NEW JVC RS3000/NX9 RS2000/N7 RS1000/N5 Native 4K Projectors Anticipation Thread - Page 422 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #12631 of 13660 Old 01-02-2019, 05:01 AM
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We need a video comparison like the below link, except with all popular contenders, Epson v Sony vs JVC.

Surely someone on here works at or runs a HT store with access to all models and has the passion to run a similar unbiased test comparing models on the same content each review etc.

Epson TW9300 vs NX5
Epson LS10500 vs NX5
NX5 v NX7
NX7 v NX9
Sony vs etc etc.


bout half way through you'll see the side by side action shots, I hope someone will produce similar or superior vid comparisons (not just screenshots) on all the above and more models ?

If someone does do this, please share

Last edited by Ads___; 01-02-2019 at 05:06 AM.
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post #12632 of 13660 Old 01-02-2019, 05:22 AM
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is anyone seriously wanting to compare epson 9300 with an n5 ? I think my old Jvc x35 was better in pure PQ terms

not really in the same ball park are they ? ps I've owned a couple of epsons and a couple of JVCs. no ways am going back to epson

thats not to say the epsons are good. great machines for the money. but you get what you pay for

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post #12633 of 13660 Old 01-02-2019, 05:57 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bobof View Post
No, I've seen it in an owner's house on an ALR screen in a grey room, at Jags place on an AT screen (filmex) without any useful light control in the room, and at a pretty dark dedicated room at one of the UK distributors. I found it most impressive on the ALR screen to be honest but my direct comparison there was my own X30 at the time on the same ALR screen surface in my own home which had white walls in that room. Resolution was better on the Epson but as you'd expect the contrast was quite a bit better even on a JVC of yesteryear.

It would be nice to see it directly compared in A/B at some point on the same screen at the same time.
With the earlier 9300 demo against a JVC (X5000 I think), the JVC did have a noticeably better black level - the set up at that time was a bit different - I've a feeling the JVC was higher up and further back on the projector shelving (so filled the screen more, if not entirely), with the Epson literally just behind me on the 'bar' top, so was closer to the screen. I could hear the Epson DI working, though it wasn't intrusive, but the JVCs iris was silent. I do remember thinking one looked a bit sharper/more detailed than the other too - possibly the Epson. But other than that they looked very close as you'd expect when calibrated.

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Out of interest, do you think the DI is any better on the new range than the X7900?

I had another of my "hate DI, turn it off forever (honest)" moments yesterday. Watching House of Cards (nice having a screen that masks down to less common ratios like 2.0) - in a dimly lit scene with some bright highlights the DI pumping was pretty noticeable, with the whole scene luminance fluctuating several times - obviously the scene was just on the cusp of triggering the DI level change.
Well, we didn't see anything glaringly obvious but as you know, that depends on if I'm paying attention or not

I honestly couldn't say if it's the same or better. We did talk about the Oblivion interrogation scene but never got round to trying it unfortunately. I know if you had been there, we'd have made it more of a priority.

Do you remember how the DI was on the 9300? It's probably more obvious and not as fast as the JVCs but it didn't show up during the times I saw it. At the last demo, neither the N5 or 9300 got caught out with the content we used, so nothing really taxing for the DIs on that occasion.

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post #12634 of 13660 Old 01-02-2019, 07:01 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ads___ View Post
We need a video comparison like the below link, except with all popular contenders, Epson v Sony vs JVC.

Surely someone on here works at or runs a HT store with access to all models and has the passion to run a similar unbiased test comparing models on the same content each review etc.

Epson TW9300 vs NX5
Epson LS10500 vs NX5
NX5 v NX7
NX7 v NX9
Sony vs etc etc.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d6QY7jFYS7Y

bout half way through you'll see the side by side action shots, I hope someone will produce similar or superior vid comparisons (not just screenshots) on all the above and more models ?

If someone does do this, please share
Video and photos aren't always able to pick up the differences in the same way your eyes can when you see them like that.

