NEW JVC RS3000/NX9 RS2000/N7 RS1000/N5 Native 4K Projectors Anticipation Thread - Page 220 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #6571 of 13653 Old 10-13-2018, 04:06 AM
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Originally Posted by OzHDHT View Post
Ok that’s interesting. Kind of odd really given my JVC contact is at the top of the pro division and said to me only yesterday in regards to the two not for sale units they were quote getting shortly were for testing by a few local post houses? I find it really odd that he’d misstate that if they’d actually already arrived and were in the hands of those prod houses
Did they happen to tell you which post houses?

Given I'm in the industry there is a chance I may be able to get in and have a look.

Frame Set and Match?

Probably is additional test units coming with final firmware. That would make sense.

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post #6572 of 13653 Old 10-13-2018, 04:09 AM
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How Did I Do?


Maybe I can use this post for all of us to stroke each other's ego about their purchase...

...that's a joke, but I guess I am looking for some kind of confirmation that I am getting a really great projector.


Quickly...

I have been in home theater for well over 30 years. My first projector purchase (Sony HW55ES) was 3 years ago and I was hooked!


The JVC RS2000 (NX7) is my first 4k projector purchase. I could have gone with other brands but from what I heard, this is a BIG year for JVC and these are flagship releases.

I could have gone with the RS3000 (NX9), but the price was just too cost prohibitive for me. I could have gone with the RS1000 (NX 5) but I felt good that I went one step higher and went with the "sweet spot" projector"

So, for someone that demands a quality home theater presentation, how did I do with the RS2000 and in the big scheme of professional home projectors, where do I and others who bought this projector sit?
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post #6573 of 13653 Old 10-13-2018, 05:03 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OzHDHT View Post
I did hear directly from JVC yesterday, which is why I posted about it this morning. To reiterate what I was told, JVC are only getting two demo units in next few weeks and do not now anticipate any stock to arrive till late November or even into Early Dec.



Ok good to know Craig, I still made note of what the current US undertandings are on your first shipments to my JVC Aus contact today as well. Let’s hope You guys don’t to cop any delays to these exciting new units either
To clarify - you're saying that they're getting into the hands of dealers late November or early December? That's for the US or Aus?
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post #6574 of 13653 Old 10-13-2018, 05:44 AM
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Originally Posted by Ronald Epstein View Post
How Did I Do?


Maybe I can use this post for all of us to stroke each other's ego about their purchase...

...that's a joke, but I guess I am looking for some kind of confirmation that I am getting a really great projector.


Quickly...

I have been in home theater for well over 30 years. My first projector purchase (Sony HW55ES) was 3 years ago and I was hooked!


The JVC RS2000 (NX7) is my first 4k projector purchase. I could have gone with other brands but from what I heard, this is a BIG year for JVC and these are flagship releases.

I could have gone with the RS3000 (NX9), but the price was just too cost prohibitive for me. I could have gone with the RS1000 (NX 5) but I felt good that I went one step higher and went with the "sweet spot" projector"

So, for someone that demands a quality home theater presentation, how did I do with the RS2000 and in the big scheme of professional home projectors, where do I and others who bought this projector sit?
I went RS3000. But I'm coming from an RS640. From where you're coming from the RS2000 a going to be a really huge upgrade. So far most people that have seen the N5/RS1000 think it's better than even sony 570/695ES so sounds like you did great.
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post #6575 of 13653 Old 10-13-2018, 05:55 AM
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Originally Posted by markmon1 View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ronald Epstein View Post
How Did I Do?


Maybe I can use this post for all of us to stroke each other's ego about their purchase...

...that's a joke, but I guess I am looking for some kind of confirmation that I am getting a really great projector.


Quickly...

I have been in home theater for well over 30 years. My first projector purchase (Sony HW55ES) was 3 years ago and I was hooked!


The JVC RS2000 (NX7) is my first 4k projector purchase. I could have gone with other brands but from what I heard, this is a BIG year for JVC and these are flagship releases.

