NEW JVC RS3000/NX9 RS2000/N7 RS1000/N5 Native 4K Projectors Anticipation Thread - Page 434 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #12991 of 13660 Old 01-05-2019, 06:27 AM
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Originally Posted by markmon1 View Post
I'll have an RS4500 here either next Friday or Saturday. I'm not sure how long I get it for, but at that time I'll know if I'm keeping my NX9 preorder or going for the RS4500. I made a fuss with my local dealer and the JVC rep is sending us an RS4500 that we can open and demo in my house with no commitment. If I love it I'm not sure if I buy that one or order another. I guess it'll depend on the hours used.
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post #12992 of 13660 Old 01-05-2019, 06:33 AM
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Originally Posted by ARROW-AV View Post
Exactly! That JVC photo has VERY obviously been photoshopped to anyone who knows what to look for... Hell even those who don't because the RGB values for the screen are totally different! The image has been blurred, the contrast reduced, and the gamma shifted. It's bloody obvious!

Please be carefull with your accusations.

For these results we have like 3 Dozen witnesses (it was a public event) and even Mori can confirm this. Also this happens, when pictures get taken (here from a FB discussion) without notifying me and without the important context: The NX9 is indeed razor sharp. These macro pictures are not about optical sharpness of the NX9, these pictures just show the difference in White / Black contrast and their influence on sharpness perception.

Also I added several times, that the differences can not(!) be seen in normal viewing distances with movie content.

And I added, that with bright font on black background, the NX9 is as sharp as the VW870.

It is these incompetent and agressive discussions, mainly coming from people with special interest in pushing JVC, why I am not coming here anymore. Just sad...

Regards,
Ekki

Last edited by Cine4Home; 01-05-2019 at 06:43 AM.
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post #12993 of 13660 Old 01-05-2019, 06:48 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by ScottieBoysName View Post
Reading a bit here and I need some folks to help my brain out.

People are finding ANSI contrast worse on the RS3000 compared to previous models? What about the RS2000?

It seems one explanation for the poorer ANSI of the NX9 could be due to it using eshift, where as the the RS2000/NX7 might not have this issue due to eshift not being present?
I'm going to ask folks not to panic regarding the ANSI just yet

Firstly, ANSI is actually essentially IRRELEVANT when it comes to actual video content as 99.999% of this falls inbetween ANSI (= 50% ADL) and ON/OFF (= 0% ADL) however the vast majority of content falls within 0 - 20% ADL with only a distinct minority small fraction of content falling within 21% - 50% ADL.

So what is really needed in properly evaluating what is the contrast performance for a projector with respect to actual video content is the FULL RANGE of contrast performance from ON/OFF through 1% - 20% ADL through to ANSI and accurately measuring as such with respect to all of NATIVE and DYNAMIC contrast functionality; wherein this is precisely what I will be doing.

In fact, I will be providing this information not only with respect to all of the JVC projectors but also all of the SONYs as well, as well as fully comprehensive scientific analysis and measurements in the other areas and aspects that most influence good video image quality and performance as well

Regarding eShift specifically, I will also need to assess what are the positive and negative (if any) effects of the eShift with the RS3000/NX9; wherein I will be taking measurements and evaluating everything both with and without the eShift turned on. The fact of the matter is that most people are not going to have screen sizes and viewing distances that will be able to benefit from native 8K image resolution let alone eShift 8K image resolution, so if it is adding ANYTHING negative whatsoever into the mix then I will probably be choosing myself and recommending that others simply turn it off and operate it as native 4K. HOWEVER I need to proper and comprehensively evaluate this before drawing any definitive conclusions, so watch this space

I am informed by JVC that I should be receiving delivery of my units within the next 1 - 2 weeks and should shortly be provided with a more definitive ETA, so there's not long to wait

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post #12994 of 13660 Old 01-05-2019, 07:02 AM
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Originally Posted by mirodk View Post
Don’t get me wrong, these pictures look marvelous, but I get worried when some say otherwise - of course Ekki’s sample could be defective

The Sample was not defective and it was indeed very sharp. The discussed results come when you project a bright desktop with black font. The NX9 could simply not reach the pixel contrast of the VW870 in that constellation, even then the NX9 still was sharp for its own if you had not the direct comparison.

