NEW JVC RS3000/NX9 RS2000/N7 RS1000/N5 Native 4K Projectors Anticipation Thread - Page 276 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #8251 of 13653 Old 11-01-2018, 11:42 PM
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Originally Posted by GregCh View Post
No, the ATV4k doesn't mess up HDR data. DolbyVision content that is streamed doesn't have HDR10 metadata associated with it like UHD Blu-ray DolbyVision discs. Therefore the AppleTV has to create the metadata from the DV content. It works really well. There are only a few DV titles that have issues and that is because the ATV4k seems to be sending more than one instance of MAxCLL and MaxFALL which upsets some devices. But these are only DV titles and only a few of those.

The ATV does support Atmos on Amazon Prime with the latest release of the Amazon Prime App. It has been a bit buggy but this is an Amazon problem not the ATV4K. Amazon doesn't seem to be on top of any bug fixes in their app that they create for the ATV4k. But Jack Ryan is indeed playing in Atmos on ATV4K with the latest Amazon app.

I am not sure what apps play ripped files but I know it is possible.

The ATV4k is probably the best quality media streamer available until you go to something like MADVR on a HTPC which is a lot more expensive and requires a setup more complicated than a simple streaming device connected to a projector.
The AppleTV does either create or forward (it is impossible to tell as the Apple diganostic HUD doesn't give enough info) messed up metadata for a significant quantity of Netflix titles. By my reckoning of the stuff I've tried to watch around half of it is broken in this respect, which causes problems for a few devices. I'll be surprised if this doesn't cause issues for the new JVC units as it upsets both Sony projectors and Lumagen Pro units. It appears Netflix isn't the only offender and there are titles in the Apple Movies library which break also.

I'm not exactly sure what the deal is because so far no-one has managed to speak to anyone sensible at either Apple or Netflix.

Impirically the latest season 3 of Daredevil appears fixed while seasons 1 and 2 are broken. Perhaps Netflix have realised there was a problem with the encoding.

I want to like my ATV4K but using it for HDR is very frustrating if you have a device which expects this metadata to be static during a stream (which it should be). In that case you are better off using another device that has static HDR metadata implemented for Netflix.

See my original post and @claw 's look at other players behaviour here. For what it is worth the Sony X800 UHD player is also well behaved.
https://www.avsforum.com/forum/39-ne...l#post57039216
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post #8252 of 13653 Old 11-01-2018, 11:48 PM
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Wide end of zoom quality decision

We rebuilt the theatre when we moved into our new home 11 months ago, put in a Stewart screen with masking, which goes out to 2.92m wide in 2.35:1 (115")(49" ht). Room length is 4.68 m (15.4'). (we lost some space putting up a screen wall and mounting the speakers behind.)

Once we found out about the new JVC, put a NX7 on order ... but as info has become more accurate wrt throw, I see we have a problem. The old PJ is an older Sony, works fine, and zooms to fill the screen fine (in HD.)

From the manual, and the calculator just posted yesterday, to be able to fit widescreen out to the edge of the screen, the NX7 would have to be up against the back wall. JVC says it should have 20cm of space. If I move it off the wall, the max size, fully zoomed widescreen, will be 14cm smaller width and 6 cm smaller ht than the screen ... not fully utilizing what we installed.

-- I could accept a slightly smaller image, and it may not be all that visible, but don't know until installed.

-- I could potentially cut a hole in the back wall drywall to allow space to ventilate: bit of a hack after all the work, and will change acoustics and increase noise in the adjacent guest room. Wife not happy with that idea.

-- I could change to a Sony 695ES, which will zoom to fully fill the screen. (I realize that is not optimal, especially in this forum. What I can glean is that it won't be as sharp as the NX7, and nowhere near the NX9.)

OR... I could stretch the budget and get the NX9. That's more than double what I had planned, but will no doubt give the best image. It will fill the screen, and still be mounted 20cm off the wall despite being a bit longer, because the lens zooms wider.

The question ... there is a question for all the experts hanging around here ... is how much sharper the fully zoomed out image from the NX9 will be compared to the NX7? I would also still have the option of moving the NX9 a bit further back (allowing for ventilation) if being not quite at full zoom is beneficial to image quality.