I could have gone with the RS3000 (NX9), but the price was just too cost prohibitive for me. I could have gone with the RS1000 (NX 5) but I felt good that I went one step higher and went with the "sweet spot" projector"

So, for someone that demands a quality home theater presentation, how did I do with the RS2000 and in the big scheme of professional home projectors, where do I and others who bought this projector sit?
I went RS3000. But I'm coming from an RS640. From where you're coming from the RS2000 a going to be a really huge upgrade. So far most people that have seen the N5/RS1000 think it's better than even sony 570/695ES so sounds like you did great.
I would love to have been able to go with the RS3000 but the cost of it is way too high. I went with the RS2000 as well and I’m coming from the x990. I hope I’m not disappointed 🙂

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post #6576 of 13653 Old 10-13-2018, 06:01 AM
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You're right, that's a huge typo. I meant to say film by film.


I know this is not the place to ask, but does the Panny 820 do tone mapping film by film or frame by frame?
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post #6577 of 13653 Old 10-13-2018, 06:12 AM
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I know this is not the place to ask, but does the Panny 820 do tone mapping film by film or frame by frame?
Film by film
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post #6578 of 13653 Old 10-13-2018, 06:13 AM
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I went RS3000. But I'm coming from an RS640. From where you're coming from the RS2000 a going to be a really huge upgrade. So far most people that have seen the N5/RS1000 think it's better than even sony 570/695ES so sounds like you did great.
Quote:
I would love to have been able to go with the RS3000 but the cost of it is way too high. I went with the RS2000 as well and I’m coming from the x990. I hope I’m not disappointed

Years ago I used to go to CEDIA regularly and it would always be JVC who had the first big presentation of the day.

I remember looking at their Pro d-ila projectors. They were absolute monstrous machines, shiny in their black gloss coverings.

The demos always looked magnificent.

I always dreamed of owning a JVC projector.

My first projector wasn't a JVC simply because three years ago, the 3D was not well rated. In fact, many people complained that the JVC projector light output was too dim for 3D.

But this time out, I am about to own my dream. I finally bought the projector brand that I always wanted.
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post #6579 of 13653 Old 10-13-2018, 06:43 AM
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Originally Posted by Wookii View Post
Film by film
I'm sure there is an advantage to MadVR doing it scene by scene, but is it noticeable?
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post #6580 of 13653 Old 10-13-2018, 07:10 AM
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Mike - Am I reading this correctly that now it looks like the RS3000 will only be a few days ahead of the 1000/2000, and in general you anticipate all pre-ordered units being in customers hands around the middle of the month (regardless of 1000/2000 vs 3000)? I think for a while they were expecting the 3000 to arrive a couple weeks ahead, but sounds like now its all roughly together?
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To clarify - you're saying that they're getting into the hands of dealers late November or early December? That's for the US or Aus?
Ya know I remember one time our distributor's had confirmed tracking on a hot, hot, hot product, Panasonic 65VT20, next day they rerouted to best buy........really lol.......... I can tell you one thing for 100% sure, when they are here at various dealers and can be touched they are ready to roll. Until then, just like everything else in this thread, its just speculation fellow AVS member's
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post #6581 of 13653 Old 10-13-2018, 07:15 AM
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Can someone clarify— do these new projectors have the same black levels as the eshift models?
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post #6582 of 13653 Old 10-13-2018, 07:16 AM
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Ya know I remember one time our distributor's had confirmed tracking on a hot, hot, hot product, Panasonic 65VT20, next day they rerouted to best buy........really lol.......... I can tell you one thing for 100% sure, when they are here at various dealers and can be touched they are ready to roll. Until then, just like everything else in this thread, its just speculation fellow AVS member's