This all has hardly any impact on movie projection anyway.

Regards,
Ekki
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post #12995 of 13660 Old 01-05-2019, 07:03 AM
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Originally Posted by ARROW-AV View Post
I'm going to ask folks not to panic regarding the ANSI just yet



Firstly, ANSI is actually essentially IRRELEVANT when it comes to actual video content as 99.999% of this falls inbetween ANSI (= 50% ADL) and ON/OFF (= 0% ADL) however the vast majority of content falls within 0 - 20% ADL with only a distinct minority small fraction of content falling within 21% - 50% ADL.



So what is really needed in properly evaluating what is the contrast performance for a projector with respect to actual video content is the FULL RANGE of contrast performance from ON/OFF through 1% - 20% ADL through to ANSI and accurately measuring as such with respect to all of NATIVE and DYNAMIC contrast functionality; wherein this is precisely what I will be doing.



In fact, I will be providing this information not only with respect to all of the JVC projectors but also all of the SONYs as well, as well as fully comprehensive scientific analysis and measurements in the other areas and aspects that most influence good video image quality and performance as well



Regarding eShift specifically, I will also need to assess what are the positive and negative (if any) effects of the eShift with the RS3000/NX9; wherein I will be taking measurements and evaluating everything both with and without the eShift turned on. The fact of the matter is that most people are not going to have screen sizes and viewing distances that will be able to benefit from native 8K image resolution let alone eShift 8K image resolution, so if it is adding ANYTHING negative whatsoever into the mix then I will probably be choosing myself and recommending that others simply turn it off and operate it as native 4K. HOWEVER I need to proper and comprehensively evaluate this before drawing any definitive conclusions, so watch this space



I am informed by JVC that I should be receiving delivery of my units within the next 1 - 2 weeks and should shortly be provided with a more definitive ETA, so there's not long to wait





Got it. Thanks!
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post #12996 of 13660 Old 01-05-2019, 07:09 AM
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Originally Posted by Cine4Home View Post
The Sample was not defective and it was indeed very sharp. The discussed results come when you project a bright desktop with black font. The NX9 could simply not reach the pixel contrast of the VW870 in that constellation.

This all has hardly any impact on movie projection anyway.

Regards,
Ekki
Thanks for clearing, over the last pages here I have asked that more people do some test on black fonts on white background - to clearify if it just was your sample or it is typically for the NX9.

It was obviously to much for some

Last edited by mirodk; 01-05-2019 at 07:17 AM.
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post #12997 of 13660 Old 01-05-2019, 07:10 AM
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Originally Posted by mirodk View Post
This picture is from an N5 right? We are talking about the NX9

....and there is not a lot of white in this picture.

And even there you can see, that the black letters show not a high contrast.
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post #12998 of 13660 Old 01-05-2019, 07:19 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Cine4Home View Post
Please be carefull with your accusations.

For these results we have like 3 Dozen witnesses (it was a public event) and even Mori can confirm this. Also this happens, when pictures get taken (here from a FB discussion) without notifying me and without the important context: The NX9 is indeed razor sharp. These macro pictures are not about optical sharpness of the NX9, these pictures just show the difference in White / Black contrast and their influence on sharpness perception.

Also I added several times, that the differences can not(!) be seen in normal viewing distances with movie content.

And I added, that with bright font on black background, the NX9 is as sharp as the VW870.

It is these incompetent and agressive discussions, mainly coming from people with special interest in pushing JVC, why I am not coming here anymore. Just sad...

Regards,
Ekki
Firstly, thank you Ekki for confirming that "The NX9 is indeed razor sharp"

Whilst we have you...

For the record, here's the offending photo:

This was posted onto your facebook page by you and even has your company's website stamped on it.

Firstly, why is the JVC image is blurred, including the physical screen and screen perforations, whereas in the SONY image the the physical screen and screen perforations are razor sharp? Because "these results" that have been and are being inferred from this are in fact (understandably) that the SONY is considerably sharper than the JVC.

