NEW JVC RS3000/NX9 RS2000/N7 RS1000/N5 Native 4K Projectors Anticipation Thread - Page 391 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #11701 of 13653 Old 12-16-2018, 07:13 AM
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Originally Posted by coxy2416 View Post



When ever I was experiencing the pumping it was always on low lit scenes, not really bright or dark scenes. So my iris wasn't pumping because it was going from very bright to dark or the other way around. It was pumping in a scene the was lit relatively the same. It would have on actor talking and the light level would be fine and then it switches to the next actor and the light level is perfect for a split second and then the DI kicks in and makes it to dark.

@Mike Garrett - I have fed those Matrix scenes to my dealer here in Ontario Canada and he to his rep so I am just waiting to hear back from him. I know how big of presence you have on this forum so hopefully when you feed some info back to JVC we can get some answers. This will already be my 2nd unit that I will need to get replaced or fixed since May so I either have some really bad luck or there may just be an issue with the DI. HDR material is becoming much more available these days so maybe the DI can't handle all the switching from SDR to HDR. I am moving from SDR at -11 to HDR at 0 all the time and maybe over time the gears start wearing or something?

I think markmon1 is right when he says most people just turn it off. I don't think many people realize how that DI should work and probably notice some DI issues and then just turn it off and notice the issue go way and are happy campers. But I want JVC's black levels so I the DI to work or I could have just stuck with my Runco LS-1 which over 5 years of ownership never gave me 1 issue.
Moving from -11 to 0 doesn’t really impact the lens iris, which is responsible for the pumping we see. Yes it moves but nothing like it does on every scene change so that one move is nothing for it. Moving from -11 to 0 could impact the lamp iris but that’s not used for dynamic contrast.

You’ll see it way less at -11 because the projector is already severely dimmed at that point and doesn’t have to do much scene by scene dinning unless the content calls for something dimmer than what -11 already provides.

If I were happy at -8 (I’m not) I could eliminate all the pumping I see by keeping DI on. It’s better at -4 but I prefer the bright picture of 0 and the iris is there to make things dark when needed so 0 with iris enabled has just as deep blacks as -11 with iris enabled.
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post #11702 of 13653 Old 12-16-2018, 07:43 AM
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Originally Posted by zombie10k View Post

I already had a 4K Sony projector for a while and sold it to wait and see what JVC would do. it's the sum of the parts, and I like JVC's parts.
JVC. Does make nice parts... Heck of a machine. soon enough they will be in.
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post #11703 of 13653 Old 12-16-2018, 07:51 AM
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Ok Mike, I posted the clip here http://hifiandtheater.com/files/bull-trim.mkv
You need to play the whole clip each time. It needs the lead-in from the fade to black around 10 secs in. You should set auto1 iris at 0. As I said it plays fine most the time but if you play the clip 20 times in a row or so you can get it to start pumping hard when it switches between the guy asking questions and the girl in the seat. If you play the clip even when it's working fine and watch the iris, you can see it moves as these scenes swap back and forth. Most the time you cannot tell though. That's normal behavior. Once it starts showing pumping you can see the iris clamping down very hard and not opening as far as it was as if the working states are like iris 50 and 100 then it moves to 30 and 70 for some reason. If you keep playing the track after the pumping starts, you can see it eventually starts working fine again for several plays.

It should be noted that I always let my projector warm up for about an hour first. I've never seen any pumping when the projector first fires up.

The clip is in h265 format.
Have full day today, so may not get to view. Please email me the serial number of your projector. I have sent the link in for evaluation.
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post #11704 of 13653 Old 12-16-2018, 07:55 AM
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Regarding Dynamic Iris:

I have the RS400, so lens iris only. When it was brand new, I activated DI, trying out both Auto 1 and Auto 2, but found the action in either mode to be so grossly obvious that I turned it off. I was unable to understand why so many here raved about how the DI improved things. Different strokes for different folks, so I just disabled mine. I would try it again from time to time, but nothing changed. Posts indicated some are just more sensitive to iris pumping, so I assumed I was just hyper-sensitive in this regard.

After about 6 to 9 months, I discovered that my Iris become unresponsive at times, in that I could 'change' the Manual Iris setting on-screen, which shows it varying from 0 to -15, but in fact, the iris stayed fixed in the fully open position. Sometimes I could play with it, and it would eventually start responding, but after some more time, nothing I could do could get the Iris moving.

