NEW JVC RS3000/NX9 RS2000/N7 RS1000/N5 Native 4K Projectors Anticipation Thread - Page 55 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #1621 of 13653 Old 09-01-2018, 02:10 AM
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Originally Posted by markmon1 View Post
Does your lamp flickering also appear if you kick the lamp into "high"? None of my JVC lamps have ever flickered, but one of my Sony lamps did this and it was good running at high.
Yes it flickers during startup settles down after 10mins, but you can still see the occasional flicker. High or low makes no difference. It's not a faulty lamp, I have 2 JVC lamps. The RS20 I had before that was rock solid.
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post #1622 of 13653 Old 09-01-2018, 02:13 AM
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I'm going to accept the definition of "native contrast" here to be measurements taken at center of the screen, with the iris set into a stationary position "somewhere" and in that position measuring a full black screen and a full white screen and comparing. I'd take a dynamic contrast ratio to allow changing that iris position between black and white measurements. For a laser, substitute iris for laser power as that's the dynamic component. If they have some "trickery" that improves the native contrast ratio with this definition, all the more power to them. I want more of it.

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post #1623 of 13653 Old 09-01-2018, 02:17 AM - Thread Starter
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UPDATE:

I just had another private meeting with JVC and the main technical guy was there.

Regarding the lens on the N5 and N7, the reality is that the lens is the same lens but which has been improved. In other words, JVC took the existing lens design and have made some improvements. Therefore, it is neither the same lens nor completely new, but is definitely better as compared with the lens on the existing eshift range

Furthermore, with respect to the prevously reported mosquito video noise, yes there was some instances of mosquito video noise, however I have also seen instances where there is none. I also do not remember seeing any mosquito video noise whatsoever with respect to the native 4K content that I myself put on yesterday. And further to this during my private meeting with JVC today I confirmed this fact.

I also have confirmed that there is also absolutely ZERO additional noise added when turning eShift 8K on with respect to the NX9.

The only instance of mosquito video noise that I have witnessed today is with respect to HD content being upscaled by the projector, which it is not recommended that you do anyway; it is best to feed the projector HD that is pre-upscaled optimally to 4K. And with respect to yesterday, since there was not the ability to have proper handson we don't know what exactly was the situation regarding what was being actually sent to the projector in all instances, so it is possible that native 4K content was being outputted to the projector as HD 1080p. We therefore need to be careful regarding making statements that indicate that the projector is at fault and that specifically the fault relates to inability to playback native 4K content without 'incurable' mosquito video noise.

Also, with respect to the luminance, this certainly looks like what you'd expect a 2,200 lumens projector to look like.


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post #1624 of 13653 Old 09-01-2018, 02:19 AM
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I just made another comparison yesterday between my x7900 and the vw760es. What I wanted to test was lamp vs laser. As this will be the main difference between the NX9 and the vw760es.

The x7900's lightsource feels unstable compared to the vw760es, it's hard to describe. But there's this very slight flicker ish feeling when looking at the JVC that I also had much worse on my old hw40es. It's not pronounced, you can't actually visibly see it, but the unstable image did make the image less pleasant to watch.

By comparison, the laser felt like it was much more calm and easier to look at.

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post #1625 of 13653 Old 09-01-2018, 02:21 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ARROW-AV View Post
UPDATE:

I just had my own private meeting with JVC and the main technical guy was there.

Regarding the lens on the N5 and N7, the reality is that the lens is the same lens but which has been improved. It is neither the same lens nor completely new, but is definitely better as compared with the lens on the existing eshift range

Furthermore, THERE IS ABSOLUTELY ZERO VIDEO NOISE WITH NATIVE 4K CONTENT

Sorry, but any reports to the contrary are total misinformation.

There is also absolutely ZERO noise added when turning eShift 8K on with respect to the NX9.

The only instance of video noise that I have witnessed is with respect to HD content being upscaled by the projector, which it is not advised you do anyway.

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What type of noise should not be visible? Ran mentioned banding, mosquito noise, posterization.