So thank you for confirming that is not the case and that your photos are by no means representative of what is the actual comparative performances of these projectors in this regard.

Moving on...

Please can you kindly confirm how exactly are you measuring 80,000:1 ON/OFF contrast with respect to an accurately calibrated SONY 885/760ES? And also similarly 50,000:1 ON/OFF Contrast performance with the SONY 995/870ES? Because no other video professional that I know of is able to replicate these measurements? Furthermore, there are a number of individuals, including Mori (since you mention him) who have cited these measurements of yours on more than one occasion on this forum.

It is extremely easy for me to visit Germany, and I am offering an award of £1,000 cash to anyone who is able to demonstrate to me that an accurately calibrated SONY 885/760ES is capable of measuring as such and the same applies with respect to the SONY 995/870ES; regarding which you are also claiming that you have measured a dynamic contrast multiplier of x2.5, something which also nobody else seems to be able to replicate.

I would therefore like to fly to Germany (at my expense) and for you to demonstrate to me that an accurately calibrated SONY 885/760ES measures 80,000:1 ON/OFF contrast and an accurately calibrated SONY 885/760ES measures 50,000:1 ON/OFF contrast, with a dynamic contrast multiplier of x2.5

In fact, I am going to offer to pay you £5,000 cash as well as post a public apology to you on this forum if you are able to do so

So, what dates are you free? Let's book a date in the diary. Since you are a busy chap I am very happy to fit in with whenever suits you

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post #12999 of 13660 Old 01-05-2019, 07:26 AM
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Originally Posted by grendelrt View Post
First reports were saying over 100% with filter and 90% without. Doesn't seem to be true. Hope we get feedback on a production model really soon.

The DCI filter filters red and green at the same time.
This is dfferent from the X-series.

Regards,
Ekki
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post #13000 of 13660 Old 01-05-2019, 07:33 AM
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I swore i would not follow this thread. I just keep telling myself i am very happy with my Rs520.
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post #13001 of 13660 Old 01-05-2019, 07:44 AM
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Lol and the only picture you had of the JVC was a completely out of focus one?

Okay chief.. Deliberate or not with your controversial history of getting measurements that nobody else seem to be able to replicate with Sony just addds more fuel to the fire.

This is why I wait for reviews from people like Kris Deering who have demonstrated they do not have a bias when it comes to reviews.
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post #13002 of 13660 Old 01-05-2019, 07:57 AM
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Originally Posted by ack_bk View Post
Lol and the only picture you had of the JVC was a completely out of focus one?

Okay chief.. Deliberate or not with your controversial history of getting measurements that nobody else seem to be able to replicate with Sony just addds more fuel to the fire.

This is why I wait for reviews from people like Kris Deering who have demonstrated they do not have a bias when it comes to reviews.
I thought this was a JVC tread

You clearly haven’t understand what the pictures are showing, they are not the best but they still show that the NX9 loses contrast on black objects one all white background - funny that no one here is interested in seeing more of this phenomenon
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post #13003 of 13660 Old 01-05-2019, 07:58 AM
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Originally Posted by ARROW-AV View Post
Thanks for this. I think I will add this to my list of tests that I use for testing and evaluating dynamic contrast functionality with projectors. Very useful, thanks!

My pleasure Arrow...

This version might be more useful as it moves from 0% to 5% to 6% thru 15%.

I would note the x990 gamma crush stops at 7%, and the the degree of crush moderates as it move from 0% to 7%.

http://blanca.com/JVC/DI_Test_IRE_0_15.mp4
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post #13004 of 13660 Old 01-05-2019, 07:58 AM
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Yaeh sure, "completely out of focus". If you say so.
Well guys, if that is the level of discussion you are aiming for, just go on.

But if you are interested in a objetive and fair discussion of facts, let me know.