Just before the Warranty expired, I sent it in for repair to JVC/Mendtronix. They replaced the Optical Block. When I received it back, the Iris was operating properly, as expected. I then tried out the DI again, and much to my surprise, its action was essentially invisible (other than end credits, also as expected).

So, my brand new RS400 was received with a sub-optimally function Iris, with my not being aware of it at all until it eventually completely failed.

With all the talk here about DI, possible firmware defect, etc., I thought I'd throw this out for consideration. Given that my Iris was working, but not working well or as it should, even when brand new, it really makes me wonder if the different experiences people have with their DI might be at least partly explained by how well their Iris is in fact working. It may not be a "working" or "not working" distinction, but a continuum between these 2 extremes. I can imagine a continuum of 'fluidity' and/or 'speed' in how the iris mechanically opens and closes, that will vary from unit to unit.

This may or may not be the case, but is consistent with what I've been reading about DI over the last several years.

And for what it's worth, my DI remains mostly invisible in action, with fairly uncommon exceptions in scenes where the APL must be riding that razor edge between 2 iris states defined by whatever algorithm the DI uses.

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post #11705 of 13653 Old 12-16-2018, 08:17 AM
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Originally Posted by DavidHir View Post
Here is one example that proper tone mapping can do, but you definitely have to get enough lumens too. But you'll see, the SDR Blu-ray image is terribly clipped and brighter, where as the UHD/HDR disc resolves far more highlights naturally looking more like film. These are not quite the exact frame (maybe off a couple) or size of image as I used my cell phone to just snap a couple of pics off the screen (with Die Hard), but I only did this to illustrate the difference that was evident. Earlier I mentioned how I see so much clipping on BD compared to UHD BD (and 820 helps). This is a good example.

Attachment 2496896

Attachment 2496900
What movie is that from? I'm curious to what that looks like on mine, being tone mapped to SDR.

I can see the difference, but wonder what the actual film or DCI presentation was like. I wouldn't have thought that until HDR came along we've been getting badly clipped content all this time and nobody knew about it if you get my drift. And of course, not every scene makes use of HDR anyway so the entire movies isn't going to be much different, and when it does it's not obvious unless you're going to compare. A bit like IMAX movies on a scope screen - does it really matter that the little extra top and bottom is missing? And of course there are plenty of examples where things don't look right and you have to tweak the image mid movie to fix it. I think for every good example, there are a great many more bad examples, at least, that's my experience from the forums and demos.

The N5 when I saw it still needed to use a custom curve with a movie that didn't contain the metadata, and Infinity War looked dull and dismal compared to the Blu Ray for example, so things still aren't ready for prime time. With a disk that did inclde the data, the movie looked just fine, but didn't have anything that stood out in an obvious way to say it was using HDR - you'd have to compare to find out judging by the scenes that were shown. I think MadVR still looks like the only good option for pretty much trouble free HDR playback which would be set and forget with no tweaking.

I could run mine brighter and raise the black floor to get HDR I guess, but for me that would be a retrograde step to the image I'm currently getting for both BD and UHD disks. I'm not sure i want to compromise the image completely just for a few highlights/differences here and there, and I don't want to be second guessing the image when it doesn't look right. Currently everything looks good and I never feel the need to tweak. I just sit back and enjoy the movie. But like I keep saying, I never say never and I may give it a go at some stage and maybe I might think it's worth having one day, but nothing I've seen in real terms has convinced me it's something i want right now. 3D is much the same - definitely a big difference in image presentation but again, not something that really floats my boat, and the differences there are far greater then with HDR. But there are plenty of people here who love 3D and enjoy it very much. unlike 3D, I think HDR is here to stay though.

