NEW JVC RS3000/NX9 RS2000/N7 RS1000/N5 Native 4K Projectors Anticipation Thread - Page 3 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #61 of 13655 Old 08-17-2018, 01:08 PM
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Originally Posted by Buddylee123 View Post
I think moving into native 4K is a great move for JVC. I realize that it’s not that important for enthusiast but the general population wants 4K, although some of them may already be fooled by JVCs current marketing. I would say about half the people I talk to about my theater and using a projector ask if it’s 4K. It’s been pushed down their throats by all the tv manufacturers and that’s what they know. I will definitely take a look at these because I’m tired of listening to the e-shift noise.


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Now you may have an all new 4K noise to listen to.
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post #62 of 13655 Old 08-17-2018, 01:12 PM
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Now you may have an all new 4K noise to listen to.
What makes you think that?
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post #63 of 13655 Old 08-17-2018, 01:15 PM - Thread Starter
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As you say it would be a surprise, plus not such a great move if it alienates rs4500 owners...

They would have to at least double the native on/off if they don’t improve the DI so that it closes further down or add a full black plate. The only reason they get away with such a poor native on the RS4500 is because of the laser dimming and true fade to black.

I’m not very hopeful on the native on/off improvement side, not to that extent (which would only bring the new models at the level of a ten year old RS20!) but either of the other two options is fairly easy to implement and would help a lot to accept the abysmal drop in native.

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post #64 of 13655 Old 08-17-2018, 01:15 PM
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What makes you think that?
It was 100% sarcasm. How would anybody know what they sound like yet?
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post #65 of 13655 Old 08-17-2018, 01:19 PM
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Now you may have an all new 4K noise to listen to.


What noises? I have a ton of hours on my 420 and the only thing I hear with eshift off is the fan, and in low it’s pretty quiet


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post #66 of 13655 Old 08-17-2018, 01:26 PM
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3 pages in with nothing but speculation. Gotta love the internet...
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post #67 of 13655 Old 08-17-2018, 01:28 PM
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Originally Posted by Buddylee123 View Post
What noises? I have a ton of hours on my 420 and the only thing I hear with eshift off is the fan, and in low it’s pretty quiet
Well, you're either lucky and won the eShift lotto, or are deaf like my wife, or sit far enough away to not notice... :-p
Joking aside, I know someone who's had 3 units and noticed two were almost silent and one quite noisy.

Lots of us have eShift mechs which are noisy. Mine sounds like an electric razor / hair clippers far off in the distance. You can immediately pick up the sound if you turn eShift off and then back on - it is obvious which bit of the sound comes from the eShift.

The noise from mine comes and goes and gets louder and quieter depending on which "groove" it seems to have gotten into. Turning it off is like someone has pulled an icepick out of my brain. I'm over-dramatising, but it is pretty annoying.
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post #68 of 13655 Old 08-17-2018, 01:34 PM
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Well, you're either lucky and won the eShift lotto, or are deaf like my wife, or sit far enough away to not notice... :-p
Joking aside, I know someone who's had 3 units and noticed two were almost silent and one quite noisy.

Lots of us have eShift mechs which are noisy. Mine sounds like an electric razor / hair clippers far off in the distance. You can immediately pick up the sound if you turn eShift off and then back on - it is obvious which bit of the sound comes from the eShift.

The noise from mine comes and goes and gets louder and quieter depending on which "groove" it seems to have gotten into. Turning it off is like someone has pulled an icepick out of my brain. I'm over-dramatising, but it is pretty annoying.
He was talking about not hearing any noises other than the fan, if E-shift was off. I think he missed that a poster was kidding about noises a native 4K projector would make.

Added
As for E-shift, I can hear it clearly, when nothing is playing, but as soon as the movie starts, I can't hear it over the sound track. My room is fairly quiet, since equipment sits in AV room below the theater.
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post #69 of 13655 Old 08-17-2018, 01:36 PM
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Originally Posted by bobof View Post
Well, you're either lucky and won the eShift lotto, or are deaf like my wife, or sit far enough away to not notice... :-p

Joking aside, I know someone who's had 3 units and noticed two were almost silent and one quite noisy.



Lots of us have eShift mechs which are noisy. Mine sounds like an electric razor / hair clippers far off in the distance. You can immediately pick up the sound if you turn eShift off and then back on - it is obvious which bit of the sound comes from the eShift.



The noise from mine comes and goes and gets louder and quieter depending on which "groove" it seems to have gotten into. Turning it off is like someone has pulled an icepick out of my brain. I'm over-dramatising, but it is pretty annoying.


No I was saying it’s quite with eshift off, I have the eshift noise and I don’t like it. It gets louder and quieter depending on what the refreshe rate is. That’s why you hear it change.


