NEW JVC RS3000/NX9 RS2000/N7 RS1000/N5 Native 4K Projectors Anticipation Thread - Page 168 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #5011 of 13667 Old 09-25-2018, 06:56 PM
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Originally Posted by kaotikr1 View Post
Is it possible that some of us are more susceptible to input lag than others? I want the lowest input lag possible, I fully believe it makes a difference.

We have a ton of posts on contrast, iris, flicker, syncing, etc..etc...etc... all things that bother some people more than others. The input lag just happens to bother a few of us.
It absolutely bothers me too.

But I think a mouse is the ultimate lag tester, you sure as heck notice lag with a mouse well before any game controller. 50+ ms feels drunk. 132ms on the old e shift units was insanely unusable where I almost couldn't accurately even click on anything without stopping hovering over it for a good half second.

40ms seriously feels like essentially no lag is happening. That tells me that somewhere around 2 frames or under is the magic mark.

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post #5012 of 13667 Old 09-25-2018, 06:56 PM
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Originally Posted by Mike Garrett View Post
Glasses will probably work, but you would need a JVC emitter. Now how well the glasses work, partly depends on your screen. If your screen retains polarization, then brightness can vary, as you move your head.
Why would your screen need to retain polarization for active shutter glasses? There is no polarizer on the projector output, and hence none of significance on the screen itself. The glasses are showing eye sequential alternating frames, which the glasses block with an active LC lens, no?

Or is this a passive glasses system with a polarization module in front of the lens?
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post #5013 of 13667 Old 09-25-2018, 06:59 PM
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Originally Posted by KarlKlammer View Post
Raphael Vogt is a known calibrator in germany. I don't think he is an AVS member, because he hates forums.

You can try the contact information on his website
http://www.av-consultant.de/impressum.html
Thanks. I reached out to him with some questions. Let's see if we get some details.

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Originally Posted by zombie10k View Post
Hi, I posted this earlier, the UB900 requires one of the HDFury devices to engage the SDR/BT2020 tone mapping. The new UB820 that was just released allows the tone mapping right out of the box.

One of the big shootout comparisons will be the JVC tone mapping vs. the excellent UB820. The best case scenario would be great tone mapping on the JVC so any UHD source can be used.
In addition, I would like to add to that comparison a carefully crafted custom curve from Javs, Manni and others that are skilled in the art.
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post #5014 of 13667 Old 09-25-2018, 07:06 PM
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Originally Posted by grendelrt View Post
The video just posted with Vincent's review showed 47ms. Timestamped below.

https://youtu.be/i2XCR4Zy68k?t=10m33s
Mother! I was prepared for a huge box, but that is HUGE.
It dwarf’s Vincent’s torso!!

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post #5015 of 13667 Old 09-25-2018, 07:11 PM
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Originally Posted by LumenChip View Post
Mother! I was prepared for a huge box, but that is HUGE.
Nah. It's dinky. Ask Craig.


==
Yeah, it is about as big in the cross section as the 4500 but not as long.

That's been discussed in this thread, ummm, a fair bit back.
What, you didn't start from the beginning to keep/catch up with the rest of us!?
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post #5016 of 13667 Old 09-25-2018, 07:40 PM
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Originally Posted by CrazyEddie View Post
Banish that man from the forum.

This is no place for a man who reasons like that.
@griffindodd , since this thread is so slow, here's a blast from the past showing that there is nothing new under the sun.

Only throwing a better image of that sun.

This was in response to a post by @Bytehoven about a decade ago:
"A near infinite permutation of judgement calls is made in this game. As such, every individual must make their own decisions about what can, and cannot, be compromised and which assorted tradeoffs combine to be "good enough"."

== edit
For more amusement, consider the full text of that post I wrote then, to a recent post above where I stated "I live in a bat cave".