We have put quite a bit into the theatre, and don't really want to compromise the image at the end of all this, but struggling a bit with this last little glitch.

I suppose I can persuade myself by considering the NX9 is "only" 50% more than the Sony 695, and the NX9 is about the same as what I would have had to pay a few months back to get a 4k Sony (675ES) which would trigger screen and zoom automatically. (Although I probably would have gone for the 790 if these hadn't come out).

I think I know what I'm going to do, but I'd value the opinion of others who've had to mount their PJ in non-optimal positions.
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post #8253 of 13653 Old 11-02-2018, 12:28 AM
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We rebuilt the theatre when we moved into our new home 11 months ago, put in a Stewart screen with masking, which goes out to 2.92m wide in 2.35:1 (115")(49" ht). Room length is 4.68 m (15.4'). (we lost some space putting up a screen wall and mounting the speakers behind.)

Once we found out about the new JVC, put a NX7 on order ... but as info has become more accurate wrt throw, I see we have a problem. The old PJ is an older Sony, works fine, and zooms to fill the screen fine (in HD.)

From the manual, and the calculator just posted yesterday, to be able to fit widescreen out to the edge of the screen, the NX7 would have to be up against the back wall. JVC says it should have 20cm of space. If I move it off the wall, the max size, fully zoomed widescreen, will be 14cm smaller width and 6 cm smaller ht than the screen ... not fully utilizing what we installed.

-- I could accept a slightly smaller image, and it may not be all that visible, but don't know until installed.

-- I could potentially cut a hole in the back wall drywall to allow space to ventilate: bit of a hack after all the work, and will change acoustics and increase noise in the adjacent guest room. Wife not happy with that idea.

-- I could change to a Sony 695ES, which will zoom to fully fill the screen. (I realize that is not optimal, especially in this forum. What I can glean is that it won't be as sharp as the NX7, and nowhere near the NX9.)

OR... I could stretch the budget and get the NX9. That's more than double what I had planned, but will no doubt give the best image. It will fill the screen, and still be mounted 20cm off the wall despite being a bit longer, because the lens zooms wider.

The question ... there is a question for all the experts hanging around here ... is how much sharper the fully zoomed out image from the NX9 will be compared to the NX7? I would also still have the option of moving the NX9 a bit further back (allowing for ventilation) if being not quite at full zoom is beneficial to image quality.

We have put quite a bit into the theatre, and don't really want to compromise the image at the end of all this, but struggling a bit with this last little glitch.

I suppose I can persuade myself by considering the NX9 is "only" 50% more than the Sony 695, and the NX9 is about the same as what I would have had to pay a few months back to get a 4k Sony (675ES) which would trigger screen and zoom automatically. (Although I probably would have gone for the 790 if these hadn't come out).

I think I know what I'm going to do, but I'd value the opinion of others who've had to mount their PJ in non-optimal positions.
The 695ES contrast and black levels is about identical to my 675ES I just sold. I believe the sony's sharpness will be very similar to the JVC NX7. The difference will be that the JVC contrast will just destroy the 695ES.

One option for you is to choose to simply use the full 17:9 panel for width. Doing so you should have no problem filling your whole 115" width screen for 2.35:1 content and on 16:9 content, I assume it wont matter as it's much less wide.

If you decide you want to cut into the wall you can also do so and put thin sound dampening putty pads behind the projector and you could also put up a layer of quiet rock on the other side of the wall in the bedroom for sound proofing. Once installed, your wife wouldn't care because it'll look exactly like it does now but the only difference is it'll be a bit of a hassle to install. But you probably have a few weeks to do it.

Of course, I'd not dissuade anyone from going to an NX9. I'd definitely not "settle" on a 695ES though. It won't match JVC's black levels not even close.
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post #8254 of 13653 Old 11-02-2018, 12:41 AM
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That's an overgeneralization. By no means in all instances does it do so.

I could give you some measurements and ask you to predict what the figures would be and you'd get it wrong.

There's a significant amount of content that sits between ON/OFF and 1% ADL and in order to evaluate the comparative performances within that range estimates based off trend lines just isn't good enough. Sorry.

