NEW JVC RS3000/NX9 RS2000/N7 RS1000/N5 Native 4K Projectors Anticipation Thread - Page 4 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #91 of 13653 Old 08-17-2018, 04:31 PM
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Originally Posted by Javs View Post
I personally think that relates to a television of sorts. Have you seen their short throw HDR laser displays? very very high nits.
Not sure. From what I can tell that weird 10000 nit 36" TV thing is DLA-HDR36G. You can Google it and get the manual.

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post #92 of 13653 Old 08-17-2018, 04:31 PM
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Originally Posted by Javs View Post
I personally think that relates to a television of sorts. Have you seen their short throw HDR laser displays? very very high nits.
It's under the projector heading. You may be correct, it could be a low end unit.
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post #93 of 13653 Old 08-17-2018, 04:36 PM
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Originally Posted by christoffeldg View Post
The RS4500 doesn't have any inherent contrast advantage over the Sony however, on the contrary, the Sony slightly outperforms it. The reason why it's able to outperform it, is because of it's lumen range and manual iris. Not because of the performance of the actual panel. I doubt a lower budget lamp model would have the same performance as it will simply lack the lumens to make use of the manual iris on the same level.

Tho, the iris will help, I have very high doubts the contrast performance of these new units would be even remotely comparable to the current eshift line.

Also, the current Sony line has pretty decent contrast performance. Get a manual iris in them similar to the JVC and they should perform better, mixed messages concerning the new Sony model in this. I don't really get why it would be a bad thing for JVC if the Sony has it? More competition is good for everyone.

Agree with this statement, hence if they make the lamp shutter undefeatable, an Infinity:1 claim in the dynamic sense would be correct, marketing wise.
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post #94 of 13653 Old 08-17-2018, 04:40 PM
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On second glance, it's probably nothing. I see the UL file was last updated on 2018-04-16 - so it would have been hiding in plain sight for at least that long (assuming this was the last thing added to the file, I can't browse the updates).

Maybe DLA-PZ1000 is just some other product that hasn't seen the light of day, or some very specialized market product not on general sale but they needed to have UL listed for insurance purposes.

The 1000 number is particularly grand, though, does have the sound of a new flagship / top of the range "something".
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post #95 of 13653 Old 08-17-2018, 04:42 PM
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Originally Posted by Highjinx View Post
Agree with this statement, hence if they make the lamp shutter undefeatable, an Infinity:1 claim in the dynamic sense would be correct, marketing wise.
Yes, but it would make me stab myself in the head in their office, so it might not be such a great PR move.
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post #96 of 13653 Old 08-17-2018, 04:46 PM
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Originally Posted by bobof View Post
On second glance, it's probably nothing. I see the UL file was last updated on 2018-04-16 - so it would have been hiding in plain sight for at least that long (assuming this was the last thing added to the file, I can't browse the updates).

Maybe DLA-PZ1000 is just some other product that hasn't seen the light of day, or some very specialized market product not on general sale but they needed to have UL listed for insurance purposes.

The 1000 number is particularly grand, though, does have the sound of a new flagship / top of the range "something".
Agree Z1000 is a major step up from Z1. There is speculation of a higher than the Z1/RS4500 is coming out. With the top two lamp based JVC native 4k units sporting 8k, perhaps the Z1000 is the beast to introduce 8k laser to the consumer sector.

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post #97 of 13653 Old 08-17-2018, 04:51 PM
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JVC s naming convention are generally very confusing tho. They tend to give the same units drastically different names. Like Z1 and rs4500, or rs640 and x9900. A non suspecting user would think these are all completely different devices. :S
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post #98 of 13653 Old 08-17-2018, 04:53 PM
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I think everybody should just come back in two weeks rather than uterly, wildly stabbing in the dark.

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post #99 of 13653 Old 08-17-2018, 04:56 PM
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Originally Posted by Javs View Post
I think everybody should just come back in two weeks rather than uterly, wildly stabbing in the dark.
Don't we do this all the time in here anyway??

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post #100 of 13653 Old 08-17-2018, 04:59 PM
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Don't we do this all the time in here anyway?? 😄
Of course! It's fun!!!
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post #101 of 13653 Old 08-17-2018, 05:32 PM
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Originally Posted by Highjinx View Post
Nice bit of detective work Sherlock!