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post #11706 of 13653 Old 12-16-2018, 08:19 AM
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Going back to the iris topic, I just want to emphasize that all the JVC projectors I've had since the manufacturer included the dynamic iris (DI) function have had their DIs work excellently. Unlike some DIs on different brand machines I had in the past, JVC's iris implementation was consistently smooth in operation (minus, like I said, very rarely slight pumping on credits on a black background). My static iris settings were either -4, -10, or 0, if that helps.
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post #11707 of 13653 Old 12-16-2018, 08:24 AM
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Originally Posted by Gary Lightfoot View Post
The N5 when I saw it still needed to use a custom curve with a movie that didn't contain the metadata, and Infinity War looked dull and dismal compared to the Blu Ray for example, so things still aren't ready for prime time. With a disk that did inclde the data, the movie looked just fine, but didn't have anything that stood out in an obvious way to say it was using HDR - you'd have to compare to find out judging by the scenes that were shown.

Gary, are you saying the N5/NX5 needed a curve even with its auto tone map function in use?
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post #11708 of 13653 Old 12-16-2018, 08:29 AM
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Originally Posted by markmon1 View Post
Of course you can. If your 16x9 screen is already as wide as the room allows, then a masked 16x9 screen becomes a 2.35:1 screen that's as wide as the room allows for. Subtracting from the impact of the 16x9 unmasked does not improve upon the impact of the 2.35:1 masked.
If you view scope letterboxed on a 16:9 screen, the image is smaller and less immersive than if projected the same height and wider - it's supposed to be wider not smaller than 16:9.

Compared to the letterboxed image, when projected on a scope screen of the same height as the 16:9 screen, the image is 33% wider but also 77% larger than the letterboxed image would be. That's a considerable difference that has far more visual impact and that's the intent. You just don't get that effect on a 16:9 screen

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post #11709 of 13653 Old 12-16-2018, 08:43 AM
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Did not go into the studs?
No, the ceiling panels are very light and you can screw directly into the drywall. If you over tighten and strip the 'thread' the screw has made in the drywall, then there's a possibility it will fall out over time. The trick I guess is to screw into the drywall until you are sure it has gone as far as it will go and that's the point where it starts to feel tight. If you can see how close the panel is to the ceiling then you'll know it's not going to pull the panel any closer or tighter, so stop screwing.

My room is all black velvet and the screws are black, so nothing is visible unless you look with a torch, even with the lights on. If there are visible screw heads, you can cover them with circles of the same material glued onto them, or use a velcro 'dot' that you can buy - you can get get rolls of them with dots of hook and loop dots, and they're a neat and tidy way of covering screw heads.

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post #11710 of 13653 Old 12-16-2018, 08:56 AM
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Originally Posted by Gary Lightfoot View Post
What movie is that from? I'm curious to what that looks like on mine, being tone mapped to SDR.

I can see the difference, but wonder what the actual film or DCI presentation was like. I wouldn't have thought that until HDR came along we've been getting badly clipped content all this time and nobody knew about it if you get my drift. And of course, not every scene makes use of HDR anyway so the entire movies isn't going to be much different, and when it does it's not obvious unless you're going to compare. A bit like IMAX movies on a scope screen - does it really matter that the little extra top and bottom is missing? And of course there are plenty of examples where things don't look right and you have to tweak the image mid movie to fix it. I think for every good example, there are a great many more bad examples, at least, that's my experience from the forums and demos.

The N5 when I saw it still needed to use a custom curve with a movie that didn't contain the metadata, and Infinity War looked dull and dismal compared to the Blu Ray for example, so things still aren't ready for prime time. With a disk that did inclde the data, the movie looked just fine, but didn't have anything that stood out in an obvious way to say it was using HDR - you'd have to compare to find out judging by the scenes that were shown. I think MadVR still looks like the only good option for pretty much trouble free HDR playback which would be set and forget with no tweaking.

I could run mine brighter and raise the black floor to get HDR I guess, but for me that would be a retrograde step to the image I'm currently getting for both BD and UHD disks. I'm not sure i want to compromise the image completely just for a few highlights/differences here and there, and I don't want to be second guessing the image when it doesn't look right. Currently everything looks good and I never feel the need to tweak. I just sit back and enjoy the movie. But like I keep saying, I never say never and I may give it a go at some stage and maybe I might think it's worth having one day, but nothing I've seen in real terms has convinced me it's something i want right now. 3D is much the same - definitely a big difference in image presentation but again, not something that really floats my boat, and the differences there are far greater then with HDR. But there are plenty of people here who love 3D and enjoy it very much. unlike 3D, I think HDR is here to stay though.
The movie I used was Die Hard. Apollo 13 has some good examples I compared recently such as the Nasa control panel scenes. I think people easily get used to certain things until they have something different or better that comes along to compare. Also, we know 35mm film has more dynamic range than SDR video. I recall back in the early to mid 2000s the push back against HD DVD and BD. Many claimed DVD was "good enough". I even remember someone claiming DVD looked more "filmlike" since it was softer and HD DVD/BD looked too sharp and digital. Funny.