I'm lucky that my dealer has three or four different projectors (all calibrated) that he can run at the same time with the same content and we can do split screen comparisons between any two at any time, and when you do that, you'd be surprised at how similar they are in the most part (Kris Deering has said much the same). Usually it's contrast/black levels that are the biggest differentiator. Other things like image noise can also be a noticeable difference - without that direct comparison you may just think it's film grain. Pictures and calibration data don't usually show that so ideally you have to see them with your own eyes on the same screen at the same time. If they're not calibrated, then you're not really getting a good comparison at all.

If they have a DI that you may consider using, then you may want to play some content that will give the DI a workout and see which one fares the best, but you have to run the same scene over and over a few times as the algorithms are predictive and don't always give the same results.

You mentioned:

Epson TW9300 vs NX5
Epson LS10500 vs NX5

We did the first at the demo event, and three of us then saw an LS10000 directly after the N5.

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Originally Posted by alebonau View Post
is anyone seriously wanting to compare epson 9300 with an n5 ? I think my old Jvc x35 was better in pure PQ terms

not really in the same ball park are they ? ps I've owned a couple of epsons and a couple of JVCs. no ways am going back to epson

thats not to say the epsons are good. great machines for the money. but you get what you pay for
You'd be surprised.

As I mentioned above, we only compared the 9300 to the N5 because one of the people at the demo owned one, and it fared better than expected - in a lot of content, many projectors look pretty much identical once calibrated, as that means they're all tracking greyscale and gamut much the same. Some may measure slightly better but not enough to make a difference visually with content. JVCs have more contrast and can have better blacks and that is one thing that makes it easy to spot one pj from another. Otherwise you are unlikely to be able to tell which is which until a dark scene comes along, but you will also see that the eshift JVCs (and possibly the new 4Ks too) add image noise and have a less solid/clean/stable image compared to others. You probably won't notice that if you don't do a side by side.

Sometimes during the demos, the dealer will swap which projectors are on screen at a given time but not tell us which two projectors they are - and he may switch them from left to right so you can't think that the left one is always going to be the JVC for example, as he may now have that on the right. That makes it very difficult to tell which is which a lot of the time - even when comparing a 4K Sony to eshift models. Black levels make it easy if one has a noticeable advantage, but if the content doesn't allow that you have to look harder or for other elements that will give the game away.

Yes, generally you do get what you pay for, but sometimes the cost difference is greater than the performance difference and that's what some people have to weigh up.
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Originally Posted by elmalloc
Who says Cameron is "right" and why do we care about him so much - lol!

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post #12635 of 13660 Old 01-02-2019, 07:07 AM
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N7's N9's are comming to Norway as we speak today. I hope to look already tonight, at the latest tomorrow.

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post #12636 of 13660 Old 01-02-2019, 07:44 AM
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Would it make more sense to compare the 5040 to the JVC 540? Prices have dropped to a MSRP of $3999 and it will have a much higher contrast compared to the 5040.
I guess the big question is, how long will the 540U /790R continue to be produced.....

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N7's N9's are comming to Norway as we speak today. I hope to look already tonight, at the latest tomorrow.
Excellent, looking to here what you think?
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post #12637 of 13660 Old 01-02-2019, 07:51 AM
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Did JVC ever say why they are dropping the 540, maybe poor sales? Having a cheaper projector in the price range seems like a good idea.

Pioneer SC-95, Axiom M80, VP180, Dual SVS PB-4000 subs, ISCO III, RS540 + Stewart Cima Neve 133
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post #12638 of 13660 Old 01-02-2019, 08:39 AM
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After a bit of internal debate and speaking with Mike I changed my order from the RS2000 to an RS3000. I already have a Paladin DCR here waiting as well. My anticipation level is through the roof!