I would say the DLA-PZ1000 is the model above the Z1/RS4500 that will/may be introduced at IFA. Sporting higher lumens than the Z1/RS4500 as well as incorporating an E-Shift element for 8k. Hopefully a mechanical DI will be incorporated, with new laser modulation programming, but I doubt it. Although we may see this in a gen or two.

With the lamp based units, I think I'm correct in what I have been speculating, the 4k native JVC's will have a lamp shutter on all the models, this way their advertising material can claim an Infinity:1 specification. This will/may be the end of JVC touting a higher than the rest Native Contrast advantage, perhaps down the track when their 4k/UHD chips native contrast increase to braggable heights, they'll revive the spiel.

I hope in the top two models in addition to the lamp shutter, the shutter will be programmed to modulate brightness in conjunction with the DI. A special ultra long life globe for these top two models as they will be running at mostly at full brightness. A manual iris for those who want to disable the DI. If not this time around, keep this in mind for the next gen JVC

I think JVC will be savvy and have the lamp shutter undefeatable, making On/Off contrast measurements difficult. But Cine4Home is sure to get his tech guy on the case!

Excited, can't wait!
I think you are completely wrong on the models, but we will see. I do like the shutter idea. I also do not understand why you keep saying undefeatable shutter, so that native contrast can't be measured? The shutter would only be triggered for full fade to black. So why would it be a problem to send a 0 ire pattern with a single lit pixel in one corner? And you could also use the masking on the projector to mask over the area with the pixel.
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post #102 of 13653 Old 08-17-2018, 05:33 PM
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Originally Posted by christoffeldg View Post
DLA-PZ1000..., that's a very odd designation. Doesn't really seem to fit any of the current naming conventions in the list. I hope that doesn't mean this is a super high end projector of 50k+
With it being 1000, I think it is a model under the 4500, not above it.
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post #103 of 13653 Old 08-17-2018, 05:36 PM
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With it being 1000, I think it is a model under the 4500, not above it.
In some markets it's the Z1 hence Z1000 makes sense.

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post #104 of 13653 Old 08-17-2018, 05:44 PM
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Originally Posted by Javs View Post
I personally think that relates to a television of sorts. Have you seen their short throw HDR laser displays? very very high nits.
It is listed under projectors, not under monitors.
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post #105 of 13653 Old 08-17-2018, 05:53 PM
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Originally Posted by Highjinx View Post
Agree Z1000 is a major step up from Z1. There is speculation of a higher than the Z1/RS4500 is coming out. With the top two lamp based JVC native 4k units sporting 8k, perhaps the Z1000 is the beast to introduce 8k laser to the consumer sector.
Except all of the numbers listed in the document were US numbers and you are comparing to a European number. On top of that, you are dropping the first letter. I think you are reaching.
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post #106 of 13653 Old 08-17-2018, 05:58 PM
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I think you are completely wrong on the models, but we will see. I do like the shutter idea. I also do not understand why you keep saying undefeatable shutter, so that native contrast can't be measured? The shutter would only be triggered for full fade to black. So why would it be a problem to send a 0 ire pattern with a single lit pixel in one corner? And you could also use the masking on the projector to mask over the area with the pixel.
Undefeatable makes sense to me, full black or what ever preset level they choose to use and the shutter cuts all light. I can't see a purpose having an option to disable it would serve for the intended use of the projector?

Of course I'm speculating, but I think a full black out shutter will be a powerful tool in demos in a fade out situation, marketing wise. I can't see what purpose would it serve to be able to easily disable it and display a grey screen in that situation?

If I were JVC I would make it only make it open only when there sufficient video data to be observable. A single lit pixel would not do. If one throws some video data in the edges and then masks that area, the lamp iris would act appropriately as there would be no observable video information being projected.

Don't mind me, I'm just avin' some fun.

We'll know for sure in the coming weeks and months, I need to replace my aging JVC so I'm looking forward to ArrowAV's reviews and C4H as well.

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post #107 of 13653 Old 08-17-2018, 06:05 PM
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Except all of the numbers listed in the document were US numbers and you are comparing to a European number. On top of that, you are dropping the first letter. I think you are reaching.
That document is Japanese, is P for Perfect!??
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post #108 of 13653 Old 08-17-2018, 06:32 PM
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Originally Posted by Highjinx View Post
That document is Japanese, is P for Perfect!??
Yes Japanese document, but as I said, the projector numbers are US numbers and you are trying to link it to a European number. On top of that you are dropping one letter.
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post #109 of 13653 Old 08-17-2018, 06:36 PM
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What's in droppin' a lil' 'p'
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What's in droppin' a lil' 'p'
I am not that old, yet.
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post #111 of 13653 Old 08-17-2018, 06:57 PM
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It is listed under projectors, not under monitors.
So is the DLA-HDR36G...

