky then.
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post #395 of 13653 Old 08-22-2018, 10:38 AM
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Can't happen. Dolby hasn't certified DolbyVision for Home Theater projection systems yet. Can't get a valid license from Dolby without them developing a standard for Home Theater.

I don't even know if DolbyVision will ever come to Home Theater projectors. Only time will tell but it can't happen this year at CEDIA.
It's my understanding that Dolby has been trying for some time to get a projector manufacturer to foot the bill for the cost to develop Dolby Vision for projectors, but hasn't had any takers yet. Among the issues is projection systems, in addition to having significant lower brightness than typical HDR capable UHD TVs, is they have a lot of additional variables that impact peak brightness for HDR (e.g., screen size/gain, zoom setting, lamp brightness setting and lamp aging, dynamic iris settings, etc.). As a result for a given projector the appropriate dynamic tone mapping would vary a lot depending on the specific projector/screen setup.
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post #396 of 13653 Old 08-22-2018, 10:44 AM
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I'd call BS on the Dolby stuff if that is really their concern. If you look at how Dolby Vision is calibrated on a flat panel, it typically requires access to a service menu or more and direct measurements of light output and color volume for the Dolby processing to tweak its internal tone map. There is absolutely NO reason this same type of process couldn't be employed with a projector. A calibrator could access a menu and allow the measurement data to be fed into the projector for the tone map. For those that don't do this, a generic value based on the production color volume and a rough image brightness element could be used (say 100 nits). Most people would still get a VERY usable image.

I think the projector market is just too small for Dolby to care at the moment (which they've actually said to me in person). The rest is just ways of making it sound harder than it would actually be.

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post #397 of 13653 Old 08-22-2018, 10:50 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jeahrens View Post
I've heard probably a dozen JVC RSxxx units, most of them in well sorted or dedicated rooms, and I have yet to hear the e-shift buzz. It supposed to sound like an electric razor. I imagine it's unit to unit variance. But it can't be terribly common or I've just gotten very lucky to sample units without it. My hearing is still good to around 12-14KHz.
I've had two units. Both are audible - you can definitely tell if you turn it on and off. One is barely audible (but I haven't ceiling mounted it yet), the other seems to me to be very loud and annoying (but in reality I'm sure under measurements it would be quiet).

My wife can't hear it on the noisy unit even if I turn it on and off in front of her (or so she says) but for me it is clear as day. I don't know what her hearing is like.

It seems fairly typical for persons to have a couple of units due to other faults to comment on the difference in eShift between units. If you really don't hear any difference on all those units by turning it on and off I imagine maybe you are like my wife and actually just can't hear it.

Slightly off topic - My wife worked in nightclubs as a bartender when she was young; from what I understand people with noise induced hearing loss might well hear high frequencies well, but usually end up with a "hole" of significant attenuation around 4K. The real HF rolloff occurs just as a natural function of age I believe.

As I have two units that behave differently at the moment, and a UMIK/REW; if I get some time I'll try and measure them. With any luck it might be moot if JVC have managed to solve contrast and go to 4K (ain't no way I'd ever enable eShift on a native 4k unit to get "8k").
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post #398 of 13653 Old 08-22-2018, 10:56 AM
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NEW JVC Native 4K Lamp-Based Projectors at IFA & CEDIA 2018 | Anticipation Thread

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Originally Posted by lizrussspike View Post
That is weird @Buddylee123 . My RS420 is 4 ft above my head, and is dead silent in low lamp. I can hear a little noise in high lamp when the dialogue is soft and no action scenes. Otherwise the only real noise I hear is when the RS420 boots up.

It all depends on the noise floor of your room. If you are in a normal room it probably is not audible over backflfround noise including wind, traffic noise, outside AC units, planes. If in a soundproofed theater it is a much quieter experience.

We all have different ability to hear as well. My projector is 6 ft behind and above me and the fan in low lamp is clearly audible with the audio muted but when the movie is playing it is not audible.

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post #399 of 13653 Old 08-22-2018, 11:02 AM
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I would love to see a video of the eshift buzz from anyone with the issue. Off, then On with a DB meter, then with a movie playing. Considering a current model, but scared of the buzz. My old Kuro buzzed when in high power, so I had to leave it in energy saving mode.