Theater Equipment list:
JVC RS3000, Panamorph Paladin DCR, 138", Lumagen Pro, Stewart 138" 2:35:1 Screen, Oppo UDP-203, DirecTV Genie, Marantz SR-6011, Emotiva XPA-5 Mains: Paradigm Prestige 85F, Center: Paradigm Prestige 55C, Sides: Paradigm Prestige 15B, Rears: Paradigm Atom V6 Atmos: Paradigm P65-R Sub: Rhythmik FV18, GIK Acoustic Room Treatments
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post #12639 of 13660 Old 01-02-2019, 08:46 AM
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N7's N9's are comming to Norway as we speak today. I hope to look already tonight, at the latest tomorrow.
Are they comming to scandinavia now.....
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post #12640 of 13660 Old 01-02-2019, 08:48 AM
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Are they comming to scandinavia now.....
yes.

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post #12641 of 13660 Old 01-02-2019, 08:54 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gary Lightfoot View Post
With the earlier 9300 demo against a JVC (X5000 I think), the JVC did have a noticeably better black level - the set up at that time was a bit different - I've a feeling the JVC was higher up and further back on the projector shelving (so filled the screen more, if not entirely), with the Epson literally just behind me on the 'bar' top, so was closer to the screen. I could hear the Epson DI working, though it wasn't intrusive, but the JVCs iris was silent. I do remember thinking one looked a bit sharper/more detailed than the other too - possibly the Epson. But other than that they looked very close as you'd expect when calibrated.

Well, we didn't see anything glaringly obvious but as you know, that depends on if I'm paying attention or not

I honestly couldn't say if it's the same or better. We did talk about the Oblivion interrogation scene but never got round to trying it unfortunately. I know if you had been there, we'd have made it more of a priority.

Do you remember how the DI was on the 9300? It's probably more obvious and not as fast as the JVCs but it didn't show up during the times I saw it. At the last demo, neither the N5 or 9300 got caught out with the content we used, so nothing really taxing for the DIs on that occasion.
I never hear the JVC lens iris used for DI and the PJ is above my head pretty much. Unlike all the other <cough> agricultural <cough> noises these things make.

I've never really got a chance to play with the DI on the Epson; at the time I saw them as I didn't have a PJ with DI I was dead against them, and to this date I seem unable to see past my DI prejudice (and I do keep trying). I enjoy marvelling at just how dark the screen gets but the non-linearity of the response and the delays always seem to end up annoying.
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post #12642 of 13660 Old 01-02-2019, 08:57 AM
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Anyone know who makes those vent shrouds/reflectors for the JVC 4500 (the ones that make the vents blow to the sides)? I have seen several people with them and did not know if they were mass produced or if they were DIY and hoping they fit the NX9.
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post #12643 of 13660 Old 01-02-2019, 08:57 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jonathan Schwabe View Post
Are they comming to scandinavia now.....
yes. [IMG class=inlineimg]/forum/images/smilies/biggrin.gif[/IMG]
Wow im from Denmark and have preordered the nx 7.
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post #12644 of 13660 Old 01-02-2019, 09:08 AM
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Originally Posted by microwiz View Post
Did JVC ever say why they are dropping the 540, maybe poor sales? Having a cheaper projector in the price range seems like a good idea.
They probably just want to use up all the parts they have for the old line then stop. Im sure it cannibalizes sales of the higher models to some extent too. The cost to build the 540, which shares no (or very few) parts wit the new models is probably not worth it considering the volumes sold.
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post #12645 of 13660 Old 01-02-2019, 09:10 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ads___ View Post
We need a video comparison like the below link, except with all popular contenders, Epson v Sony vs JVC.

Surely someone on here works at or runs a HT store with access to all models and has the passion to run a similar unbiased test comparing models on the same content each review etc.

Epson TW9300 vs NX5
Epson LS10500 vs NX5
NX5 v NX7
NX7 v NX9
Sony vs etc etc.


bout half way through you'll see the side by side action shots, I hope someone will produce similar or superior vid comparisons (not just screenshots) on all the above and more models ?

If someone does do this, please share

Some of these already exist (though not with the new models yet)...



