NEW JVC RS3000/NX9 RS2000/N7 RS1000/N5 Native 4K Projectors Anticipation Thread - Page 15 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #421 of 13653 Old 08-22-2018, 01:32 PM
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Originally Posted by Kris Deering View Post
As for tone mapping down to low light, that isn't an issue for Dolby at all. In fact, it has already been approved by several studios to actually tone map down the HDR grade to SDR (exactly the same 100 nits I was talking about before) for consumer use on pre-recorded or streaming use. Universal does this for their streaming content already, the SDR grades are just tone mapped from the HDR grade.
I wasn't aware of that, cool. That's at least one hurdle off the list.

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Thinking more about it, I could see Dolby having an issue with calling this type of implementation HDR. Even Dolby Cinema is referred to as Extended Dynamic Range vs HDR. Since most projectors that are doing HDR are actually closer to real SDR levels (SDR is graded at 100 nits), it is a bit of a misnomer. So that may cause them hesitation. Hard to say.
It is a weird one to think about - we've already spoken in the Lumagen thread about the misgivings I have for projection based HDR. I'm trying to stop thinking about it as HDR now, and just treat it in my mind as "try and get a nice useable image so I can watch all this content that really isn't being mastered with projection in mind".

The whole market is really turning upside down and inside out... the home releases are now actually something that hasn't been seen in the cinemas. Who knows if the HDR presentation is really related any more to the theatrical release that the creatives all signed off on. It's all a bit unsatisfactory and unsavoury.
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post #422 of 13653 Old 08-22-2018, 01:37 PM
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Originally Posted by Mike Garrett View Post
That is not the same thing. With the current units, only way they can display 4K is with e_shift. That is why you can't turn it off. Now if the current units required you to use E-shift with 1080P, then you would have a point. With new units, if native 4K, then E-shift would not be required for display of 4K or lower. Only if you wanted 8K would E-shift be required. With a 4K native projector displaying 4K, no upconversion is needed. That is why E-shift would not be required. Worrying about locked E-shift is a non argument.
It is a shame that JVC on the 1080p eShift "4k" units didn't give the option to accept 4K input, downscale it to 1080p, and disable eShift (given they're already throwing away some pixel data to do the "4k" eShift from a 4k signal). I know it is backwards, but I was seriously considering doing that in my Lumagen Pro to swat that fly above my head...
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post #423 of 13653 Old 08-22-2018, 01:39 PM
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Originally Posted by Kris Deering View Post
Correct, because the native resolution is 1080p. But if the native resolution of the projector was 4K, I would expect that you only HAD to have eShift on with a native 8K signal. So again, same situation we are in now. I can't imagine them doing this any different.

I agree with your logic.


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post #424 of 13653 Old 08-22-2018, 02:01 PM
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Originally Posted by bobof View Post
I wasn't aware of that, cool. That's at least one hurdle off the list.


It is a weird one to think about - we've already spoken in the Lumagen thread about the misgivings I have for projection based HDR. I'm trying to stop thinking about it as HDR now, and just treat it in my mind as "try and get a nice useable image so I can watch all this content that really isn't being mastered with projection in mind".

The whole market is really turning upside down and inside out... the home releases are now actually something that hasn't been seen in the cinemas. Who knows if the HDR presentation is really related any more to the theatrical release that the creatives all signed off on. It's all a bit unsatisfactory and unsavoury.
I'm kind of the same mind. I wasn't that taken with HDR when I first saw it, and it still didn't do much for me with the custom curves we saw on the JVC and 4K laser Sony at Ricky's, so I've been more than happy running 4K tone mapped to SDR with WCG using the Linker. I've also seen some people who were previously happy with HDR now saying they prefer tone mapping to SDR. I think some have been saying to use the SDR/2020 option in MadVR and from the new Panasonic 820 IIRC which does a very good job apparently.

I know some people do like it a lot, especially those with the lumens for it, but I wonder if we're starting to see a slow move away from HDR in the same way we did with 3D, at least for projectors.

It's still early days and just speculation on my part and it could change, but I prefer a dimmer image which for me is more 'cinematic' and more in keeping with traditional theatre. I've not seen Dolby Vision at a theatre, but that does seem to get good feedback so maybe that, or an emulation of it, may be the only way to get it working in a way that people will find acceptable (and assuming no more tweaking on a per movie basis as seems to be the case with some movies).