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post #400 of 13653 Old 08-22-2018, 11:06 AM
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tracking @farsider3000 , yes with the movie on pause or muted I will hear a slight noise. But when engaged in the movie, the noise is not audible. I keep the room door and try to keep ambient/outside noise to a minimum.
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post #401 of 13653 Old 08-22-2018, 11:08 AM
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I'd call BS on the Dolby stuff if that is really their concern. If you look at how Dolby Vision is calibrated on a flat panel, it typically requires access to a service menu or more and direct measurements of light output and color volume for the Dolby processing to tweak its internal tone map. There is absolutely NO reason this same type of process couldn't be employed with a projector. A calibrator could access a menu and allow the measurement data to be fed into the projector for the tone map. For those that don't do this, a generic value based on the production color volume and a rough image brightness element could be used (say 100 nits). Most people would still get a VERY usable image.

I think the projector market is just too small for Dolby to care at the moment (which they've actually said to me in person). The rest is just ways of making it sound harder than it would actually be.
I could be wrong but if I recall Dolby Cinemas (available in selected AMC Theaters) are equipped with Christie 4K projectors capable of showing Dolby Vision content.

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post #402 of 13653 Old 08-22-2018, 11:10 AM
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I've had two units. Both are audible - you can definitely tell if you turn it on and off. One is barely audible (but I haven't ceiling mounted it yet), the other seems to me to be very loud and annoying (but in reality I'm sure under measurements it would be quiet).

My wife can't hear it on the noisy unit even if I turn it on and off in front of her (or so she says) but for me it is clear as day. I don't know what her hearing is like.

It seems fairly typical for persons to have a couple of units due to other faults to comment on the difference in eShift between units. If you really don't hear any difference on all those units by turning it on and off I imagine maybe you are like my wife and actually just can't hear it.

Slightly off topic - My wife worked in nightclubs as a bartender when she was young; from what I understand people with noise induced hearing loss might well hear high frequencies well, but usually end up with a "hole" of significant attenuation around 4K. The real HF rolloff occurs just as a natural function of age I believe.

As I have two units that behave differently at the moment, and a UMIK/REW; if I get some time I'll try and measure them. With any luck it might be moot if JVC have managed to solve contrast and go to 4K (ain't no way I'd ever enable eShift on a native 4k unit to get "8k").
I'm sure unit to unit variance is a factor as well as hearing acuity. My hearing seems to be quite good with no apparent deficiencies (I don't experience any holes in tone sweeps). More importantly the people I've ridden to the crawls with and who've seen the same setups have never noticed it. I'm not saying it isn't an issue with e-shift. But it can't be a huge epidemic with the sample size and number of people listening/watching. My unit is ceiling mounted about 5' behind the seating. I can easily hear low fan and never hear it. However it just may be low enough that the fan noise and distance conspire to mask it.
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post #403 of 13653 Old 08-22-2018, 11:12 AM
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Originally Posted by Kris Deering View Post
I'd call BS on the Dolby stuff if that is really their concern. If you look at how Dolby Vision is calibrated on a flat panel, it typically requires access to a service menu or more and direct measurements of light output and color volume for the Dolby processing to tweak its internal tone map. There is absolutely NO reason this same type of process couldn't be employed with a projector. A calibrator could access a menu and allow the measurement data to be fed into the projector for the tone map. For those that don't do this, a generic value based on the production color volume and a rough image brightness element could be used (say 100 nits). Most people would still get a VERY usable image.

I think the projector market is just too small for Dolby to care at the moment (which they've actually said to me in person). The rest is just ways of making it sound harder than it would actually be.
I agree that the market is small and that really is the major stumbling block, but I think the tech issue is a real hurdle.

You don't need to calibrate a DV set to get a useable image and I'd be surprised if there was more than a 20% variance in luminance for like TVs at the same settings. But look at the range of luminance you're talking about for projectors - we could be talking systems from well over 200 nits to much less than 100 nits - this means you have to be able to set the peak level for any mapping algorithm to do something sensible. If that is a calibrator option then completely forget about it - you've taken a tiny projector market and made it, what, 10 to 100 times smaller? I really can't see the point of implementing something that needs to be calibrator led - that isn't what Dolby are about.

