NEW JVC RS3000/NX9 RS2000/N7 RS1000/N5 Native 4K Projectors Anticipation Thread - Page 2 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #31 of 13653 Old 08-17-2018, 08:50 AM
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Originally Posted by BattleAxeVR View Post
Wouldn't prices for used projectors go down, given how many will likely be upgrading or more interested in native 4K to begin with?

I'm happy for JVC and look forward to reading this, but unless the lamps are cheaper, this is a non-starter for me. 600 bucks a pop for lamps is not happening, not when blue laser diodes cost pennies and you can buy LED and laser projectors for under 2K now.

I hope JVC beats the pants off Sony in terms of native contrast, and so hopefully force Sony to release an affordable laser model of their 4K native units next year. Or Epson.

I would've preferred high contrast JVC e-shift + laser at an affordable price, so long as it supported P3 gamut, and 120hz at 1080p in HDR10.
Maybe. Whether you buy new or used depends on if you want a 3 year warranty, or not. And how good a deal you can get on a used one. You need to weight the risks vs the cost savings.
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post #32 of 13653 Old 08-17-2018, 08:58 AM
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Originally Posted by x43x View Post
Retailers are anticipating an uptick in pricing as well, so I might have to decide if the native 4K is worth the premium, or if contrast wins and I get a 540. I really hope the real-world contrast is decent and I would be okay with the levels that Sony has if they still accept the 18gb video signal.
18Gb/s is so 2017... You want 48Gb/s unless you swap PJs every year. HDMI 2.1 will be mainstream next year. First use for me: RGB 4:4:4 in 4K 10/12bits at 60fps for my HTPC, to make the most of MadVR's goodness with all content. But there will be more and more content over the next couple of year that will benefit from HDMI 2.1.

I'm not investing close to 10K to get an already obsolete tech. Whatever I buy next has to be good for 3-5 years, same as my RS500 was.

My Denon X8500H is upgradable to HDMI 2.1 (that's why I bought it a few months ago and didn't wait until next year), the next nVidia GPUs landing in September will support HDMI 2.1 [edit 08-19-18: sadly it looks like the 2080ti won't support HDMi 2.1, so it looks like I have another 12-18 months before I need to upgrade], so there's no way I'm investing in a display that doesn't support it (or offers an upgrade path).

Given how quickly HDMI standards change, they should make the HDMI boards upgradable as soon as they are asking for more than 3K.

Lumagen does it with the Radiance Pro, so it's not impossible. If there is a will, there is a way

By the way, before you say that HDMI 2.2 is around the corner, what makes a difference here is the bandwidth, because that's hardware related. Most of the other features are f/w upgradable.

So I waited until I could get full 18Gb/s bandwidth to upgrade my A/V chain 2/3 years ago (GPU/Source, AVR and display), and I'll do the same this time around.

Given that JVC never adds features in their f/w upgrade and don't always correct the bugs, that's the least you can do to, if not defeat, at least fight planned obsolescence.

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post #33 of 13653 Old 08-17-2018, 09:19 AM
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Originally Posted by Manni01 View Post
18Gb/s is so 2017... You want 48Gb/s unless you swap PJs every year. HDMI 2.1 will be mainstream next year. First use for me: RGB 4:4:4 in 4K 10/12bits at 60fps for my HTPC, to make the most of MadVR's goodness with all content. But there will be more and more content over the next couple of year that will benefit from HDMI 2.1.

I'm not investing close to 10K to get an already obsolete tech. Whatever I buy next has to be good for 3-5 years, same as my RS500 was.

My Denon X8500H is upgradable to HDMI 2.1 (that's why I bought it a few months ago and didn't wait until next year), the next nVidia GPUs landing in September will support HDMI 2.1, so there's no way I'm investing in a display that doesn't support it (or offers an upgrade path).

Given how quickly HDMI standards change, they should make the HDMI boards upgradable as soon as they are asking for more than 3K.