To give people an example of how/why/when on/off contrast helps a picture, you should check this out:




This is the Sony 4k 385 (last year's) versus JVC X790 (I think RS540). Watch the video in 4K, full screen it and you'll get a good idea why people prefer JVC... I believe the side by side starts at 9:08.



In this case the Sony has advantages in terms of sharpness, but the JVC's black level, when viewed side by side with the 385, show why so many on this forum prefer JVC .. and given how good this compares, the logical thought is that when JVC catches up in resolution to a true 4K, it will be awesome... of course, that's just me speculating
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post #12646 of 13660 Old 01-02-2019, 09:48 AM
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I'd love to see this as well. I've reviewed the majority of the JVC projectors that have come through Home Theater and now Sound and Vision magazine and my discount has always been about the same (dealer price or near dealer demo). This is exactly the same price I get on Sony, Epson and just about every other manufacturer of projectors over the years. I think the only one that ever offered me a REALLY sweet deal was Marantz on the VP11S1 WAY back in the day. They sold me a promotional unit (used for photos and such in their ads) that had zero hours but listed as show stock due to being used at a show and for pictures. This surprisingly allowed for a bigger discount than normal.
I miss that magazine...
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post #12647 of 13660 Old 01-02-2019, 09:53 AM
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I debated on where to post this bust since my RS2000 isn't in my hands yet I decided this was probably the place. 7 years ago when I got my first projector I threw together a box but it was very basic and honestly not a good design. With news my mythical yeti might be showing up sooner than later I decided it time to get to work on designing a new hush box and I want to get opinions on the design.

I have a 4" vent in my ceiling above the projector location that pulls air into the adjacent utility room using two 8" duct fans in series. It moves good air. So my thought with this design was to separate the front of the box from the rear and pull the hot air from the front chamber. As a precaution and also as a source of air to pull from I wanted to add to side vents to the front chamber in case the project fan was accidentally not turned on the hot air should just vent to the room. The rear chamber pulls cool fresh air in through the back bottom vent. I think I have good spacing and size of my ventilation but interested in hearing what you guys think. The cream color is where I will use a foam to seal against the projector. All exterior surfaces and vent openings will be in velvet.

My only real concern is the proximity of the front of the projector to the front of the box but it appears the exhaust vents are shaped to direct air to the sides. Can anyone help confirm that for me?

I have attached the sketchup file as well as that might be easier to look at if anyone was interested.

Overall
For high lamp, high altitude mode your exhaust fan needs to handle 96CFM.
For just high lamp, your exhaust fan needs to handle 80CFM.

Added
These are minimum numbers. Since the area under the projector will be open and you do not want hot air going back under the projector and getting to the inlet, I would go higher than the numbers posted.

Last edited by Mike Garrett; 01-02-2019 at 10:00 AM.
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post #12648 of 13660 Old 01-02-2019, 09:58 AM
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Originally Posted by Killroy View Post
Anyone know who makes those vent shrouds/reflectors for the JVC 4500 (the ones that make the vents blow to the sides)? I have seen several people with them and did not know if they were mass produced or if they were DIY and hoping they fit the NX9.
They come with the 4500 from JVC.
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post #12649 of 13660 Old 01-02-2019, 10:03 AM
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I guess you're making the (Perhaps dangerous) assumption that there isn't any heat radiated out to the rear of the front section; that it all manages to leave via the exhausts.
Would you to that end not be better off with the split in the box being towards the back end of the box? Otherwise any radiated heat from the chassis is either added to the inlet air temperature or hangs around cooking stuff slowly.
The reason the front chamber is that far forward is there are side intakes on the bottom of the projectors.(I believe those are intakes on the bottom sides) If I moved the front chamber back those bottom side intakes would be drawing in hot air from the front exhaust and not cool air from the rear chamber. The area around the lens is also sealed off from the exhaust air path so I am not pulling any dust towards or past the lens.
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post #12650 of 13660 Old 01-02-2019, 10:10 AM
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Originally Posted by BlackHawk2383 View Post
The reason the front chamber is that far forward is there are side intakes on the bottom of the projectors.(I believe those are intakes on the bottom sides) If I moved the front chamber back those bottom side intakes would be drawing in hot air from the front exhaust and not cool air from the rear chamber. The area around the lens is also sealed off from the exhaust air path so I am not pulling any dust towards or past the lens.
Ok, that is news to me. I thought all the intake was at the rear (1x filtered inlet for the optics, 2x unfiltered either side). Do you have some more details on those?
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post #12651 of 13660 Old 01-02-2019, 10:10 AM
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They come with the 4500 from JVC.
Sitting here hoping JVC adds that feature to the NX9 or they have it as an optional item. If not, I need to 3D print a couple of them.
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post #12652 of 13660 Old 01-02-2019, 10:21 AM
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.. and given how good this compares, the logical thought is that when JVC catches up in resolution to a true 4K, it will be awesome... of course, that's just me speculating
Yes, many of us look forward to comparisons between 790/540 - 990/640 and the nx5, nx7 and nx9. Such as ...

