NEW JVC RS3000/NX9 RS2000/N7 RS1000/N5 Native 4K Projectors Anticipation Thread - Page 410 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #12271 of 13660 Old 12-24-2018, 06:00 PM
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Originally Posted by markmon1 View Post
People I know buying JVC projectors are upper middle class people with college degrees and decent, but not abnormal jobs.
Yes that's true along with having the time to go watch a movie or two a few times a week. The over achiever's don't have the time to sit doing nothing for the length of a good movie.
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post #12272 of 13660 Old 12-24-2018, 06:53 PM
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Cars, gas mileage and stock market are not on topic to jvc projectiors. A moderator already asked members to stay on topic. Please, the mods would like to spend time with our families vs culling through off topic posts and reviewing report posts (because of off topic posts). Please take the discussion to PM.

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post #12273 of 13660 Old 12-24-2018, 07:04 PM - Thread Starter
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post #12274 of 13660 Old 12-24-2018, 07:21 PM
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Originally Posted by ARROW-AV View Post
For interest here's a chart that I produced that highlights recommended viewing distances with various screen sizes for 8K resolution, based on slightly better than 20/20 vision:



Thanks, so much for that fascinating graph. After many posters here indicating that I wouldn't perceive the benefit of native 4K resolution at farther than 9' (twice height of my 16 x 9 110" screen), I was delighted to find that your graph indicates that my new MLP to screen distance of 13.5' is within the "4K UHD Worth It" portion of the curve. Here's hoping that your graph and curves are spot on!
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post #12275 of 13660 Old 12-24-2018, 07:32 PM
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Originally Posted by docrog View Post
Thanks, so much for that fascinating graph. After many posters here indicating that I wouldn't perceive the benefit of native 4K resolution at farther than 9' (twice height of my 16 x 9 110" screen), I was delighted to find that your graph indicates that my new MLP to screen distance of 13.5' is within the "4K UHD Worth It" portion of the curve. Here's hoping that your graph and curves are spot on!
I'm 55" from a 92" screen--just into "8K UHD Worth It" territory. Can't wait to see what the NX7 brings!
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post #12276 of 13660 Old 12-24-2018, 07:49 PM
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Originally Posted by docrog View Post
Thanks, so much for that fascinating graph. After many posters here indicating that I wouldn't perceive the benefit of native 4K resolution at farther than 9' (twice height of my 16 x 9 110" screen), I was delighted to find that your graph indicates that my new MLP to screen distance of 13.5' is within the "4K UHD Worth It" portion of the curve. Here's hoping that your graph and curves are spot on!
What's missing from the graph is the section for eshift 4K. If that was added in then the discussion is when is eshift 4k vs native 4K noticeable and at your 13.5 feet you wouldn't notice. The chart only shows 1080p vs 4K. eshift 4K is half way in between.

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post #12277 of 13660 Old 12-24-2018, 08:39 PM
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Originally Posted by markmon1 View Post
What's missing from the graph is the section for eshift 4K. If that was added in then the discussion is when is eshift 4k vs native 4K noticeable and at your 13.5 feet you wouldn't notice. The chart only shows 1080p vs 4K. eshift 4K is half way in between.
That's true, but some folks don't want an eshift 4k projector, given that the native 4k projectors are on the horizon. In other words, for some, the choice is between their current 1080p projector and the new native 4k projector, and the relevant question is whether we'll notice a difference with native 4k. So for me, and perhaps for docrog, the chart is illuminating -- while for others who have 4k eshift or are considering a 4k eshift due to the good prices, your point has validity.