Lumagen does it with the Radiance Pro, so it's not impossible. If there is a will, there is a way

By the way, before you say that HDMI 2.2 is around the corner, what makes a difference here is the bandwidth, because that's hardware related. Most of the other features are f/w upgradable.

So I waited until I could get full 18Gb/s bandwidth to upgrade my A/V chain 2/3 years ago (GPU/Source, AVR and display), and I'll do the same this time around.

Given that JVC never adds features in their f/w upgrade and don't always correct the bugs, that's the least you can do to, if not defeat, at least fight planned obsolescence.
Yep, it's time. Also time for 4K 120fps support for us gamers out there!
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post #34 of 13653 Old 08-17-2018, 09:26 AM
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published native contrast in new models

JVC has historically been one of the only manufacturers to post native contrast #'s in their press releases - well potential native with iris clamped but good info nonetheless for those of us that run the iris dialed down.

I'm hoping we see that early info with the press release on the 31st and there is full transparency on the native capabilities on the new models.



@ARROW-AV - bring your minolta T10 and get us that early info pls...

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post #35 of 13653 Old 08-17-2018, 09:32 AM
 
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By the way, before you say that HDMI 2.2 is around the corner, what makes a difference here is the bandwidth, because that's hardware related. Most of the other features are f/w upgradable.
I doubt HDMI 2.2 will come out before displays have gone beyond the 10k 120hz max HDMI 2.1 offers. It is truly the upgrade worth waiting for that will last a long time, I think.

I want true 4K in a high contrast projector as well, no doubt, but without at least 20 gbps (instead of 18 gbps over HDMI 2.0a), to allow, as you say, 4K60 in HDR10 in 4:4:4, it's not truly "4K", is it. SDR is passé, and I don't want to have to constantly switch between HDR10 (or HDR10+ ideally) and SDR 8-bit to avoid dropping to 4:2:2 and destroying the colours of text.

For most games, and certainly movies, 4:2:2 is fine. Higher refresh rates are where it's at.

Actually I'd prefer 4:2:0 than 4:2:2 for some types of games, like racing games or FPSes, where in HDR10 you could do 90hz at 4K. Actually, even adding a DisplayPort 1.4 would be a short-term solution, since that can only reach 98hz in 4:4:4 with HDR10. True story, the latest Asus G-sync monitor must drop to 4:2:2 at 120hz and 144hz while HDR10 is activated. That is a real disappointment. So HDMI 2.1 needs to arrive ASAP.

I think 2019 will be the year for me to upgrade to 4K, finally. Once I can do HDR10 + HFR (120hz or 144hz) at the same time, at 4K, and in 4:4:4.

I'd rather an e-shift laser than native 4K that I can't really drive at 60hz properly anyway.

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post #36 of 13653 Old 08-17-2018, 09:40 AM
 
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Yep, it's time. Also time for 4K 120fps support for us gamers out there!
They might as well support 4K 144hz if we're waiting for 48 gbps, if the DILA chips can support that speed, that is. They can probably do 120hz though, I'm guessing.

40 gbps is one of the options for HDMI 2.1, which corresponds to 4K 120hz in HDR10 in 4:4:4.

20 gbps vs 18 gbps alone would be enough of an upgrade to get us to 4K60 in HDR10 in RGB / 4:4:4 too, but why not go whole hog? The problem is, I'm not sure these projector manufacturers care about gamers or PC users all that much, if they go by what people on AVS forum say, we'll be stuck with these 24 fps LFR blinkers for another century.
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post #37 of 13653 Old 08-17-2018, 09:43 AM
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Lumagen does it with the Radiance Pro, so it's not impossible. If there is a will, there is a way
Having spent a little time looking around the inside of the Lumagen Pro 4242, I doubt there is any upgrade path for that model past 18G that doesn't involve a new mainboard. That's not to say other aspects of HDMI2.1 couldn't be added, but I don't think we'll see the bandwidth happen.