There are relatively easy ways to solve the tech issues - sensors at the lens reading off the screen could do it - not sure the manufacturers want to do that though.
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post #404 of 13653 Old 08-22-2018, 11:16 AM
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I could be wrong but if I recall Dolby Cinemas (available in selected AMC Theaters) are equipped with Christie 4K projectors capable of showing Dolby Vision content.
While they call it Dolby Vision I >believe< the content is specifically mastered quite differently for the low peak brightness. I don't think it is that closely related to Dolby Vision as used in the home. (at least this is what I read, can't remember where)
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post #405 of 13653 Old 08-22-2018, 11:17 AM
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I could be wrong but if I recall Dolby Cinemas (available in selected AMC Theaters) are equipped with Christie 4K projectors capable of showing Dolby Vision content.
Not related. Dolby Cinema is completley unrelated to consumer Dolby Vision, so it doesn't apply to what we are talking about at all.

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post #406 of 13653 Old 08-22-2018, 11:18 AM
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We have posted about this and I think it has to be about being first to 8K (eshift) in the new 4500 model.
Maybe, to bad there is little to no source material to watch.

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"Be the first" lowering native contrast compared to the previous e-shift 5 generation of projectors for the sake of Native 4K
Hopefully not.
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post #407 of 13653 Old 08-22-2018, 11:21 AM
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I agree that the market is small and that really is the major stumbling block, but I think the tech issue is a real hurdle.

You don't need to calibrate a DV set to get a useable image and I'd be surprised if there was more than a 20% variance in luminance for like TVs at the same settings. But look at the range of luminance you're talking about for projectors - we could be talking systems from well over 200 nits to much less than 100 nits - this means you have to be able to set the peak level for any mapping algorithm to do something sensible. If that is a calibrator option then completely forget about it - you've taken a tiny projector market and made it, what, 10 to 100 times smaller? I really can't see the point of implementing something that needs to be calibrator led - that isn't what Dolby are about.

There are relatively easy ways to solve the tech issues - sensors at the lens reading off the screen could do it - not sure the manufacturers want to do that though.
Let's agree to disagree. I don't see how this hurdle is any different than the default HDR settings we see on projectors now. It isn't like those are setup so that most people can easily use them in a wide variety of setups any more than doing a DV mode that assumes a brightness for best results. It would literally be THE EXACT SAME SITUATION WE HAVE NOW. And just like now, the only way to get the absolute best results would be getting measurements done and entered in to tweak the image to the best result, in other words a calibrator.

A tone map is a tone map. They have to be based on a display peak light. They don't know it now with the HDR modes on these projectors, they are just using some random assumption. They could apply the exact same assumption as the default for DV.

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post #408 of 13653 Old 08-22-2018, 11:26 AM
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As for the comments on 8K eshift. I can't imagine that this wouldn't be a feature that can be turned off and on, just like EVERY eShift implementation to date has been. It is a marketing move, but this is CE and every company is always trying to figure out a way to differentiate, and we all know that 8K flat panels are due to the market next year, so it will be a buzz word despite being GROSSLY unnecessary (especially at those screen sizes). As for whether there is any benefit? It would, from a technical standpoint, increase the MTF for 4K content viewing. The image would like slightly softer (but even if it was 8K native, it would look softer as more resolution at this point just makes pixels less and less obvious, which will make the image seem softer by default) but the MTF for resolving native 4K would go up. If you watch that home theater geeks podcast that was linked earlier with Rod Sterling from JVC he talks about how eShift increases the MTF for 1080p viewing, it would be the same concept.
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post #409 of 13653 Old 08-22-2018, 11:42 AM
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It's my understanding that Dolby has been trying for some time to get a projector manufacturer to foot the bill for the cost to develop Dolby Vision for projectors, but hasn't had any takers yet. Among the issues is projection systems, in addition to having significant lower brightness than typical HDR capable UHD TVs, is they have a lot of additional variables that impact peak brightness for HDR (e.g., screen size/gain, zoom setting, lamp brightness setting and lamp aging, dynamic iris settings, etc.). As a result for a given projector the appropriate dynamic tone mapping would vary a lot depending on the specific projector/screen setup.
They probably want too much $. I'll take DV in lieu of 3D, thanks.