Reckon it's pretty obvious I succumbed to the addiction.
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post #5017 of 13667 Old 09-25-2018, 07:57 PM
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What I'd like to know is what is the real difference in native contrast between the NX5, NX7, and NX9 when all are in low lamp, static iris wide open? Is it the clamping down/depth of the static iris in the NX7 and NX9 that give it the better contrast figures than the NX5?

Let's take a step back. If someone is using these for HDR, then presumably the iris will be wide open for max light output. Then is the difference in native contrast between the three machines going to be negligible?
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post #5018 of 13667 Old 09-25-2018, 08:11 PM
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Originally Posted by CrazyEddie View Post
@griffindodd , since this thread is so slow, here's a blast from the past showing that there is nothing new under the sun.

Only throwing a better image of that sun.

This was in response to a post by @Bytehoven about a decade ago:
"A near infinite permutation of judgement calls is made in this game. As such, every individual must make their own decisions about what can, and cannot, be compromised and which assorted tradeoffs combine to be "good enough"."

== edit
For more amusement, consider the full text of that post I wrote then, to a recent post above where I stated "I live in a bat cave".

Reckon it's pretty obvious I succumbed to the addiction.
Indeed. All I do know for sure is that I have my theater room and bar to complete before I can even think of picking out equipment appropriate for the room and my goals. At least as long as I am in this situation then I have a good excuse for infinite window shopping without ever having to make a decision.
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post #5019 of 13667 Old 09-25-2018, 09:09 PM
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Originally Posted by Aztar35 View Post
What I'd like to know is what is the real difference in native contrast between the NX5, NX7, and NX9 when all are in low lamp, static iris wide open? Is it the clamping down/depth of the static iris in the NX7 and NX9 that give it the better contrast figures than the NX5?

Let's take a step back. If someone is using these for HDR, then presumably the iris will be wide open for max light output. Then is the difference in native contrast between the three machines going to be negligible?
"presumably", but not assuredly.

For the first few hundred hours on my RS640 I ran at iris -4, then at -2. All while maintaining at or just above 30fL which satisfied me for HDR.

Not all of us want to generate heat waves from the potency of our light output. Some want to keep the best achievable black level. Even for HDR.

== edit
All in low lamp mode to hit that 30fL.

In another several hundred hours on the bulb I'll need to switch to high lamp mode for HDR.
Few hundred hours to a thousand hours after that, will be time for new bulb and start all over.

All predicated on the output from the bulb following a 'normal'/'standard' lifespan of light output versus age curve.

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post #5020 of 13667 Old 09-25-2018, 09:22 PM
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Originally Posted by CrazyEddie View Post
Nah. It's dinky. Ask Craig.


==
Yeah, it is about as big in the cross section as the 4500 but not as long.

That's been discussed in this thread, ummm, a fair bit back.
What, you didn't start from the beginning to keep/catch up with the rest of us!?
Ha ! Ya, size matters. I had to rebuild my projector closet to get my RS4500 to fit, so don't complain !
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post #5021 of 13667 Old 09-26-2018, 12:15 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by KarlKlammer View Post
A preview test for a NX9 preproduction unit in german language with some additional information

https://www.lowbeats.de/exklusivtest...hendprojektor/


1435 Lumen calibrated in low lamp mode
1900 lumen calibrated in high lamp mode
The DCI filter costs 1/3 of the light output.
1900 lumens calibrated if typical across units is excellent news. That is a nice step up as compared with all of the pre-existing eShift range and also beats all of the SONYs up to and including the SONY 885/760ES. It will be interesting to see how the SONY 995ES compares given it has precisely the same advertised peak luminance of 2200 lumens.

1/3 light loss on the other hand with thr BT.2020 colour filter, is disappointing. Whilst an improvement versus the JVC RS4500/Z1's circa 45% light loss this is significantly worse than the pre-existing eShifts and too high to be worth actually using. If the light loss is indeed that high I would personally be opting to not use the filter and run the projectors at max light output with circa 90% of DCI-P3 or whatever it actually measures. 1/3 light loss for a circa +10% of DCI-P3 = A BAD DEAL... especially given it's reportedly over 90% without the filter.

