NEW JVC RS3000/NX9 RS2000/N7 RS1000/N5 Native 4K Projectors Anticipation Thread - Page 56 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #1651 of 13653 Old 09-01-2018, 05:15 AM
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Arrow.

How about editing all your posts from the last 24 hours by saying that indeed you and I have seen video noise ON EVERY material which was shown during the demo and even talked about it during the demo ( or was I imagining our conversation as well..?!)


BUT somehow you where there today and there was no noise and no banding, which is a good and welcome thing being a jvc owner and loyal customer like I am..

The HD material was NOT shown during the demo at all, and was shown after the demo, for 5 minutes or so showing SkyFall, the same noise which was seen by both of us, was there as well.

And if we are going into details you might refresh your memory by the words of Michael in the same session, saying that ones needs to modify the electronics to completely eliminate any video noise.

I await your editing.

Ran
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post #1652 of 13653 Old 09-01-2018, 05:19 AM
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Originally Posted by RaceCarDriver View Post
So we have

JVC 590R / 440 = 34.0 lbs / 17 7/8 W x 18 9/16 D x 7 H / 1800 lumens / 40,000:1 Native
JVC 790R / 540 = 34.4 lbs / 17 7/8 W x 18 9/16 D x 7 H / 1900 lumens / 130,000:1 Native
JVC 990R / 640 = 34.4 lbs / 17 7/8 W x 18 9/16 D x 7 H / 2000 lumens / 160,000:1 Native

JVC RS4500K / Z1 = 82.67 lbs / 19 11/16 W x 28 3/4 D x 9 1/4 H / 3000 lumens /

JVC N5 = 43.6 lbs / 19 11/16 W x 19 1/2 D x 9 1/4 H / 1800 lumens / 40,000:1 Native
JVC N7 = 43.6 lbs / 19 11/16 W x 19 1/2 D x 9 1/4 H / 1900 lumens / 80,000:1 Native
JVC NX9 = 48.0lbs / 19 11/16 W x 20 3/8 D x 9 1/4 H / 2200 lumens / 100,000:1 Native

So new chassis are same width and height as the Z1, just a bit shorter. Looks to of gained 9 to 14 lbs over the 990R.

Wanting an NX9..
I have 8' ceilings and two rows of seating (meaning a raised platform for the second row). The new gen of JVC projectors just got quite a bit bigger, but most concerning for me is the height. I just measured my 770/520 with the Chief mount and I have exactly 6'4" of clearance without hitting your head on the projector on the second row.

I don't have many friends 6'4" or taller but I have lots of friends and family members who are over 6'1" so the size is definitely concerning to me. My Chief mount only comes down 4" from the ceiling so there's not much flexibility..

Dang these new JVC's are big. And heavy.
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post #1653 of 13653 Old 09-01-2018, 05:20 AM
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Originally Posted by markmon1 View Post
What size screen do you have? Like 80" or so? I cant tolerate under -5, it's just too dim. At under -10 the whites start turning tan.
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post #1654 of 13653 Old 09-01-2018, 05:25 AM
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Originally Posted by ack_bk View Post
I have 8' ceilings and two rows of seating (meaning a raised platform for the second row). The new gen of JVC projectors just got quite a bit bigger, but most concerning for me is the height. I just measured my 770/520 with the Chief mount and I have exactly 6'4" of clearance without hitting your head on the projector on the second row.

I don't have many friends 6'4" or taller but I have lots of friends and family members who are over 6'1" so the size is definitely concerning to me. My Chief mount only comes down 4" from the ceiling so there's not much flexibility..

Dang these new JVC's are big. And heavy.
You could always build a nice shelf mount like I have. See my avatar. My current shelf mount supports 2 projectors, but the bottom layer comes off real easy for when I only will have just one projector some day. This brings the projector up to like 1" from the ceiling sitting on the shelf. Super easy to swap projectors just slide old off shelf and slide new in. No fiddling with some mount, hoping holes line up, worrying about why it's hanging 4" down when it doesn't need to etc.