Everything is tone mapping (whether we call it HDR or not) as it's simply a curve we are applying to our projectors at the end of the day. Since the spec tracks along more brightness (EOTF), more light will help at the end of the day no matter what you're using. If you don't want a brighter image, you can simply still increase the light output on your LS and then reduce the luminance slider on your 900. This will give better results versus less light output on your LS while increasing the slider on the 900. More light always equals less compromise with tone mapping and HDR. Adjusting the iris setting on the LS does not have a dramatic effect on the black floor as the contrast ratio always stays in the ~14,000-20,000:1 range if I recall from wide open to fully closed. It's a lot different compared to the JVC RS5/6XX where there is a dramatic difference between open wide and closed. If you do decide to go with the 820, the HDR Optimizer will also help you a lot because it will look at the metadata of the disc versus just using the static curve on your 900 which is applied to every UHD disc which doesn't work as well.

More light also means increased color volume with WCG.

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post #11711 of 13653 Old 12-16-2018, 09:19 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by coxy2416 View Post
When ever I was experiencing the pumping it was always on low lit scenes, not really bright or dark scenes. So my iris wasn't pumping because it was going from very bright to dark or the other way around. It was pumping in a scene the was lit relatively the same. It would have an actor talking and the light level would be fine and then it switches to the next actor and the light level is perfect for a split second and then the DI kicks in and makes it to dark.
I've seen this exact behavior on my RS620, but it's only happened a couple times. Recently, I've watched several movies without seeing the issue. I'm starting to think it's a bug/glitch that gets activated for some unknown reason...
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post #11712 of 13653 Old 12-16-2018, 09:34 AM
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Gary, are you saying the N5/NX5 needed a curve even with its auto tone map function in use?
Not all sources have the metadata, so the projector can't auto tone map. Infinity War was one example, and I don't think Disney disks yet contain the maxfall/maxcll data. When you go into the menu with a disk playing you will see the data is missing and the settings are at default so the image can look darker. When the data is present, the settings have been adjusted automatically and everything looks good.

So for content without the data, you'll still need select a preset curve or a custom curve or manually tweak it until it looks right.

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post #11713 of 13653 Old 12-16-2018, 09:34 AM
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Everything is tone mapping (whether we call it HDR or not) as it's simply a curve we are applying to our projectors at the end of the day. Since the spec tracks along more brightness (EOTF), more light will help at the end of the day no matter what you're using. If you don't want a brighter image, you can simply still increase the light output on your LS and then reduce the luminance slider on your 900. This will give better results versus less light output on your LS while increasing the slider on the 900. More light always equals less compromise with tone mapping and HDR. Adjusting the iris setting on the LS does not have a dramatic effect on the black floor as the contrast ratio always stays in the ~14,000-20,000:1 range if I recall from wide open to fully closed. It's a lot different compared to the JVC RS5/6XX where there is a dramatic difference between open wide and closed.

More light also means increased color volume with WCG.
Laser machines do a great job at carrying over or doing the tone mapping themselves, I think. In fact the best tone mapping I've seen from a projector doing the work was in a sub $10k, heck a sub $4K laser, that was the UHZ65.
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post #11714 of 13653 Old 12-16-2018, 10:03 AM
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The movie I used was Die Hard. Apollo 13 has some good examples I compared recently such as the Nasa control panel scenes. I think people easily get used to certain things until they have something different or better that comes along to compare. Also, we know 35mm film has more dynamic range than SDR video. I recall back in the early to mid 2000s the push back against HD DVD and BD. Many claimed DVD was "good enough". I even remember someone claiming DVD looked more "filmlike" since it was softer and HD DVD/BD looked too sharp and digital. Funny.