Like you say, having a sensor in the pj to get the necessary data for it to be implemented correctly should work, and I seem to remember there was a pj that had a colorimiter built in for self calibration, but I think that was relatively high end.
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post #425 of 13653 Old 08-22-2018, 02:09 PM
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It is a shame that JVC on the 1080p eShift "4k" units didn't give the option to accept 4K input, downscale it to 1080p, and disable eShift (given they're already throwing away some pixel data to do the "4k" eShift from a 4k signal). I know it is backwards, but I was seriously considering doing that in my Lumagen Pro to swat that fly above my head...
I don't think the JVC has an image processor that would be able to downscale good enough for it to be reasonable uplift in image quality.

I also don't really understand what it is you want to accomplish? The eshift is meant to provide more detail, by disabling it you're effectively removing that detail you'd gain by going 4k. Is it because of the noise issues and the mechanical setup of eshift? Or because of the unstable image and artifacts?

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post #426 of 13653 Old 08-22-2018, 02:13 PM
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I'm kind of the same mind. I wasn't that taken with HDR when I first saw it, and it still didn't do much for me with the custom curves we saw on the JVC and 4K laser Sony at Ricky's, so I've been more than happy running 4K tone mapped to SDR with WCG using the Linker. I've also seen some people who were previously happy with HDR now saying they prefer tone mapping to SDR. I think some have been saying to use the SDR/2020 option in MadVR and from the new Panasonic 820 IIRC which does a very good job apparently.

I know some people do like it a lot, especially those with the lumens for it, but I wonder if we're starting to see a slow move away from HDR in the same way we did with 3D, at least for projectors.

It's still early days and just speculation on my part and it could change, but I prefer a dimmer image which for me is more 'cinematic' and more in keeping with traditional theatre. I've not seen Dolby Vision at a theatre, but that does seem to get good feedback so maybe that, or an emulation of it, may be the only way to get it working in a way that people will find acceptable (and assuming no more tweaking on a per movie basis as seems to be the case with some movies).

Like you say, having a sensor in the pj to get the necessary data for it to be implemented correctly should work, and I seem to remember there was a pj that had a colorimiter built in for self calibration, but I think that was relatively high end.
Maybe I'm crazy, but I'm seeing a lot more depth and contrast when I enable HDR. While an SDR image feels more uniform in brightness level all throughout the picture, making it a lot less contrasty. I have no idea what a tone mapped HDR to SDR image looks like.

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post #427 of 13653 Old 08-22-2018, 02:13 PM
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Yeah, too much eshift buzz on my RS57 too.

And at least with that eshift gen, no PQ improvement that I could notice from seating distance on blu ray material.

I've been reading about the eshift PQ improvements over time, but if they still buzz, I'm not gonna use it.
To test, you probably need to send it a Native 4k signal with reference level UHD disk (one mastered in 4k)...

I don't think e-shift is worth it for 1080p sounds like it.

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post #428 of 13653 Old 08-22-2018, 02:16 PM
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I don't think the JVC has an image processor that would be able to downscale good enough for it to be reasonable uplift in image quality.

I also don't really understand what it is you want to accomplish? The eshift is meant to provide more detail, by disabling it you're effectively removing that detail you'd gain by going 4k. Is it because of the noise issues and the mechanical setup of eshift? Or because of the unstable image and artifacts?
He noted it was because of the audio noise of e-shift.

Downscaling has one benefit as you already know.
It is beneficial for making streaming come out at a higher res, downscaling 4k to 1080p.
Of course probably better to leave it at Native 4k and let E-shift do its thing.
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post #429 of 13653 Old 08-22-2018, 02:28 PM
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To test, you probably need to send it a Native 4k signal with reference level UHD disk (one mastered in 4k)...

I don't think e-shift is worth it for 1080p sounds like it.
Eshift isn't worth it with 1080p content if you use the JVC upscaler. It's VERY much worth it if you use MadVR to upscale the picture to RGB 4K23 4:4:4 12bits and send that to the JVC. Very, very near UHD Bluray (from a resolution point of view, not talking about WCG/HDR obviously), especially for the titles pre-upscaled to 4K from a 2K DI (the majority).

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post #430 of 13653 Old 08-22-2018, 02:38 PM
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Eshift isn't worth it with 1080p content if you use the JVC upscaler. It's VERY much worth it if you use MadVR to upscale the picture to RGB 4K23 4:4:4 12bits and send that to the JVC. Very, very near UHD Bluray (from a resolution point of view, not talking about WCG/HDR obviously), especially for the titles pre-upscaled to 4K from a 2K DI (the majority).
I would love to see MadVR implemented into a Roku...
I still find HTPC stuff a big headache, and I always have a PC connected (so it shouldn't be).

To me it just feels completely unnatural, almost like I am violating the laws of home theater.
I also only have a 1060 Video Card, think I'd need a 1070 I guess to do UHD directly unless I rip it first (which I am too lazy).