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post #1655 of 13653 Old 09-01-2018, 05:28 AM
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Originally Posted by ARROW-AV View Post
Sorry Ran,
You are mistaken. Michael will tell you this himself.
The problem is you've posted misinformation regarding this.
I had to definitively confirm this myself today and I have done so.
Michael isn't happy about this by the way...
Then I guess Michael should have made sure his company's demo was setup correctly. It's not Ran's fault that JVC screwed up their demo and Ran posted his observations of it.
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post #1656 of 13653 Old 09-01-2018, 05:36 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Ran View Post
Arrow.

How about editing all your posts from the last 24 hours by saying that indeed you and I have seen video noise ON EVERY material which was shown during the demo and even talked about it during the demo ( or was I imagining our conversation as well..?!)


BUT somehow you where there today and there was no noise and no banding, which is a good and welcome thing being a jvc owner and loyal customer like I am..

The HD material was NOT shown during the demo at all, and was shown after the demo, for 5 minutes or so showing SkyFall, the same noise which was seen by both of us, was there as well.

And if we are going into details you might refresh your memory by the words of Michael in the same session, saying that ones needs to modify the electronics to completely eliminate any video noise.

I await your editing.

Ran
I have never said there is not any banding. In fact you will note I myself reported the posterization.

And yes I have already said there was video noise, but as I have already stated I did not see this with the native 4K content that I put on yesterday, nor today.

.
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post #1657 of 13653 Old 09-01-2018, 05:39 AM
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Originally Posted by ARROW-AV View Post
I have never said there is not any banding. In fact you will note I myself reported the posterization.

And yes I have already said there was video noise, but as I have already stated I did not see this with the native 4K content that I put on yesterday, nor today.

.
Hello Nigel,

when will you publish your first impressions about this the SONY VW870 at IFA? It’s better than the new NX9 and the older Z1 from jvc?

Thanks a lot! :-)

AB
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post #1658 of 13653 Old 09-01-2018, 05:41 AM
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post #1659 of 13653 Old 09-01-2018, 05:44 AM
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Originally Posted by markmon1 View Post
There's just no way this is going to make any difference. I remember the first 4K eshift projector and the feature was just awful. It did nothing to sharpen the picture. In my opinion, JVC's internal upscaler has always been super worthless. It's just not one of the things they do well. If you're interested in the NX9, you should just assume eshift 8k doesnt exist.
Ok I got it probably not the best thing but have you been able to see it? Maybe it does improve the picture or why else would they put it.. I can't see how they will add this knowing their cost will go up...
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post #1660 of 13653 Old 09-01-2018, 05:45 AM
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Originally Posted by Highjinx View Post
The skepticism come from the basis that the chip used is basically the same chip they are using in the RS4500. For JVC to say in simple terms how they did it, is no big deal, they don't have to go into detail, just a general breakdown would be fine. Once the projector is on the market, other manufacturers can purchase a sample or two and dissect the heck out of it.

However if the native contrast figure is arrived at using a different method than say how the previous generation is measured, then it would be good to know. The previous gen's top two models have a lamp iris that works in conjunction with a manual iris and a lens DI that works independently, except it's max aperture is linked to the manual iris's setting. Sure the lens DI's minimum aperture is the same as the previous gen as stated, but is the lamp aperture now dynamic as well, closing down more in low APL scenes unlike the previous generation, reflecting the much higher apparent end result in this case?

At the end of the day, figure aside, it's the viewing experience that counts and I'm sure that's stellar. It's curiosity I guess, native contrast wise, are we comparing apples methods of function and measuring, with apples methods of function and measuring?

We are bound to find out sooner or later.
Sure, in about three months another projector manufacturer could purchase one and start taking apart to see how it ticks, but you are asking JVC to give give them a road map and a three month head start. Only a fool would do that.

As for different measuring method, I would be very surprised, because that would not help JVC's reputation. Now if they were not hitting good numbers, then I think JVC would just do like the other manufacturers that do not have good native numbers, they would just not list native in the specs, only dynamic contrast. Besides, JVC knows the truth will be out as soon as someone like Kris or Arrow reviews the projector. So what good would it do to try and trick buyers, because the numbers will be out, within a week or two of first shipment.

JVC let Ran and Arrow show test patterns on a preproduction unit at a show, does that sound like a company that is trying to hide and trick people? I guess it is in the way that you look at people. I will give JVC the benefit of the doubt, based on their past performance in the area of contrast performance and specification.