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post #1626 of 13653 Old 09-01-2018, 02:25 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by christoffeldg View Post
What type of noise should not be visible? Ran mentioned banding, mosquito noise, posterization.
Firstly banding = posterization. They are the same thing

Video noise refers to 'mosquito noise';. Whilst Ran is absolutely right that there were instances of mosquito noise yesterday, I don't recall the native 4K content that I put on having any and there was not any mosquito noise with respect to the native 4K content that I put on today, but there was when HD1080p content was inputted to the projector.

I am speculating here, but one possibility is that the OPPO was set to output as HD 1080p to the projector, meaning native 4K content would be downscaled and outputted to the projector as HD1080p which then upscale it back to 4K again, but produce the video noise that I have been seeing with HD1080p content.

The posterization is reportedly only relevant to the pre-production unit. JVC has confirmed this will not be present with the production units.

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post #1627 of 13653 Old 09-01-2018, 02:53 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Ran View Post
The mosquito noise I saw was very clear and it was on every stuff which was shown, 4k and 1080p, stuff from a disc or a usb stick, it was there and it was very clear to me. Turning e.shift off did not solve this.

Banding was also clear to see and I saw it for 3-4 times each demo and I'm not that banding sensitive...

As to bright corners, which on the other hand I'm very sensitive to.
The room at some parts of the demo was quite dark ,certainly not a bat cave but still dark, I couldn't say that I noticed Bright corners but then again there where no fade to blacks which would have helped to spot them.
As mentioned this is something that they are aware of and can not be solved under current conditions.
Ran,
Sorry but this quite simply is not true.

See my post above regarding mosquito noise.

As mentioned, one possibility is that the OPPO was set to output as HD 1080p to the projector, meaning native 4K content would be downscaled and outputted to the projector as HD1080p which then upscale it back to 4K again, but produce the video noise that I have been seeing with HD1080p content. In fact, I discovered this morning that the particular OPPO Blu-Ray player (they were/are using more than one) was indeed set to output all video as HD 1080p for God knows what reason. But when I made sure that native 4K was being fed to the projector I did not see any mosquito noise.

Whilst you are there on Sunday I recommend you speak to Michael Schiffers, because he was there during my private meeting, in addition to the main technical guy from JVC. He will be able to show you this


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post #1628 of 13653 Old 09-01-2018, 02:55 AM
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Is it even confirmed that there are still dual irises? I'm not sure I've seen that detail (might have missed it)

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I would think there would have dual irises as in the RS640. Note that the RS540 and RS640 have dual irises, these have a considerable hike of contrast over the RS440, I think the lamp iris 'could' play a role in upping the 'native contrast'. I believe the top 2 models have better polarisers.

Even in fully manual mode the lamp iris appears to be closing down somewhat during very low video levels. Could you check your unit. Perhaps the true native contrast of these units arn't 130-160,000:1 but that figure may be achieved by subtly closing down the lamp iris during the appropriate moments. Needs further investigation.

Not that it matters, it's quite seamless. If it's so, no reason it hasn't been employed effectively in the new units.

I'm running my X9900/RS640 in manual mode now. The image dynamic range appears better.

EDIT: Couldn't replicate the effect on fully manual.

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post #1629 of 13653 Old 09-01-2018, 02:57 AM
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Originally Posted by markmon1 View Post
Again, this is dynamic contrast. They provided native contrast numbers. That has nothing to do with an iris dynamically changing. They also provided a dynamic contrast number of about 10x the native number where this would be taken into account. The only "trickery" they could have done to fudge the numbers would have been if the iris at -15 or whatever the max closed setting was, resulted in a more clamped down aperture than the RS640 line at -15. That would have yielded a better contrast ratio but a less usable image at that setting and was speculated as one method they used to get a comparable native contrast measurement. This was explicitly asked to JVC and they said this is *not* the case and that the -15 is about the same aperture as as the RS640 at -15.

I guess it's says a lot that JVC's numbers are so good you're in complete disbelief. I guess you should just wait for reviewers to take measurements and report back. I am going to do the same, but I am not in disbelief. JVC hasn't been deceptive with its contrast numbers in the past.
See my reply to bobof. Please check your RS640 too.