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post #70 of 13655 Old 08-17-2018, 01:39 PM
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Originally Posted by Mike Garrett View Post
He was talking about not hearing any noises other than the fan, if E-shift was off. I think he missed that a poster was kidding about noises a native 4K projector would make.



Added

As for E-shift, I can hear it clearly, when nothing is playing, but as soon as the movie starts, I can't hear it over the sound track. My room is fairly quiet, since equipment sits in AV room below the theater.


Have you watched A Quiet Place? I kid


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post #71 of 13655 Old 08-17-2018, 01:43 PM
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No I was saying it’s quite with eshift off, I have the eshift noise and I don’t like it. It gets louder and quieter depending on what the refreshe rate is. That’s why you hear it change.
I misread your comment, seems like the sarcasm went over all our heads! :-p
eShift noise on mine is even more annoying in that for the same refresh rate the sound changes it seems at whim. Sometimes it becomes barely audible, then it will come back, within the same session, without a refresh rate change. There is something in this mech which seems to be able to get stable / unstable somehow.

As I say I know someone who's had 3 units and two were much quieter than the 3rd (but faulty in other ways). So there is clearly some variance between units, which is a shame.
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post #72 of 13655 Old 08-17-2018, 01:43 PM
 
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However, as you say, we really need only around 20Gb/s to start with (at least that's what I need to get RGB 4:4:4 at 4K560 10/12bits) and I suspect many existing good quality HDMI premium cables should support that, at least over a short distance.
Ya for PC use 20 gbps would be the first logical step. It'd also open up 1080p 240hz in HDR10 in 4:4:4 for the quad-shifting DLPs to play around with (with shifting disabled).

The problem with DisplayPort is that even for DP 1.2 (which has been capable of 4K60 in 10-bit for ages now), their cables are ridiculously expensive for anything over 6 feet. I don't see DP being used much on projectors for this reason. It would be interesting to see alternative inputs to HDMI such as network-based, but you'd need at least dual 10gbps to get HDMI 2.0a levels of bandwidth to a projector, and it would probably have even more stability issues than HDMI cables do. It's a bit mess.
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post #73 of 13655 Old 08-17-2018, 01:45 PM - Thread Starter
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JVC has historically been one of the only manufacturers to post native contrast #'s in their press releases - well potential native with iris clamped but good info nonetheless for those of us that run the iris dialed down.

I'm hoping we see that early info with the press release on the 31st and there is full transparency on the native capabilities on the new models.

@ARROW-AV - bring your minolta T10 and get us that early info pls...

It's already packed and I'm taking most of my other gear too

I'm going to attempt the impossible, namely take a load of proper measurements whilst at a trade show. I don't want to wait until November

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post #74 of 13655 Old 08-17-2018, 01:48 PM - Thread Starter
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@ARROW-AV - Where did the "go further, be the first" image come from?
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It came straight from JVC.
Absolutely correct. It came straight from JVC
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post #75 of 13655 Old 08-17-2018, 01:59 PM
 
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Well, you're either lucky and won the eShift lotto, or are deaf like my wife, or sit far enough away to not notice... :-p
Joking aside, I know someone who's had 3 units and noticed two were almost silent and one quite noisy.

Lots of us have eShift mechs which are noisy. Mine sounds like an electric razor / hair clippers far off in the distance. You can immediately pick up the sound if you turn eShift off and then back on - it is obvious which bit of the sound comes from the eShift.

The noise from mine comes and goes and gets louder and quieter depending on which "groove" it seems to have gotten into. Turning it off is like someone has pulled an icepick out of my brain. I'm over-dramatising, but it is pretty annoying.
I wonder why they don't put the beam shifting element in a vacuum, or seal the optical chamber somehow. I guess the mechanical vibrations of the shifting element propagate through the chassis of the projector. It isn't supposed to be more than 25 dbA, at least if they're using Optotune's version:

https://www.optotune.com/products/beam-shifting

I'm getting some to play around with soon, I'll make some recordings and measurements to see what's what.
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post #76 of 13655 Old 08-17-2018, 02:02 PM
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In order to claim infinite:1 they would have to offer a full black out plate or a fully closing DI, as we know that these will be lamp based and won't have laser dimming offering full fade to black.

Do you have any information confirming this? Otherwise it's a bit early to say they'll claim infinite:1 on/off with lamp-based units....
They could do the nonsense that the low cost LCD and DLP started 8 years ago and Sony followed suit with the VW1000es, which is claim 1,000,000:1.

On/Off contrast ratio measurement specs have become essentially meaningless. When Sony introduced the first DI projector the Ruby in 2006 it had an informative iris open 3,000:1, iris closed: 5,000:1, dynamic: 15,000:1 spec. It had a realistic 3X multiplier than specified that in very many, very dark scenes the projector could provide performance similar to a 15,000:1 device.