Also it's just 3 additional measurements and I'm not lazy
I don't think it is a matter of being lazy or not, just appropriate resolution. But if you've got the time it will be perhaps interesting. I'm not sure how you can be so adamant of the importance given you haven't measured it yet! There is a lot of data for different PJs on Projection Dreams and a while ago I looked at the crossover points due to different on/off vs ANSI. As expected the on/off contrast differences massively dominates for a significant portion of the graph.

I'm pretty sure that the data to date show that the underlying relationships hold (assuming everything such as laser dimming, DI, etc is disabled).

I'm also pretty sure it could only ever be significant if there are two different models with really different ANSI contrast but almost identical on/off. In any case you'd know because they would have "crossed over" by 1% if the readings at the 0-1% end would be useful. Have you got any data yet for two different projectors where the lines have crossed over by 1%?

Here is the chart I did from the ProjectionDream data (edit: swapped for log Y scale with data shown)
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post #8255 of 13653 Old 11-02-2018, 03:20 AM - Thread Starter
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I think you should pick one. Measure too low, and you are actually relying MUCH more on the accuracy of gamma calibration rather than native contrast itself. There is no way to adjust gamma that low on projectors, so the results may not be repeatable at all model to model.

This shot is 0.156% though FYI... By the time the ship gets smaller its probably 0.1%

Maybe 0.2% is the only one you need. That interstellar shot is insanely rare as a shot that contains useful information, it may be prevalent in other films, but I wager the shots are fleeting and dont contain anything worth looking at if you get what I mean. They could be just panning shots past a dark building or tree at night, that interstellar shot is a proper considered frame. I dont remember many others like that.
Excellent point

In which case, let's ditch the 0.1%.

However, I certainly believe there is is merit in measuring the 0.2% ADL contrast. And there's loads of content between 0.2% and 1% ADL, so I think that it is very important to measure 0.5% ADL as well.

So if you can please kindly create corresponding test patterns for measuring 0.2% and 0.5% ADL that would be most greatly appreciated

Thank you

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post #8256 of 13653 Old 11-02-2018, 03:38 AM - Thread Starter
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I don't think it is a matter of being lazy or not, just appropriate resolution. But if you've got the time it will be perhaps interesting. But I'm not sure how you can be so adamant of the importance given you haven't measured it yet! There is a lot of data for different PJs on Projection Dreams and a while ago I looked at the crossover points due to different on/off vs ANSI. As expected the on/off contrast differences massively dominates for a significant portion of the graph.

I'm pretty sure that the data to date show that the underlying relationships hold (assuming everything such as laser dimming, DI, etc is disabled).

I'm also pretty sure it could only ever be significant if there are two different models with really different ANSI contrast but almost identical on/off. In any case you'd know because they would have "crossed over" by 1% if the readings at the 0-1% end would be useful. Have you got any data yet for two different projectors where the lines have crossed over by 1%?

Here is the chart I did from the ProjectionDreams data:

[IMG]
Firstly, I am looking to take measurements that correspond to the contrast performance with actual usage; so that will most certainly include whatever dynamic contrast functionality a projector has (assuming it works to the extent that you would choose to use it). For example, are you going to watch movies via these new JVC projectors with the dynamic contrast turned off? No, you are not. That said, course I will also provide the native contrast measurements as well

Secondly, I want accurate graphs in their own right. I am measuring all kinds of different projectors with very different performances and technologies and I want 100% accurate contrast graphs, thanks. Where the more data points the greater the accuracy. For example, in those graphs you have posted there are a number of 'line of best fit' type estimates that I can see wherein the graphs might not be entirely accurate, especially between 0% and 1% ADL, as well as between 2% and 5% ADL given no measurements were taken between these data points. Which by the way is why we added 3% and 4% measurements; and the same applies to the range in-between 0% and 1% ADL.

For example, here's how that orange graph might actually track (IN RED):



Thirdly, why on earth are you arguing with me regarding my wanting to take just two extra measurements for increased accuracy?