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post #410 of 13653 Old 08-22-2018, 11:42 AM
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On the native 4K units unless there is a killer detail enhancement feature associated with it or it somehow improves the picture tangibly in some other way I don't see any need for e-shift 8K. Just a marketing bullet point. And I would hope JVC would let us turn it off.
It makes no sense to have E-shift locked on, so I don't know why anybody would be up at arms about this possibility. As for using 8K E-shift, I would be inclined to say, I would not use it. But I also said that about the dynamic iris, when I bought my RS600. Well guess what, I tried the dynamic iris and liked what it did, so I used it on my 600 and use it now on my RS640. Same thing may happen with E-shift 8K. Keep in mind, E-shift was not invented, when the housing was designed for the current JVC's. The new models are all new from the ground up, so E-shift might be a lot quieter. We will just have to wait and see. Myself, I am hopefully optimistic for a great new design.
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post #411 of 13653 Old 08-22-2018, 11:42 AM
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Let's agree to disagree. I don't see how this hurdle is any different than the default HDR settings we see on projectors now. It isn't like those are setup so that most people can easily use them in a wide variety of setups any more than doing a DV mode that assumes a brightness for best results. It would literally be THE EXACT SAME SITUATION WE HAVE NOW. And just like now, the only way to get the absolute best results would be getting measurements done and entered in to tweak the image to the best result, in other words a calibrator.

A tone map is a tone map. They have to be based on a display peak light. They don't know it now with the HDR modes on these projectors, they are just using some random assumption. They could apply the exact same assumption as the default for DV.
Sure, but Dolby, without solving this, would be putting their name to something which is crap, much like the built-in HDR curves in the current JVC. JVC are free to do that of their own will with their own HDR tone map implementation, but you just wouldn't put your brand name, which is supposed to be synonymous with HDR excellence, on something that didn't actually solve what the customer wanted without them having to engage the services of a pro.

As far as I'm aware none of the Dolby techs for the home for anything require calibration. The closest would be AVRs that need to have levels set appropriately per channel, but this is outside of Dolby's sphere (the DD decoder just outputs correct levels and assumes the AVR sorts any channel imbalance). So I actually see calibrator based options being at odds with Dolby's modus operandi of providing a tech that does a job.

I can also imagine another hurdle. It is quite possible that the tech algorithms used by Dolby actually doesn't scale very well; they don't have to when they're dealing with displays that aren't so far away from the actual required peak brightness. The level of adjustment required to mangle the DV HDR range to a typical PJ might need them to revisit their algorithms.

In the IM stuff Lumagen did they had a very clear design goal - they knew most of their customers were doing this for projection and needed to cover a very big range of adjustment. I wouldn't like to bet the current DV implementation is even suitable for the job of tone mapping DV mastered content for projection.
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post #412 of 13653 Old 08-22-2018, 11:45 AM
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Maybe, to bad there is little to no source material to watch.



Hopefully not.

They will promote it as being able to upconvert 4K material to 8K in my opinion.


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post #413 of 13653 Old 08-22-2018, 11:48 AM
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Originally Posted by enricoclaudio View Post
I could be wrong but if I recall Dolby Cinemas (available in selected AMC Theaters) are equipped with Christie 4K projectors capable of showing Dolby Vision content.
Yes, but that will be based upon a specific design, which you do not have with home theater. With home theater, we have a huge difference in nits due to screen size, screen gain, throw and projector used.
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post #414 of 13653 Old 08-22-2018, 11:51 AM
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Originally Posted by farsider3000 View Post
They will promote it as being able to upconvert 4K material to 8K in my opinion.
True, but we know how that works out, not as good as having a movie filmed in 8K, transferred in 8K, and displayed in 8K.
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post #415 of 13653 Old 08-22-2018, 11:55 AM
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Originally Posted by Cleveland Plasma View Post
Maybe, to bad there is little to no source material to watch.
Upscale. People upscale 1080p to 4K now. You could still do that ( and watch 4K at 4K resolution ). Or, you could upscale 4K to 8K. Or upscale everything to 8K. Man, I'm dying to see " Wheel of Fortune " at 8K myself.
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post #416 of 13653 Old 08-22-2018, 11:56 AM
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Sure, but Dolby, without solving this, would be putting their name to something which is crap, much like the built-in HDR curves in the current JVC. JVC are free to do that of their own will with their own HDR tone map implementation, but you just wouldn't put your brand name, which is supposed to be synonymous with HDR excellence, on something that didn't actually solve what the customer wanted without them having to engage the services of a pro.