Observable resolution from a normal viewing distance...

Best case tone mapping performance ... including the new built in tone mapping vs the panny 820 and lumagen radiance pro.

Ansi and on off contrast, with and without DI.

I think most assume the new jvc product will also outperform the sony offering. But how an eshift 5 vs new 4k will shake out is of great interest.

At some point, when eshift 5 inventory disappears, such a comparison may not matter to a new buyer.

However, will there be the motivation for current eshift 3, 4 & 5 owners to upgrade? On my short list of reasons to upgrade from my x990, a native 4k panel, while on the list, is not at the top.

The last gen jvc projectors offer truly impressive 1080hd performance with an eshift and HDR twist.

I look forward to the reviews, reports and comparisons to begin flowwing in. I plan see the nx7 and nx9 up close. These new product have pretty big shoes to fill.
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post #12653 of 13660 Old 01-02-2019, 10:26 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Garrett View Post
For high lamp, high altitude mode your exhaust fan needs to handle 96CFM.
For just high lamp, your exhaust fan needs to handle 80CFM.

Added
These are minimum numbers. Since the area under the projector will be open and you do not want hot air going back under the projector and getting to the inlet, I would go higher than the numbers posted.
Thanks Mike. The area under the projector is not open. There will be a foam or rubber seal just before the front legs that seals off all exhaust air. My hope is all exhaust air will either be vented out of the sides of the box worst case (accidental fan off) or when operating as planned should be drawn up to the top vent pipe and exhausted out to my utility room. I'm considering adding a smart outlet that will automatically turn on the exhaust vent fans when it detects power draw from the projector to ensure exhaust fans are always on when they should be.

The duct fans I'm using are rated 210 CFM each in free air and up to 500 CFM assisted. I have two of them in series but they are being restricted down to a 4" line through the ceiling cavity so I know that impacts things. I have not measured what the CFM of airflow is that is being pulled from my current box but I will say you can clearly see dust being pulled past the lens rapidly. Remember I said poor design of first box...the only opening is around the lens opening for my Epson 8350. I've cooked that puppy a few times when the fans haven't been turned on as the hush box just becomes a hot box. That cannot be an option with my new projector. I will see if about picking up a meter to measure what my airflow is to make sure I can even pull enough air to make this viable.

Thanks
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post #12654 of 13660 Old 01-02-2019, 10:28 AM
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re:Epson 5040 vs JVC N series

I have said this before here, but given the recent posts about Epson here, I wanted to chime in again. I currently own a 5040 and I have an RS2000 on order. I would never recommend the 5040 over any of the new JVC line, simply because of two things: The Epson only has a 10gbps HDMI, meaning you can't get greater than 10/12 bit color at 30hz. And there is no tone mapping on the Epson. Other than that, I personally have no major issues with the Epson. However, if you are considering the Epson, I would wait for the 5050 as it addresses the two major issues with the 5040, adding tone mapping and 18gbps.