Seriously I wish manufacturers would realize that this is the tail wagging the dog... IMO what they should ALL do is to limit such light loss to maximum 10% and simply produce as close to 100% of DCI-P3 as can be achieved with that. I'd take 97% of DCI-P3 with 10% light loss over 100% of DCI-P3 with 1/3 light loss every time thanks! Where most people wont even use the latter making the filters inclusion pointless, just like with respect to the JVC RS4500/Z1. But the good news and saving grace here is the reported at least 90% without the filter. Let's just hope the measurements confirm that! Either way, I just can't see anyone using the filter; which would also explain why even JVC themselves were not doing so in the demos at IFA and CEDIA!

Furthermore, if the measurements confirm 1/3 light loss is typical then of course this means the JVC RS2000/NX7 loses a USP versus the RS1000/NX5, meaning the primary differences are double the peak ON/OFF contrast, where the comparative measurements for actual typical light output levels are yet even more key now; and the slightly higher luminance.

Where the pertinent question that needs answering, which I will answer ASAP, is with respect to JVC RS2000/NX7 versus JVC RS1000/NX5 with the former operating without the BT.2020 colour filter, just how much of a perceivable difference in video performance is there?


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post #5022 of 13667 Old 09-26-2018, 01:39 AM
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Originally Posted by ARROW-AV View Post
1/3 light loss on the other hand with thr BT.2020 colour filter, is disappointing. Whilst an improvement versus the JVC RS4500/Z1's circa 45% light loss this is significantly worse than the pre-existing eShifts and too high to be worth actually using. If the light loss is indeed that high I would personally be opting to not use the filter and run the projectors at max light output with circa 90% of DCI-P3 or whatever it actually measures. 1/3 light loss for a circa +10% of DCI-P3 = A BAD DEAL... especially given it's reportedly over 90% without the filter and a lot of consumer HDR movie content does not have 100% chroma saturation points.

If I remember correctly for previous models the DCI filter was only placed into the green light path. And it seems that now it is placed into the entire light path. That would explain the increased brightness loss. But it doesn't explain why JVC feels the need to do it this way now. Disappointing indeed.
At least based on the measurements of the review one can calculate if a certain lamp/filter mode still works in his environment (~15% loss due to D65 calibration, ~25% loss due to low lamp mode, ~33% loss due to filter). Combine everything and you have only about 42.5% left of the specified light output.
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post #5023 of 13667 Old 09-26-2018, 01:58 AM
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Originally Posted by KarlKlammer View Post
If I remember correctly for previous models the DCI filter was only placed into the green light path. And it seems that now it is placed into the entire light path. That would explain the increased brightness loss. But it doesn't explain why JVC feels the need to do it this way now. Disappointing indeed.
At least based on the measurements of the review one can calculate if a certain lamp/filter mode still works in his environment (~15% loss due to D65 calibration, ~25% loss due to low lamp mode, ~33% loss due to filter). Combine everything and you have only about 42.5% left of the specified light output.
Yes, considering by the report 1900 lumens calibrated d65 at high lamp mode after filter applied it's 1273 lumens in high lamp mode and 961 lumens in low lamp mode, not a lot with the filter being applied, but pretty sure without the filter 90÷ dci-p3 coverage is more than enough to enjoy it's picture depth.

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post #5024 of 13667 Old 09-26-2018, 04:16 AM
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Has anyone worked out if there is any colourspace option to get to the "raw" colourspace of the projector with the filter inplace on the N7/NX9? On the previous generation you can only access the unadulterated colourspace of the projector with the filter out of circuit - once the filter goes in circuit the only colourspace options all have varying levels of issues with RGB vs W separation due to the CMS behaviour (100% W should equal 100% R + 100% G + 100% B, but it doesn't).