Everything is tone mapping (whether we call it HDR or not) as it's simply a curve we are applying to our projectors at the end of the day. Since the spec tracks along more brightness (EOTF), more light will help at the end of the day no matter what you're using. If you don't want a brighter image, you can simply still increase the light output on your LS and then reduce the luminance slider on your 900. This will give better results versus less light output on your LS while increasing the slider on the 900. More light always equals less compromise with tone mapping and HDR. Adjusting the iris setting on the LS does not have a dramatic effect on the black floor as the contrast ratio always stays in the ~14,000-20,000:1 range if I recall from wide open to fully closed. It's a lot different compared to the JVC RS5/6XX where there is a dramatic difference between open wide and closed. If you do decide to go with the 820, the HDR Optimizer will also help you a lot because it will look at the metadata of the disc versus just using the static curve on your 900 which is applied to every UHD disc which doesn't work as well.

More light also means increased color volume with WCG.
I've got Apollo 13 on UHD so if it's not too much bother, can you take a couple of pics like you did for Die hard for me? Thanks.

I've seen people having problems getting the correct colour volume as more brightness seems to white-out the colour, so less colour volume as a result. Someone here was having that issue with their JVC but it may have been an earlier model. I'm guessing it's not so much a problem now.

I've a feeling the 820 would be the easiest way to go using the linker, though I do have a 'gaming' PC with a 1060 that could possibly be brought into use with MadVR. I'll need a UHD drive for that to work.

I'll probably need to recalibrate the pj for HDR so Ill either have to get my dealer involved as he has some expensive gear or have a play myself, though I'm not sure how good colorimiters are with the lasers blue output, and I need a new one. My i1 spectro is probably no good now for that either.

The problem really lies with me seeing something in real terms that can convince me it's something I want or need. I see so many issues with it in real terms and a mixed bag of good and bad examples here on the forum I can only really rely on what I see with my own eyes - and that's with calibrated displays in good viewing conditions which so far hasn't been able to convince me. So far the cons outweigh the pros from what I've seen so it needs a hard sell.

I know a guy near me with an LS10000 and a Lumagen which i think he is using for HDR so I might see if I can get a look at what he's getting image wise.

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Originally Posted by elmalloc
Who says Cameron is "right" and why do we care about him so much - lol!

I trust Gary Lightfoot more than James Cameron.
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post #11715 of 13653 Old 12-16-2018, 10:29 AM
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Originally Posted by Gary Lightfoot View Post
I've got Apollo 13 on UHD so if it's not too much bother, can you take a couple of pics like you did for Die hard for me? Thanks.

I've seen people having problems getting the correct colour volume as more brightness seems to white-out the colour, so less colour volume as a result. Someone here was having that issue with their JVC but it may have been an earlier model. I'm guessing it's not so much a problem now.

I've a feeling the 820 would be the easiest way to go using the linker, though I do have a 'gaming' PC with a 1060 that could possibly be brought into use with MadVR. I'll need a UHD drive for that to work.

I'll probably need to recalibrate the pj for HDR so Ill either have to get my dealer involved as he has some expensive gear or have a play myself, though I'm not sure how good colorimiters are with the lasers blue output, and I need a new one. My i1 spectro is probably no good now for that either.

The problem really lies with me seeing something in real terms that can convince me it's something I want or need. I see so many issues with it in real terms and a mixed bag of good and bad examples here on the forum I can only really rely on what I see with my own eyes - and that's with calibrated displays in good viewing conditions which so far hasn't been able to convince me. So far the cons outweigh the pros from what I've seen so it needs a hard sell.

I know a guy near me with an LS10000 and a Lumagen which i think he is using for HDR so I might see if I can get a look at what he's getting image wise.
I'll try to get some Apollo 13 pics posted. If you go with the 820, be sure to have the player output SDR/2020 with the HDR Optimizer On. As an experiment, you could try opening the iris fully wide (assuming you use medium laser?) and then adjust the luminance slider to an appropriate or satisfying level of brightness/APL. I've also found the white tone control on it very effective but to start, I would just try the general slider first. You also want to use a 2.4 flat gamma for the 820 tone mapping.