Regards,
Ekki
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post #13005 of 13660 Old 01-05-2019, 08:01 AM
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Originally Posted by mirodk View Post
I thought this was a JVC tread

You clearly haven’t understand what the pictures are showing, they are not the best but they still show that the NX9 loses contrast on black objects one all white background - funny that no one here is interested in seeing more of this phenomenon

Yeah it is indeed funny and tells alot.
Also how any tiny little critic of the beloved JVCs gets slammed with hate and defamation, instead of trying to get further results together(!) to find the whole picture behind it.

Is this thread for objective discussions or just a JVC sales promotion thread?

If the first, let me know. ;-)
Regards,
Ekki

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post #13006 of 13660 Old 01-05-2019, 08:05 AM
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This JVC vs Sony thing is Sooooooooooooo Tiresome!!! It's like the two sides of the political landscape in the US. Everyone thinks the other has some agenda and know what is right for the other person.

Guess what, I WON'T be doing a single pixel test, OR a White text on black or black text on white or blah blah blah! I will calibrate it to the best the project can do and sit back and enjoy the movies I watch. I enjoyed my Sony's before, my Epson, my Optima and now I am sure I will enjoy my JVC.

I bet 90% of the Sony and JVC owners don't even have their projectors calibrated, let alone correctly and for sure Epson and Optima. But I bet they love it.

Now can we get back to helping people get the most out of their projector that they have purchased. Maybe start a thread "My projector is better than yours" and take it over there.

Sorry MHO....

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post #13007 of 13660 Old 01-05-2019, 08:07 AM
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Originally Posted by mirodk View Post
I thought this was a JVC tread

You clearly haven’t understand what the pictures are showing, they are not the best but they still show that the NX9 loses contrast on black objects one all white background - funny that no one here is interested in seeing more of this phenomenon
For the record I 100% understand exactly the point being made. And I don't doubt for a second that Sony has an advantage with some very specific instances of displaying text/images. As has been noted the JVC will have advantages as well (are those pictures posted on Cine4home where the JVC shines?). But you and I both know the history here and regardless of what point is being made posting out of focus pictures of one projector vs another that is completely in focus just adds fuel to fire and you know for years to come people will be using those pictures to compare the two without I having the full context.
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post #13008 of 13660 Old 01-05-2019, 08:18 AM
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Originally Posted by Cine4Home View Post
But if you are interested in a objetive and fair discussion of facts, let me know.

Regards,
Ekki
Hi, Ekki. I hope you continue your involvement on AVS. And I don't know when you'll post your review of the NX9 on your site yet, but I'd like to read it. I do understand there is a difference between what we want to believe and what is in fact true and until a sufficient pool is tested, I will keep an open mind. I'm not threatened and welcome all discussions.

I, for one, like to consider all the arguments for and against, as that truly helps me know how and when to spend my money as a consumer to help investigate what it is I'm buying or not.
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post #13009 of 13660 Old 01-05-2019, 08:25 AM
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I’m really interested in the NX9 and also the Sony VW870, and for me it’s really simple, I will very much know all the pros and cons of these projectors.

Ekki has brought this up, and the only thing I’m asking here is someone will investigate this some more.
I’m well aware that there is many issues with projectors and I own the VW1000 and VW520, and they have issues, some really bad ones.

Now I’m interested in the NX9 and I definitely will be sure that my purchase is right.

In my country we can not see NX9 or the VW870 - we have to buy them unseen - so please be objective.
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post #13010 of 13660 Old 01-05-2019, 08:29 AM
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Originally Posted by ARROW-AV View Post
Firstly, thank you Ekki for confirming that "The NX9 is indeed razor sharp"

Whilst we have you...

For the record, here's the offending photo:





Checked this Sony 870 VS a Sample of the N5 the sharpness were on text almost identical.
I will get the NX9 very soon for test. Will post measurements. And quality
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post #13011 of 13660 Old 01-05-2019, 08:31 AM
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Originally Posted by ack_bk View Post
For the record I 100% understand exactly the point being made. And I don't doubt for a second that Sony has an advantage with some very specific instances of displaying text/images. As has been noted the JVC will have advantages as well (are those pictures posted on Cine4home where the JVC shines?). But you and I both know the history here and regardless of what point is being made posting out of focus pictures of one projector vs another that is completely in focus just adds fuel to fire and you know for years to come people will be using those pictures to compare the two without I having the full context.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mirodk View Post
I’m really interested in the NX9 and also the Sony VW870, and for me it’s really simple, I will very much know all the pros and cons of these projectors.

