NEW JVC RS3000/NX9 RS2000/N7 RS1000/N5 Native 4K Projectors Anticipation Thread - Page 49 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #1441 of 13653 Old 08-31-2018, 08:02 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Aztar35 View Post
Anyone know the details about the lens for the NX9?
18 elements, 16 groups 100mm all glass. Same lens that is in the RS4500.
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post #1442 of 13653 Old 08-31-2018, 08:03 AM
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I am about 20 pages behind and don't care to wade through all of this.

Arrow, could you update the first post with the info on these pjs?

Having fun playing the new mobile game Volley Village
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post #1443 of 13653 Old 08-31-2018, 08:04 AM
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Originally Posted by Buddylee123 View Post
So which one of these new projectors are going in your room?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Want the NX9, but with two in college, I may have to consider the N7.
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post #1444 of 13653 Old 08-31-2018, 08:06 AM
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Originally Posted by HoustonHoyaFan View Post
Not sure who gave you that info but sounds like spin.

Vincent from HDTVTest has already published video overview which clearly shows that the DFO is a feature under the RC menu and can be toggled on or off while allowing other RC features to be individually controlled.

My thought on the digital optimizer, the fact we are told that it is supposed to improve the outer edge focus . The ARC-F lens was likely designed with a sweet spot optimized for a longer throw . Now this ARC-F lens is being used in a short throw range and I'd bet the edges without correction are not so crisp. The optimizer is probably there for this reason , it specifically says edge correction if I have understood the posts and comments made about this feature . The previous lens was designed for a short throw range, it's already in the sweet spot it was designed and intended for .

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post #1445 of 13653 Old 08-31-2018, 08:10 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by roxiedog13 View Post
My post here does not compare to the thousands of trolling posts within the Sony threads, the comparison you are trying to make is a joke . If you have a legitimate answer though , by all means please answer the question I certainly was
rattled within the Sony threads for saying ANSI was important and by some very noteworthy individuals . If it is now important again , I'd love to see the explanation from those that said it was a useless measure for contrast .



In the mean time I'm actually considering the NX9 vs RS4500 or VW5000 as an option . Difference with me I have a purpose and this is a discussion about the upcoming models . I don't mind pointing out those that contradict earlier arguments

always nice to know why such a reversal of conviction . When I'm looking at new products I will engage in every open thread to see all the features and variables , once I have made a decision on a product I do stick to the appropriate thread .
I agree that for a member on this site to NOT be wise enough to check all projectors is a Major-Mistake if one is in the market or going to be.
And with me saying the above your right this site for some reason I honestly still don't really understand it is a Divided-Camp on Sony & JVC for sure.
Why I don't get but it is …………


Terry
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post #1446 of 13653 Old 08-31-2018, 08:12 AM
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Originally Posted by tigerhonaker View Post
I agree that for a member on this site to NOT be wise enough to check all projectors is a Major-Mistake if one is in the market or going to be.
And with me saying the above your right this site for some reason I honestly still don't really understand it is a Divided-Camp on Sony & JVC for sure.
Why I don't get but it is …………


Terry
It's like Ford vs Chevy owners !
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post #1447 of 13653 Old 08-31-2018, 08:15 AM
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Originally Posted by Manni01 View Post
I see no reason why it would be significantly better, based on the same static HDR metadata.

It’s only a criteria for those too lazy/technically challenged to make their own custom curves, and/or too cheap to get a Vertex/hire an installer to set it up so that the best custom curve can be selected automatically according to the content.

Many of us have done this for more than a year now with current models. I could use up to 3 curves, and I use only two as I keep my third gamma slot for HLG, so it’s really nothing that an RS500 cannot do.

This is still behind the curve (pun intended) performance-wise, many of us are now using MadVR for this reason: better performance and better results than with custom curves or automatic curve selection based on metadata, and a lot of headroom for progress. I agree that this comes at the cost of complexity, but users should really not expect any miracle from the new JVC auto tonemapping, they are just catching up.

By the time these are released, MadVR should be miles ahead, but I agree a HTPC isn’t an option for everyone

However, if you have an older player (like the UB900) and don’t want to hear about a Vertex or MadVR, then the new models will bring an easy upgrade to get last year performance in a plug an play package (hopefully!)

If you already have an 820, I wouldn’t expect better, possible worse because Panasonic is usually one step ahead of JVC re tonemapping.