The option does exist presently without the filter in place (colourspace set to OFF in a user mode). Without this calibration of the wider colourspace with 3DLUT via something like a Lumagen is always going to be sub-optimal.

All we want is colourspace OFF with filter ON, shouldn't be hard...
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post #5025 of 13667 Old 09-26-2018, 04:28 AM
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Originally Posted by bobof View Post
Has anyone worked out if there is any colourspace option to get to the "raw" colourspace of the projector with the filter inplace on the N7/NX9? On the previous generation you can only access the unadulterated colourspace of the projector with the filter out of circuit - once the filter goes in circuit the only colourspace options all have varying levels of issues with RGB vs W separation due to the CMS behaviour (100% W should equal 100% R + 100% G + 100% B, but it doesn't).

The option does exist presently without the filter in place (colourspace set to OFF in a user mode). Without this calibration of the wider colourspace with 3DLUT via something like a Lumagen is always going to be sub-optimal.

All we want is colourspace OFF with filter ON, shouldn't be hard...
100% white shd not be 100% R,G,B for rec709 and bt2020, right?

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post #5026 of 13667 Old 09-26-2018, 04:59 AM
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Originally Posted by ARROW-AV View Post

1/3 light loss on the other hand with thr BT.2020 colour filter, is disappointing. Whilst an improvement versus the JVC RS4500/Z1's circa 45% light loss this is significantly worse than the pre-existing eShifts and too high to be worth actually using. If the light loss is indeed that high I would personally be opting to not use the filter and run the projectors at max light output with circa 90% of DCI-P3 or whatever it actually measures. 1/3 light loss for a circa +10% of DCI-P3 = A BAD DEAL... especially given it's reportedly over 90% without the filter and a lot of consumer HDR movie content does not have 100% chroma saturation points.

Thanks for your input, Arrow. The light loss is disappointing indeed. I might have to change my pre-order decision.

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Originally Posted by ARROW-AV View Post
Furthermore, if the measurements confirm 1/3 light loss is typical then of course this means the JVC RS2000/NX7 loses a USP versus the RS1000/NX5, meaning the primary differences are double the peak ON/OFF contrast, where the comparative measurements for actual typical light output levels are yet even more key now; and the slightly higher luminance.

Where the pertinent question that needs answering, which I will answer ASAP, is with respect to JVC RS2000/NX7 versus JVC RS1000/NX5 with the former operating without the BT.2020 colour filter, just how much of a perceivable difference in video performance is there?

Right. And not only that...I'm thinking that if you have to clamp down on the static iris on the NX7 to get double the native on/off contrast of the NX5, having the filter in place on the NX7, where does that leave you in light output?

I'm now wondering if the NX5 is the best deal for the money.
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post #5027 of 13667 Old 09-26-2018, 05:03 AM
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Originally Posted by KarlKlammer View Post
If I remember correctly for previous models the DCI filter was only placed into the green light path. And it seems that now it is placed into the entire light path. That would explain the increased brightness loss. But it doesn't explain why JVC feels the need to do it this way now. Disappointing indeed.
At least based on the measurements of the review one can calculate if a certain lamp/filter mode still works in his environment (~15% loss due to D65 calibration, ~25% loss due to low lamp mode, ~33% loss due to filter). Combine everything and you have only about 42.5% left of the specified light output.
I think that JVC is trying to look ahead. More and more titles are being released with more than DCI-P3 in the content. This is visible in the metadata. So they are trying to gradually get closer to the standard (BT2020), without losing too much brightness. They are offering the option to not use the filter, so I don't get what the problem is here. If you only want 90% of P3, just disable the filter and get your brightness back.

This being said, as long as the calibration is done properly and the saturation is tracking BT-2020 (or DCI-P3, depending on the way you play UHD content and calibrate), what's at the edge of the gamut is a minimal part of the content, so a good calibration is far better than covering 100% vs 90% of P3.