Added
You mentioned that the compitition can just take one apart and figure out what JVC is doing. Well the compitition has had years to be able to do this and it has not happened yet, so either they do not care or they need a road map also.

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post #1661 of 13653 Old 09-01-2018, 05:58 AM
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Originally Posted by markmon1 View Post
You could always build a nice shelf mount like I have. See my avatar. My current shelf mount supports 2 projectors, but the bottom layer comes off real easy for when I only will have just one projector some day. This brings the projector up to like 1" from the ceiling sitting on the shelf. Super easy to swap projectors just slide old off shelf and slide new in. No fiddling with some mount, hoping holes line up, worrying about why it's hanging 4" down when it doesn't need to etc.
Great point and something I could easily do. Where there is a will there is a way! I won't be ready to buy for a few more years but I doubt JVC will be shrinking the size.
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post #1662 of 13653 Old 09-01-2018, 06:02 AM
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Originally Posted by ARROW-AV View Post
UPDATE:

I just had my own private meeting with JVC and the main technical guy was there.

Regarding the lens on the N5 and N7, the reality is that the lens is the same lens but which has been improved. In other words, JVC took the existing lens design and have made some improvements. Therefore, it is neither the same lens nor completely new, but is definitely better as compared with the lens on the existing eshift range
Arrow, I appreciate what you've done, reporting your observations and all, but I'm utterly confused by your statement about the lens. It doesn't make sense to me. It's either different or it isn't. If it's improved, it is not the same. If it hasn't been, then it is the same. Am I missing something here?
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post #1663 of 13653 Old 09-01-2018, 06:03 AM
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@ARROW-AV , glad to hear 4K input is supposed to be noise free, that's certainly good news!

Have you had a chance to verify if the ANSI contrast improvements apply to the N5 and N7, too? I think that's the most important open question atm, at least in my book. Thanks!
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post #1664 of 13653 Old 09-01-2018, 06:13 AM
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Originally Posted by jorgebetancourt View Post
Ok I got it probably not the best thing but have you been able to see it? Maybe it does improve the picture or why else would they put it.. I can't see how they will add this knowing their cost will go up...
Mainly marketing. Probably because they think it’ll be useful next year when they have capability for 8k input and it’s a great marketing thing right now. And they already had the technology to do eshift in general so probably wasn’t much effort. The extra perception, even if it does nothing, probably helps them explain the $10k price tag over the N7.
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post #1665 of 13653 Old 09-01-2018, 06:17 AM
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Originally Posted by malba2366 View Post
Can anyone else confirm this pricing. Forbes has the higher pricing, but other sites show 5500/8000 Euros for the N5/N7. If this is true, the pricing is very ambitious, on the N5/7...the N5 comes un 1500 euros over Sony and the N7 500 euros over Sony. I don't see them doing so well with the average customer with that pricing, combined with Sony's better brand perception.
N5 vs 270
1,800 lumens vs 1,500 lumens
40,000:1 vs 16,000:1
Lens memory vs no lens memory

N7 vs 570
1,900 lumens vs 1,800 lumens
80,000:1 vs 16,000:1
DCI color space vs 87% of DCI color space

NX9 vs 885
2,200 lumens vs 2,000 lumens
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Great lens vs good lens

Clearly the advantage is with JVC, but I do agree with you that the Sony name carries weight with Joe Public.
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post #1666 of 13653 Old 09-01-2018, 06:22 AM
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Originally Posted by markmon1 View Post
Mainly marketing. Probably because they think it’ll be useful next year when they have capability for 8k input and it’s a great marketing thing right now. And they already had the technology to do eshift in general so probably wasn’t much effort. The extra perception, even if it does nothing, probably helps them explain the $10k price tag over the N7.
I completely see the marketing thing.. but I think lots of costumes will be upset if they pay 10k extra for something that does nothing.. If I had to guess I bet it does something unless you already so it and saw that it does nothing..

I have some hope.. if u do see it please let us know..