I haven’t seen either, so to be taken with a pinch of salt.
I appreciate the reply, but felt the bolded part to be a bit harsh, no?

Just for the record, I've created my own custom curves, have a Linker in the chain to restore DI and prevent Gamma D auto-switching. Working well with my RS400.

I just found it interesting to see the auto tone mapping announcement for the new JVC's, given the very recent availability of Panasonic's new player providing similar sounding capabilities.

And regarding MadVR, that's why I qualified my post to apply to us still spinning discs.

I'm interested in the new JVC's, and am considering buying the UB-820 (with many including Kris Deering, as I understand his posts, feeling that it's tone mapping is preferable to the custom curve approach), so am naturally curious about how their tone mapping will compare.
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post #1448 of 13653 Old 08-31-2018, 08:19 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Garrett View Post
Want the NX9, but with two in college, I may have to consider the N7.
Mike Garrett,



So, Mike that must mean you are thinking/considering/pondering selling your RS4500 (Buddy)
I'm sure you do remember how to contact me, right


Terry



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post #1449 of 13653 Old 08-31-2018, 08:19 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Garrett View Post
Want the NX9, but with two in college, I may have to consider the N7.
I thought you were satisfied enough with the 4500 to stick with it for another year?

Shouldn't you keep it until the bulb (laser) is at least half way 'used up' as a rule of thumb?
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post #1450 of 13653 Old 08-31-2018, 08:25 AM
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Originally Posted by CrazyEddie View Post
I thought you were satisfied enough with the 4500 to stick with it for another year?

Shouldn't you keep it until the bulb (laser) is at least half way 'used up' as a rule of thumb?
Mike sold his a while ago.

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post #1451 of 13653 Old 08-31-2018, 08:27 AM
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Originally Posted by CrazyEddie View Post
I thought you were satisfied enough with the 4500 to stick with it for another year?

Shouldn't you keep it until the bulb (laser) is at least half way 'used up' as a rule of thumb?
He sold it a while back and is slumming with a 640.
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post #1452 of 13653 Old 08-31-2018, 08:32 AM
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Originally Posted by DLCPhoto View Post
I appreciate the reply, but felt the bolded part to be a bit harsh, no?

Just for the record, I've created my own custom curves, have a Linker in the chain to restore DI and prevent Gamma D auto-switching. Working well with my RS400.

I just found it interesting to see the auto tone mapping announcement for the new JVC's, given the very recent availability of Panasonic's new player providing similar sounding capabilities.

And regarding MadVR, that's why I qualified my post to apply to us still spinning discs.

I'm interested in the new JVC's, and am considering buying the UB-820 (with many including Kris Deering, as I understand his posts, feeling that it's tone mapping is preferable to the custom curve approach), so am naturally curious about how their tone mapping will compare.
Apology if you though this was directed at you, it wasn't.

I only meant to say that the auto tonemapping in the upcoming JVCs likely doesn't bring much improvement to people like you who have used custom curves in the last year and/or have upgraded to a 820, because they are based on the same static HDR10 metadata and there is only so much that you can do with this limited, often unreliable or incorrect information.

It's a bit like when they enabled the DI in HDR, which we had enabled ourselves with the Integral and Linker for about a year. They are one cycle behind, so they are catching up.

If you've kept up to date, you're not likely to see any significant progress, but the projector handling it makes it more convenient for sure.

Again, apologies if what I said felt harsh, to you or anyone else. It wasn't my intention. It's just that there have been many options to get better HDR than what offered by current and past models, so my guess is that whoever lived with JVC's implementation either didn't care or had another excuse.

And this is not to belittle what JVC is doing, they have to deal with a constantly evolving non-standard, and I guess they are doing the best they can. But they are late, mainly because they prefer to use these "improvements" as bullet points to sell new models, rather than provide f/w updates to their customers as they figure out how to do better.

Enabling the DI in HDR? One test to change in the f/w. Done two years ago with Integral/Linker.
Auto tone-mapping? Selecting a few custom gamma curves based on the HDR metadata. Done last year with Vertex.

I think they'd get a lot more good will (and loyalty) from their customer if they showed less cynicism with support updates.

Let's say I was trying to manage expectations (not necessarily yours by the way). I could be wrong about how the new models perform, and I was definitely wrong in how I phrased that sentence

At least this year they offer REAL upgrades, unlike the last couple of years, where most new "features" (expect game mode) could have been provided with a f/w upgrade.