The comms channel for each IO card to / from the mainboard is a pair of 9G links; for 18G signals they get split into the two links and re-constituted in the FPGA, so a single 18G card already maxes out the available bandwidth. There are 2x 18G capable input slots and only 1x 18G capable output slots.
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post #38 of 13653 Old 08-17-2018, 09:44 AM
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They can probably do 120hz though, I'm guessing.
The sim units do do 120Hz, so I think it is a safe bet.
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post #39 of 13653 Old 08-17-2018, 09:49 AM
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I doubt HDMI 2.2 will come out before displays have gone beyond the 10k 120hz max HDMI 2.1 offers. It is truly the upgrade worth waiting for that will last a long time, I think.

I want true 4K in a high contrast projector as well, no doubt, but without at least 20 gbps (instead of 18 gbps over HDMI 2.0a), to allow, as you say, 4K60 in HDR10 in 4:4:4, it's not truly "4K", is it. SDR is passé, and I don't want to have to constantly switch between HDR10 (or HDR10+ ideally) and SDR 8-bit to avoid dropping to 4:2:2 and destroying the colours of text.

For most games, and certainly movies, 4:2:2 is fine. Higher refresh rates are where it's at.

Actually I'd prefer 4:2:0 than 4:2:2 for some types of games, like racing games or FPSes, where in HDR10 you could do 90hz at 4K. Actually, even adding a DisplayPort 1.4 would be a short-term solution, since that can only reach 98hz in 4:4:4 with HDR10. True story, the latest Asus G-sync monitor must drop to 4:2:2 at 120hz and 144hz while HDR10 is activated. That is a real disappointment. So HDMI 2.1 needs to arrive ASAP.

I think 2019 will be the year for me to upgrade to 4K, finally. Once I can do HDR10 + HFR (120hz or 144hz) at the same time, at 4K, and in 4:4:4.

I'd rather an e-shift laser than native 4K that I can't really drive at 60hz properly anyway.
What I meant by HDMI 2.2 was "the next version of HDMI", like we had HDMI 2.0, 2.0a, 2.0b. The important one was 2.0a because that's the one that brought 18Gb/s and HDR support.

It looks like HDMI 2.1 is what HDMI 2.0 should have been from the beginning: enough bandwidth to give buy us a few years from a hardware point of view.

The main issue is going to be the cables, given how hard it is to get a good 18Gb/s cable as soon as you go above a few meters.

However, as you say, we really need only around 20Gb/s to start with (at least that's what I need to get RGB 4:4:4 at 4K560 10/12bits) and I suspect many existing good quality HDMI premium cables should support that, at least over a short distance.
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post #40 of 13653 Old 08-17-2018, 10:04 AM
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Having spent a little time looking around the inside of the Lumagen Pro 4242, I doubt there is any upgrade path for that model past 18G that doesn't involve a new mainboard. That's not to say other aspects of HDMI2.1 couldn't be added, but I don't think we'll see the bandwidth happen.

The comms channel for each IO card to / from the mainboard is a pair of 9G links; for 18G signals they get split into the two links and re-constituted in the FPGA, so a single 18G card already maxes out the available bandwidth. There are 2x 18G capable input slots and only 1x 18G capable output slots.
As I recall Jim said that they would try to implement HDMI 2.1 not at full speed but at 36Gb/s by aggregating 4x9gb/s ports, so this will only be possible on the topmost model(s) and will of course leave the user with less in/out ports. But at least they will have the option, if it's technically possible. But not on that model, no, it's not capable enough.

Still, over the life of the product, they will have gone from 9gb/s to 18gb/s, and possibly 36gb/s on the model(s) with enough in/outs.

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post #41 of 13653 Old 08-17-2018, 10:44 AM
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Originally Posted by zombie10k View Post
JVC has historically been one of the only manufacturers to post native contrast #'s in their press releases - well potential native with iris clamped but good info nonetheless for those of us that run the iris dialed down.

I'm hoping we see that early info with the press release on the 31st and there is full transparency on the native capabilities on the new models.



@ARROW-AV - bring your minolta T10 and get us that early info pls...