Last edited by DavidHir; 12-16-2018 at 10:49 AM.
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post #11716 of 13653 Old 12-16-2018, 10:48 AM
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It must be less noticeable to some. My RS400 pumped just like the video, I just assumed some didn't mind it so i turned it off. My RS540 also pumps at times and is just as distracting so i disabled it. The native contrast is so good i dont miss it anyways.
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post #11717 of 13653 Old 12-16-2018, 10:58 AM
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If you do decide to go with the 820, the HDR Optimizer will also help you a lot because it will look at the metadata of the disc versus just using the static curve on your 900 which is applied to every UHD disc which doesn't work as well.
My Panasonic 900 has the current firmware but there isn't any menu which equates to the "HDR Optimizer" of the 820. Could you expand on your comment about the 900's "Static Curve" interaction with metadata? Thanks!
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post #11718 of 13653 Old 12-16-2018, 11:11 AM
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Originally Posted by microwiz View Post
It must be less noticeable to some. My RS400 pumped just like the video, I just assumed some didn't mind it so i turned it off. My RS540 also pumps at times and is just as distracting so i disabled it. The native contrast is so good i dont miss it anyways.
I really don't think pumping is normal on these projectors outside of the odd occasion that it happens. What would be the point of having a DI if it didn't work 1/2 the time?

I've seen my projector fly through that Matrix scene without an issue and then all off a sudden it's not working? Tells me something is wrong and needs to be fixed.

I think there are a lot of people like yourself that probably thought it was normal and just disengage it. But I do not think there is anything normal about it.
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post #11719 of 13653 Old 12-16-2018, 11:12 AM
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Originally Posted by 5mark View Post
I've seen this exact behavior on my RS620, but it's only happened a couple times. Recently, I've watched several movies without seeing the issue. I'm starting to think it's a bug/glitch that gets activated for some unknown reason...
Totally agree. There is a bug or glitch somewhere!
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post #11720 of 13653 Old 12-16-2018, 11:13 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by docrog View Post
My Panasonic 900 has the current firmware but there isn't any menu which equates to the "HDR Optimizer" of the 820. Could you expand on your comment about the 900's "Static Curve" interaction with metadata? Thanks!
That is one reason you would need to upgrade to the 820. The 900 simply provides a static curve which may or may not look good on some discs. By static, I mean it doesn't change as it applies the same curve 100% of the time (until you alter it). This can look good on some discs, but for others it may require you to tweak it. It's the same reason why people need multiple Arve curves for all titles to look decent. The Optimizer looks tone maps to the MaxCLL or MaxDML data of each disc - this works well for 99% of the titles out there.
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post #11721 of 13653 Old 12-16-2018, 11:15 AM
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Originally Posted by Aztar35 View Post
Going back to the iris topic, I just want to emphasize that all the JVC projectors I've had since the manufacturer included the dynamic iris (DI) function have had their DIs work excellently. Unlike some DIs on different brand machines I had in the past, JVC's iris implementation was consistently smooth in operation (minus, like I said, very rarely slight pumping on credits on a black background). My static iris settings were either -4, -10, or 0, if that helps.
My X790 had also run flawlessly since May outside a few odd occasions so the DI can work properly and now it is not. Just need to figure out why

Have to wait to see what the JVC rep has to say.
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post #11722 of 13653 Old 12-16-2018, 11:21 AM
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Originally Posted by coxy2416 View Post
I really don't think pumping is normal on these projectors outside of the odd occasion that it happens. What would be the point of having a DI if it didn't work 1/2 the time?

I've seen my projector fly through that Matrix scene without an issue and then all off a sudden it's not working? Tells me something is wrong and needs to be fixed.

I think there are a lot of people like yourself that probably thought it was normal and just disengage it. But I do not think there is anything normal about it.
Its a preference thing, even if you dont notice the pumping you still would have to prefer the dimer image that is created when the di clamps down. Some do prefer that so it works for them.

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post #11723 of 13653 Old 12-16-2018, 11:43 AM
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Originally Posted by coxy2416 View Post
My X790 had also run flawlessly since May outside a few odd occasions so the DI can work properly and now it is not. Just need to figure out why

Have to wait to see what the JVC rep has to say.
It sounds like a mechanical problem with the iris that is just getting worse.

I don't know if that was you, but that video of the iris with that squeaky binding noise wasn't right either.
It sounded like something was being galled due to a lack of lubrication on the moving parts.