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post #1630 of 13653 Old 09-01-2018, 03:14 AM
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So we have

JVC 590R / 440 = 34.0 lbs / 17 7/8 W x 18 9/16 D x 7 H / 1800 lumens / 40,000:1 Native
JVC 790R / 540 = 34.4 lbs / 17 7/8 W x 18 9/16 D x 7 H / 1900 lumens / 130,000:1 Native
JVC 990R / 640 = 34.4 lbs / 17 7/8 W x 18 9/16 D x 7 H / 2000 lumens / 160,000:1 Native

JVC RS4500K / Z1 = 82.67 lbs / 19 11/16 W x 28 3/4 D x 9 1/4 H / 3000 lumens /

JVC N5 = 43.6 lbs / 19 11/16 W x 19 1/2 D x 9 1/4 H / 1800 lumens / 40,000:1 Native
JVC N7 = 43.6 lbs / 19 11/16 W x 19 1/2 D x 9 1/4 H / 1900 lumens / 80,000:1 Native
JVC NX9 = 48.0lbs / 19 11/16 W x 20 3/8 D x 9 1/4 H / 2200 lumens / 100,000:1 Native

So new chassis are same width and height as the Z1, just a bit shorter. Looks to of gained 9 to 14 lbs over the 990R.

Wanting an NX9..
Thanks. I was waiting for someone to do the size calcs 👍. I wonder if our existing chief mounts will work. I’m in on the N7. When will we get an avs preorder?

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post #1631 of 13653 Old 09-01-2018, 03:23 AM
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Originally Posted by Highjinx View Post
I would think there would have dual irises as in the RS640. Note that the RS540 and RS640 have dual irises, these have a considerable hike of contrast over the RS440, I think the lamp iris 'could' play a role in upping the 'native contrast'. I believe the top 2 models have better polarisers.

Even in fully manual mode the lamp iris appears to be closing down somewhat during very low video levels. Could you check your unit. Perhaps the true native contrast of these units arn't 130-160,000:1 but that figure may be achieved by subtly closing down the lamp iris during the appropriate moments. Needs further investigation.

Not that it matters, it's quite seamless. If it's so, no reason it hasn't been employed effectively in the new units.

I'm running my X9900/RS640 in manual mode now. The image dynamic range appears better.

EDIT: Couldn't replicate the effect on fully manual.
I would expect it perhaps has dual iris but it isn't described from what I can see.

I'm not sure I understand what you are saying fully as it doesn't match my understanding of operation. The lamp iris on 540 and 640 as far as I know only moves when you change the iris level in the menu - it is too noisy to be able to work in any kind of dynamic mode. It only has 8 or so levels - these as set to be every other one of the iris settings. When you have DI enabled it leaves the lamp iris at whatever setting corresponds to the manual iris level and only adjusts the lens iris due to content.

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Last edited by bobof; 09-01-2018 at 03:32 AM. Reason: Hi I
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post #1632 of 13653 Old 09-01-2018, 03:45 AM
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Originally Posted by ARROW-AV View Post
I could not agree more! A new flagship that's essentially an NX9 with laser light source, 5000 lumens, and HDR10+

NX9 without laser is disappointing, 870ES at 2200 lumens also. Now I can wait for next year´s lineup with my 885ES.
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post #1633 of 13653 Old 09-01-2018, 03:51 AM
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Originally Posted by Eventidal View Post
NX9 without laser is disappointing, 870ES at 2200 lumens also. I can wait for next year´s lineup with my 885ES.
That's my thoughts exactly.. not worth the extra 10K over the 885...

Minimum upgrade would be:

- 3K lumens (after calibration)
- BT 2020
- Full Bandwidth 38gbps HMDI 2.1
- Significant contrast improvements
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post #1634 of 13653 Old 09-01-2018, 03:53 AM
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Thanks Arrow.

I will be back there on Sunday and have a chat with Michael whom I know for some time.

