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post #31 of 66 Old 09-03-2018, 12:24 PM
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Originally Posted by MMC57 View Post
I currently use a Marantz DLP 15-S1 1080P which has been a good unit over the years.

It was a while ago since I shopped for a projector .. 2007!... but as I recalled it seemed that DLP is better for fast motion then what JVC and SONY use.. is that true or are the projectors of today about the same for motion issues.

I would really like to upgrade but only if it will be an upgrade as it applies to my situation. I would prefer a Laser or HLD LED light source as bulbs just seem like technology from the past.

Really want to make sure if I go to a 4K projector it will be a significant improvement as I have in ceiling/wall HDMI cable issues to deal with as I did not install a conduit when I rework my theater is 2007 as 1080P was the king and my HDMI 1.3B was the top of the heap... big mistake not to run a conduit in the drywall ceiling!

If I upgrade my projector I will install the Celerity UFO Optical cables which will presently do HDMI 2.0 but with their inter changeable ends will be easily upgraded to HDMI 2.1.

http://celeritytek.com/product-ufo.html
You can get some 4k for Sports stuff (not that much), but some is available via streaming.
It will become more readily available probably in the next 1-3 years as the streaming wars continue to take down the cable companies.

Keep in mind though, if you watch movies or do gaming, I'd probably pick a Sony or JVC instead.

You could consider the Optoma UHZ-65 if Sports is your main goal.

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post #32 of 66 Old 09-03-2018, 12:27 PM
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"Dark Scenes" are actually more of an issue with 1080p SDR material than 4K HDR material which most people are buying a projector for these days. Most dark scenes in HDR grades have at least some bright highlights, which brings up the overall APL and makes ultra low APL performance less important. Again, though, this user has a DLP projector so they know what DLP looks like. No surprises.
I don't agree about HDR making native contrast unimportant, it is the opposite because it causes a raised black level when using a higher peak white.
Most movies still use near the same mastered gamma in the darkest of scenes when talking HDR, there are a few movies that have poor HDR mastering, but it is not the norm...

People are starting to abandon using projectors for native tone mapping on any of the projectors at this point, they are using the new Panasonic UB820 or a few are using MadVR...
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post #33 of 66 Old 09-03-2018, 12:29 PM
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Maybe that is why one of our forum users recently sold their JVC X990 in favor of an Optoma UHZ65? Tired of terrible JVC tonemapping and the UHZ65 simply looked more impressive and contrasty with some of the recent HDR grades. Hard to stay on board with annoying lamps once you've lived with an LED/laser projector for any amount of time.
As I noted, it's a very very slim minority that would pick a DLP.
I agree the Optoma UHZ-65 is a good choice IF a person isn't RBE sensitive and isn't going for good blacks.
However, the Benq's have some real serious issues and I would wait for some further reviews before even considering.

That said, if doing gaming or movies, the lower contrast would sink the Optoma or Benq for most people.

There are some issues still with the Optoma, like the slower color wheel which causes RBE.
Besides the low contrast, the color wheel would kill it for me (and many).

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post #34 of 66 Old 09-03-2018, 12:31 PM
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I don't agree about HDR making native contrast unimportant, it is the opposite because it causes a raised black level when using a higher peak white.
Most movies still use near the same mastered gamma in the darkest of scenes when talking HDR, there are a few movies that have poor HDR mastering, but it is not the norm...
Well the problem is your eye actually doesn't see the blacker blacks when there is a high peak white - they can be there but it doesn't actually matter whether they are or not. When there are very bright elements in a scene your eye's iris closes down and your brain perceives lighter blacks as darker than they actually are. Your eye/brain basically has a builtin contrast limiter, so to speak, when it comes to bright/dark contrast. There are plenty of optical illusions and educational papers that illustrate this phenomenon.

