NEW JVC RS3000/NX9 RS2000/N7 RS1000/N5 Native 4K Projectors Anticipation Thread - Page 225 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #6721 of 13667 Old 10-14-2018, 03:58 PM
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Originally Posted by microwiz View Post
So if an RS640 is 30K contrast wide open shouldnt we expect 15k for RS2000 and 7.5k for RS1000?
My math comes in close to your math.

I'd love to hear why we should have different expectations.

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post #6722 of 13667 Old 10-14-2018, 04:10 PM
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I just found out that today is the last day to pre order
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post #6723 of 13667 Old 10-14-2018, 04:13 PM
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Originally Posted by mikela View Post
I just found out that today is the last day to pre order


Glad I got mine in!
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post #6724 of 13667 Old 10-14-2018, 04:22 PM
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Originally Posted by Bytehoven View Post
My math comes in close to your math.

I'd love to hear why we should have different expectations.
I'd love to know why the RS1000 would have less contrast that the RS4XX. Anything is always possible, but I've seen no reason why it would be less at this point in time.

Cine4home measured the RS500 at 37,000:1 native with the iris wide open. The RS600 would be even slightly higher.
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post #6725 of 13667 Old 10-14-2018, 05:03 PM
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Ok checked out cine4home to get an idea based on their measurements. Basically high contrast projector's 640/540 lose contrast at a higher percentage rate then lower contrast projectors when wide open. So..

130k / 38k = 3.4 (X7500)
80k / 27k = 2.9 (my estimate)
40k / 16k = 2.5

The number on the right is the rate they get worse so im guessing 27k wide open for the Rs2000 😉

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post #6726 of 13667 Old 10-14-2018, 05:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by microwiz View Post
Ok checked out cine4home to get an idea based on their measurements. Basically high contrast projector's 640/540 lose contrast at a higher percentage rate then lower contrast projectors when wide open. So..

130k / 38k = 3.4 (X7500)
80k / 27k = 2.9 (my estimate)
40k / 16k = 2.5

The number on the right is the rate they get worse so im guessing 27k wide open for the Rs2000 😉
If its 27k wide open, honestly, that wil be very, very good.

A lot of folks are going to shrug at the difference between that and the 6XX JVC if so.

I get 41k:1 in my setup on my 9500, I dont actually think that 38k number is real world for a 5XX seiries JVC, going backwards to near 30 will not be too bad IMO. If its very low 20's I wont be too happy, and will have to see other things stack up to make that kind of tradeoff worth it, since that would be half what I have now.
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post #6727 of 13667 Old 10-14-2018, 05:23 PM
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Originally Posted by Kris Deering View Post
I am reviewing the NX9/3000. I think Tom may be doing the N7, but not 100% sure.

I've never had to worry about pissing off advertisers, I don't sell ads or make any money off them. I get paid the same for a review if I like a product or hate it. The only product I've reviewed recently that I thought was in bad shape was the BenQ 9050. It had A LOT of issues.
Looking forward for your review of the NX9 and Sony 870.
You do not sell ads but moreover you don't sell projectors so there is less reason for one to doubt your findings.
As a side note unlike audio, measurements and numbers give so little room for interpretation, what one sees is imposed upon the others, In addition calibrators are likely to be impartial and unbiased. Kris' reviews and posts here on AVS are really knowledgeable and an asset.
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post #6728 of 13667 Old 10-14-2018, 05:29 PM
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Originally Posted by woofer View Post
@Bytehoven please dont take offence, BUT gee you are reminding me so much of how "myself" was somehow trying to justify my X9500 when the Z1/RS4500 first appeared.

If the NEW JVC projectors produce and image even remotely close to the Z1/RS4500 ( and i am sure they will) then i honestly think your whole perception of what a good image is will change.
No offense taken woofer.

The 4500 is a wonder. Truly a successful application of a new approach to building a better image. How and what makes the 4500 so special would seem to make it a challenge for the nx9 to emulate.

I'm skeptical a lamp can achieve the flexible dynamics of a laser. So, i may be incorrectly adjusting my expectations, and desire a future laser based solution over any/all lamp based improvements.

When i watch the 990, i can see what i would like to improve upon. I do believe the 4500 would move my viewing experience in the right direction. It just comes down to a cost benefit calculation, which enables me to be satisfied with the level of performance i can afford.

IF, the nx9 does indeed move the ball as you think, it would demand a closer look. So, getting comparative feedback of the nx9 from experienced 4500 owners, will be of great interest.

Thanks for comments.