Except native is not published on the RS4500.
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post #42 of 13653 Old 08-17-2018, 10:48 AM
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Now I'm wondering what JVC will bring to the table to challenge Sony in the native 4k space. It'll be good to have competition, if they supersede the Sony 285 in all respects, then Sony would be forced to bring the price down, or release a replacement sooner than expected. Hopefully, JVC will keep the price reasonable at around 5k for the lowest one and not higher, though I'm a bit skeptical.
I expect we will see an entry level native 4K model from JVC with a street price under (perhaps even well under) Sony's official $5K price point for their VW285. I would further expect the JVC to still have a single DI as have had their RS-4xx series the past few years, in which case dynamic contrast should be more like a Sony VW385 rather than the Sony entry-level VW285. Of course this is speculation at this point and no word yet on what Sony may announce at IFA or CEDIA.
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post #43 of 13653 Old 08-17-2018, 10:49 AM
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Except native is not published on the RS4500.
I know, that's kind of the problem if they start to change now. folks have seen those #'s for the 12K MSRP and under projectors for many years now. it will raise a lot of questions if it's now omitted from the press releases.
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post #44 of 13653 Old 08-17-2018, 11:02 AM
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I am hoping JVC can also improve lumen output with these new lines. It will also be interesting to see if 3D is still supported or if they drop it. My guess is that they drop it.
I too am hoping for the same if not a little more lumen output and yes 3D in my house is still a big deal. They made a pretty sizeable jump in lumens last time they did their major reboot so my guess is they will likely just leave it right where it's at. We will know soon.
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I know, that's kind of the problem if they start to change now. folks have seen those #'s for the 12K MSRP and under projectors for many years now. it will raise a lot of questions if it's now omitted from the press releases.
It would be the same as what we have now with Sony. You would have to see a reliable review or see the projector and judge if the contrast is okay for you.
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post #46 of 13653 Old 08-17-2018, 11:13 AM
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It would be the same as what we have now with Sony. You would have to see a reliable review or see the projector and judge if the contrast is okay for you.
Seems to me we get a little numbers obsessed at times and forget to watch the movie. Here's what I know, if JVC is making the projector the blacks are going to be sufficient. Yes, you may be able to pause a space scene in an ever so perfect environment and notice that the blacks on a previous model were just a teency weency bit darker if we do a side by side but for crying out loud just watch the damn movie. Another projector will always be slightly darker, brighter, sharper, better lag, quieter etc. At some point how many extra thousands can you spend to win a side by side which isn't how we watch content. That wasn't a comment directed at you Mike at all, it was just a general statement. I digress. Anyway, I'm anxiously awaiting what JVC has in store.
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post #47 of 13653 Old 08-17-2018, 11:19 AM
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Seems to me we get a little numbers obsessed at times and forget to watch the movie. Here's what I know, if JVC is making the projector the blacks are going to be sufficient. Yes, you may be able to pause a space scene in an ever so perfect environment and notice that the blacks on a previous model were just a teency weency bit darker if we do a side by side but for crying out loud just watch the damn movie. Another projector will always be slightly darker, brighter, sharper, better lag, quieter etc. At some point how many extra thousands can you spend to win a side by side which isn't how we watch content. That wasn't a comment directed at you Mike at all, it was just a general statement. I digress. Anyway, I'm anxiously awaiting what JVC has in store.
I understand. I fought the battle with the RS4500. People were condemning it right and left and yet it was throwing the best image I had ever seen in my room and that includes three different JVC 6 series projectors.
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post #48 of 13653 Old 08-17-2018, 11:20 AM
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I am hoping JVC can also improve lumen output with these new lines. It will also be interesting to see if 3D is still supported or if they drop it. My guess is that they drop it.

I don't think they would drop 3D. their entire series has had it for years since 2011 with the exception of the current DLP model which is based off a different manufacturers design with some JVC specific updates.

just keep the 3 PIN 3D VESA port in place and folks can ignore 3D if they choose, or fans can just bring over their existing RF gear to the new model.
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post #49 of 13653 Old 08-17-2018, 11:21 AM
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I think moving into native 4K is a great move for JVC. I realize that it’s not that important for enthusiast but the general population wants 4K, although some of them may already be fooled by JVCs current marketing. I would say about half the people I talk to about my theater and using a projector ask if it’s 4K. It’s been pushed down their throats by all the tv manufacturers and that’s what they know. I will definitely take a look at these because I’m tired of listening to the e-shift noise.