All my reports are based on what I saw yesterday with their own Demo material which was 4k and NOT 1080p. In fact, the whole demo was just 4k so the opppo setting you referred to does not make sense.

It was surely outputting the content and not downscaling 4k material.

In fact, the only 1080p shown yesterday was my own , which was Skyfall.

All material, regardless of resolution, showed video noise and some showed Banding, it was very clear and easy to see.

I hold judgment, as this is not the final unit and I'll be back tomorrow for another look, but it is what it is

Ran
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post #1635 of 13653 Old 09-01-2018, 03:59 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ARROW-AV View Post
UPDATE:
The only instance of video noise that I have witnessed is with respect to HD content being upscaled by the projector, which it is not recommended that you do anyway; it is best to feed the projector HD that is pre-upscaled optimally to 4K
Thanks ARROW-AV for the update. So if you have sources that arn't 4K or that can't be upscaled like FTA TV without an external video upscaler this isn't a projector for you unless you want the resultant mosquito noise? Is JVCs upscaling generally not recommended or is the upscaling only poor on these 4K models?
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post #1636 of 13653 Old 09-01-2018, 04:22 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Ran View Post
Thanks Arrow.

I will be back there on Sunday and have a chat with Michael whom I know for some time.

All my reports are based on what I saw yesterday with their own Demo material which was 4k and NOT 1080p. In fact, the whole demo was just 4k so the opppo setting you referred to does not make sense.

It was surely outputting the content and not downscaling 4k material.

In fact, the only 1080p shown yesterday was my own , which was Skyfall.

All material, regardless of resolution, showed video noise and some showed Banding, it was very clear and easy to see.

I hold judgment, as this is not the final unit and I'll be back tomorrow for another look, but it is what it is

Ran
Ran,
I agree that there was instances of video noise yesterday, in particular when you played Skyfall. But I do not recollect there being video noise with the native 4K content that I put on and I verified that this is indeed the case today. Plus because we did not have handson yesterday we do not know for sure what was actually be inputted to the projector. When I had handson today I discovered that the OPPO that had been used was set to output as HD1080p...
.

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post #1637 of 13653 Old 09-01-2018, 04:22 AM
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Originally Posted by ARROW-AV View Post
Ran,

Sorry but this quite simply is not true.



See my post above regarding video noise.



It is possible that when you saw native 4K content the OPPO was set to output as HD 1080p to the projector. It was in fact set this way when I was handed the remote control during my private meeting with JVC this morning. This would mean that the native 4K content was/is being down-converted to HD1080p, then fed to the projector as HD1080, then upscaled by the projector to 4K UHD, resulting in the video noise that's present with respect to HD1080p media. This would explain how it might be possible to be seeing the video noise that's present when you feed HD 1080p content to the projector in relation to 4K source material. But if you feed native 4K content to the projector there is ABSOLUTELY ZERO video noise.



Whilst you are there on Sunday I recommend you speak to Michael Schiffers, because he was there during my private meeting, in addition to the main technical guy from JVC. He will be able to demonstrate to you that there is ABSOLUTELY ZERO video noise with native 4K content





You clearly saw two different presentations with two different eyes. I wouldn’t call that misinformation. Your feedback is reassuring though.
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post #1638 of 13653 Old 09-01-2018, 04:24 AM
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You clearly saw two different presentations with two different eyes. I wouldn’t call that misinformation. Your feedback is reassuring though.


That’s four eyes actually. Sorry for this misinformation. ;-)
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post #1639 of 13653 Old 09-01-2018, 04:28 AM
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Originally Posted by coolgeek View Post
That's my thoughts exactly.. not worth the extra 10K over the 885...



Minimum upgrade would be:



- 3K lumens (after calibration)

- BT 2020

- Full Bandwidth 38gbps HMDI 2.1

- Significant contrast improvements


You’re clearly not in a hurry :-)

BT.2020 full coverage is not realistic though. Full DCI coverage without light loss more so (with projectors).
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post #1640 of 13653 Old 09-01-2018, 04:30 AM - Thread Starter
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You clearly saw two different presentations with two different eyes. I wouldn’t call that misinformation. Your feedback is reassuring though.
Incorrect. I did not see a presentation. I carried out a hands on evaluation in person. And all the other AV professionals in the room with me including Michael concur.