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post #6729 of 13667 Old 10-14-2018, 05:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by microwiz View Post
130k / 38k = 3.4 (X7500)
80k / 27k = 2.9 (my estimate)
40k / 16k = 2.5
Forgive me if Im off on this; but won't the RS1000 match the RS2000 wide open since the extra max contrast in the 2000 is mostly from the double iris? (and stepping down the RS2000 gets progressively better)
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post #6730 of 13667 Old 10-14-2018, 06:07 PM
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Thumbs up

No thats everything wide open, i think it will match Rs440 at 40k / 16k but im hoping that these new models break from this pattern and do much better when wide open.

I just have this hunch that the better ansi will be a factor here.

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post #6731 of 13667 Old 10-14-2018, 06:25 PM
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Originally Posted by lovingdvd View Post
How much would you be willing to pay for a magic off-the-shelf box (not a HTPC) that enabled you to run madVR on ALL your sources, with 3D LUT calibration, scaling, and dynamic frame by frame HDR tone mapping? Same question for all my fellow AVS members (not just grendelrt).
Stand alone: $1000. Built into the projector: $1500.

The bitterness of poor quality lingers long after the sweetness of low price has passed.
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post #6732 of 13667 Old 10-14-2018, 06:36 PM
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Originally Posted by David Mathews View Post
@lovingdvd

Would sure like $500, but then thought of cost of a good graphics coat alone, seems tough to achieve, so $1000-$1500, but would like to have USB or online update if spending that kind of money.


Edited tone. If some one puts significant effort into this, they deserve the utmost respect
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Originally Posted by bobof View Post
There are major hurdles which are pretty insurmountable with available hardware to doing this with MadVR as it currently stands; the biggest is getting HDCP protected video into the computer, through MadVR, and out again, in a way which HDMI.org would deem acceptably secure.

If you remove the requirement to support HDCP (ie you'll use some kind of external device to strip HDCP coming in) then you've still got the not insignificant cost of a suitable HDMI capture solution, plus all the high-end PC hardware.

The reality is that doing this with PC hardware will leave you with a product which has a higher bill of materials than the Lumagen Pro products.
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I would pay up to $1k
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Originally Posted by ScottieBoysName View Post
I’m listening.
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Originally Posted by grendelrt View Post
I will agree with most others, probably around 500-800. I am looking into doing MADVR now since I already have a 1080ti hooked up to my projector, but an all in one set it and forget solution with no ripping would be optimal.
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Stand alone: $1000. Built into the projector: $1500.
Great feedback guys. I should be able to post more about this tomorrow.
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post #6733 of 13667 Old 10-14-2018, 06:47 PM
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Originally Posted by lovingdvd View Post
Great feedback guys. I should be able to post more about this tomorrow.


Sweet! Can’t wait!
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post #6734 of 13667 Old 10-14-2018, 07:08 PM
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Originally Posted by lovingdvd View Post
How much would you be willing to pay for a magic off-the-shelf box (not a HTPC) that enabled you to run madVR on ALL your sources, with 3D LUT calibration, scaling, and dynamic frame by frame HDR tone mapping? Same question for all my fellow AVS members (not just grendelrt).
I would definitely be interested. I have not looked into this enough to know exactly how much improvement to expect, so not sure how much it is worth.
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post #6735 of 13667 Old 10-14-2018, 07:20 PM
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Originally Posted by Mike Garrett View Post
No it is not and my stance on this has not changed a single bit. For years I have stated you have to double the native contrast to see a noticeable difference. 60% is a long way from doubling. While as always, I welcome more contrast, just like I welcome more lumens, I am still going to saying the same thing I always have.

Apparently not. I don't think a single AVSF forum member purchased a 20LTD, even after they went on closeout below cost. What was so funny about this, many on here talked for years how they would pay extra for a truely top projector that was about as perfect as you could get for that price range. Kris Deering looked at one and said the 20LTD was what you would expect in a hand picked parts projector. JVC brought out what many said they wanted, but no one purchased.
Who would ever want a bright red projector in their room? That's a huge deal breaker.

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post #6736 of 13667 Old 10-14-2018, 07:26 PM
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Originally Posted by Craig Peer View Post
Maybe, maybe not. Bare lamps seem to vary widely. It's like the good quality ones are bought by the manufacturers and the rejects go out as bare lamps. They don't seem as consistent. But they are cheap.
The risk isn't that the bulb was rejected by the manufacturer. It's that the bulb is already used or not actually by the OEM manufacturer as stated. As long as you find a good source for these you should be OK. @Dominic Chan seems to be a good source for pure JVC bulbs.