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post #50 of 13653 Old 08-17-2018, 11:25 AM
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If their lamps were affordable it wouldn't matter. But they are priced like ink jet printer replacement ink. It's a cheap way to boost sales. I consider it price gouging, honestly. The projector itself should be the main expense, not the lamps adding 20-30-40% extra depending on how long you keep it. I want to buy my next projector and keep it for ten years. Not quite there yet, obviously.
I do agree the OEM JVC lamps are way overpriced. I don't know if that is JVC's doing or their suppliers though. At any rate I rationalized it by buying a closeout brand new JVC projector from an authorized dealer that was roughly half off MSRP. There are deals out there if you have patience. Once these new 4K projectors are announced I would think there could be some very good closeout pricing for the current e-shift lineup and setting aside $600 for one or two bulbs won't hurt nearly as much.
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post #51 of 13653 Old 08-17-2018, 11:29 AM
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I don't think they would drop 3D. their entire series has had it for years since 2011 with the exception of the current DLP model which is based off a different manufacturers design with some JVC specific updates.

just keep the 3 PIN 3D VESA port in place and folks can ignore 3D if they choose, or fans can just bring over their existing RF gear to the new model.
There still must be overhead to support it with new projectors, no? With the TV market all but abandoning 3D and many projectors (example most of the new "4L" DLP projectors) dropping it, I am not sure the incentive unless JVC feels its a differentiator and can help justify the more expensive price of their projectors.

I am fine with them keeping it, but I can see, from a business perspective, why they would consider dropping it.
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post #52 of 13653 Old 08-17-2018, 11:38 AM
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I do agree the OEM JVC lamps are way overpriced. I don't know if that is JVC's doing or their suppliers though. At any rate I rationalized it by buying a closeout brand new JVC projector from an authorized dealer that was roughly half off MSRP. There are deals out there if you have patience. Once these new 4K projectors are announced I would think there could be some very good closeout pricing for the current e-shift lineup and setting aside $600 for one or two bulbs won't hurt nearly as much.
Sony lamps for the VW285 / 385 and 675 are about the same price.
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post #53 of 13653 Old 08-17-2018, 11:45 AM
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There still must be overhead to support it with new projectors, no? With the TV market all but abandoning 3D and many projectors (example most of the new "4L" DLP projectors) dropping it, I am not sure the incentive unless JVC feels its a differentiator and can help justify the more expensive price of their projectors.

I am fine with them keeping it, but I can see, from a business perspective, why they would consider dropping it.
3D is still quite popular in China and other countries. The hardware / software for it is already cooked and their close competitors (Epson/Sony) still have it in all their HT models. I hope to see the 3 PIN port on the press release photos in 2 weeks

movies like GOTG2, IW and RP1 look remarkable with a good 3D presentation..
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post #54 of 13653 Old 08-17-2018, 12:09 PM
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Originally Posted by Buddylee123 View Post
I think moving into native 4K is a great move for JVC. I realize that it’s not that important for enthusiast but the general population want 4K, although some of them may already be fooled by JVCs current marketing. I would say about half the people I talk to about my theater and using a projector ask if it’s 4K. It’s been pushed down their throats by all the tv manufacturers and that’s what they know. I will definitely take a look at these because I’m tired of listening to the e-shift noise.


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Honestly, using my Sony VW760ES I can never go back from native 4k. I find the image absolutely spectacular.