And finally, here's an instance of measurements for you... please kindly tell me 100% accurately what the contrast measurement at 0.2% and 0.5% ADL will be?:

NATIVE ON/OFF CONTRAST (0% ADL) = 21,150,500:1

1% ADL = 83,649:1

2% ADL = 44,545:1

3% ADL = 34,730:1

4% ADL = 19,461:1

5% ADL = 15,452:1

10% ADL = 8,228:1

20% ADL = 3,771:1

ANSI CONTRAST (50% ADL) = 1,035:1


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post #8257 of 13653 Old 11-02-2018, 03:38 AM
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I think you should pick one. Measure too low, and you are actually relying MUCH more on the accuracy of gamma calibration rather than native contrast itself. There is no way to adjust gamma that low on projectors, so the results may not be repeatable at all model to model.
I don't think the gamma cal plays any part in the measurements using the ADL charts as all the stimulus is 100% white. It only plays a part in the inferences you might try to draw as to "coming out of black capabilites" of a projector given a set of measures.
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post #8258 of 13653 Old 11-02-2018, 03:54 AM
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Mammoth Cave would not happen, but Lost River, about 4 blocks from my house would most likely do something, they have a dance floor and can be rented for events.

Cool, I'm jealous! Used to think Kentucky was north, poor Grandma deals with snow! Now i live in Michigan lol.

Yeah, Mammoth Cave prob no go being a National Park, just remember when we were deep in it, Ranger turned off lights and asked if we could see our hands in front of our face. Nope! If I remember right, the dance floor at lost River is near entrance? So not as dark?

We're off topic, but would be kindof cool to have a AVS meet up for summer vacation. See the Corvette museum, and then to the bat cave for a movie! It would be nice, but don't think we should use a Chrisrie though. Like @Mike Garret said, once we see it, might be hard to unsee!

To at least mention jvc anticipation topic, we should use rs1000, 2000, and 3000 for mini shootout. Fun to dream while we wait, since the new JVCs are "just over the next hill"

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post #8259 of 13653 Old 11-02-2018, 04:17 AM
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I don't think the gamma cal plays any part in the measurements using the ADL charts as all the stimulus is 100% white. It only plays a part in the inferences you might try to draw as to "coming out of black capabilites" of a projector given a set of measures.
Actually, you are totally correct there, true.

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post #8260 of 13653 Old 11-02-2018, 04:31 AM
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Firstly, I am looking to take measurements that correspond to the contrast performance with actual usage; so that will most certainly include whatever dynamic contrast functionality a projector has (assuming is works to the extent that you would choose to use it). For example, are you going to watch movies via these new JVC projectors with the dynamic contrast turned off? No, you are not. That said, course I will also provide the native contrast measurements as well
You might watch with Dynamic Contrast off if the dynamic contrast doesn't work very well, or you find it distracting. Plenty of folk do. I flick between the two as I go a while likeing dynamic contrast and then seeing an effect I dislike and turning it off. In any case it is quite possible that such dynamic contrast implementations react differently to content which has pure bright white in it vs more muted tones so caution needs exercising.

I see these charts useful in the "is it better than or worse than projector X" stakes, but I think we're a way off being able to take a number at 1% and say that means it is how much better in observed real content. I think for now seeing that the lines are above or below each other and the approximate crossing point tells you most of the story.
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Thirdly, why on earth are you arguing with me regarding my wanting to take just two extra measurements?
Well it was actually 3 extra originally I was arguing against in a space that only had 2 to start with. +150% measurements I work in test and measurement so I'm always looking at the trade-off of what you'd measure in an ideal world vs time taken. Anyway, given the time to do it, "go for it". With a clever bit of automation you could measure the whole lot in one go which would remove a lot of the pain.

From traditional lamp based units without any sort of dynamic dimming the graphs are only ever going to cross once if ever so once you've seen that crossing higher up arguably you learn little as the exact position of the curve won't be known but you will know they don't cross.

As to your phantom projector, we all know those aren't measurements without dynamic dimming / dual light engine going on (whether defeatable or not)... so there are many other questions about the real observed performance there that these charts won't give you enough answers to (and in fact might mislead if used as the basis for comparison). Looks interesting though.
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post #8261 of 13653 Old 11-02-2018, 05:09 AM - Thread Starter
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Firstly, I am looking to take measurements that correspond to the contrast performance with actual usage; so that will most certainly include whatever dynamic contrast functionality a projector has (assuming it works to the extent that you would choose to use it). For example, are you going to watch movies via these new JVC projectors with the dynamic contrast turned off? No, you are not. That said, course I will also provide the native contrast measurements as well
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You might watch with Dynamic Contrast off if the dynamic contrast doesn't work very well, or you find it distracting. Plenty of folk do. I flick between the two as I go a while likeing dynamic contrast and then seeing an effect I dislike and turning it off. In any case it is quite possible that such dynamic contrast implementations react differently to content which has pure bright white in it vs more muted tones so caution needs exercising.
Try reading the part that I have highlighted in BOLD with respect my post that you are responding to

Caution needs exercising? Not really. I think you are missing the point of the objective here.