Well speculate then dangit!
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post #6583 of 13653 Old 10-13-2018, 07:23 AM
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Can someone clarify— do these new projectors have the same black levels as the eshift models?
The contrast numbers are posted on the JVC website for both the new models and the last generation. There are so many e-shift models over the years that its hard to make a statement that is 100% accurate across the board but the generic answer is "no", the new models don't have the same contrast as the best e-shift models. The new units also haven't been tested yet by anybody since they are not officially released so we can only go by what JVC has posted so far.
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post #6584 of 13653 Old 10-13-2018, 07:37 AM
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Originally Posted by spinn74 View Post
Can someone clarify— do these new projectors have the same black levels as the eshift models?
The Rs1000 has the same rated contrast as the existing entry level model. The RS2000 is rated for 80,000:1 vs the current mid level 130,000:1. The top lamp based id 100,000:1 vs 160,000:1. These are iris closed measurements. We do not know the iris open measurements of the new models. But the new models have so many other improvements, that there is a world of difference between this year and last year's models.
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post #6585 of 13653 Old 10-13-2018, 07:40 AM
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Originally Posted by spinn74 View Post
Can someone clarify— do these new projectors have the same black levels as the eshift models?
The Rs1000 has the same rated contrast as the existing entry level model. The RS2000 is rated for 80,000:1 vs the current mid level 130,000:1. The top lamp based id 100,000:1 vs 160,000:1. These are iris closed measurements. We do not know the iris open measurements of the new models. But the new models have so many other improvements, that there is a world of difference between this year and last year's models.
I’m comparing the NX7 to the X990r. Besides 4K what other notable improvements are there? From my understanding resolution is the least important and trumped by contrast and color.
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post #6586 of 13653 Old 10-13-2018, 08:16 AM
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What do you mean not many solutions use metadata? You just named two solutions that use metadata for tone mapping.

They have to look at metadata and possibly also measure for themselves if they are to adapt to content on a film by film, which the new JVC's do, or scene by scene basis, right? We need to test which takes precedence on the new models which I am very eager to do. I am just observing that, in either case, if the JVC is tone mapping for 4000 nits, or 10,000, then its going to be the darker of those two photos shown, hence the Sony is the bright one for sure. And in fact, this is not a good film to test metadata based Tone Mapping IMO since its pretty all over the place.

The old tone mapping of JVC, Sony, most UHD TV's are just using a standard one solution tone map curve and you use contrast slider to clip.

What does the 820 do with the Masciola Suite? It has content at 10,000 nits, yet its metadata states Max CLL is 1000.

Interestingly, here are three cases where Mad Max absolutely blows through 4000 nits.

The problem is though, these will be so fast that dynamic tone mapping probably wont be able to actually adjust quick enough to these instances. Still interesting though.

4300 nits.



7400 Nits



9200 Nits

The new JVCs do a single tone map that is designed based on the metadata. It uses MaxCLL. I have some inquiries in to JVC to answer some questions about what it does in certain circumstances, but I haven't heard back on it yet.

The 820 uses metadata as well, there is no analysis of frames being done in any projector/video processor that I know of other than MadVR at the moment. So in your test case (Masciola disc) the 820 would use 1000 nits for its tone map because Ryan used that for his metadata despite having content that goes to 10,000 nits. The only way that disc works properly for evaluating a display is if that display (or whatever else you're testing) ignores the metadata for its tone map. The Lumagen would do the same thing, but you can go in and change the MaxCLL on the fly so you could still use the disc if you want.

I will be evaluating the tone map closely with my JVC review unit and seeing what it does. I will also be talking to the engineers about it as I find things.

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post #6587 of 13653 Old 10-13-2018, 08:29 AM
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I can't wait for my 3000. I'm currently using a 65es with very grey blacks.
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post #6588 of 13653 Old 10-13-2018, 08:29 AM
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Originally Posted by spinn74 View Post
I’m comparing the NX7 to the X990r. Besides 4K what other notable improvements are there? From my understanding resolution is the least important and trumped by contrast and color.
I posted this earlier.

Native 4K
Higher ANSI
Auto tone mapping with brightness slider
No E-shift noise with 4K
Reduced sync time
Greatly improved lens memory (explained below)
Improved lens
Improved image processing
Beefed up lens supports, so less image drift and more accurate lens memory
Vertical stretch with 4K 60P sources
USB firmware updates


Lens Memory on the RS540/640:

10 memories let you save:

Focus
Zoom
Shift


Installation Mode/Lens Memories on the RS1000/2000/3000/4500:

10 installation modes/memories let you save:

Focus
Zoom
Shift

Anamorphic Mode (A/B/C). Very useful with compression lenses which require zoom.

Installation Style: Not many situations for this, but I can think of a possible use.

Pixel Align: So you can have one pixel alignment for the 16x9 setting and a different if needed for the 2.35, or one for no anamorphic lens, and a different for with anamorphic lens

Screen Mode: Auto switch between two different screen materials. If using two screens and they are different material, this would be very useful.