However, if content starts/continues to grow towards BT2020, then you will need all the gamut cover you can get, and for this I welcome JVC's decision to provide a filter that, I suspect, will cover more than DCI-P3 thanks to the higher loss in brightness. People who go wild in screen size will always have to make more compromises with HDR and 3D than those that have a 110" screen or less. I'd rather be able to install a larger screen, but this has always made me feel better about my puny 88" diag screen: I get great 3D and HDR presentations

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Originally Posted by bobof View Post
Has anyone worked out if there is any colourspace option to get to the "raw" colourspace of the projector with the filter inplace on the N7/NX9? On the previous generation you can only access the unadulterated colourspace of the projector with the filter out of circuit - once the filter goes in circuit the only colourspace options all have varying levels of issues with RGB vs W separation due to the CMS behaviour (100% W should equal 100% R + 100% G + 100% B, but it doesn't).

The option does exist presently without the filter in place (colourspace set to OFF in a user mode). Without this calibration of the wider colourspace with 3DLUT via something like a Lumagen is always going to be sub-optimal.

All we want is colourspace OFF with filter ON, shouldn't be hard...
I have requested this a while ago (it was in my list of questions to ask JVC at IFA/Cedia) and Mike replied "not with these models, possibly in the future".

I still hope that they will add the option in the final f/w. It's really not difficult to do, just offer a profile off with the filter.

Although given the expected light loss with the new models (if confirmed), I guess most people will take the profile off no filter option gladly

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post #5028 of 13667 Old 09-26-2018, 05:12 AM
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more and more titles are being released with more than DCI-P3 in the content.
Actual movie content? How is that possible when movie theaters (DCI) max out at DCI-P3?
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post #5029 of 13667 Old 09-26-2018, 05:18 AM
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Actual movie content? How is that possible when movie theaters (DCI) max out at DCI-P3?
There are some titles released in BT2020.
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post #5030 of 13667 Old 09-26-2018, 05:22 AM
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100% white shd not be 100% R,G,B for rec709 and bt2020, right?
I'm perhaps not explaining myself well And maybe I'm also not understanding right myself...!

For optimum 3D LUT creation I believe you'd have access via the HDMI input to the raw panel, perhaps with the desired gamma applied. So outputting 100% white would be the same as outputting 100% red, green, and blue, and 100% red, green and blue would each be "pure" - without contamination from other primaries.

All the modes that JVC have with the filter in place are moving the primaries you have access to away from the native unmixed RGB (narrowing the colourspace) by adding some amount of another colour, and these individually modified primaries also don't then add up to the corresponding white level. Some of the colourspaces have some very strange shapes which become visible when you try to map into them using something like Lightspace that allows you to see the cubes. The best of the colourspaces with the filter in place, Reference, still isn't as wide as it should be.

These example of the RGB separation graph from LS for various modes with the filter in place. If there were a well behaved mode you'd expect the RGB to be overlaid on the W, whereas they all have some kludge or other applied.

There is a section on the RGB separation graph in the LS manual here:
https://www.lightillusion.com/profil...tion_interface. Basically these charts show that there isn't any mode available where internal colour management is turned off with the filter in place, which is sub-optimal for 3DLUT correction.

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post #5031 of 13667 Old 09-26-2018, 05:29 AM
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Actual movie content? How is that possible when movie theaters (DCI) max out at DCI-P3?
I didn't mention movies, as you are correct that DCI-P3 is still the standard for most DCI cinemas, but it's not the case for Dolby Vision cinemas. For example, Pixar's Inside Out was released in Dolby Cinema using a BT2020 grading:

"The projector, from Christie, generates about double the peak brightness of a standard theater at 4K resolution and essentially full rec.2020 color gamut coverage using dual RGB laser projection heads. These are hooked up to the projector via fiber optics."

This should become more and more frequent over the next couple of years, and hopefully we'll get this BT2020 grading on UHD Bluray as well. I think that when grading to BT2020 they have to use the Christie projector, as I don't believe any grading monitor can reach more than P3 at this stage, which is probably why the number of releases is limited.