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post #12278 of 13660 Old 12-24-2018, 08:45 PM
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Originally Posted by markmon1 View Post
What's missing from the graph is the section for eshift 4K. If that was added in then the discussion is when is eshift 4k vs native 4K noticeable and at your 13.5 feet you wouldn't notice. The chart only shows 1080p vs 4K. eshift 4K is half way in between.
Oh, ye of little faith. You've previously made it quite clear what NOT to expect. I promise to post as unbiased an opinion as possible if (& when) I purchase the RS2000/NX7. I won't be able to A/B 4K UHD source material at that time, since the native 4K panels won't be used in e-shifting, but I will be able to put the 1080p HD BR on the Oppo 103 (e-shifted) and the same movie's UHD BR on the Panny 900. That will be as close as I can get to a reasonable comparison. I'll also make sure to play the same UHD BR movie scenes on my RS500 (e-shifted to faux 4K) prior to making the switch so that I'll have some recent frame of reference.
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post #12279 of 13660 Old 12-24-2018, 09:06 PM
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Originally Posted by docrog View Post
Oh, ye of little faith. You've previously made it quite clear what NOT to expect. I promise to post as unbiased an opinion as possible if (& when) I purchase the RS2000/NX7. I won't be able to A/B 4K UHD source material at that time, since the native 4K panels won't be used in e-shifting, but I will be able to put the 1080p HD BR on the Oppo 103 (e-shifted) and the same movie's UHD BR on the Panny 900. That will be as close as I can get to a reasonable comparison. I'll also make sure to play the same UHD BR movie scenes on my RS500 (e-shifted to faux 4K) prior to making the switch so that I'll have some recent frame of reference.
Here is a test you can do now. Put your RS500 into 1080p mode. Put a pure white image on the screen. Then stand next to the screen close like 1 foot and look for the square grid, which are the pixels. Then step back to your seating position and see if you can still see the pixel grid. If so, I'd say at that distance you'll be able to see the difference. If you can't see the pixels walk forward until you can. The difference in 4K vs 1080p will be that for every square you'll have 4 squares. If you cant even see the squares from seating distance then you'll not be able to see 1/4 of them either.
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post #12280 of 13660 Old 12-24-2018, 10:27 PM
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Happy Christmas everyone. Looking forward to reading an owners thread prior to purchasing in Australia


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post #12281 of 13660 Old 12-24-2018, 10:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bytehoven View Post
Hi Rap...

I use 2.2 for HD, which i believe is what the factory Normal gamma option is. I rarely use A or C, but B can be interesting.

I use 2.4 for SDR 2020, so i dont think im doing anything thaf would challange any DI gamma processing. Againg, sometimes Normal or B look better.

For HDR, I use either chads bright curve or one of my bright x, x, x tone mapping setups. But these days SDR 2020 is far better anyway.
Bytehoven, so for 1080p BDs its always 2.2 gamma for you is it with DI off?
I know of lots who always use 2.4 for BD, is that = to the B?

Im not sure what gamma A, B or C =?

Some say 2.2 is too washed out... Im talking X9900 here...

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post #12282 of 13660 Old 12-24-2018, 10:56 PM
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Just curious what are our options right now for High Gain screens because i been chasing 2.8 HP screen for years with no luck ?
Just wanted to know if anyone had answer for this question ?

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post #12283 of 13660 Old 12-25-2018, 01:05 AM
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Originally Posted by markmon1 View Post
Here is a test you can do now. Put your RS500 into 1080p mode. Put a pure white image on the screen. Then stand next to the screen close like 1 foot and look for the square grid, which are the pixels. Then step back to your seating position and see if you can still see the pixel grid. If so, I'd say at that distance you'll be able to see the difference. If you can't see the pixels walk forward until you can. The difference in 4K vs 1080p will be that for every square you'll have 4 squares. If you cant even see the squares from seating distance then you'll not be able to see 1/4 of them either.
I don't think this is a good test. The fill ratio of a 1080P D-ILA is something like 90%, which means that in this test the level of detail you're looking for (seeing the pixel grid) is actually just looking for 10% of the pixel area, a very small slither of inactive area around each pixel. This is much less than the corresponding size of a 4K pixel. So not being able to see the pixel grid at a certain distance tells you pretty much nothing about whether you'll be able to see 4K pixels.

Resolving pixels doesn't mean seeing the gap between the pixels, which is what you're equating it to.
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post #12284 of 13660 Old 12-25-2018, 01:35 AM
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I don't think this is a good test. The fill ratio of a 1080P D-ILA is something like 90%, which means that in this test the level of detail you're looking for (seeing the pixel grid) is actually just looking for 10% of the pixel area, a very small slither of inactive area around each pixel. This is much less than the corresponding size of a 4K pixel. So not being able to see the pixel grid at a certain distance tells you pretty much nothing about whether you'll be able to see 4K pixels.