Masking: Good for those changing aspect ratio movies.

Keystone: Not sure why you need to memorize this, when you should not even be using it.

Pincushion: Maybe you have a curved 2.35:1 screen and want Pincushion on with 2.35:1 lens memory, but you want it off with 16x9 lens memory. Another one, I think should never be used.

Aspect: Maybe you want 17:9 chip usage with 2.35:1 lens memory to get a little more brightness, but only 16x9 chip usage with 16x9 to have 1 for 1 mapping.


Also:

One of the memories can be selected to activate the 12V trigger: With a Motorized Sled for an Anamorphic Compression lens you could set a memory to zoom to screen width, engage Anamorphic mode, do the pixel adjust for that size, and then activate the 12V trigger to move the lens into place.

Easy to copy one mode to another position so you have a starting point for the next memory. Each memory name can be edited.

The same 10 discrete codes for the previous lens memory system are also used to control the 10 installation modes.
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post #6589 of 13653 Old 10-13-2018, 08:30 AM
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Originally Posted by ScottieBoysName View Post
I'm sure there is an advantage to MadVR doing it scene by scene, but is it noticeable?
It is more than that. The problem we have right now is that more than 90% of the UHD titles on the market report a MaxCLL of 1000 (Fox, Disney, Lionsgate, Universal) and that is it. So even a player that reads the metadata is still just tone mapping to 1000 nits, but the content could be anything, including much lower or much higher. So ultimately you are at the mercy of a generic set of values. Warner and Sony consistently have different metadata, but they also consistently have wacky numbers with MaxCLL values that exceed their MaxDML, which really doesn't make any sense if it was authored properly. And even if it was right, you are now tone mapping to a value that could literally be a single pixel that was super bright over an entire movie that was dark. So that one pixel made the rest of the movie look dark and dull.

Frame by frame allows you to ignore the metadata completely and adjust how the overall APL of the image is handled throughout the movie so that you are maximizing the content to the display constantly. This should make a REALLY big difference with content that has massive changes in APL throughout the movie (lots of dark scenes and lots of bright scenes). This is why Dolby Vision is the most ideal solution (on top of 12 bit) out there. It tells the display what to do with EVERY frame, so no guess work is needed. Some people say HDR10 is good enough but that is because they have no frame of reference. Good enough is always good enough until you see better. And the only way to actually compare something like HDR10 and Dolby Vision is with two identically calibrated displays that have the same content playing side by side in real time with one using HDR10 and one using DV. And what you'd want to do is use highly variable content, so you see how well it handles vastly different APLs. You'd also want to test discs that have wacky HDR10 metadata because then you'd see what limitations that imposes on the display that uses HDR10 compared to DV.

Sicario is a perfect example. That is a movie with 0 for MaxCLL and 4000 for MaxDML. Just watch the opening sequence after the short title piece. If the display is using 4000 for its tone map, it looks muddy and flat. The real MaxCLL is about 1150 on this title. So if you can tone map to that, it looks VASTLY different with a lot of image pop and depth. I would love to compare this same sequence with three displays really. One that uses the metadata (4000), one that defaults to 1000 (closer to true MaxCLL) and one that is frame by frame (as we don't know if this opening sequence has anything remotely close to 1100 in it, so it may benefit even more from frame by frame.

While most say this and that is good enough, the truth is there is a lot of room for improvement when it comes to HDR tone mapping. We've gotten great results with the different options on the market today, but that doesn't mean we have reached a point of diminishing returns. People just assume they're watching something that can't get much better, but then they see better. It happens all the time.

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post #6590 of 13653 Old 10-13-2018, 08:36 AM
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Originally Posted by Mike Garrett View Post
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Originally Posted by spinn74 View Post
I’m comparing the NX7 to the X990r. Besides 4K what other notable improvements are there? From my understanding resolution is the least important and trumped by contrast and color.
I posted this earlier.

Native 4K
Higher ANSI
Auto tone mapping with brightness slider
No E-shift noise with 4K
Reduced sync time
Greatly improved lens memory (explained below)
Improved lens
Improved image processing
Beefed up lens supports, so less image drift and more accurate lens memory
Vertical stretch with 4K 60P sources
USB firmware updates


Lens Memory on the RS540/640:

10 memories let you save:

Focus
Zoom
Shift


Installation Mode/Lens Memories on the RS1000/2000/3000/4500:

10 installation modes/memories let you save:

Focus
Zoom
Shift

Anamorphic Mode (A/B/C). Very useful with compression lenses which require zoom.