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post #1667 of 13653 Old 09-01-2018, 06:29 AM
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Originally Posted by enricoclaudio View Post
Not only that. People used to complaint A LOT about noisy e-shift. Well guess what, e-shift is gone for good so no more e-shift noise. People used to complaint about high lag time when switching inputs, well guess what, time was reduced by half. People used to complaint about non been 4K native, well guess what, now you have 4K native. People used to complaint about bad HDR implementation, well guess what now you have Auto Tone Mapping function. People used to complaint about 50% lost of luminance due to DCI-P3 filter, well guess what, luminance reduction when DCI-P3 filter is used is less with the new models. Now the new complaint is high prices, well guess what, improvements cost $$$, so people, instead of complaining just enjoy the good news. Just my 2 cents!!!
Well, let's not get carried away now. Eshift still exists in the form of shifted 8K. Half the lag time doesn't translate into record-breaking sync. time. And the increase in lumenance is still to be measured on calibration. Still, let's not confuse having the ultimate remedies for absence of an excellent effort. JVC has truly been responsive here to be sure ... showing great effort.

You know what...Eshift re 8K could have been equipped in the N5 and N7, but likely not so due to lens tolerances.

I recall going through units, from the lens of the X7xx series to the X990 and it was a huge difference, literally, with the X9xx showing much better precision. Is the same lens as was in the X7xx series going into the N7... I wonder?
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post #1668 of 13653 Old 09-01-2018, 06:44 AM
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Originally Posted by ARROW-AV View Post
Ran,
Please don't take this the wrong way and your feedback is both welcome and very much appreciated by a great many people myself included.

Whilst I saw video noise with HD content I did not remember seeing any with the native 4K content that I put on. But given what you said I made a point of verifying this with respect to my private meeting with JVC this morning before the 1st demo of the day.

Michael raised the matter regarding you posting about the video noise with native 4K content and even said (and I quote) "What video noise?" To be specific he said he's not happy about this being posted because it doesn't exist.

Like I said if you had been able to join me this morning we would not be having this conversation.

By the way, I took a professional photography photo of the native 4K Quick Brown Fox test pattern which I will post later, and you can clearly see there is absolutely zero video noise.

When you visit again tomorrow Michael will be able to show you this.
.
Hey Arrow no offense but let's keep our critical eye and don't get swept up in a happy news show that JVC would evidently love to see.

I'd rather us be wrong and them having a triple check on this feedback, then them trying to convince us and ignoring a potential issue. Perhaps the demo he gave you later had different settings that made the noise go away. Let Michael be unhappy, it's his job to get a faultless product out, so he should learn to take the criticsm and use it constructively.

The fact that Ran mentioned this, also means the demo wasn't properly carried out. If they had a Sony running there to compare with, or at least the Z1, we could've actually seen what might be source problem or something else. However I'm sure there is something going on here, considering Ran seems to be very convinced.

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post #1669 of 13653 Old 09-01-2018, 06:49 AM
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ArrowAV said the N5/7 lenses are the same as previous years, with some updates. Not completely new.

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post #1670 of 13653 Old 09-01-2018, 06:54 AM
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Originally Posted by madshi View Post
As someone else already suggested (I don't remember who), the term "wire gate" could be a mistranslation. Texts have been translated from Janapese to all kinds of other languages and then from there to English etc. The correct translation could be "wire grid" instead of "wire gate", which is the same JVC has always used.

Of course this is only a guess/possibility. It's also possible they're using new tech, but we don't know for sure right now.


We got an improvement which is smaller than 10x. It's absolutely great, of course! But a sequential panel arrangement with a 4th panel for light level modulation would actually multiply performance. So instead of "15k : 1" native contrast we'd get something like "225 million : 1" contrast. Furthermore, a 4th panel would cost quite a bit of lumens output. Neither of which is the case here, so JVC is definitely not using a 4th panel.
It could indeed be mis-translation.

At the panel level I've seen some kind of interesting magic happen in my 7900/540 (and previous X3/X30) that I don't fully understand though and I wonder if this behaviour has somehow been extended and hence JVC thought it merited mention in the blurb.

If you watch really carefully going from the standard menus to the lens control menus (eg bring up the focus screen) for a fraction of a second without the iris opening or lamp output changing there is a large raising of the black floor (and a change of colour cast). It is like something is temporarily turned off which lets a lot more light through. I wonder if somehow whatever this is that can clearly be enabled and disabled has been enhanced or somehow improved and / or become zonal. Have you observed this happen and do you know what it is?