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I see these charts useful in the "is it better than or worse than projector X" stakes, but I think we're a way off being able to take a number at 1% and say that means it is how much better in observed real content. I think for now seeing that the lines are above or below each other and the approximate crossing point tells you most of the story.

Well it was actually 3 extra originally I was arguing against in a space that only had 2 to start with. +150% measurements I work in test and measurement so I'm always looking at the trade-off of what you'd measure in an ideal world vs time taken. Anyway, given the time to do it, "go for it". With a clever bit of automation you could measure the whole lot in one go which would remove a lot of the pain.

From traditional lamp based units without any sort of dynamic dimming the graphs are only ever going to cross once if ever so once you've seen that crossing higher up arguably you learn little as the exact position of the curve won't be known but you will know they don't cross.
Again, I think you are missing the point of the objective here

What I am doing is providing contrast measurement information that considerably more relates to actual video content and is significantly more useful than just the ON/OFF and/or ANSI contrast measurements that fall outside of 99.9% of video content for the reasons already explained within my previous posts.

And you have a problem with this, why exactly?

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As to your phantom projector, we all know those aren't measurements without dynamic dimming / dual light engine going on (whether defeatable or not)... so there are many other questions about the real observed performance there that these charts won't give you enough answers to (and in fact might mislead if used as the basis for comparison). Looks interesting though.
It's not a phantom projector... it's very real and happens to be this one: https://www.avsforum.com/forum/86-ul...l#post57023378

And I asked to you provide the precise contrast measurements for 0.2% and 0.5% ADL... Obviously you can't can you?

Therefore, do you agree that yes I will need to measure these, if I want to know what they are?


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post #8262 of 13653 Old 11-02-2018, 05:13 AM - Thread Starter
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Actually, you are totally correct there, true.
Matt are you going to be able to assist with respect to creating 0.2% and 0.5% ADL test patterns, like you did with respect to 3% and 4% ADL, or am I going to creating these myself for us to use?

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post #8263 of 13653 Old 11-02-2018, 05:20 AM
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No, the ATV4k doesn't mess up HDR data. DolbyVision content that is streamed doesn't have HDR10 metadata associated with it like UHD Blu-ray DolbyVision discs. Therefore the AppleTV has to create the metadata from the DV content. It works really well. There are only a few DV titles that have issues and that is because the ATV4k seems to be sending more than one instance of MAxCLL and MaxFALL which upsets some devices. But these are only DV titles and only a few of those.

The ATV does support Atmos on Amazon Prime with the latest release of the Amazon Prime App. It has been a bit buggy but this is an Amazon problem not the ATV4K. Amazon doesn't seem to be on top of any bug fixes in their app that they create for the ATV4k. But Jack Ryan is indeed playing in Atmos on ATV4K with the latest Amazon app.

I am not sure what apps play ripped files but I know it is possible.

The ATV4k is probably the best quality media streamer available until you go to something like MADVR on a HTPC which is a lot more expensive and requires a setup more complicated than a simple streaming device connected to a projector.
The AppleTV does either create or forward (it is impossible to tell as the Apple diganostic HUD doesn't give enough info) messed up metadata for a significant quantity of Netflix titles. By my reckoning of the stuff I've tried to watch around half of it is broken in this respect, which causes problems for a few devices. I'll be surprised if this doesn't cause issues for the new JVC units as it upsets both Sony projectors and Lumagen Pro units. It appears Netflix isn't the only offender and there are titles in the Apple Movies library which break also.

I'm not exactly sure what the deal is because so far no-one has managed to speak to anyone sensible at either Apple or Netflix.

Impirically the latest season 3 of Daredevil appears fixed while seasons 1 and 2 are broken. Perhaps Netflix have realised there was a problem with the encoding.

I want to like my ATV4K but using it for HDR is very frustrating if you have a device which expects this metadata to be static during a stream (which it should be). In that case you are better off using another device that has static HDR metadata implemented for Netflix.