Installation Style: Not many situations for this, but I can think of a possible use.

Pixel Align: So you can have one pixel alignment for the 16x9 setting and a different if needed for the 2.35, or one for no anamorphic lens, and a different for with anamorphic lens

Screen Mode: Auto switch between two different screen materials. If using two screens and they are different material, this would be very useful.

Masking: Good for those changing aspect ratio movies.

Keystone: Not sure why you need to memorize this, when you should not even be using it.

Pincushion: Maybe you have a curved 2.35:1 screen and want Pincushion on with 2.35:1 lens memory, but you want it off with 16x9 lens memory. Another one, I think should never be used.

Aspect: Maybe you want 17:9 chip usage with 2.35:1 lens memory to get a little more brightness, but only 16x9 chip usage with 16x9 to have 1 for 1 mapping.


Also:

One of the memories can be selected to activate the 12V trigger: With a Motorized Sled for an Anamorphic Compression lens you could set a memory to zoom to screen width, engage Anamorphic mode, do the pixel adjust for that size, and then activate the 12V trigger to move the lens into place.

Easy to copy one mode to another position so you have a starting point for the next memory. Each memory name can be edited.

The same 10 discrete codes for the previous lens memory system are also used to control the 10 installation modes.
Mike you seem very knowledgeable on this. Is it possible to have a side conversation?
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post #6591 of 13653 Old 10-13-2018, 08:39 AM
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Mike you seem very knowledgeable on this. Is it possible to have a side conversation?
Yes, but I do not do PM's.
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post #6592 of 13653 Old 10-13-2018, 08:42 AM
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Mike you seem very knowledgeable on this. Is it possible to have a side conversation?
Yes, but I do not do PM's.
How can I contact you? So are you saying you would get the N7 over the older model? Do these play well with Black Diamond 1.4?
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post #6593 of 13653 Old 10-13-2018, 08:42 AM
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Originally Posted by ScottieBoysName View Post
To clarify - you're saying that they're getting into the hands of dealers late November or early December? That's for the US or Aus?
I care a lot less about when these projectors arrive in US than I care about when Kris Deering gets his review sample (hopefully an N7) and publishes in Sound & Vision. I’ve read enough of his reviews to know when he’s really excited about a product and when he feels “meh” but doesn’t want to piss off advertisers.
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post #6594 of 13653 Old 10-13-2018, 08:46 AM
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Originally Posted by Kris Deering View Post
It is more than that. The problem we have right now is that more than 90% of the UHD titles on the market report a MaxCLL of 1000 (Fox, Disney, Lionsgate, Universal) and that is it. So even a player that reads the metadata is still just tone mapping to 1000 nits, but the content could be anything, including much lower or much higher. So ultimately you are at the mercy of a generic set of values. Warner and Sony consistently have different metadata, but they also consistently have wacky numbers with MaxCLL values that exceed their MaxDML, which really doesn't make any sense if it was authored properly. And even if it was right, you are now tone mapping to a value that could literally be a single pixel that was super bright over an entire movie that was dark. So that one pixel made the rest of the movie look dark and dull.

Frame by frame allows you to ignore the metadata completely and adjust how the overall APL of the image is handled throughout the movie so that you are maximizing the content to the display constantly. This should make a REALLY big difference with content that has massive changes in APL throughout the movie (lots of dark scenes and lots of bright scenes). This is why Dolby Vision is the most ideal solution (on top of 12 bit) out there. It tells the display what to do with EVERY frame, so no guess work is needed. Some people say HDR10 is good enough but that is because they have no frame of reference. Good enough is always good enough until you see better. And the only way to actually compare something like HDR10 and Dolby Vision is with two identically calibrated displays that have the same content playing side by side in real time with one using HDR10 and one using DV. And what you'd want to do is use highly variable content, so you see how well it handles vastly different APLs. You'd also want to test discs that have wacky HDR10 metadata because then you'd see what limitations that imposes on the display that uses HDR10 compared to DV.