My PC even sent me an email stating that it felt violated, I am running AI software and it often gives feedback on how I use it. (only kidding)
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post #431 of 13653 Old 08-22-2018, 02:38 PM
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I don't think the JVC has an image processor that would be able to downscale good enough for it to be reasonable uplift in image quality.

I also don't really understand what it is you want to accomplish? The eshift is meant to provide more detail, by disabling it you're effectively removing that detail you'd gain by going 4k. Is it because of the noise issues and the mechanical setup of eshift? Or because of the unstable image and artifacts?
He noted it was because of the audio noise of e-shift.

Downscaling has one benefit as you already know.
It is beneficial for making streaming come out at a higher res, downscaling 4k to 1080p.
Of course probably better to leave it at Native 4k and let E-shift do its thing.
Sorry but I don't really get what you're saying. For streaming online content we use encoders and decoders to package and shrink and compress the data for easy streaming transport.

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post #432 of 13653 Old 08-22-2018, 02:39 PM
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I also don't really understand what it is you want to accomplish? The eshift is meant to provide more detail, by disabling it you're effectively removing that detail you'd gain by going 4k. Is it because of the noise issues and the mechanical setup of eshift? Or because of the unstable image and artifacts?
Yes, just to avoid the eShift mechanical noise. It looks like it won't enter my mind as a thought any more though as the unit I just received is barely audible.
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post #433 of 13653 Old 08-22-2018, 02:41 PM
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Eshift isn't worth it with 1080p content if you use the JVC upscaler. It's VERY much worth it if you use MadVR to upscale the picture to RGB 4K23 4:4:4 12bits and send that to the JVC. Very, very near UHD Bluray (from a resolution point of view, not talking about WCG/HDR obviously), especially for the titles pre-upscaled to 4K from a 2K DI (the majority).
I like how we have had all this talk about 8K and yet most movies are still just 2K DI upscaled to 4K
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post #434 of 13653 Old 08-22-2018, 02:41 PM
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Sorry but I don't really get what you're saying. For streaming online content we use encoders and decoders to package and shrink and compress the data for easy streaming transport.
Just that some scalers are better than others, so if you can download the 4k to a Roku and then output it to another 4k device to downscale or maybe even output it on the Roku as 1080p, it may come out better looking than streaming Native 1080p due to lossy compression. I don't know, I never tried it, was just a thought.

I need to buy a new Roku myself.

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post #435 of 13653 Old 08-22-2018, 02:44 PM
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I also don't really understand what it is you want to accomplish? The eshift is meant to provide more detail, by disabling it you're effectively removing that detail you'd gain by going 4k. Is it because of the noise issues and the mechanical setup of eshift? Or because of the unstable image and artifacts?
Yes, just to avoid the eShift mechanical noise. It looks like it won't enter my mind as a thought any more though as the unit I just received is barely audible.
Yes, if it was that bad before, it was simply a bad unit. The eshift is great here as well in terms of noise.

But lamp on high is a bit distracting tho.

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post #436 of 13653 Old 08-22-2018, 02:45 PM
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Just that some scalers are better than others, so if you can send the 4k to a Roku and then output it as 1080p, it may come out better looking than streaming Native 1080p due to lossy compression. I don't know, I never tried it, was just a thought.
It is very true; but not because of the quality of the scaler.
I used to do exactly this with my 1080p projector - use an HDFURY Vertex to make the AppleTV 4K grab the 4K stream, and then downscale it to 1080p.

The 4K streams are often much better than the 1080p ones. So there is often a notable quality bump by taking the 4K stream and downscaling it to show at 1080p.

But in any case, streaming had nothing to do with it in the context of this discussion now - for me the argument was only about mechanical noise.
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post #437 of 13653 Old 08-22-2018, 02:46 PM
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I like how we have had all this talk about 8K and yet most movies are still just 2K DI upscaled to 4K
8k seems worthless to me, seems like it would actually be worse by introducing potential noise.
However, I don't know, apparently the camera MFR's are forced to use better sensors when going with a higher res (I mean in the professional industry).
Of course in the consumer industry they just lie and call it Megapixels, which means almost nothing really to the end result these days.

I question though that the camera sensors can do even a near high enough MTF to do what would be considered 'real 8k', meaning can you zoom the image by 2x and would it reasonably maintain the same amount of detail as the same scene shot natively on a 4k camera (meaning if the shot was already zoomed in by analog means in 4k).

So I guess 8k may have some benefit for recording, but I would seriously doubt it would in playback.