Nothing is preventing them to use a wider gamut than DCI-P3 for remaster of back catalog titles that are not going to get a theatrical re-release at DCI theatres. That way they will be ready for UHD Bluray and UHD TV broadcast as displays/projectors gradually get closer to the standard.

Also note that the standard for UHD TV isn't P3, it's BT-2020, so you are starting to get more and more content above DCI-P3 released on UHD Bluray, usually nature documentary and stuff like that. It's for now most of the content that we see on UHD Bluray that uses more than P3, but I'm really hoping that titles released on Dolby Cinema in BT2020 will get the wider gamut when released on UHD Bluray.
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post #5032 of 13667 Old 09-26-2018, 05:39 AM
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JFMI, can the OLED mastering monitors do more than DCI-P3?
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post #5033 of 13667 Old 09-26-2018, 05:55 AM
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Originally Posted by Brandon B View Post
Why would your screen need to retain polarization for active shutter glasses? There is no polarizer on the projector output, and hence none of significance on the screen itself. The glasses are showing eye sequential alternating frames, which the glasses block with an active LC lens, no?

Or is this a passive glasses system with a polarization module in front of the lens?
JVC is the only manufacturer that maintains polarization correctly all they way through the projector and glasses. That means if your screen retains polarization and you are using JVC's glasses, you gain extra brightness. If you use glasses that do not match, then brightness will change, as you move your head more sideways. Here is a thread talking about some of the screens out there that retain polarization.
https://www.avsforum.com/forum/191-3...rojection.html
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post #5034 of 13667 Old 09-26-2018, 05:58 AM
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JFMI, can the OLED mastering monitors do more than DCI-P3?
As I said in the post above, AFAIK only the Christie projector allows to grade for BT2020, so my understanding is that it's what is used to grade such titles, which explains why there are not that many (for now).

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post #5035 of 13667 Old 09-26-2018, 06:24 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Brandon B View Post
Why would your screen need to retain polarization for active shutter glasses? There is no polarizer on the projector output, and hence none of significance on the screen itself. The glasses are showing eye sequential alternating frames, which the glasses block with an active LC lens, no?

Or is this a passive glasses system with a polarization module in front of the lens?
LCD / LCOS systems always have some polarisation or other (same with TVs).

JVC have the opposite polarisation to everyone else in the market, so have special glasses made appropriately polarised by Xpand. If your screen doesn't maintain polarisation you'll see almost no difference between the JVC and non-JVC glasses. If your screen maintains polarisation (some ALR screens, some high gain screens) and you have the incorrect glasses you'll see almost complete darkness.
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post #5036 of 13667 Old 09-26-2018, 06:28 AM
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I remember when UHD Blu-Ray was just starting to appear, people discussed needing BT.2020, calibrating to BT.2020. At the time I said I would recommend calibrating to DCI-P3, considering that by far most movie content would be DCI-P3. I think I was right back then, and I think I still am right today. Honestly, if only Christie projectors support BT.2020 mastering, and if only Dolby Theaters support showing such movies, and considering that many (most?) consumer displays still struggle achieving 100% DCI-P3, and that UHD Blu-Ray is a consumer format, I highly doubt true BT.2020 content is going to be a big thing any time soon. So I would still recommend igoring BT.2020 and calibrating to DCI-P3.

Furthermore, how would movie studio market true BT.2020 UHD Blu-Rays to the average consumer? UHD Blu-Ray is already advertised with wider colors. Will studios then advertise with even "wider than wide" colors? Or will the studio advertise with "now finally full BT.2020"? Which average end user is going to understand that? They will just say "I thought UHD Blu-Ray was Bt.2020 from the get go!?". And what sense does it all make, if the end user's display can't barely do DCI-P3, anyway? IMHO, that's all pretty much nonsense at this point. And IMHO it would be a very stupid decision by JVC to sacrifise lots of light for the mostly useless purpose of exceeding DCI-P3.