Video: Sony VPL-VW760ES, Elite screen Aeon 135" Cinewhite + JVC X7900, Magicscreen Reference ALR 120"
Speakers: Bowers and Wilkins 802 D3 front, JBL 580, JBL 520c, JBL 550p
Amplifiers: Lyngdorf stereo TDAI 2170, Lyngdorf SDA 2400, Denon 4300H Home Theatre
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post #55 of 13653 Old 08-17-2018, 12:18 PM
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Originally Posted by Manni01 View Post
As I recall Jim said that they would try to implement HDMI 2.1 not at full speed but at 36Gb/s by aggregating 4x9gb/s ports, so this will only be possible on the topmost model(s) and will of course leave the user with less in/out ports. But at least they will have the option, if it's technically possible. But not on that model, no, it's not capable enough.

Still, over the life of the product, they will have gone from 9gb/s to 18gb/s, and possibly 36gb/s on the model(s) with enough in/outs.
Oh yeah, I'm not complaining, just wasn't sure you were aware of limitations. Some kind of a double width input card straddling two slots could do it subject to availability of chips to do the splitting. Board space is pretty tight on the cards too, the current 18G chip barely fits but newer chips may be BGA which would help.
I don't think you'd necessarily lose any inputs as each card could have a 4 input switch in front of the receiver; but you'd be limited to a single video out.
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post #56 of 13653 Old 08-17-2018, 12:22 PM
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It came straight from JVC.
I should have been clearer. I was more interested in where the picture of the PJ came from than the text under it. I've only seen that pic here.
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post #57 of 13653 Old 08-17-2018, 12:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Buddylee123 View Post
I think moving into native 4K is a great move for JVC. I realize that it’s not that important for enthusiast but the general population want 4K, although some of them may already be fooled by JVCs current marketing. I would say about half the people I talk to about my theater and using a projector ask if it’s 4K. It’s been pushed down their throats by all the tv manufacturers and that’s what they know. I will definitely take a look at these because I’m tired of listening to the e-shift noise.


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This has been my experience as well. NONE of my friends/family or work associates are into A/V or HT at all in my every day life, but a number of these folks have asked if my projector is "4k" if the subject happens to pop up. From the general population perspective, I would definitely say this is a great move by JVC even if it's not the exact thing I was personally wanting to see most.
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post #58 of 13653 Old 08-17-2018, 12:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Toe View Post
This has been my experience as well. NONE of my friends/family or work associates are into A/V or HT at all in my every day life, but a number of these folks have asked if my projector is "4k" if the subject happens to pop up. From the general population perspective, I would definitely say this is a great move by JVC even if it's not the exact thing I was personally wanting to see most.
Same thing I have repeatedly said. Now if they surprise me by bringing out high native contrast and native 4K, then it is a great move.
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post #59 of 13653 Old 08-17-2018, 12:59 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Manni01 View Post
In order to claim infinite:1 they would have to offer a full black out plate or a fully closing DI, as we know that these will be lamp based and won't have laser dimming offering full fade to black.

Do you have any information confirming this? Otherwise it's a bit early to say they'll claim infinite:1 on/off with lamp-based units....
Good catch and excellent point! So that means we may very well actually have the claimed native ON/OFF contrast performance listed on the product information sheets

I've clearly been spending way too much time posting about laser projectors today!

Mmmmm... "BE THE FIRST" to experience full fade to black with lamp-based projectors perhaps... ? It's about time we actually saw this, don't you think, eh?
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post #60 of 13653 Old 08-17-2018, 01:05 PM
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Originally Posted by Mike Garrett View Post
Same thing I have repeatedly said. Now if they surprise me by bringing out high native contrast and native 4K, then it is a great move.
As you say it would be a surprise, plus not such a great move if it alienates rs4500 owners...

They would have to at least double the native on/off if they don’t improve the DI so that it closes further down or add a full black plate. The only reason they get away with such a poor native on the RS4500 is because of the laser dimming and true fade to black.

I’m not very hopeful on the native on/off improvement side, not to that extent (which would only bring the new models at the level of a ten year old RS20!) but either of the other two options is fairly easy to implement and would help a lot to accept the abysmal drop in native.

How many days to IFA?

JVC Autocal Software V11 Calibration for 2019 Models (Google)
Batch Utility V4.02 May 16 2019 to automate measurements files for madVR with support for BD Folders
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