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post #1453 of 13653 Old 08-31-2018, 08:37 AM
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Just an FYI, I've been using the 820 for only a short while now with my RS440, but I prefer it over my custom Arve curves.
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post #1454 of 13653 Old 08-31-2018, 08:41 AM
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Originally Posted by Tom Bley View Post
He sold it a while back and is slumming with a 640.
Some folks just have a rough life.

IMO this thread is really starting to get down to that for those who are willing and able to do yearly upgrades, they will always want one of this year's model.

For those more constrained, it will be a few weeks before the actual measured performance of the production models by some of our esteemed colleagues/dealers in this forum before the bulk of us plebes really have enough information to, start, deciding on whether these are truly 'compelling' upgrades from wherever we are at now.

Including little things like it has been reported that the motorized lens cap is now gone across all models. (I really like my motorized lens cover. )

Regardless, a fun thread and several of the 'side' conversations have had solid/substantial amounts of information. Thank you to all those contributors.
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post #1455 of 13653 Old 08-31-2018, 08:42 AM
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Just an FYI, I've been using the 820 for only a short while now with my RS440, but I prefer it over my custom Arve curves.
That's fair enough, especially if your curves were made by ChadB, who I trust to get the most of custom curves, and I definitely trust your eyes.

I haven't seen the 820 (no HDMI 2.1, so not interested to upgrade my UB900).

I'm not using custom curves anymore (except when I need to play the odd UHD Bluray that I can't rip), moved to MadVR, so not really interested in better curves.
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post #1456 of 13653 Old 08-31-2018, 08:46 AM
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Originally Posted by tigerhonaker View Post
Mike Garrett,



So, Mike that must mean you are thinking/considering/pondering selling your RS4500 (Buddy)
I'm sure you do remember how to contact me, right


Terry


I'll let you know if I decide to sell mine. That won't be anytime soon.
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post #1457 of 13653 Old 08-31-2018, 08:47 AM
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Originally Posted by CrazyEddie View Post
Some folks just have a rough life.

IMO this thread is really starting to get down to that for those who are willing and able to do yearly upgrades, they will always want one of this year's model.

For those more constrained, it will be a few weeks before the actual measured performance of the production models by some of our esteemed colleagues/dealers in this forum before the bulk of us plebes really have enough information to, start, deciding on whether these are truly 'compelling' upgrades from wherever we are at now.

Including little things like it has been reported that the motorized lens cap is now gone across all models. (I really like my motorized lens cover. )

Regardless, a fun thread and several of the 'side' conversations have had solid/substantial amounts of information. Thank you to all those contributors.
You're crazy!
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post #1458 of 13653 Old 08-31-2018, 08:47 AM
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Originally Posted by ARROW-AV View Post
Heres a titbit... ANSI contrast is increased by circa 50%

Hi Nigel, last minute request - can you please ask if vertical streaks from white lettering on a black background have been completely eliminated? i didn't see it on that list you carried with you. thx
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post #1459 of 13653 Old 08-31-2018, 08:51 AM
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Originally Posted by tigerhonaker View Post
I agree that for a member on this site to NOT be wise enough to check all projectors is a Major-Mistake if one is in the market or going to be.
And with me saying the above your right this site for some reason I honestly still don't really understand it is a Divided-Camp on Sony & JVC for sure.
Why I don't get but it is …………


Terry
That is the biggest change I see in AVS now that I am back posting after a 5 year hiatus. Every post seems to be about proving that one brand is "better" than the other which is annoying to folks just trying to get info on which projector would best fill one's own individual needs.
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post #1460 of 13653 Old 08-31-2018, 08:52 AM
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Originally Posted by Ximori View Post
Hi Nigel, last minute request - can you please ask if vertical streaks from white lettering on a black background have been completely eliminated? i didn't see it on that list you carried with you. thx
This was one of the questions added at the last minute to the list by Ric (off forum), along with ANSI contrast improvements, bright corner improvements and how did JVC improve the native contrast on the 4K panels.

Unfortunately it looks like Arrow-AV and Ran are MIA. They are either still measuring ANSI contrast without using the Greg Rogers simplified method, or they have broken their promise are have boarded that plane before reporting back. How dare they
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post #1461 of 13653 Old 08-31-2018, 08:53 AM
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Originally Posted by roxiedog13 View Post
Interesting ANSI may actually be important again. A couple of very prominent people have gone through a lot of energy to convince us ANSI is irrelevant , now it seems to magically be significant again . Perhaps they could reevaluate the

matter and explain .
In the mean time Sony has always had a significant ANSI compared to some of the competition , 50% or more in many cases . Maybe now it will become important again .............magically .
It's not really. Just because a metric has increased it does not mean it's now the most important metric. Amazed you find a way to twist everything around to suit you.