See my original post and @claw 's look at other players behaviour here. For what it is worth the Sony X800 UHD player is also well behaved.
https://www.avsforum.com/forum/39-ne...l#post57039216
I’m planning on using an ATV4K for movies and Netflix. Am I better off getting the Panasonic UB820 specifically for Netflix? We watch mostly Netflix Original Series.
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post #8264 of 13653 Old 11-02-2018, 05:21 AM
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Originally Posted by ARROW-AV View Post
Accurately measuring 0.1%, 0.2% and 0.5 % ADL provides the contrast performance with respect to the content coming out of and above full field black. And depending on the content there is quite the significant amount of content that falls within this range, so I consider it important to measure these further to ON/OFF and 1% ADL such that I can establish precisely what is the corresponding contrast performance between these and with respect to this range:



Nigel, correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't that to calculate the %ADL across the whole movie is not that simple task, I mean you would need to scan all the content (whole movie) and analyse the whole timescale in regards how many %ADL is present across the whole movie.
I mean, isn't that purely depends on the particular content you about to watch, as in regards the Games of Thrones the most ADL scenes are from 0.5% ADL to 2% ADL. Also how did you get this data, did you wrote your own software to calculate those numbers?

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post #8265 of 13653 Old 11-02-2018, 05:38 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by SoulOfUniverse View Post
Nigel, correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't that to calculate the %ADL across the whole movie is not that simple task, I mean you would need to scan all the content (whole movie) and analyse the whole timescale in regards how many %ADL is present across the whole movie.
I mean, isn't that purely depends on the particular content you about to watch, as in regards the Games of Thrones the most ADL scenes are from 0.5% ADL to 2% ADL. Also how did you get this data, did you wrote your own software to calculate those numbers?
Excellent question Serge

See HERE for the details with respect to ADL contrast and how to go about measuring the ADL of movies: http://projectiondream.com/en/movie-...-measurements/

Furthermore, there is in fact a dedicated thread regarding this subject, which explains everything, and also provides a bunch of different ADL measurements with respect to various movies and video content HERE: https://www.avsforum.com/forum/24-di...t-project.html

You will note that folks, such as Darin, similarly conclude that ANSI and ON/OFF in themselves alone are pretty useless measurements because essentially all actual video content falls in-between these

In other words ANSI and ON/OFF contrast measurements by no means tell you the whole picture (excuse the pun) regarding the contrast performance of a projector. For example, you could have two projectors each with very high ANSI measurements but where one massively outperforms the other with respect to black level performance with actual video content; and the same applies with respect to ON/OFF contrast as well.

In fact, I already have come across an example of a projector wherein the respective black level performance with video content is better than would be indicated by the ON/OFF and ANSI contrast measurements alone.


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post #8266 of 13653 Old 11-02-2018, 06:01 AM
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Originally Posted by ARROW-AV View Post
Excellent question Serge

See HERE for the details with respect to ADL contrast and how to go about measuring the ADL of movies: http://projectiondream.com/en/movie-...-measurements/

Furthermore, there is in fact a dedicated thread regarding this subject, which explains everything, and also provides a bunch of different ADL measurements with respect to various movies and video content HERE: https://www.avsforum.com/forum/24-di...t-project.html

You will note that folks, such as Darin, similarly conclude that ANSI and ON/OFF in themselves alone are pretty useless measurements because essentially all actual video content falls in-between these

In other words ANSI and ON/OFF contrast measurements by no means tell you the whole picture (excuse the pun) regarding the contrast performance of a projector. For example, you could have two projectors each with very high ANSI measurements but where one massively outperforms the other with respect to black level performance with actual video content; and the same applies with respect to ON/OFF contrast as well.

In fact, I already have come across an example of a projector wherein the respective black level performance with video content is better than would be indicated by the ON/OFF and ANSI contrast measurements alone.

Hi Nigel,

These are great sources, I love those technical aspects and love to calculate something myself.
In regards the ANSI and ON/OFF contrast completely agree, as we all know we don't watch at the screen when movie is played with pure BLACK scene or purely "WHITE" screen, so obviously it does makes sense to make a comparison of contrast within this required %ADL range that most of the movies are served. Thank you for the urls.