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post #438 of 13653 Old 08-22-2018, 02:49 PM
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It is very true; but not because of the quality of the scaler.
I used to do exactly this with my 1080p projector - use an HDFURY Vertex to make the AppleTV 4K grab the 4K stream, and then downscale it to 1080p.

The 4K streams are often much better than the 1080p ones. So there is often a notable quality bump by taking the 4K stream and downscaling it to show at 1080p.

But in any case, streaming had nothing to do with it - for me the argument was only about mechanical noise.
Right, it has to do with first the quality of the source stream, and second the quality of the scaler.
Though I would assume most devices downscaling algorithms are pretty much the same, unlike upscaling algorithms which tend to vary.
Though I never really paid much attention to downscaling honestly.

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post #439 of 13653 Old 08-22-2018, 02:51 PM
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I like how we have had all this talk about 8K and yet most movies are still just 2K DI upscaled to 4K
Games will support 8k the moment there's a video card that can run it. So I think somewhere mid to end next year, there will be many many possibilities for 8k content if you're a gamer. I was actually expecting the newly announced nvidia cards to support 8k but apparently still too early.

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post #440 of 13653 Old 08-22-2018, 02:55 PM
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Games will support 8k the moment there's a video card that can run it. So I think somewhere mid to end next year, there will be many many possibilities for 8k content if you're a gamer. I was actually expecting the newly announced nvidia cards to support 8k but apparently still too early.
I could see MAYBE some benefit to 8k in gaming for anti-aliasing, but that's getting VERY harsh performance wise.

The next big thing in gaming appears to be real-time ray tracing, hence instead of the developers rendering objects and storing them on your drive...
Parts of a game will have some AI to render certain parts of the game in real-time.

The advantage is it can look more realistic by modifying the 3 dimensional shape of light, rather than just within the confines of how Nvidia or a game engine exposes the light shading.
There are other advantages too, but I think the technique is TOO complex to implement, so I expect it will not be used much until someone makes a better API for it to auto-integrate.
It might take many many years.

If they ever figure out how to do it correctly, everything will look more realistic...
(overly shiny and contrasty compared to most of the real world, but in a realistic type virtual way)

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post #441 of 13653 Old 08-22-2018, 03:01 PM
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I could see MAYBE some benefit to 8k in gaming for anti-aliasing, but that's getting VERY harsh performance wise.

The next big thing in gaming appears to be real-time ray tracing, hence instead of the developers rendering objects and storing them on your drive...
Parts of a game will have some AI to render certain parts of the game in real-time.

The advantage is it can look more realistic by modifying the 3 dimensional shape of light, rather than just within the confines of how Nvidia or a game engine exposes the light shading.
There are other advantages too, but I think the technique is TOO complex to implement, so I expect it will not be used much until someone makes a better API for it to auto-integrate.
It might take many many years.

If they ever figure out how to do it correctly, everything will look more realistic...
(overly shiny and contrasty compared to most of the real world, but in a realistic type virtual way)
There's not going to be a real benefit for 8k at all for projectors really. I'm not a big fan of that jump. BUT there should be some content available.

As for ray tracing, it's a technique already very widely used for renders. It's basically a trace of light that's being calculated as it bounces around you. Giving more realism to reflections as they are realistically simulated. Hence the name ray tracing. It's very computational, but will make live rendering a lot more like a CG movie.

I think it will be pretty easy to implement actually, as there are stories the current demonstrations they were giving were built in a matter of weeks. Also, it's a collaboration with Microsoft I believe to integrate it directly into the DX API.

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post #442 of 13653 Old 08-22-2018, 03:03 PM
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Games will support 8k the moment there's a video card that can run it. So I think somewhere mid to end next year, there will be many many possibilities for 8k content if you're a gamer. I was actually expecting the newly announced nvidia cards to support 8k but apparently still too early.
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I could see MAYBE some benefit to 8k in gaming for anti-aliasing, but that's getting VERY harsh performance wise.

The next big thing in gaming appears to be real-time ray tracing, hence instead of the developers rendering objects and storing them on your drive...
Parts of a game will have some AI to render certain parts of the game in real-time.

The advantage is it can look more realistic by modifying the 3 dimensional shape of light, rather than just within the confines of how Nvidia or a game engine exposes the light shading.
There are other advantages too, but I think the technique is TOO complex to implement, so I expect it will not be used much until someone makes a better API for it to auto-integrate.
It might take many many years.

If they ever figure out how to do it correctly, everything will look more realistic...
(overly shiny and contrasty compared to most of the real world, but in a realistic type virtual way)
8K games could be cool and as stated above it would make anti-aliasing almost not needed. Going from 1080p to 1440p was a huge jump for me but I can't run 4K on my PC at 60 fps so I will stick with 1440p for now. Running games at 8K is a good few years off. The next Xbox has already been stated to target 4K at 60 fps, which will be nice, and NVIDIA's new cards have taken an interesting turn with the ray tracing. The games they showed using ray tracing were running at 1080p and could still barely hold 60 fps, not a good sign.