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post #6737 of 13667 Old 10-14-2018, 07:29 PM
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Originally Posted by Bytehoven View Post
Ok, based on your observation 9500/9900 of 30k open iris, wouldn't we expect something around these numbers for the new units at open iris?

nx9 - 18.5k
n7 - 15k
n5 - 9.4k


If no, why not? If yes, Mike has said we would notice double the contrast, so we would notice the difference between the n7 and 640/990/9900.

In my bat cave ht, i could notice the difference between the 520 and 990, at -5 manual iris on both projectors and also with iris wide open on both. So, i expect I'd also notice the difference between the nx9 and 990.

I agree many things go into the viewing experience, but on off contrast has been near or at the top of "our" list. Granted when on off contrast is a superior statistic, maybe that was a factor in giving it greater priority.

The current on off contrast advantage of the new JVC units over the Sony product is one of the reasons given to choose the JVC. What is the delta on the new JVCs and SONYs? Don't we expect the Sony units to be in the 5k-15k range iris wide open?

It would just seem you can't have it both ways. On off contrast either matters and should be factored in, or it doesn't.

Will the total package provided on the n5, n7 and nx9 redefine the standard and the aesthetic? I'd conceed for many absolutely yes, but others maybe not so much.

I feel i risk very little to wait and see how things shake out. I simply request we not move the goal posts in order to serve a new narrative.
I have no idea what the open contrast measurement is, but I will bet you that it is higher than your proposed numbers.
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post #6738 of 13667 Old 10-14-2018, 07:38 PM
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Originally Posted by lovingdvd View Post
How much would you be willing to pay for a magic off-the-shelf box (not a HTPC) that enabled you to run madVR on ALL your sources, with 3D LUT calibration, scaling, and dynamic frame by frame HDR tone mapping? Same question for all my fellow AVS members (not just grendelrt).
I'm thrilled with my HTPC and use it exclusively, so zero.

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post #6739 of 13667 Old 10-14-2018, 07:41 PM
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Originally Posted by Domcorleone View Post
I have a 540 and I'm seriously considering buying the nx7 and selling my 540. I just bought it like 4 months ago - I knew I should have waited! Does anyone know the input lag on these new ones? Im game on my projector about 50% of the time and the lack of true 4k is killing me.
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I will be very interested to hear your thoughts if you switch to the NX7.
No question, but I am sure there are a few 500U and 520U members out there that are upgrading and those are very similar to the 540U. Will be good to hear from those people once these hit the streets.....
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post #6740 of 13667 Old 10-14-2018, 07:41 PM
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Originally Posted by Domcorleone View Post
I have a 540 and I'm seriously considering buying the nx7 and selling my 540. I just bought it like 4 months ago - I knew I should have waited! Does anyone know the input lag on these new ones? Im game on my projector about 50% of the time and the lack of true 4k is killing me.
I think NX7 lag will be similar to the RS540. You're going to massively benefit from native 4K in games.

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post #6741 of 13667 Old 10-14-2018, 07:50 PM
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Originally Posted by markmon1 View Post
...You're going to massively benefit from native 4K in games.
Why is that?

Also I've seen people say that HDMI 2.1 is going to be very important to gamers? And since we won't have HDMI 2.1 on projectors for a while, what's the impact of that going to be?
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post #6742 of 13667 Old 10-14-2018, 07:51 PM
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Originally Posted by markmon1 View Post
Who would ever want a bright red projector in their room? That's a huge deal breaker.
Red may not go over very well here on AVSF, but apparently a whole bunch of people. Sim2 has sold a red projector for many years. Personally, I would prefer black, but if JVC offers a version of the RS3000 in laser, but only available in red, I am definitely interested.
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post #6743 of 13667 Old 10-14-2018, 07:54 PM
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Originally Posted by lovingdvd View Post
How much would you be willing to pay for a magic off-the-shelf box (not a HTPC) that enabled you to run madVR on ALL your sources, with 3D LUT calibration, scaling, and dynamic frame by frame HDR tone mapping? Same question for all my fellow AVS members (not just grendelrt).
If it was a self contained unit, not needing a separate computer to run and could be placed between the path of the projector AFTER the preamp or receiver like the Darbee Darblet was and could deal with the 4K HDR meta data from any source frame by frame on the fly, with the capabilities of firmware updates, for say $600 or less it would be totally worth it. I'do buy it.
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post #6744 of 13667 Old 10-14-2018, 08:05 PM
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Originally Posted by lovingdvd View Post
Why is that?

Also I've seen people say that HDMI 2.1 is going to be very important to gamers? And since we won't have HDMI 2.1 on projectors for a while, what's the impact of that going to be?
You benefit on native 4K much further on games than on video. I've explained this before. But I'll try again.