Which is the kind of unit I was referring to.

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post #112 of 13653 Old 08-17-2018, 07:04 PM
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Originally Posted by Javs View Post
So is the DLA-HDR36G...

Which is the kind of unit I was referring to.

Yep and it is rear projection.
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post #113 of 13653 Old 08-17-2018, 07:07 PM
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Yep and it is rear projection.
... which is why I said short throw laser television of sorts...

It all falls in the same basket.

Rear projection television, display, whatever.

Interestingly that machine seems to have a standard JVC DiLA 1080p projector inside even using the same bulb. But with up to a 10 gain screen. I think even the lens is the same.

I should have a go at making a 60" Projection screen so I can get true 4000 nits HDR out of it with my X9500.
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post #114 of 13653 Old 08-17-2018, 07:16 PM
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Originally Posted by Archibald1 View Post

What was once touted as the thing that is absolutely needed for a great picture, will suddenly be not quite so important for a really good image......, as some have already been arguing.
If JVC releases a lower contrast 4K projector, it does not mean that contrast was less "important for a really good image". It instead means that marketing pressures have forced JVC to go 4K as that's the trend in spite of a better picture. There's no guarantee that whatever they release will be a picture improvement over the previous generation. I think JAVs would argue that his x9500 was a better picture than the few x9900's he bought (and returned). I am certainly not willing to sacrifice my RS640 contrast for something with less contrast and native 4K, and just because JVC might decide to do so doesn't mean I will.
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post #115 of 13653 Old 08-17-2018, 07:21 PM
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Originally Posted by ARROW-AV View Post
I have a feeling that we will find that the native ON/OFF contrast is increased as compared with the JVC RS4500/Z1. JVC's technicians indicated last year that there were/are numerous methods by which they could increase the native ON/OFF contrast performance with respect to the JVC RS4500/Z1. That said, the magnitude of the increase is unknown.

Furthermore, unless JVC has made a breakthrough with respect to sigificantly increasing native ON/OFF contrast performance with native 4K this won't be as high as the RS640.

The 64 million dollar question is: will the peak ON/OFF contrast performance be higher or lower as compared with the SONY 550/675ES?

Either way, I don't think any of these questions will be easily answered at IFA or CEDIA because the projectors marketing information is guaranteed to state next to 'Contrast' performance: "∞:1"

So, as per usual, we will only know what's what in this regard when someone like me takes some proper measurements

.
I think that infinity:1 crap only applies when you can kill the lamp entirely in dimming mode - so probably won't apply to a lamp based unit. So they'll have to have more meaningful numbers. Right now they think their lamp based 640's are 1.6mil:1. Not sure how that compares to actual measurements. But from what I've read, it isn't too far off. On the other hand, I don't believe Sony's 350K:1 on the 675ES is even close to accurate (probably more like 80K:1 dynamic).

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post #116 of 13653 Old 08-17-2018, 07:22 PM
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18Gb/s is so 2017... You want 48Gb/s unless you swap PJs every year. HDMI 2.1 will be mainstream next year. First use for me: RGB 4:4:4 in 4K 10/12bits at 60fps for my HTPC, to make the most of MadVR's goodness with all content. But there will be more and more content over the next couple of year that will benefit from HDMI 2.1.

I'm not investing close to 10K to get an already obsolete tech. Whatever I buy next has to be good for 3-5 years, same as my RS500 was.

My Denon X8500H is upgradable to HDMI 2.1 (that's why I bought it a few months ago and didn't wait until next year), the next nVidia GPUs landing in September will support HDMI 2.1, so there's no way I'm investing in a display that doesn't support it (or offers an upgrade path).

Given how quickly HDMI standards change, they should make the HDMI boards upgradable as soon as they are asking for more than 3K.

Lumagen does it with the Radiance Pro, so it's not impossible. If there is a will, there is a way

By the way, before you say that HDMI 2.2 is around the corner, what makes a difference here is the bandwidth, because that's hardware related. Most of the other features are f/w upgradable.

So I waited until I could get full 18Gb/s bandwidth to upgrade my A/V chain 2/3 years ago (GPU/Source, AVR and display), and I'll do the same this time around.