As far as I'm aware none of the Dolby techs for the home for anything require calibration. The closest would be AVRs that need to have levels set appropriately per channel, but this is outside of Dolby's sphere (the DD decoder just outputs correct levels and assumes the AVR sorts any channel imbalance). So I actually see calibrator based options being at odds with Dolby's modus operandi of providing a tech that does a job.

I can also imagine another hurdle. It is quite possible that the tech algorithms used by Dolby actually doesn't scale very well; they don't have to when they're dealing with displays that aren't so far away from the actual required peak brightness. The level of adjustment required to mangle the DV HDR range to a typical PJ might need them to revisit their algorithms.

In the IM stuff Lumagen did they had a very clear design goal - they knew most of their customers were doing this for projection and needed to cover a very big range of adjustment. I wouldn't like to bet the current DV implementation is even suitable for the job of tone mapping DV mastered content for projection.
Hard to say on this. Would the end consumer actually think that Dolby is crap vs the display running it? Did people think HDR sucked because it didn't look good on the first JVCs or did they think that JVC didn't implement it well. Plus, I don't think HDR looking bad with projector faults isn't because the peak value isn't right, it is because the tone map could be better (and it has gotten better every time). With DV you would have an ideal tone map based on a generic peak, so there is a FAR better chance of it looking good out of the box IMHO. Plus they could implement a sliding scale for peak brightness like the Radiance Pro and Panasonic UB820 do, which both have demonstrated works VERY well for varying setups.

As for tone mapping down to low light, that isn't an issue for Dolby at all. In fact, it has already been approved by several studios to actually tone map down the HDR grade to SDR (exactly the same 100 nits I was talking about before) for consumer use on pre-recorded or streaming use. Universal does this for their streaming content already, the SDR grades are just tone mapped from the HDR grade.

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post #417 of 13653 Old 08-22-2018, 12:07 PM
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Originally Posted by Kris Deering View Post
As for the comments on 8K eshift. I can't imagine that this wouldn't be a feature that can be turned off and on, just like EVERY eShift implementation to date has been. It is a marketing move, but this is CE and every company is always trying to figure out a way to differentiate, and we all know that 8K flat panels are due to the market next year, so it will be a buzz word despite being GROSSLY unnecessary (especially at those screen sizes). As for whether there is any benefit? It would, from a technical standpoint, increase the MTF for 4K content viewing. The image would like slightly softer (but even if it was 8K native, it would look softer as more resolution at this point just makes pixels less and less obvious, which will make the image seem softer by default) but the MTF for resolving native 4K would go up. If you watch that home theater geeks podcast that was linked earlier with Rod Sterling from JVC he talks about how eShift increases the MTF for 1080p viewing, it would be the same concept.


Kris you cannot turn off eshift in the newer model JVC units when they are fed a 4K signal.


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post #418 of 13653 Old 08-22-2018, 12:10 PM
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Thinking more about it, I could see Dolby having an issue with calling this type of implementation HDR. Even Dolby Cinema is referred to as Extended Dynamic Range vs HDR. Since most projectors that are doing HDR are actually closer to real SDR levels (SDR is graded at 100 nits), it is a bit of a misnomer. So that may cause them hesitation. Hard to say.
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post #419 of 13653 Old 08-22-2018, 12:14 PM
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Originally Posted by farsider3000 View Post
Kris you cannot turn off eshift in the newer model JVC units when they are fed a 4K signal.


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Correct, because the native resolution is 1080p. But if the native resolution of the projector was 4K, I would expect that you only HAD to have eShift on with a native 8K signal. So again, same situation we are in now. I can't imagine them doing this any different.

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post #420 of 13653 Old 08-22-2018, 12:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by farsider3000 View Post
Kris you cannot turn off eshift in the newer model JVC units when they are fed a 4K signal.


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That is not the same thing. With the current units, only way they can display 4K is with e_shift. That is why you can't turn it off. Now if the current units required you to use E-shift with 1080P, then you would have a point. With new units, if native 4K, then E-shift would not be required for display of 4K or lower. Only if you wanted 8K would E-shift be required. With a 4K native projector displaying 4K, no upconversion is needed. That is why E-shift would not be required. Worrying about locked E-shift is a non argument.
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