Ekki has brought this up, and the only thing I’m asking here is someone will investigate this some more.
I’m well aware that there is many issues with projectors and I own the VW1000 and VW520, and they have issues, some really bad ones.

Now I’m interested in the NX9 and I definitely will be sure that my purchase is right.

In my country we can not see NX9 or the VW870 - we have to buy them unseen - so please be objective.
There is no such thing as a perfect projector. Period. Like always when it comes to these decisions there will be pros and cons. Sony will have pros. JVC will have pros. You have to detmine what matters most to you and at what price point. My recommendation is to wait for the trusted review and comparisons which should be coming out soon. Find a reviewer or two that don't have clear biases if you can't observe in person or have the ability to buy both and keep the winner.
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post #13012 of 13660 Old 01-05-2019, 08:39 AM
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Originally Posted by ack_bk View Post
There is no such thing as a perfect projector. Period. Like always when it comes to these decisions there will be pros and cons. Sony will have pros. JVC will have pros. You have to detmine what matters most to you and at what price point. My recommendation is to wait for the trusted review and comparisons which should be coming out soon. Find a reviewer or two that don't have clear biases if you can't observe in person or have the ability to buy both and keep the winner.
Yes you are very right here - and there for I don’t understand when some here question the negatives shall we not investigate in this also
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post #13013 of 13660 Old 01-05-2019, 08:40 AM
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Yaeh sure, "completely out of focus". If you say so.

Well guys, if that is the level of discussion you are aiming for, just go on.



But if you are interested in a objetive and fair discussion of facts, let me know.



Regards,

Ekki
Well even if ignoring the strange fact that left photos is in focus and right is out of focus, it is clearly seen that picture settings differ from each other it's tone and colour temperature are for sure different. It is frankly silly to consider this image as a 'fact' that NX9 model has less contrast than N5.
P.s. I am the owner to 760es/885es so no bias towards JVC

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post #13014 of 13660 Old 01-05-2019, 08:48 AM
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Originally Posted by Aztar35 View Post
Hi, Ekki. I hope you continue your involvement on AVS. And I don't know when you'll post your review of the NX9 on your site yet, but I'd like to read it. I do understand there is a difference between what we want to believe and what is in fact true and until a sufficient pool is tested, I will keep an open mind. I'm not threatened and welcome all discussions.

To be honest, I am not so sure about that.
I was here for over 12 years and all the time it has been a respectful talk with the goal of objective discussions with other home theatre fans. It was fun an interesting here, I enjoyed it. And I think I could share quite interesting information here during all these years. ;-)

But for the last two years anybody can see, how aggressively some people act when other qualified people do not confirm their stories. Defamation, trolling and so on and so on.

So why should I participate? What is my benefit, if all I get is hate? If people do not want to discuss objective facts, what sense does it make? I do not want to disturb your bubble, you built up here...

Regards.
Ekki
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post #13015 of 13660 Old 01-05-2019, 08:49 AM
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Yes you are very right here - and there for I don’t understand when some here question the negatives shall we not investigate in this also
I think you are putting the cart before the horse. The negatives will be discussed once these projectors end up in more hands. The JVC's are completely new models as well and I expect there to be some issues but within a year or so after firmware update(s) I think hit will get a much better idea. Hopefully you can wait a bit and are not in a situation where you have to buy right now. I hope to upgrade in 18-24 months myself.

I also own a JVC 520 and did my research. I knew the negatives going in and there has been no surprises. Price wise the JVC was the best option for me when I bought due to closeout pricing.

I have nothing against Sony except their markups in the US on pricing and omitting some key features on the lower end line that JVC does not. I have had good experiences with Sony products over the years and would ever hesitate to buy one of they offer the best product at my price point.
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post #13016 of 13660 Old 01-05-2019, 08:58 AM
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Originally Posted by ack_bk View Post
I think you are putting the cart before the horse. The negatives will be discussed once these projectors end up in more hands. The JVC's are completely new models as well and I expect there to be some issues but within a year or so after firmware update(s) I think hit will get a much better idea. Hopefully you can wait a bit and are not in a situation where you have to buy right now. I hope to upgrade in 18-24 months myself.