Native 4K benefit comes from the small fine details. These are small background textures in things like rocks, grass, super small details. On video content, you have the scene filmed with a camera. The camera focuses on the main object such as a person. You can't really see a difference on the person. And due to the way the camera works, the background is slightly blurred as it's out of focus. On a game, everything is rendered in perfect focus on the entire screen. You notice everything. Also, games are rendered to the pixel. Textures are rendered to the pixel. An object can have a 1 pixel edge and be razor sharp. Filmed objects are captured and the resolution is sampled at a pixel resolution. The objects in the film capture are not designed around the pixel size. It's a completely different situation.

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post #6745 of 13667 Old 10-14-2018, 08:24 PM
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Originally Posted by Bytehoven View Post
No offense taken woofer.

When i watch the 990, i can see what i would like to improve upon. I do believe the 4500 would move my viewing experience in the right direction. It just comes down to a cost benefit calculation, which enables me to be satisfied with the level of performance i can afford.

IF, the nx9 does indeed move the ball as you think, it would demand a closer look. So, getting comparative feedback of the nx9 from experienced 4500 owners, will be of great interest.

Thanks for comments.
Byte, I agree with you that for years, black level and high contrast have been the talking points for JVCs and we were told that as far as 4K vs. faux k that they looked about the same from normal seating positions. Better ANSI contrast meant nothing before. And eshift noise was easy to live with.

I really had a pleasant experience using my X990, but my issue was with HDR. The image looked off somehow. I concluded it was related to tone-mapping.

Still, I was optimistic and returned to JVC, this time for the NX9.

The moral of the story is that sometimes the whole is greater than the sum of its parts.

Last thing here, as far as the the NX9 vs. RS4500, here's a little game (don't forget I have favorites )

1)Initial cost/price, 2) contrast, 3) black level, 4) resolution/eshift 8K, 5)ease of calibration 6)3D 7)operation noise--advantage NX9

1) Laser/longevity, 2)no need for multiple repeat calibrations, 3)brightness 4)Laser off/fade to black 5)lamp savings --advantage RS4500

I can't imagine the contrast of the NX9 with that 18 element lens!!!
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post #6746 of 13667 Old 10-14-2018, 08:33 PM
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^ You forgot fade to black. - 4500.
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post #6747 of 13667 Old 10-14-2018, 08:34 PM
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Originally Posted by Aztar35 View Post
Byte, I agree with you that for years, black level and high contrast have been the talking points for JVCs and we were told that as far as 4K vs. faux k that they looked about the same from normal seating positions. Better ANSI contrast meant nothing before. And eshift noise was easy to live with.

I really had a pleasant experience using my X990, but my issue was with HDR. The image looked off somehow. I concluded it was related to tone-mapping.

Still, I was optimistic and returned to JVC, this time for the NX9.

The moral of the story is that sometimes the whole is greater than the sum of its parts.

Last thing here, as far as the the NX9 vs. RS4500, here's a little game (don't forget I have favorites )

1)Initial cost/price, 2) contrast, 3) black level, 4) resolution/eshift 8K, 5)ease of calibration 6) 3D 7) operation noise--advantage NX9

1) Laser/Longevity, 2)no need for multiple repeat calibration, 3)brightness 4) lamp savings --advantage RS4500

I can't imagine the contrast of the NX9 with that 18 element lens!!!
So what did you get between the 990 and nx9?

Video: JVC RS4500 135" ST130 G4 screen in batcave, htpc nvidia 1080ti madVR.
Audio: Anthem mrx720 running 7.1.4, McIntosh MC-303, MC-152, B&W 802d3 LR, B&W HTM1D3 center, B&W 805d3 surround, B&W 702S2 rear, B&W 706s2 x 4 shelf mounted for atmos, Infinite Baffle Subs 4x15 fi audio running on behringer ep4000 + 2x12 fi audio mounted in main chair firing into back.
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post #6748 of 13667 Old 10-14-2018, 09:36 PM
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Originally Posted by markmon1 View Post
So what did you get between the 990 and nx9?
Had a great DLP XPR projector that I would have kept, but I had to unfortunately return due to it having an issue.
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post #6749 of 13667 Old 10-14-2018, 09:39 PM
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Originally Posted by Javs View Post
^ You forgot fade to black. - 4500.
added it
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post #6750 of 13667 Old 10-14-2018, 10:24 PM
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I just found out that today is the last day to pre order
That is not correct. A pre-order, by definition, will continue till they are released......

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Who would ever want a bright red projector in their room? That's a huge deal breaker.
Could use a hush box to hide most of the red. Could also use automotive wrap and turn it any color you like
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eshift , Jvc , native 4k , projector , uhd

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