Resolving pixels doesn't mean seeing the gap between the pixels, which is what you're equating it to.
I realize from your logic it's not a good test. But to get an idea of the distance to see the difference between 4K eshift and native 4K (which is what we were talking about), it's a pretty good test. It just so happens to coincide to about where I need to be, when wearing my glasses, to see that difference.

Logically, I think it makes sense if you use your value of 10% pixel gap at 1080p. The 4K would require the pixel gap to be 25%. But eshift is about double the resolution of 1080p so that 25% can be cut in half which is then 12%, which is very close to that 10% that you said above.
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post #12285 of 13660 Old 12-25-2018, 02:12 AM
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CES is right around the corner and I would think JVC would release a shipment date before that event. Especially since the recent letter suggests that a fix has been made and production is starting. A shipment date can't be far off, can it?
If full production has indeed started, shipping will not be far behind at all, days...Not weeks. Can not sell what has not shipped.....
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post #12286 of 13660 Old 12-25-2018, 03:42 AM
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Originally Posted by markmon1 View Post
I realize from your logic it's not a good test. But to get an idea of the distance to see the difference between 4K eshift and native 4K (which is what we were talking about), it's a pretty good test. It just so happens to coincide to about where I need to be, when wearing my glasses, to see that difference.

Logically, I think it makes sense if you use your value of 10% pixel gap at 1080p. The 4K would require the pixel gap to be 25%. But eshift is about double the resolution of 1080p so that 25% can be cut in half which is then 12%, which is very close to that 10% that you said above.
No, it doesn't make sense; fill ratios are based on area.

I think I recall the fill ratio for 1080p panels is something like 97% and for 4K panels something like 95%; but even using something extreme like 90% and 80%; I'll work it through.

Imagine a 16:9 screen 1920mm wide.
Each pixel including the inactive region is 1mm x 1mm (1mm2).
90% fill of 1mm2 is 0.9mm2
sqrt (0.9mm2) = 0.95mm sides of the active area.
1mm - 0.95mm = 0.05mm gap between pixels.

Now that same width screen 1920mm would have 0.5mm x 0.5mm pixels (0.25mm2) (I'm overscanning the DCI extra pixels for ease of calc to get a 16:9 image)
Say fill at 4K is only 80% fill:
80% fill of 0.25mm2 is 0.2mm2
sqrt (0.2mm2) = 0.45mm sides of the active area.

(you'll note the pixel gap remains the same at 0.05mm - this is what you'd expect as the tech hasn't managed to improve that I believe).

You can see the size of the pixel gap at 1080p is 9 times smaller than the width of a 4K pixel for the same projected 16:9 image size. Hence the point at which you stop seeing the pixel gap is not relevant to your ability to resolve 4K.

If you spin it round the other way though it does work, if you can see the 1080p pixel gap from where you sit you'll definitely get the benefit of 4K (in fact I think you'd get the benefit of 16K(!) at that distance).
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post #12287 of 13660 Old 12-25-2018, 04:34 AM
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Originally Posted by markmon1 View Post
Here is a test you can do now. Put your RS500 into 1080p mode. Put a pure white image on the screen. Then stand next to the screen close like 1 foot and look for the square grid, which are the pixels. Then step back to your seating position and see if you can still see the pixel grid. If so, I'd say at that distance you'll be able to see the difference. If you can't see the pixels walk forward until you can. The difference in 4K vs 1080p will be that for every square you'll have 4 squares. If you cant even see the squares from seating distance then you'll not be able to see 1/4 of them either.

Better test is letters. Are the jaggies on diagonal of letter "A" reduced?

High fill ratio of JVC pixels makes white feild not as good a test.

Note NHK actually used pictures of real objects in their tests. Did the object look more real?



Edit: I see fill ratio already pointed out. Still believe jaggies good test. See link to Scott Wilinsons post I linked earlier (i think before gas mileage of JVC was important lol)
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post #12288 of 13660 Old 12-25-2018, 04:54 AM
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Originally Posted by Bytehoven View Post
B gamma is its own thing, such that 2.4 seems is more linear to the typical S curve structure, while B is reshaping the curve above and below the midpoint. Id love if anyone could comment regarding the intent of B gamma, as it does seem to be an aesthetic choice.