I would say native on/off is at least 10x more important than ANSI.

Nobody is going to decline having a rather high number for both. Potentially class leading numbers at that.

Good luck seeing above 350/400:1 in any room anyway, I've always said that.

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post #1462 of 13653 Old 08-31-2018, 08:57 AM
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Originally Posted by Craig Peer View Post
I'll let you know if I decide to sell mine.
That won't be anytime soon.
Craig,


Hey I just saw the post on Mike and did not recall that he already sold his.


I'm really not wanting to make the move right now but sometimes one would be (Smart) to go ahead if the Price-was-Really-Really-{Right}.


From what I keep reading it seems the general consensus is JVC will introduce the next series RS4500.
If that does happen and I think that does make sense since if I'm right 2019 is three (3) years for the current model.
Then I have little doubt the pricing on the current RS4500 will be, shall we say, more to my Budget.


Terry
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post #1463 of 13653 Old 08-31-2018, 08:58 AM
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I'm not too disappointed that the NX9 does not have laser, even though I've been wanting laser for years. It will be great for calibration stability and for quick on/off without bulb guilt of turning on a pj just to catch the end of a game, etc. But if after 5000 hours I've lost say 1/4 brightness on a laser that cannot be easily/cheaply replaced, then I think the bulb is an advantage because that can be easily and cheaply swapped. Also with the auto calibration its a breeze to just fix any drift from time to time. Compared to years ago when I'd have to spend 6 hours manually editing the gamma in the RS1 to get a proper calibration.

If the ANSI CR increase is indeed close to 50%, that is very significant to me. My Sony VW95 has an advantage over the older JVC lines in the area of ANSI CR and I always felt the image looked better and more lifelike on the VW95, which I attributed largely to its 400-500 ANSI CR in my bat cave. I read above that someone said 400+ ANSI CR would beat the Sony. So at some point in more recent years did Sony's ANSI CR drop? IIRC it was 400+ with the VW95.

The big question I have right now is if this ANSI CR is real, and if so, if it is in the chip design in which case it may be in at least the NX7 and NX9, or if it is in the lens than it may be NX9 only.

Are the dimensions of the NX7 and NX9 the same, or is the NX9 bigger? I think I read that it has the same mounting holes as the RS500? That would be convenient.
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post #1464 of 13653 Old 08-31-2018, 09:00 AM
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Originally Posted by Aztar35 View Post
I like that. But recall that everytime I would talk about ANSI contrast, someone here would be quick to retort that it really didn't matter and that I would not be able to see it and that even if there could be some benefit at all, room dependence capability could obviate.

I'm hoping you can see it.
It really doesn't matter and you probably won't see it in your room so don't worry

In all seriousness you could probably get an absolutely stellar room to show up near 400:1 measured at the screen,

where it is cool is that by starting with a higher number and you stop down the iris (and lose ANSI) you will hopefully still retain an in room ANSI response closer to that of what the room can actually do vs being at the limitation of the projector if that makes sense.

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post #1465 of 13653 Old 08-31-2018, 09:00 AM
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I think the only real ANSI differences we're likely to see are a reduction in streaking and halo's. Not sure about the reflections as they're probably more internal light path than ANSI per se, but with these new models I would think they'd be gone now.

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post #1466 of 13653 Old 08-31-2018, 09:02 AM
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Could the increase in ANSI be a reflection on work they've done to decrease the internal reflections?


(Looks like Gary beat me to it while I was posting)

Last edited by dlinsley; 08-31-2018 at 09:12 AM.
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post #1467 of 13653 Old 08-31-2018, 09:12 AM
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Here goes guys,

So I attended 2 different JVC Demo's this afternoon. At the end of the second one, I was able to persuade one of the guys there to put some of our own stuff (Nigel and I).

Before we get to my impressions, I had a few minutes with one of their tech guys and managed to get some answers to some of the questions I had. Some questions remained unanswered, as they wouldn't give a straight, or any answer to the question asked.