Given that JVC never adds features in their f/w upgrade and don't always correct the bugs, that's the least you can do to, if not defeat, at least fight planned obsolescence.
I agree. I am not buying into anything else that does not support HDMI 2.1. I bought the Marantz AV8805 processor which they will offer the free 2.1 upgrade (have to send it in for the replacement board).

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post #117 of 13653 Old 08-17-2018, 07:24 PM
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If JVC releases a lower contrast 4K projector, it does not mean that contrast was less "important for a really good image". It instead means that marketing pressures have forced JVC to go 4K as that's the trend in spite of a better picture. There's no guarantee that whatever they release will be a picture improvement over the previous generation. I think JAVs would argue that his x9500 was a better picture than the few x9900's he bought (and returned). I am certainly not willing to sacrifice my RS640 contrast for something with less contrast and native 4K, and just because JVC might decide to do so doesn't mean I will.
And my first projector was the Sony 300ES Native 4k. It measured a tad over 10,000:1 contrast... It had its own issues in the end, but I jumped right off the 'Native 4k' train despite my brain telling me I was nuts at the time. A few days into owning a JVC I didn't regret it a single bit!

Resolution is NOT the sole most important thing. If it was, I would still own a native 4k unit. That is not to say its not important. There are other things which must collide for that perfect harmony.

Min ~40k:1, a good DI or dimming system, native 4k, clean sharp lens edge to edge, full P3, 18Gbps, and an unmolested (no forced noise reduction) image, and I would pay good coin for a unit like that, it ticks all the boxes.

How many of those boxes do the Sony tick right now? Two, maybe three.

JVC X9500 (RS620) | 120" 16:9 | Marantz AV7702 MkII | Emotiva XPA-7 | DIY Modular Towers | DIY TPL-150 Surrounds | DIY Atmos | DIY 18" Subs
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post #118 of 13653 Old 08-17-2018, 07:26 PM
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Originally Posted by markmon1 View Post
I think that infinity:1 crap only applies when you can kill the lamp entirely in dimming mode - so probably won't apply to a lamp based unit. So they'll have to have more meaningful numbers. Right now they think their lamp based 640's are 1.6mil:1. Not sure how that compares to actual measurements. But from what I've read, it isn't too far off. On the other hand, I don't believe Sony's 350K:1 on the 675ES is even close to accurate (probably more like 80K:1 dynamic).
With regards to JVC if it is Lamp based, you can bet your monkey they will quote VERY true and accurate native contrast specs. They hold their heads high with regards to such things.
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post #119 of 13653 Old 08-17-2018, 07:28 PM
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I agree. I am not buying into anything else that does not support HDMI 2.1. I bought the Marantz AV8805 processor which they will offer the free 2.1 upgrade (have to send it in for the replacement board).
Looks like you will be waiting another year or two then.

I see no reason why these will have HDMI 2.1 at this time. Its not even likely to be relevant or usable until the next or thereafter model. (2 years.)

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post #120 of 13653 Old 08-17-2018, 07:29 PM
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If JVC releases a lower contrast 4K projector, it does not mean that contrast was less "important for a really good image". It instead means that marketing pressures have forced JVC to go 4K as that's the trend in spite of a better picture. There's no guarantee that whatever they release will be a picture improvement over the previous generation. I think JAVs would argue that his x9500 was a better picture than the few x9900's he bought (and returned). I am certainly not willing to sacrifice my RS640 contrast for something with less contrast and native 4K, and just because JVC might decide to do so doesn't mean I will.
I lost a lot of faith in JVC after the 2018 models came out. No improvement in e-shift, and it seems that the image was actually softer. The JVC firmware update methods are also archaic unless they are able to do updates over the internet with the latest models?

My current 2017 model JVC X570/RS420 has the lens droop issue ... yes I was able to fix it by setting the vertical lens shift when moving in the up direction vs. down but that is a design flaw and JVC is lucky that fix works or they would have had a recall situation or a lot of pissed off customers.

I am eager to see what they offer and I hope HDMI 2.1 is included but I kind of doubt it since the testing protocols are not even finalized as far as I know.

7.4.6 system: Processors:Marantz 8805 || Xilica XP4080 Amps: Parasound A31 and ATI AT528NC & AT526NC n-core ||Speakers: Procella P8 LCR, Procella P5 for surround & ceiling
Subs: JTR Captivator S2, JTR Captivator S1, 2 Seaton Submersive (dual 15")
Screen: 2.40:1 Seymour XD Acoustically Transparent, 128" diagonal / 118" wide || Projector: JVC X570/RS420
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