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post #11724 of 13653 Old 12-16-2018, 01:17 PM
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Originally Posted by markmon1 View Post
Of course you can. If your 16x9 screen is already as wide as the room allows, then a masked 16x9 screen becomes a 2.35:1 screen that's as wide as the room allows for. Subtracting from the impact of the 16x9 unmasked does not improve upon the impact of the 2.35:1 masked.
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If you view scope letterboxed on a 16:9 screen, the image is smaller and less immersive than if projected the same height and wider - it's supposed to be wider not smaller than 16:9.

Compared to the letterboxed image, when projected on a scope screen of the same height as the 16:9 screen, the image is 33% wider but also 77% larger than the letterboxed image would be. That's a considerable difference that has far more visual impact and that's the intent. You just don't get that effect on a 16:9 screen
If the widest 2.35 screen that can fit a room is 117" wide but the room will allow a 66" high screen, I can't agree that I should choose a 128" 2.35 screen (117x50) over a 135" 16:9 screen (117x66).

Football, Basketball and Hockey will be more impressive on on the larger 16:9. Netflix 18:9 4K content as well. I can't justify lessening the experience for such content just to preserve the illusion of a more immersive experience with scope movies.

After watching 4K60 sports programming from Directv in 16:9 HLG, I can't imagine ever wanting to reduce the screen height.
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post #11725 of 13653 Old 12-16-2018, 01:55 PM
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The X 950 ( RS 600) doesn't have mask.
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post #11726 of 13653 Old 12-16-2018, 01:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by claw View Post
If the widest 2.35 screen that can fit a room is 117" wide but the room will allow a 66" high screen, I can't agree that I should choose a 128" 2.35 screen (117x50) over a 135" 16:9 screen (117x66).

Football and Hockey will be more impressive on on the larger 16:9. Netflix 18:9 4K content as well. I can't justify lessening the experience for such content just to preserve the illusion of a more immersive experience with scope movies.
What you're supposed to do is make sure your seats are the correct distance from the 16:9 image so that it's visibly as large as you can enjoy for watching movies. Then scope is just wider and more immersive as intended. If you sit too far back and 16:9 is too small on a scope screen, that's a design/install issue. Seating distance and viewing angles are important.

2.4 x the screen height is a nice starting distance for scope/CIH to work (you can sit closer if you want), but its the height that should dictate where you place your seats, then the wider movie formats like scope become more immersive, just as designed, rather than smaller. The problem is most people don't know the intent of scope or the importance of seating distance and viewing angles over physical screen size.

Using your examples, if you sit say 120 inches from the 117 x 50 scope screen, your 16:9 image will visibly be the same size as the 117 x 60 screen if viewed from 144 inches away (both have the same 40 degree viewing angle for 16:9 and fill the same area on your retina). The difference being that with the 50" tall screen and closer seating, your scope image will now be visibly wider and more immersive - 77% larger then when viewing the taller 16:9 screen from further back at the same seating distance ratio of 2.4.

With the taller 16:9 screen, both scope and 16:9 have a 40 degree horizontal viewing angle and scope is visibly smaller and less immersive.

If you had the 60" tall screen masked to scope for movies and watched everything at 50" high for movies, you could use the 60 height for IMAX (and sports too if you wanted), but that only works if you have your seats closer than they currently are. IMAX and 16:9 aren't supposed to be the same size, they're supposed to give you a different movie experience.

I think most people know that IMAX is supposed to be a very large viewing experience and you're sitting a lot closer to the screen than in a normal theatre, but not many people seem to know that scope should be the same height and wider than 16:9. and not smaller like on a tv.

Sports are often looked at in a different way and most people want that as large as possible, and that's another choice of course. Some of us here are just trying to point out that scope is supposed to be wider and more immersive than 16:9 not smaller.
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Who says Cameron is "right" and why do we care about him so much - lol!

I trust Gary Lightfoot more than James Cameron.
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post #11727 of 13653 Old 12-16-2018, 02:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gary Lightfoot View Post
What you're supposed to do is make sure your seats are the correct distance from the 16:9 image so that it's visibly as large as you can enjoy for watching movies.

@Gary Lightfoot , @jeahrens , @RapolloAV , @Mike Garrett , @Josh Z , @dkersten , @Wookii and others.