In NO particular order:

1. Ansi Contrast has been improved and is now similar to the 4500.

2. The lens on the 5+7 are the same as last years lens.

3. Updates will be done via the USB port.

4. A completely new Light engine.

5. Iris is the same as last years, BUT the N9 will have a brand new Iris system.

6. Sync times will be cut in half.

7. Streaking is a thing of the past (hopefully of course…)

8. Light loss with the filter will be less (not sure how much less) than last year.

9. New and improved calibration software will be out shortly, NO support for new sensors.

10. Bright Corners (my absolute nightmare) is a well known issue, which currently can NOT be solved under current conditions and pricing. Asked about this "picking the best parts stuff" (which is a thing of the past now, but still made me wonder...) and they said it has nothing to do or no effect on bright corners what so ever, just lens and better contrast.


As for the Demo.


The N9 was the only projector running.

The showed a bunch of nature stuff which of course I'm not familiar with. The Iris was on Manual, because the Dynamic Iris is still a work in progress.

The screen was a Stewart 1.3 gain, 3.8M width, which made things quite difficult for me to evaluate as I have the HP (1.7 Gain effectively) screen with 3M width, so this can be a little tricky.


Brightness was Ok but I couldn't say it was great, there was A LOT of mosquito noise which would not go away, even when we turned the E.Shift Off.

I saw some serious Banding during the demo, in fact 3-4 times during this 20 minutes demo.

Sharpness was very good and there was a lot of detail which was quite remarkable.
Contrast looked fine as well, I can't say, coming from a X9500,that I was aware of any problems with the contrast.

We then switched to parts of Pacific Rim 2, which I'm not familiar with it so I have no reference. Having said that I think the picture was very good , a lot of detail , very sharp and nice contrast, Brightness seemed OK, but not something that made me think it was more than enough. Motion was fine, but it did not seem any different from what I'm used to.

After the public Demo was over I was given the opportunity to watch Skyfall at 1080P which I know better than anyone who has ever worked on the film..

I had a close look at the balcony scene (where Bond is given a shave..) and it looked very good in terms of sharpness, brightness and contrast, though I did see this kind of mosquito noise which I'm not familiar with on my unit.

As mentioned, the screen was much bigger than my own, so comparing to the picture I see at home is quite difficult, but I came out thinking that this looked very good, but not necessarily much better than mine.

I was meaning to test some 4K footage but we where out of time and I let Nigel put on some test patterns so we can further evaluate things. I'll let him say a few words about that, but it was surely impressive.

In summery, coming from the X9500, I think that the N7 will be quite risky in terms of contrast and perhaps it might become an issue.

The N9 seems to be the obvious choice for a true upgrade but price wise and the fact that this is not a 2.1 chip (No idea of any upgrade path) this will be too risky to purchase one with out viewing a production unit first.

So, I'm on hold right now until I get to test out (or someone I trust) a production unit and evaluate how much of an upgrade this thing really is.


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post #1468 of 13653 Old 08-31-2018, 09:13 AM
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Any word if JVC has improved their motion handling to better compete with Sony's?
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post #1469 of 13653 Old 08-31-2018, 09:19 AM
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I flat out don't believe the answer to question 2. It contradicts other things I have heard from JVC here.
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post #1470 of 13653 Old 08-31-2018, 09:20 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by roxiedog13 View Post
Interesting ANSI may actually be important again. A couple of very prominent people have gone through a lot of energy to convince us ANSI is irrelevant , now it seems to magically be significant again . Perhaps they could reevaluate the

matter and explain .
In the mean time Sony has always had a significant ANSI compared to some of the competition , 50% or more in many cases . Maybe now it will become important again .............magically .
People confuse peak white with ANSI contrast when trying to determine if an image benefits.
There is temporal contrast (over time) with peak whites being able to go really high, but that isn't ANSI contrast.

The reason ANSI contrast is hard to see is because it is self polluting to the eye, theoretically on a giant screen and sitting really close your eyes could see more ANSI variation.
This is because they can focus on one part of the screen with less pollution, the screen and your eyes pollute themselves when it comes to ANSI contrast.

Even when the image is improved by ANSI, it's just naturally much harder for our eyes to see a difference in bright scene contrast than it is in dark scene contrast.
Just because a peak white can get really bright in a scene doesn't mean that is due to ANSI contrast, because the dark areas are also being raised.
Even though ANSI takes into account dark and bright spots (checkerboard), it takes it into account at too much of an extreme difference with too much white pattern area on the screen.

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