The Epson is not a bad projector. The new JVC's are superior in every way, but also cost twice as much or more and each improvement (other than the two aforementioned issues) is somewhat incremental and for many will be very minor improvements. So it is like anything else that costs twice as much, just a question of whether you can afford the extra cost and whether it is worth it to you.

As I have said a few times in this thread, black levels and contrast are NOT the most important thing to some people. I am perfectly content with my black levels. I also don't notice the screen door or have any issues with e-shift noise. The Epson DI does pump more than I like and makes some noise, so I shut it off, and since black levels aren't that important to me, no big deal. I am still happy. With custom curves (manual tone mapping) I can get the HDR to really pop, and on a smaller screen (110-130") you can use custom curves to make the P3 filter be plenty bright. These are all highly subjective issues though, and no matter how many people say that they are deal breakers, most normal viewers wouldn't be able to point out flaws in my Epson. Of course, AVS'ers are not normal people, lol.

Bottom line, if you can afford the JVC easily, do it, the new projectors are superior in every way to Epson, even the new 5050 that isn't out yet (yes, I am confident in that conclusion despite not seeing either projector personally). If you would have to sacrifice a lot to afford the JVC, then stick to the Epson, you are still going to be happy with your purchase. Anything in between is subjective and you should compare them side by side with your own eyes before deciding.
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post #12655 of 13660 Old 01-02-2019, 10:33 AM
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Originally Posted by bobof View Post
Ok, that is news to me. I thought all the intake was at the rear (1x filtered inlet for the optics, 2x unfiltered either side). Do you have some more details on those?
I guess I may be making a poor assumption here then. I thought that's that these bottom vents were. I was trying keep lots of room around these and back intake vents while at the same time trying to suck the warm air right out away from the front exhaust as closely as possible.

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post #12656 of 13660 Old 01-02-2019, 10:35 AM
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So I have an RS2000 on order...

The good news: Today, I got an email from my dealer saying my card was charged!


The not as good news: It was for the Paladin DCR lens, not for the projector...

Sorry, I just wanted to wake everyone up this morning...

Happy New Year!
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post #12657 of 13660 Old 01-02-2019, 10:36 AM
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Blackhawk - Intake is all in the rear, but expanded compared to the eshift models. The bottom part there you circled is for better grip when holding/mounting the projector.
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post #12658 of 13660 Old 01-02-2019, 10:41 AM
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Originally Posted by stumlad View Post
To give people an example of how/why/when on/off contrast helps a picture, you should check this out:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p7oNMqGeJQI


This is the Sony 4k 385 (last year's) versus JVC X790 (I think RS540). Watch the video in 4K, full screen it and you'll get a good idea why people prefer JVC... I believe the side by side starts at 9:08.
Yes this is the video that sold me on JVC. TVSpros do good comparisons. I would definitely like to see more high quality comparison videos like this.
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post #12659 of 13660 Old 01-02-2019, 10:43 AM
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As an owner of an AT screen (Screen Research Clearpix 4K) which undoubtedly robs a little sharpness, I'm more interested in what might be seen as fringe benefits that a new model family offers:
1) 4K without eShift whine
2) Potential for improved mechanicals on lamp iris and cinema filter; generally less weirdness
3) Better filtering for optics
4) New 4K chips >perhaps< have slightly different prevalence / manifestation of bright corners
5) Potential for improved motion without introduction of excessive SOE
The nature of the above (all stuff that will never make it to a spec sheet) means I can't wait to start seeing these in owner's hands. You lucky little guinea pigs you...
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post #12660 of 13660 Old 01-02-2019, 10:47 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BlackHawk2383 View Post
I guess I may be making a poor assumption here then. I thought that's that these bottom vents were. I was trying keep lots of room around these and back intake vents while at the same time trying to suck the warm air right out away from the front exhaust as closely as possible.

No idea, I hadn't seen those. Hopefully someone who gets a unit and has the OK (or the chutzpa) to take it apart will reveal all these units gory details for us...
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