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post #8267 of 13653 Old 11-02-2018, 06:10 AM
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Originally Posted by ARROW-AV View Post
You will note that folks, such as Darin, similarly conclude that ANSI and ON/OFF in themselves alone are pretty useless measurements because essentially all actual video content falls in-between these

In other words ANSI and ON/OFF contrast measurements by no means tell you the whole picture (excuse the pun) regarding the contrast performance of a projector. For example, you could have two projectors each with very high ANSI measurements but where one massively outperforms the other with respect to black level performance with actual video content; and the same applies with respect to ON/OFF contrast as well.
While people in general agree that ANSI contrast measurements do not reflect the performance for actual video content, the same question applies to the low ADL contrast measurements as well, as they still use 100% patterns but at much smaller areas, and most of the low ADL scenes are not like that.
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post #8268 of 13653 Old 11-02-2018, 06:14 AM
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There is no way to adjust gamma that low on projectors,
You can adjust gamma at very low levels by manually editing Arve's .conf file which contains a 256-pt EOTF.
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post #8269 of 13653 Old 11-02-2018, 06:26 AM
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Originally Posted by ARROW-AV View Post
Try reading the part that I have highlighted in BOLD with respect my post that you are responding to
I was responding to your point on Dynamic contrast specifically with respect to the new JVCs, which you imply pretty much is a foredrawn conclusion would be used later on. I'm surprised that you say that because not many folk have seen this in action yet, given it wasn't operating at any of the shows; I would think it will be similarly successful to the previous incarnation so about as likely to be used (and opinion is fairly strongly divided there still).
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What I am doing is providing contrast measurement information that considerably more relates to actual video content and is significantly more useful than just the ON/OFF and/or ANSI contrast measurements that fall outside of 99.9% of video content for the reasons already explained within my previous posts.
I don't have a problem with it, it is clearly better than ANSI, though I do have a teensy bit of a problem with the implication that 4 small bright white squares equidistant from the point being measured is going to be that good an indication of the behaviour or observed performance with real content. I think these are interesting numbers and no doubt very valuable and show a trend, but I do think that past the trend (which you can observe with a few points) there is limited value in getting huge amounts of data for each unit. The eye's perception of contrast is complex and so we would react very differently to 4 brightly coloured squares vs a generally dim screen full of murkiness, even though the ADL is the same.
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It's not a phantom projector... it's very real and happens to be this one: https://www.avsforum.com/forum/86-ul...l#post57023378

And I asked to you provide the precise contrast measurements for 0.2% and 0.5% ADL... Obviously you can't can you?

Therefore, do you agree that yes I will need to measure these, if I want to know what they are? :
I mean phantom in that it keeps being brought up without much detail... I'm not doubting it exists.
If you really want to know exactly what they are, then yes, of course, as that projection is obviously a bit "interesting". But do you need to? In reality, probably not. Because 80,000:1 is a huge number at 1%, as is 2,000,000:1 at 0%. The fine detail of whether 0.1% is 1,500,000:1 or 500,000:1 is a bit of an irrelevance - it's in the noise really... Much more interesting would be thinking up how to examine exactly what is happening to projected image outside of the contrast measurements at those ADL levels, because it is obviously not straightforward and represents some serious jiggerypokery
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post #8270 of 13653 Old 11-02-2018, 06:32 AM
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Or checking the forum every 10 minutes to see if the delivery date has changed.
Hopefully not........
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post #8271 of 13653 Old 11-02-2018, 06:34 AM
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I'd rather wait as long as it takes for JVC to make certain there are no issues that they are going to have to deal with post product release.
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post #8272 of 13653 Old 11-02-2018, 06:45 AM
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Bobof, You mentioned that you work in test and measurement. Do you work in a Metrology lab? I work in a primary standards lab and I’m enjoying the fact that calibration is becoming more mainstrem in home theater.

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If that's your use case, setup an HTPC with madVR and have the best possible picture far superior than any ATV or shield. Especially in upscaling but also in tone mapping. MadVR's upscaler is on par with whatever is used to master UHD blurays from a 2K source.
How is your HTPC setup? Part of a rack, or a laptop with an hdmi out. Since I have a rack, which is pretty much full...I have been resisting the urge to go down the htpc rabbit hole. But if it's just a laptop well that might be tempting.