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post #443 of 13653 Old 08-22-2018, 03:19 PM
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There's not going to be a real benefit for 8k at all for projectors really. I'm not a big fan of that jump. BUT there should be some content available.

As for ray tracing, it's a technique already very widely used for renders. It's basically a trace of light that's being calculated as it bounces around you. Giving more realism to reflections as they are realistically simulated. Hence the name ray tracing. It's very computational, but will make live rendering a lot more like a CG movie.

I think it will be pretty easy to implement actually, as there are stories the current demonstrations they were giving were built in a matter of weeks. Also, it's a collaboration with Microsoft I believe to integrate it directly into the DX API.
It is not used widely in gaming from my understanding, I am not a rendering expert, though I have done rendering myself for other purposes.
However, too many polygons and/or too much real-time computation is the end result, but Nvidia claims to have fixed the issue.

It's definitely complicated to implement in gaming though, not for movies because things are pre-rendered.
Dynamic lighting and rendering is always complicated in gaming design, they have to update the engines, retrain the rendering artists how to comply, and on and on.

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post #444 of 13653 Old 08-22-2018, 03:22 PM
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The games they showed using ray tracing were running at 1080p and could still barely hold 60 fps, not a good sign.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mLIgfT04wsY
Yah, it has issues right now, but it's their first attempt at optimizing the ray tracing algorithms.
It might take several years to perfect for gaming.

Hopefully they will make more games in a style I can keep up with, I just like to go slow and explore realistic looking graphics.
I am not a gamer in a traditional sense, will occasionally partake in something.

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post #445 of 13653 Old 08-22-2018, 03:36 PM
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Is e-shift that noisy? My projector is only 4.5' from my seating position but it's dead silent even in high lamp mode.



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What cabinet are you using for your components and projector?

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post #446 of 13653 Old 08-22-2018, 03:52 PM
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What cabinet are you using for your components and projector?
Salamander Synergy 402 + Synergy Extension for the components/projector and Synergy Core Module + Synergy Media Drawer for the amps.

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post #447 of 13653 Old 08-22-2018, 04:29 PM
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The next big thing in gaming appears to be real-time ray tracing, hence instead of the developers rendering objects and storing them on your drive...
Parts of a game will have some AI to render certain parts of the game in real-time.
I know amazing isn't it.

I remember in the late 80's that it used to take days to render simple objects using a ray tracing program.

Now it is real time at 20 fps.
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post #448 of 13653 Old 08-22-2018, 04:30 PM
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8K games could be cool and as stated above it would make anti-aliasing almost not needed. Going from 1080p to 1440p was a huge jump for me but I can run 4K on my PC at 60 fps so I will stick with 1440p for now. Running games at 8K is a good few years off. The next Xbox has already been stated to target 4K at 60 fps, which will be nice, and NVIDIA's new cards have taken an interesting turn with the ray tracing. The games they showed using ray tracing were running at 1080p and could still barely hold 60 fps, not a good sign.



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mLIgfT04wsY

I like your post. I love graphics tech and gaming. We don’t need higher resolution. Just look at how amazing a HD Blu-ray looks compared to the best current gen game running at 4K or higher. Ray tracing and other technologies will finally allow movie like graphics in my opinion. I hope the next Xbox and PS5 both have at least the ability to utilize some raytracing. Cool stuff.


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post #449 of 13653 Old 08-22-2018, 05:19 PM
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post #450 of 13653 Old 08-22-2018, 05:35 PM
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I like your post. I love graphics tech and gaming. We don’t need higher resolution. Just look at how amazing a HD Blu-ray looks compared to the best current gen game running at 4K or higher. Ray tracing and other technologies will finally allow movie like graphics in my opinion. I hope the next Xbox and PS5 both have at least the ability to utilize some raytracing. Cool stuff.


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I like the tech behind gaming almost as much as I like playing them. I hope AMD can get their act together with their graphics cards because NVIDIA is really unchallenged at this point. In every previous new release of graphics cards it's been mostly about increasing the teraflop performance, but NVIDIA is so far ahead of AMD that they didn't have to focus on that alone. They were able to bring out new cards that are faster and include technology for ray tracing. The only thing that concerns me would be this turning into an NVIDIA specific feature and AMD being left out. AMD needs their graphics division to pull off something like their CPU division did with Ryzen, which lit a fire under Intel.
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