I also own a JVC 520 and did my research. I knew the negatives going in and there has been no surprises. Price wise the JVC was the best option for me when I bought due to closeout pricing.

I have nothing against Sony except their markups in the US on pricing and omitting some key features on the lower end line that JVC does not. I have had good experiences with Sony products over the years and would ever hesitate to buy one of they offer the best product at my price point.
I’m not in a rush I will take my time - and follow this thread and others closely
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post #13017 of 13660 Old 01-05-2019, 09:00 AM
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Well even if ignoring the strange fact that left photos is in focus and right is out of focus, it is clearly seen that picture settings differ from each other it's tone and colour temperature are for sure different. It is frankly silly to consider this image as a 'fact' that NX9 model has less contrast than N5.
P.s. I am the owner to 760es/885es so no bias towards JVC

Sent from my ONEPLUS A6003 using Tapatalk
First of all the right picture is not "out of focus". You are trying to take tiny differences in the microperf, which is not bigger than the tip of a needle and a fraction of the size of the actual letters, and exxagerate it as "completely out of focus". The fact of live witnesses including Mori seems also to be irrelevant?

Now all projectors were calibrated and really close in overal picture quality (how often did i state that now?).
The picture shows a side effect of the NX9 Halos (how often did I mention that now?). These Halos are also the reason for the poor ANSI measurement (this also explained at least 3 times).

So why is it that we do not discuss the observation and find explanations for it? I tried to start that, but all I get are these silly accusations.

You guys want to find out, or not?
If yes, I am in, but if you just want to keep up the "JVC is god" song, you do not need me.

By the way: The VW870 did not so great with ANSI either. I explained that an critizied that in the german forums. Of course nobody cited me in that regard? How come? Because it does not fit in your Cine4Home is "pro Sony biased" narrative?

Regards,
EKki

Last edited by Cine4Home; 01-05-2019 at 09:10 AM.
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post #13018 of 13660 Old 01-05-2019, 09:02 AM
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Originally Posted by Cine4Home View Post
To be honest, I am not so sure about that.
I was here for over 12 years and all the time it has been a respectful talk with the goal of objective discussions with other home theatre fans. It was fun an interesting here, I enjoyed it. And I think I could share quite interesting information here during all these years. ;-)

But for the last two years anybody can see, how aggressively some people act when other qualified people do not confirm their stories. Defamation, trolling and so on and so on.

So why should I participate? What is my benefit, if all I get is hate? If people do not want to discuss objective facts, what sense does it make? I do not want to disturb your bubble, you built up here...

Regards.
Ekki
Your benefit is giving us another viewpoint to consider, which I respect. And taking that away would be a loss to the community. Not all of us are of one mind set. And, as I said, I appreciate the various testing done by different people so as to draw my conclusions.
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post #13019 of 13660 Old 01-05-2019, 09:06 AM
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Your benefit is giving us an opposing viewpoint to consider, which I respect. And taking that away would be a loss to the community. Not all of us are of one mind set. And, as I said, I appreciate the various testing done by different people so as to draw my conclusions.
Also, keeping the discussion collegial and avoiding the temptation to attack the messenger would improve the discussion.
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post #13020 of 13660 Old 01-05-2019, 09:12 AM
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If people do not want to discuss objective facts, what sense does it make? I do not want to disturb your bubble, you built up here...

Regards.
Ekki
I think the term objective is in question here when it is clear that the testing method, ie the pictures, are not the same for both. There is something clearly wrong with the second image compared to the first. Not the results but the test itself.

Objective would mean that both images were taken in the exact same manner, in the exact same way as to not skew any results.

If you truly want to claim objectivity, then the test has to be objective. Either re-do the images so they are the same (not blurred) or release RAW images so that they can be compared to determine if there were errors in the testing.
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