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post #8274 of 13653 Old 11-02-2018, 07:02 AM
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How is your HTPC setup? Part of a rack, or a laptop with an hdmi out. Since I have a rack, which is pretty much full...I have been resisting the urge to go down the htpc rabbit hole. But if it's just a laptop well that might be tempting.
You're going to need something more serious than a laptop to handle the proper upscaling and live hdr to sdr tone mapping. It's all GPU based. I have a tower on its side on my rack. It's sort of in the next room. I have a 3x12 "gear closet" behind my screen with its own door that you enter from outside the theater. The pc is in there. You can put other stuff on it I suppose if you had to.

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post #8275 of 13653 Old 11-02-2018, 07:06 AM
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[QUOTE=David Mathews;5705060]

We're off topic, but would be kindof cool to have a AVS meet up for summer vacation. See the Corvette museum, and then to the bat cave for a movie! It would be nice, but don't think we should use a Chrisrie though. Like @Mike Garret said, once we see it, might be hard to unsee!

To at least mention jvc anticipation topic, we should use rs1000, 2000, and 3000 for mini shootout. Fun to dream while we wait, since the new JVCs are "just over the next hill"

Best regards,[/QUOTE

I live outside of Lexington. I would love to see the Corvette museum and its track. They hold track night events that I would love to go to. Now back to the topic of waiting.



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post #8276 of 13653 Old 11-02-2018, 07:12 AM
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You're going to need something more serious than a laptop to handle the proper upscaling and live hdr to sdr tone mapping. It's all GPU based. I have a tower on its side on my rack. It's sort of in the next room. I have a 3x12 "gear closet" behind my screen with its own door that you enter from outside the theater. The pc is in there. You can put other stuff on it I suppose if you had to.
Kinda wishing I had done my basement differently. I left an area behind my cabinet but I have to climb thru a opening in a closet. By the time I realized hey that opening isn't a good idea...already drywalled etc.

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post #8277 of 13653 Old 11-02-2018, 07:14 AM
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Originally Posted by rg4471 View Post
Bobof, You mentioned that you work in test and measurement. Do you work in a Metrology lab? I work in a primary standards lab and I’m enjoying the fact that calibration is becoming more mainstrem in home theater.
Also enjoying it, it appeals to my nature (not necessarily a good thing, but ho-hum!). I do design work for an audio T&M equipment manufacturer. Also set up a few product test lines in the Far East in a previous life, but now mostly office based. Sometimes I miss the travel and noodles.
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post #8278 of 13653 Old 11-02-2018, 07:46 AM
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I checked again with Zappiti about their player and what HDR metadata it did send out to the display, and there must have been some confusion before (language barrier?), because they said it does send out all the HDR10 metadata, including the MaxFALL/CLL. What they don't send out is dynamic metadata for DV or HDR10+.

So, it looks like I should be all good with the JVC.

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post #8279 of 13653 Old 11-02-2018, 08:00 AM
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Cool, I'm jealous! Used to think Kentucky was north, poor Grandma deals with snow! Now i live in Michigan lol.

Yeah, Mammoth Cave prob no go being a National Park, just remember when we were deep in it, Ranger turned off lights and asked if we could see our hands in front of our face. Nope! If I remember right, the dance floor at lost River is near entrance? So not as dark?

We're off topic, but would be kindof cool to have a AVS meet up for summer vacation. See the Corvette museum, and then to the bat cave for a movie! It would be nice, but don't think we should use a Chrisrie though. Like @Mike Garret said, once we see it, might be hard to unsee!

To at least mention jvc anticipation topic, we should use rs1000, 2000, and 3000 for mini shootout. Fun to dream while we wait, since the new JVCs are "just over the next hill"

Best regards,
Did that with JVC.
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post #8280 of 13653 Old 11-02-2018, 08:12 AM
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Only Spyder5 and i1 Pro2 are supported.

With previous JVCs I used a Spyder5 Express, but only for gamma. Using the i1 Pro2 for gamma is tricky, because it is not sensitive enough for lower luminance levels. But it makes a good job with autocal color calibration.
@KarlKlammer , so you have both...got it. But, does the Express of Spyder5 work? It states Elite/Pro as supported.
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