Now you have folks touting 10X to > 100X multipliers that can never be realistically achieved with any content.
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post #77 of 13655 Old 08-17-2018, 02:03 PM
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It's already packed and I'm taking most of my other gear too

I'm going to attempt the impossible, namely take a load of proper measurements whilst at a trade show. I don't want to wait until November

Good luck with that !
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post #78 of 13655 Old 08-17-2018, 02:57 PM
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Just been going through JVC's (publicly available) files at UL.

WHAT THE HECK IS A DLA-PZ1000?!
Google turns up nothing other than the UL file entry.

UL file NWGQ.E83057
http://database.ul.com/cgi-bin/XYV/t...497&sequence=1
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post #79 of 13655 Old 08-17-2018, 03:00 PM
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@ARROW-AV - Where did the "go further, be the first" image come from?
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Absolutely correct. It came straight from JVC
.
Maybe it will be the first with a quiet Eshift
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post #80 of 13655 Old 08-17-2018, 03:17 PM
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Damn now I want one but they wife will kill me.. Went from rs400 and a year later to the 520 and now another one? Help I need a plan
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post #81 of 13655 Old 08-17-2018, 03:31 PM
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Probably going to take a while to get a native 4K laser projector that costs less than the current 3 available from Sony & JVC.
Unfortunately it's true. Lasers are not used in products of mass appeal, so just like projectors, the laser industry moves like a turtle. If we had a strong market industry like TVs or mobile using them, by now we would probably have affordable RGB lasers available.



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If their lamps were affordable it wouldn't matter. But they are priced like ink jet printer replacement ink. It's a cheap way to boost sales. I consider it price gouging, honestly. The projector itself should be the main expense, not the lamps adding 20-30-40% extra depending on how long you keep it. I want to buy my next projector and keep it for ten years. Not quite there yet, obviously.
The lamp prices are even a bigger problem for me because in my next HT room I want a very big screen, so in order to keep it bright enough I would need to replace the lamps every 1000 hours.



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3 pages in with nothing but speculation. Gotta love the internet...
That's the best part. We have 13 days to let our imagination go wild. After that the boring reality arrives crushing our dreams.
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post #82 of 13655 Old 08-17-2018, 03:35 PM
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There seem to be a lot of anxiety around the possibility of a drop in native contrast in the new JVC’s with most worried that it will be bested by the 4K Sony’s. I will go out on a limb and say it will be suicidal for JVC to bring new projectors to market with contrast numbers that are bested by Sony’s offerings.

JVC made a key breakthrough with the .67” 4K chip, that is; a substantial increase in fill ratio was developed and they solved the manufacturing issues. Now scale this chip to +1” and you will have a fill ratio that will be close to 100%. The real challenge is how will JVC evolve the polarizers to match the performance of the new chips; a larger chip (and E-shift) will mask this problem and return class leading blacks and buys time for the polarizers to continue year over year incremental improvements to improve the black floor.

It is not hard for JVC to beat the Sony’s on native contrast but it won’t be done with a .67” chip on a low/medium budget offering. This is why I am betting the farm on a larger DILA chip for the new offerings.
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post #83 of 13655 Old 08-17-2018, 03:54 PM
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There seem to be a lot of anxiety around the possibility of a drop in native contrast in the new JVC’s with most worried that it will be bested by the 4K Sony’s. I will go out on a limb and say it will be suicidal for JVC to bring new projectors to market with contrast numbers that are bested by Sony’s offerings.

JVC made a key breakthrough with the .67” 4K chip, that is; a substantial increase in fill ratio was developed and they solved the manufacturing issues. Now scale this chip to +1” and you will have a fill ratio that will be close to 100%. The real challenge is how will JVC evolve the polarizers to match the performance of the new chips; a larger chip (and E-shift) will mask this problem and return class leading blacks and buys time for the polarizers to continue year over year incremental improvements to improve the black floor.

It is not hard for JVC to beat the Sony’s on native contrast but it won’t be done with a .67” chip on a low/medium budget offering. This is why I am betting the farm on a larger DILA chip for the new offerings.
First I've heard of this key breakthrough. Where did you get this information?

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post #84 of 13655 Old 08-17-2018, 03:58 PM
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Just been going through JVC's (publicly available) files at UL.

WHAT THE HECK IS A DLA-PZ1000?!
Google turns up nothing other than the UL file entry.

UL file NWGQ.E83057
http://database.ul.com/cgi-bin/XYV/t...497&sequence=1
Nice bit of detective work Sherlock!

I would say the DLA-PZ1000 is the model above the Z1/RS4500 that will/may be introduced at IFA. Sporting higher lumens than the Z1/RS4500 as well as incorporating an E-Shift element for 8k. Hopefully a mechanical DI will be incorporated, with new laser modulation programming, but I doubt it. Although we may see this in a gen or two.