On the sequential panel arrangement; I'm doubtful there is anything like that (though as I say the section in that video did seem a bit out of place); but on the subject of the multiplier I guess it must depend on how dark it can get; there could be reasons why you'd limit how dark it goes if the trade-offs were undesireable. I've seen an example device like this that had tragic ANSI contrast and so perhaps not allowing the 4th panel to get all the way black improves that.
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post #1671 of 13653 Old 09-01-2018, 06:56 AM
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Originally Posted by bobof View Post
There are other tricks that could be being employed which might be really interesting. This wire gate array isn't understood yet; it is possible this is somehow addressable in zones or areas (think local area dimming on an LCD). As we know such systems don't give all the performance that you might expect given numbers. We have an understanding at the moment of what these numbers mean for a projection image for a "standard" projection setup.

There was a really interesting section at the end of the JVC interview Scott did a while ago where they were discussing arrangements involving a 4th panel or device for light level modulation. That section of the video was quite out of place as it was a discussion of something that wasn't in JVC (or any other HT projector). Why bring it up?

In any case I'm sure the performance will be very good, but I am sceptical of the numbers as they clearly don't tell the full story. Giving the example of my bright corners - over how much screen area can you expect the headline number? Are the existing relationships between throw and iris settings similar, or does contrast fall off in a different way throughout the range of those adjustments?

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And it never will be. It was a translation thing. It is a wire grid polarizer.
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post #1672 of 13653 Old 09-01-2018, 07:03 AM
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Originally Posted by RaceCarDriver View Post
ArrowAV said the N5/7 lenses are the same as previous years, with some updates. Not completely new.
Right, so does that mean just the same lens assembly? Then where are the changes? And what is the glass used ...the one in the entry and mid range series: X5xx/X7xx/RS4xx/RS5xx ?

Hopefully, he can clarify this point.
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post #1673 of 13653 Old 09-01-2018, 07:04 AM
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Originally Posted by Applemike68 View Post
Thanks. I was waiting for someone to do the size calcs 👍. I wonder if our existing chief mounts will work. I’m in on the N7. When will we get an avs preorder?
You use the same mount for the new projectors.
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post #1674 of 13653 Old 09-01-2018, 07:10 AM
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Do these have a low latency game mode - one that actually is low latency?
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post #1675 of 13653 Old 09-01-2018, 07:13 AM
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Originally Posted by Aztar35 View Post
Right, so does that mean just the same lens assembly? Then where are the changes? And what is the glass used ...the one in the entry and mid range series: X5xx/X7xx/RS4xx/RS5xx ?

Hopefully, he can clarify this point.
Nothing that can be said about this would satisfy me honestly.

We'll have to wait for the actual reviews and comparison to see how well they stack up

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post #1676 of 13653 Old 09-01-2018, 07:13 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ballis View Post
Do these have a low latency game mode - one that actually is low latency?
Yes, this, has anyone actually asked this question yet?

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post #1677 of 13653 Old 09-01-2018, 07:19 AM
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NEW JVC DLA-NX9, DLA-N7, DLA N5 Native 4K Lamp-Based Projector Anticipation Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ballis View Post
Do these have a low latency game mode - one that actually is low latency?


The current units are around 25ms when fed a 4K signal. How low are you expecting these to get?
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Last edited by kaotikr1; 09-01-2018 at 07:29 AM.
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post #1678 of 13653 Old 09-01-2018, 07:29 AM
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Nice ! 25ms is good here!!!
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post #1679 of 13653 Old 09-01-2018, 07:34 AM
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Originally Posted by kaotikr1 View Post
The current units are around 25ms when fed a 4K signal. How low are you expecting these to get?
Current units are not the new units. Can't know for sure until someone just asks and get confirmation.

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post #1680 of 13653 Old 09-01-2018, 07:36 AM
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Originally Posted by christoffeldg View Post
Current units are not the new units. Can't know for sure until someone just asks and get confirmation.


We won’t get that confirmation. It’s always had to come from third party measurements. I’m hopeful that it’s the same as I use my HTPC for gaming so low input lag is key and I’m comfortable with the current lag.
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