.
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post #1641 of 13653 Old 09-01-2018, 04:41 AM
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Originally Posted by ARROW-AV View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ran View Post
Thanks Arrow.

I will be back there on Sunday and have a chat with Michael whom I know for some time.

All my reports are based on what I saw yesterday with their own Demo material which was 4k and NOT 1080p. In fact, the whole demo was just 4k so the opppo setting you referred to does not make sense.

It was surely outputting the content and not downscaling 4k material.

In fact, the only 1080p shown yesterday was my own , which was Skyfall.

All material, regardless of resolution, showed video noise and some showed Banding, it was very clear and easy to see.

I hold judgment, as this is not the final unit and I'll be back tomorrow for another look, but it is what it is

Ran
Sorry Ran,
You are mistaken. Michael will tell you this himself.
The problem is you've posted misinformation regarding this.
I had to definitively confirm this myself today and I have done so.
Michael isn't happy about this by the way...
.
I am very sorry for posting what I saw, and even more sorry to hear that Michael is upset...is this a joke?!

I am not going to sugar coat what I saw, and in fact I'm troubled by the fact that your views have changed in such away, because we saw the exact same things, and talked through out the demo about the noise and banding.

I'm a bit surprised to read your overwhelming reports now when we sat and spoke through the entire session about the things I'm reporting.

Well, maybe you saw something completely different today which made you change your mind in such a way.

I guess that if they are so troubled and upset by my findings, they will make an effort to correct my findings when I come in tomorrow .

Ran
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post #1642 of 13653 Old 09-01-2018, 04:42 AM
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Originally Posted by bobof View Post
I would expect it perhaps has dual iris but it isn't described from what I can see.

I'm not sure I understand what you are saying fully as it doesn't match my understanding of operation. The lamp iris on 540 and 640 as far as I know only moves when you change the iris level in the menu - it is too noisy to be able to work in any kind of dynamic mode. It only has 8 or so levels - these as set to be every other one of the iris settings. When you have DI enabled it leaves the lamp iris at whatever setting corresponds to the manual iris level and only adjusts the lens iris due to content.

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On auto 1, -15 manual iris there was an instance on the Skyfall disk, before the Avatar trailer, there was a full fade to black for a couple of seconds. The auto iris shut down, then the black level got lower again, I assumed it may be the lamp iris closing down a step or two. It would be a neat feature if it was happening.

As long as it's a seamless experience, it's a positive. Damn Skyfall Shanghai night scenes look spectacular fully manual -15 iris.

I'm going to drive this unit manually from now on!

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post #1643 of 13653 Old 09-01-2018, 04:44 AM
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Ran,
Please continue to report what you see and share your thoughts and opinions. This is AVS forum not Pravda.
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post #1644 of 13653 Old 09-01-2018, 04:55 AM
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Originally Posted by Highjinx View Post
On auto 1, -15 manual iris there was an instance on the Skyfall disk, before the Avatar trailer, there was a full fade to black for a couple of seconds. The auto iris shut down, then the black level got lower again, I assumed it may be the lamp iris closing down a step or two. It would be a neat feature if it was happening.

As long as it's a seamless experience, it's a positive. Damn Skyfall Shanghai night scenes look spectacular fully manual -15 iris.

I'm going to drive this unit manually from now on!
I am pretty sure you're just observing the lens iris, the lamp iris is too noisy to move while you are actually watching a movie. You can see the lens iris in operation at all times, just watch the lens from an angle.

Dynamic iris has extra low levels of lens iris - even lower than can be selected manually. There is a big thread that describes it somewhere - I am on mobile at the mo so can't find it.

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post #1645 of 13653 Old 09-01-2018, 04:56 AM
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Originally Posted by ARROW-AV View Post
UPDATE:

I just had my own private meeting with JVC and the main technical guy was there.