Thanks for all the constructive and informative feedback on aspect ratio “religion”, various masking options (both external and internal to projector with JVC's installation modes -on topic! )

Sorry my poor worded post on “CIW” sparked so much discussion, but I learned something, and that's always a good thing. While not “Orthodox” in my beliefs, I am actually a bit closer than you think in my beliefs as a “layperson” in the aspect ratio religion. Your feedback admittedly did strengthen my faith


I was aware of size and seating distance recommendations when I bought current 16:9. At 9-10 feet viewing distance of 135” 16:9 masked down to ScopE ==> 49” height is approaching min 2 times height seating distance recommendations for ScopE I wanted. (brightness and 7.4.2 speaker placement further constrained size and seating choice)

Acoustic Frontiers has a good pic with various organizations recommendations on seating distance all on same pic. Assume you “Aspect Ratio Priests, Imams, Rabbis, Gurus etc” have already seen it ;-)
http://www.acousticfrontiers.com/2013314viewing-angles/

I fully understand recommendations take into consideration both resolution, and vertical viewing comfort on typically framed content. I actually just lowered screen 6 inches to minimize vertical angle, but as low as I can go now with out the “sock puppets” getting unruly. I do have a power head rest adjustment on recliner to minimize fatigue issues from having to look up higher than human head designed.

I failed to originally mention for much of 16:9 content, I do watch in CIH format. Without tight framing, agree vertical viewing angles for main content subject matter can be a bit much, headrest or no headrest.

Its certain content like some movies, Planet Earth, and IMAX that I built the single axis CIW masking system for. Am not trying to “fill up every square inch if I can”. Similar, but not the same. For immersion, horizontal viewing angle important, and since I'm not fully at min distance, vertical sizing of “Iron Man” still not too big an issue in my setup when I unmask and zoom out to fill horizontal field of view more. I do prefer ScopE.

I was not aware of “CIA” term. With all your excellent feedback, I now want to totally redesign the single way masking system I just finished to make it 3 or 4 way masking. Thanks! (I think?) Your discussion also helped decision to stay on Arduino path for now since the JVC single 12V trigger (on topic! ) seems too limiting for controlling both anamorphic lens sled and external masking system. (JVC's internal masking is tempting for ease, but black velvet sure is nice)

I'll edit original post to say meant CIW masking, not fully at min distance, and recommendation to read all the informative discussion that follows.


RapalloAV, I also want to say thanks, I do remember some of the nice theaters with a good projectionist running them. I remember “my 1st time”, when initial prelim content was over, and the masking expanded out to ScopE, I thought “now we are in for something special!”.


Edits, grammer, and might have to clean my keyboard, the “E” seems to be sticking...
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Last edited by David Mathews; 12-16-2018 at 02:40 PM.
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post #11728 of 13653 Old 12-16-2018, 03:00 PM
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Originally Posted by Wizziwig View Post
What other apps pass the HDR metadata on the Shield? Kodi/SPMC? Amazon? For any non-streaming media, you can use MediaInfo to check if the metadata passed is correct. Hopefully more Android players will add support in the future. I currently use an Oppo but would be nice to find something cheaper for my other room that is also capable of network playback.

Kodi on the Shield will pass maxCLL and maxFALL since the 7.2 update. It looks accurate based on info from the Vertex and MediaInfo.

Lucy 2014 (UHD MKV)







I also checked Jack Ryan on Amazon Prime, it's also passing maxCLL and maxFALL info



nice bonus on the update, prime on the Shield now has ATMOS support

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post #11729 of 13653 Old 12-16-2018, 03:06 PM
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Can someone point me to information as to what's the allowable lens to floor distance to screen distance (vertical throw) for 16 x 9 screens of 110"& 123" diagonal sizes? I don't want to move my PJ mount closer if the vertical throw can't fill the various screens. Thanks for any information provided.

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post #11730 of 13653 Old 12-16-2018, 03:20 PM
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Originally Posted by coxy2416 View Post
My X790 had also run flawlessly since May outside a few odd occasions so the DI can work properly and now it is not. Just need to figure out why

Have to wait to see what the JVC rep has to say.
What would you expect him/her to say... it looked pretty messed up, at least in those videos you showed us.
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