Not sure about B specifically.

But did see article that some manufacturers tonemapping made similar choices to change the way highlight details were rolled off.

In instead of a simple roll off at top, they varied the mapping along the curve so that highlight details in clouds on a sunny day would be preserved that on a simple roll off at top end would have been lost.

Yes, you could argue that's an aesthetic choice.
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NEW JVC RS3000/NX9 RS2000/N7 RS1000/N5 Native 4K Projectors Anticipation Thread

May the light shine on each and everyone..


Except when your watching a movie in your HT space
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post #12295 of 13660 Old 12-25-2018, 11:40 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RapalloAV View Post
Bytehoven, so for 1080p BDs its always 2.2 gamma for you is it with DI off?
I know of lots who always use 2.4 for BD, is that = to the B?

Im not sure what gamma A, B or C =?

Some say 2.2 is too washed out... Im talking X9900 here...
JVC's description is rather vague. On my RS500 here's what the different gamma curves look like (relative to gamma 2.2). Ignore the slight RGB mistracking.


Gamma A boots the shadow detail (similar to BT.1886); Gamma B boosts the mid-high and darkens the shadows; Gamma C provides a mild boost to the mid-low. Note that none of them resemble Gamma 2.4.
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post #12296 of 13660 Old 12-25-2018, 11:53 AM
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Originally Posted by Dominic Chan View Post
JVC's description is rather vague. On my RS500 here's what the different gamma curves look like (relative to gamma 2.2).


Gamma A boots the shadow detail (similar to BT.1886); Gamma B boosts the mid-high and darkens the shadows; Gamma C provides a mild boost to the mid-low.
Thank you Dominic thats very usful. Last night I experimented a bit with gamma after hearing that Bytehoven thought that gamma B was rather interesting, I watched a whole movie with it and thought is looked absolutly amazing, detail, massive blacks, more detail and real punch to the image! However the only issue was the faces are quite orange/red, how do I tone that down?

I was using Natural and Reference.

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post #12297 of 13660 Old 12-25-2018, 12:47 PM
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Originally Posted by RapalloAV View Post
Thank you Dominic thats very usful. Last night I experimented a bit with gamma after hearing that Bytehoven thought that gamma B was rather interesting, I watched a whole movie with it and thought is looked absolutly amazing, detail, massive blacks, more detail and real punch to the image! However the only issue was the faces are quite orange/red, how do I tone that down?

I was using Natural and Reference.
Are the faces red with Normal gamma as well, or only with Gamma B?

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post #12298 of 13660 Old 12-25-2018, 01:10 PM
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Are the faces red with Normal gamma as well, or only with Gamma B?
With Normal gamma the faces look correct but normal looks a bit pale and washed out. Gamma B looks amazing, I love it and its also much brighter the image! I only have to use low lamp with a 145" StudioTec 130 microperf screen, there is heaps of light.

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post #12299 of 13660 Old 12-25-2018, 01:16 PM
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Originally Posted by RapalloAV View Post
Thank you Dominic thats very usful. Last night I experimented a bit with gamma after hearing that Bytehoven thought that gamma B was rather interesting, I watched a whole movie with it and thought is looked absolutly amazing, detail, massive blacks, more detail and real punch to the image! However the only issue was the faces are quite orange/red, how do I tone that down?

I was using Natural and Reference.

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post #12300 of 13660 Old 12-25-2018, 01:18 PM
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With Normal gamma the faces look correct but normal looks a bit pale and washed out. Gamma B looks amazing, I love it and its also much brighter the image! I only have to use low lamp with a 145" StudioTec 130 microperf screen, there is heaps of light.
You can use Normal gamma, but boost the Picture Tone and reduce the Dark Level to get the picture similar to Gamma B. You can minimize the boost to avoid the red faces. You can also try using Rec709 colour profile, as Reference is slightly oversaturated.

Last edited by Dominic Chan; 12-25-2018 at 02:40 PM.
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