Just my 2 cents, of course. Feel free to disagree.
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post #5037 of 13667 Old 09-26-2018, 06:39 AM
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Originally Posted by madshi View Post
So I would still recommend ignoring BT.2020 and calibrating to DCI-P3.
I'm probably missing a step in your calibration process here, or there is some conversion in MadVR that I'm not familiar with, but even though titles are mastered in P3, they are delivered on disc in a BT.2020 container and in doing so have their colour coordinates mapped to BT.2020 primaries.

Each colour space has different primary coordinates, so they do not track the same through various levels of saturation and luminance. Why would you therefore calibrate to P3 rather than BT.2020, would that not result in the colours being incorrectly displayed?
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post #5038 of 13667 Old 09-26-2018, 06:40 AM
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Originally Posted by madshi View Post
I remember when UHD Blu-Ray was just starting to appear, people discussed needing BT.2020, calibrating to BT.2020. At the time I said I would recommend calibrating to DCI-P3, considering that by far most movie content would be DCI-P3. I think I was right back then, and I think I still am right today. Honestly, if only Christie projectors support BT.2020 mastering, and if only Dolby Theaters support showing such movies, and considering that many (most?) consumer displays still struggle achieving 100% DCI-P3, and that UHD Blu-Ray is a consumer format, I highly doubt true BT.2020 content is going to be a big thing any time soon. So I would still recommend igoring BT.2020 and calibrating to DCI-P3.

Furthermore, how would movie studio market true BT.2020 UHD Blu-Rays to the average consumer? UHD Blu-Ray is already advertised with wider colors. Will studios then advertise with even "wider than wide" colors? Or will the studio advertise with "now finally full BT.2020"? Which average end user is going to understand that? They will just say "I thought UHD Blu-Ray was Bt.2020 from the get go!?". And what sense does it all make, if the end user's display can't barely do DCI-P3, anyway? IMHO, that's all pretty much nonsense at this point. And IMHO it would be a very stupid decision by JVC to sacrifise lots of light for the mostly useless purpose of exceeding DCI-P3.

Just my 2 cents, of course. Feel free to disagree.
Why would I disagree with you? You were wrong at the time because UHD Bluray wasn't playable on HTPCs and the players were outputting BT2020 (and still are), so calibrating to DCI-P3 would have been 100% wrong then as there was no way to discard the BT2020 container. But now that we can play UHD Bluray content with MadVR on HTPCs, I am myself calibrating for P3 because 100% of the content I care about is P3 content, and my display doesn't reach more than P3 anyway. MadVR does a fantastic job at discarding the BT2020 container and play the native P3 content instead. So I am recommending to those using a P3 capable display and a PC as a source with MadVR to calibrate to P3. You get far better results, especially when using a 3D LUT with MadVR, which is one of the many reasons why I love your software.

But the minute we get film titles, such as Inside Out, in BT2020 on UHD Bluray, I will seriously consider calibrating to BT2020, if and only 1) the native gamut on the display is significantly wider than P3. If it's only a few percents, I'll stick to P3 and 2) calibration software get better at creating 3D LUTs for a target gamut wider than the display capability. At the moment, most of them suck big time at this, causing a lot of posterization, which is also one of the reasons why I calibrate to DCI-P3 with MadVR and recommend using P3 with MadVR discarding the BT2020 container. Anyone with a standalone player should still only calibrate to BT2020, which is the only target that counts for consumers (along with Rec-709) on UHD Bluray.

I didn't make any recommendation here, I only said that I welcomed JVC's attempt to cover more than DCI-P3, because I believe it makes the new models more future-proof. I have other reasons for that that I will be happy to discuss with you by email if you want, as it's off topic here.
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post #5039 of 13667 Old 09-26-2018, 07:03 AM
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Quote:
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I'm probably missing a step in your calibration process here, or there is some conversion in MadVR that I'm not familiar with, but even though titles are mastered in P3, they are delivered on disc in a BT.2020 container and in doing so have their colour coordinates mapped to BT.2020 primaries.