Sicario is a perfect example. That is a movie with 0 for MaxCLL and 4000 for MaxDML. Just watch the opening sequence after the short title piece. If the display is using 4000 for its tone map, it looks muddy and flat. The real MaxCLL is about 1150 on this title. So if you can tone map to that, it looks VASTLY different with a lot of image pop and depth. I would love to compare this same sequence with three displays really. One that uses the metadata (4000), one that defaults to 1000 (closer to true MaxCLL) and one that is frame by frame (as we don't know if this opening sequence has anything remotely close to 1100 in it, so it may benefit even more from frame by frame.

While most say this and that is good enough, the truth is there is a lot of room for improvement when it comes to HDR tone mapping. We've gotten great results with the different options on the market today, but that doesn't mean we have reached a point of diminishing returns. People just assume they're watching something that can't get much better, but then they see better. It happens all the time.
Dang. That was like...an awesome explanation that I totally understood. Props on a great response.
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post #6595 of 13653 Old 10-13-2018, 08:47 AM
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Originally Posted by Kris Deering View Post
While most say this and that is good enough, the truth is there is a lot of room for improvement when it comes to HDR tone mapping. We've gotten great results with the different options on the market today, but that doesn't mean we have reached a point of diminishing returns. People just assume they're watching something that can't get much better, but then they see better. It happens all the time.
I'm wondering if you've seen the Optoma UHZ65 in person. I thought it had the best HDR tone-mapping of any projector I've seen so far...don't know how they did it, but it looks great. That machine isn't without weaknesses, sure, but HDR tone-mapping isn't one of them.

I'm guessing JVC has now spent quite some time refining its tone-mapping in these new ones, and I'm very optimistic on seeing the results.
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post #6596 of 13653 Old 10-13-2018, 08:48 AM
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Originally Posted by console View Post
I care a lot less about when these projectors arrive in US than I care about when Kris Deering gets his review sample (hopefully an N7) and publishes in Sound & Vision. I’ve read enough of his reviews to know when he’s really excited about a product and when he feels “meh” but doesn’t want to piss off advertisers.
I understand that, but you can't blame me for wanting adjust my expectations a bit using rumors and speculation.
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post #6597 of 13653 Old 10-13-2018, 09:24 AM
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Originally Posted by Aztar35 View Post
I'm wondering if you've seen the Optoma UHZ65 in person. I thought it had the best HDR tone-mapping of any projector I've seen so far...don't know how they did it, but it looks great. That machine isn't without weaknesses, sure, but HDR tone-mapping isn't one of them.

I'm guessing JVC has now spent quite some time refining its tone-mapping in these new ones, and I'm very optimistic on seeing the results.
I have not unfortunately.

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post #6598 of 13653 Old 10-13-2018, 09:26 AM
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Originally Posted by console View Post
I care a lot less about when these projectors arrive in US than I care about when Kris Deering gets his review sample (hopefully an N7) and publishes in Sound & Vision. I’ve read enough of his reviews to know when he’s really excited about a product and when he feels “meh” but doesn’t want to piss off advertisers.
I am reviewing the NX9/3000. I think Tom may be doing the N7, but not 100% sure.

I've never had to worry about pissing off advertisers, I don't sell ads or make any money off them. I get paid the same for a review if I like a product or hate it. The only product I've reviewed recently that I thought was in bad shape was the BenQ 9050. It had A LOT of issues.

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post #6599 of 13653 Old 10-13-2018, 09:29 AM
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How can I contact you? So are you saying you would get the N7 over the older model? Do these play well with Black Diamond 1.4?
One of my email addresses is in my signature.
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post #6600 of 13653 Old 10-13-2018, 09:39 AM
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How Did I Do?
, how did I do with the RS2000 and in the big scheme of professional home projectors, where do I and others who bought this projector sit?
You realize that nobody can answer this question but you. Very few here have even seen an RS2000 and a full review with quality testing hasn't happened with a single production model yet. On top of that, what one person thinks is a great projector another might think is a cheap toy. Only you will know if you made the right decision and are happy with your purchase.

Just get the projector and watch a lot of 4k HDR material along with your favorite upscaled 1080p movies, games, or sport content. Don't worry about what anyone thinks on the forum. Just enjoy.
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