Regarding the lens on the N5 and N7, the reality is that the lens is the same lens but which has been improved. In other words, JVC took the existing lens design and have made some improvements. Therefore, it is neither the same lens nor completely new, but is definitely better as compared with the lens on the existing eshift range

Furthermore, THERE IS ABSOLUTELY ZERO VIDEO NOISE WITH NATIVE 4K CONTENT

Sorry, but any reports to the contrary are total misinformation.

There is also absolutely ZERO noise added when turning eShift 8K on with respect to the NX9.

The only instance of video noise that I have witnessed is with respect to HD content being upscaled by the projector, which it is not recommended that you do anyway; it is best to feed the projector HD that is pre-upscaled optimally to 4K

Also, with respect to the luminance, this certainly looks like what you'd expect a 2,200 lumens projector to look like.

Where u able to see a difference with 8k eshift on.. was it even sharper than 4k?

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post #1646 of 13653 Old 09-01-2018, 04:59 AM
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Originally Posted by Highjinx View Post
See my reply to bobof. Please check your RS640 too.
Test that theory you have on manual mode iris doing something on fade-to-black. I think it might do something then and only then. When I was testing dynamic iris off, the fade to blacks were suspiciously great still.
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post #1647 of 13653 Old 09-01-2018, 05:07 AM
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Where u able to see a difference with 8k eshift on.. was it even sharper than 4k?
There's just no way this is going to make any difference. I remember the first 4K eshift projector and the feature was just awful. It did nothing to sharpen the picture. In my opinion, JVC's internal upscaler has always been super worthless. It's just not one of the things they do well. If you're interested in the NX9, you should just assume eshift 8k doesnt exist.
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post #1648 of 13653 Old 09-01-2018, 05:08 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Ran View Post
I am very sorry for posting what I saw, and even more sorry to hear that Michael is upset...is this a joke?!

I am not going to sugar coat what I saw, and in fact I'm troubled by the fact that your views have changed in such away, because we saw the exact same things, and talked through out the demo about the noise and banding.

I'm a bit surprised to read your overwhelming reports now when we sat and spoke through the entire session about the things I'm reporting.

Well, maybe you saw something completely different today which made you change your mind in such a way.

I guess that if they are so troubled and upset by my findings, they will make an effort to correct my findings when I come in tomorrow .

Ran
Ran,
Please don't take this the wrong way and your feedback is both welcome and very much appreciated by a great many people myself included.

Whilst I saw video noise with HD content, including with respect to Skyfall, I did not remember seeing any with the native 4K content that I put on. But given what you said I made a point of verifying this with respect to my private meeting with JVC this morning before the 1st demo of the day. I saw video noise when HD1080p was being fed to the projector, but no video noise with respect to the native 4K content that I put on wherein I ensured that native 4K was being fed to the projector. And as mentioned, I discovered that the OPPO had been set to output as HD 1080p...

If you had been able to join me this morning we would not be having this conversation.

By the way, I took a professional photography photo of the native 4K Quick Brown Fox test pattern which I will post later, and you can clearly see there is absolutely zero video noise... as does the photos that I took yesterday.

When you visit again tomorrow hopefully Michael will be able to show you this


Last edited by ARROW-AV; 09-01-2018 at 09:36 AM.
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post #1649 of 13653 Old 09-01-2018, 05:08 AM
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Originally Posted by markmon1 View Post
Test that theory you have on manual mode iris doing something on fade-to-black. I think it might do something then and only then. When I was testing dynamic iris off, the fade to blacks were suspiciously great still.
I'm not going to use the DI anymore. I find the image more has a higher dynamic range without it with the manual iris on -15.
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post #1650 of 13653 Old 09-01-2018, 05:14 AM
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Originally Posted by Highjinx View Post
I'm not going to use the DI anymore. I find the image more has a higher dynamic range without it with the manual iris on -15.
What size screen do you have? Like 80" or so? I cant tolerate under -5, it's just too dim. At under -10 the whites start turning tan.
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Video: JVC RS4500 135" screen in pure black room no light, htpc nvidia 1080ti.
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