With the lamp based units, I think I'm correct in what I have been speculating, the 4k native JVC's will have a lamp shutter on all the models, this way their advertising material can claim an Infinity:1 specification. This will/may be the end of JVC touting a higher than the rest Native Contrast advantage, perhaps down the track when their 4k/UHD chips native contrast increase to braggable heights, they'll revive the spiel.

I hope in the top two models in addition to the lamp shutter, the shutter will be programmed to modulate brightness in conjunction with the DI. A special ultra long life globe for these top two models as they will be running at mostly at full brightness. A manual iris for those who want to disable the DI. If not this time around, keep this in mind for the next gen JVC

I think JVC will be savvy and have the lamp shutter undefeatable, making On/Off contrast measurements difficult. But Cine4Home is sure to get his tech guy on the case!

Excited, can't wait!

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post #85 of 13655 Old 08-17-2018, 04:02 PM
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DLA-PZ1000..., that's a very odd designation. Doesn't really seem to fit any of the current naming conventions in the list. I hope that doesn't mean this is a super high end projector of 50k+

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post #86 of 13655 Old 08-17-2018, 04:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LumenChip View Post
There seem to be a lot of anxiety around the possibility of a drop in native contrast in the new JVC’s with most worried that it will be bested by the 4K Sony’s. I will go out on a limb and say it will be suicidal for JVC to bring new projectors to market with contrast numbers that are bested by Sony’s offerings.

JVC made a key breakthrough with the .67” 4K chip, that is; a substantial increase in fill ratio was developed and they solved the manufacturing issues. Now scale this chip to +1” and you will have a fill ratio that will be close to 100%. The real challenge is how will JVC evolve the polarizers to match the performance of the new chips; a larger chip (and E-shift) will mask this problem and return class leading blacks and buys time for the polarizers to continue year over year incremental improvements to improve the black floor.

It is not hard for JVC to beat the Sony’s on native contrast but it won’t be done with a .67” chip on a low/medium budget offering. This is why I am betting the farm on a larger DILA chip for the new offerings.
Purely on the .69" chip, the JVC RS4500/Z1 has demonstrated superior native contrast to the Sonys, when the lens iris is sporting a smaller aperture and the laser power is increased. JVC can use the same paradigm with the lamp based projectors.

I think they will work with the eggs already in their basket. I do agree they need to work on the wire grid polarizers and tune them to the 4k chip requirements.

But who knows you could be on the money and JVC may have a larger chip!

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post #87 of 13655 Old 08-17-2018, 04:10 PM
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DLA-PZ1000..., that's a very odd designation. Doesn't really seem to fit any of the current naming conventions in the list. I hope that doesn't mean this is a super high end projector of 50k+
Me thinks you are correct!

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post #88 of 13655 Old 08-17-2018, 04:22 PM
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Originally Posted by Highjinx View Post
Purely on the .69" chip, the JVC RS4500/Z1 has demonstrated superior native contrast to the Sonys, when the lens iris is sporting a smaller aperture and the laser power is increased. JVC can use the same paradigm with the lamp based projectors.

I think they will work with the eggs already in their basket. I do agree they need to work on the wire grid polarizers and tune them to the 4k chip requirements.

But who knows you could be on the money and JVC may have a larger chip!
The RS4500 doesn't have any inherent contrast advantage over the Sony however, on the contrary, the Sony slightly outperforms it. The reason why it's able to outperform it, is because of it's lumen range and manual iris. Not because of the performance of the actual panel. I doubt a lower budget lamp model would have the same performance as it will simply lack the lumens to make use of the manual iris on the same level.

Tho, the iris will help, I have very high doubts the contrast performance of these new units would be even remotely comparable to the current eshift line.

Also, the current Sony line has pretty decent contrast performance. Get a manual iris in them similar to the JVC and they should perform better, mixed messages concerning the new Sony model in this. I don't really get why it would be a bad thing for JVC if the Sony has it? More competition is good for everyone.

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post #89 of 13655 Old 08-17-2018, 04:23 PM
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Originally Posted by christoffeldg View Post
DLA-PZ1000..., that's a very odd designation. Doesn't really seem to fit any of the current naming conventions in the list. I hope that doesn't mean this is a super high end projector of 50k+
I personally think that relates to a television of sorts. Have you seen their short throw HDR laser displays? very very high nits.

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post #90 of 13655 Old 08-17-2018, 04:25 PM
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Originally Posted by Javs View Post
I personally think that relates to a television of sorts. Have you seen their short throw HDR laser displays? very very high nits.
I was also more thinking of a short throw projector like the VZ1000ES.

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