Each colour space has different primary coordinates, so they do not track the same through various levels of saturation and luminance. Why would you therefore calibrate to P3 rather than BT.2020, would that not result in the colours being incorrectly displayed?
To be honest, I'm not familiar with how the Lumagen handles 3DLUTs. With madVR, each 3DLUT specifies which source gamut it was made for, and madVR then automatically converts the source to that. So if you play an UHD Blu-Ray and use a DCI-P3 3DLUT, madVR will automatically extract the DCI-P3 subsection of the BT.2020 container and send that into the 3DLUT. So you'll get exactly the same colors as you would get when sending the full BT.2020 container into a BT.2020 3DLUT. I don't know if the Lumagen does this, too.

The advantages of using a DCI-P3 3DLUT are:

1) The calibration profiling doesn't even have to measure BT.2020 colors that are outside of DCI-P3.
2) The 3DLUT can use its full capacity for DCI-P3 instead of wasting precious bits on unused BT.2020 colors, so the 3DLUT capacity is better used.
3) Since displays can't do BT.2020, anyway, trying to calibrate to BT.2020 brings the calibration software into serious trouble, because colors that are outside of what the display can achieve will clip, distort or do other funny things. The calibration software will have to try to "repair" all that non-linear and weird behaviour, which can potentially lead to weird color effects near the DCI-P3 gamut boundary. This can be avoided by limiting the calibration to DCI-P3.

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Originally Posted by Manni01 View Post
Why would I disagree with you? You were wrong at the time because UHD Bluray wasn't playable on HTPC and the players were outputting BT2020 (and still are), so calibrating to DCI-P3 would have been 100% wrong then as there was no way to discard the BT2020 container.
Well, the calibration software could have taken the BT.2020 container into account, but still limit itself to profiling and calibrating the DCI-P3 subset, and then just extrapolate the 3DLUT for BT.2020. I don't know why they didn't do that, they should have IMHO (at least optionally), and because of that I still think I was right. Anyway, doesn't really matter too much now.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Manni01 View Post
But the minute we get film titles, such as Inside Out, in BT2020 on UHD Bluray, I will seriously consider calibrating to BT2020, if and only 1) the native gamut on the display is significantly wider than P3. If it's only a few percents, I'll stick to P3 and 2) calibration software get better at creating 3D LUTs for a target gamut wider than the display capability. At the moment, most of them suck big time at this, causing a lot of posterization, which is also one of the reasons why I calibrate to DCI-P3 and recommend using P3 with MadVR discarding the BT2020 container.
Fully agreed.

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I didn't make any recommendation here, I only said that I welcomed JVCs attempt to cover more than DCI-P3. I have other reasons for that that I will be happy to discuss with you by email if you want, as it's off topic here.
Fair enough. But I think the big majority of users here on AVSForum would prefer losing only 15% light to perfectly achieve 100% DCI-P3, instead of losing something like 33% to slightly exceed DCI-P3. So if JVC intentionally decided to loose something like 33%, IMHO most users here will be quite unhappy with that decision.
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post #5040 of 13667 Old 09-26-2018, 07:09 AM
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Fair enough. But I think the big majority of users here on AVSForum would prefer losing only 15% light to perfectly achieve 100% DCI-P3, instead of losing something like 33% to slightly exceed DCI-P3. So if JVC intentionally decided to loose something like 33%, IMHO most users here will be quite unhappy with that decision.
As I said, I have other reasons to applaud this decision (provided the additional loss of brightness yields a significantly wider than P3 gamut, of course if we lose 30% instead of 10% and get the same 100% of P3, then that's a bit of a weird step), especially as we can disable the filter if we want to privilege brightness. However, this is off topic here. They might be of interest to you though so please email me if you want to discuss this further so that we don't clutter this thread.

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