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People are starting to abandon using projectors for native tone mapping on any of the projectors at this point, they are using the new Panasonic UB820 or a few are using MadVR...
People only need to abandon the projectors native tone mapping when it is borderline unusable like JVC's.
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post #35 of 66 Old 09-03-2018, 12:35 PM
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Well the problem is your eye actually doesn't see the blacker blacks when there is a high peak white - they can be there but it doesn't actually matter whether they are or not. When there are very bright elements in a scene your eye's iris closes down and your brain perceives lighter blacks as darker than they actually are. Your eye/brain basically has a builtin contrast limiter, so to speak, when it comes to bright/dark contrast. There are plenty of optical illusions and educational papers that illustrate this phenomenon.
We all know this, but this has almost nothing to do with the issue, since what you speak of would be dark scenes with a lot of white in them.
Dark scenes in movies in HDR are not ALL THAT different than SDR in most cases...

Most dark scenes in movies are still LOW APL, HDR or SDR.

This imaginary issue of dark scenes suddenly having a lot more peak white because of HDR (ok)...

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post #36 of 66 Old 09-03-2018, 12:36 PM
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People only need to abandon the projectors native tone mapping when it is borderline unusable like JVC's.
Not true, the tone mapping on all devices has been insufficient because of the very nature of tone mapping.
Panasonic had to custom design a whole bunch of routines just to do this, and MadVR is still in beta.

As far as projectors doing the tone mapping, none of them are all that great at it.
The JVC's may be one of the worst (as well as Epson), but it doesn't make that much difference since most people should not use the PJ to do it anyhow.
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post #37 of 66 Old 09-03-2018, 12:40 PM
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As I noted, it's a very very slim minority that would pick a DLP.
I agree the Optoma UHZ-65 is a good choice IF a person isn't RBE sensitive and isn't going for good blacks.
However, the Benq's have some real serious issues and I would wait for some further reviews before even considering.

That said, if doing gaming or movies, the lower contrast would sink the Optoma or Benq for most people.

There are some issues still with the Optoma, like the slower color wheel which causes RBE.
Besides the low contrast, the color wheel would kill it for me (and many).
Nah, this is all FUD frankly. The BenQ X12000 had no serious issues other than lack of critical features which limited its ultimate performance, its native contrast was actually higher than the UHZ65. The X12000H also has no color wheel and RBE is not an issue with the fast cycling LEDs in latest X12000 firmware. ANSI contrast is higher with the DLPs which is a big benefit for HDR, if you were stuck on SDR 1080p maybe you'd have more of a case.


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We all know this, but this has almost nothing to do with the issue, since what you speak of would be dark scenes with a lot of white in them.
Dark scenes in movies in HDR are not ALL THAT different than SDR in most cases...

Most dark scenes in movies are still LOW APL, HDR or SDR.

This imaginary issue of dark scenes suddenly having a lot more peak white because of HDR (ok)…
Nope its a fact, for instance in THE DARK KNIGHT, there is massive fluctuation in APL in the SDR grades in the scene where Harvey Dent and Rachel are tied up and it goes back and forth between light and dark. In the HDR grades Rachel's previously very low APL scenes are no longer very low APL due to the bright highlights, requiring less dynamic dimming and also bringing up the perception of dark blacks in the scene. Most HDR grades of recent movies are like this. Your eye cannot see very black blacks at some point when there is a significant amount of white on the screen, its just the way the brain works and nothing one can do to change that.

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Not true, the tone mapping on all devices has been insufficient because of the very nature of tone mapping. Panasonic had to custom design a whole bunch of routines just to do this, and MadVR is still in beta. As far as projectors doing the tone mapping, none of them are all that great at it.
The tone mapping on the DLP 4Ks has been fine. The tonemapping on the JVCs is a nightmare, I have no idea why it is so bad - hope they improve it for users sake so they aren't forced into using one particular brand Blu-ray player to make their projector look decent with HDR. Oh and what happens with game consoles, 4k streaming boxes, etc that don't have any special tonemapping like the UB820 - guess you are stuck with the JVC's terrible tonemapping there eh?

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post #38 of 66 Old 09-03-2018, 12:43 PM
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Nope its a fact, for instance in THE DARK KNIGHT, there is massive fluctuation in APL in the SDR grades when Harvey Dent and Rachel are tied up. In the HDR grades Rachel's previously very low APL scenes are no longer very low APL due to the bright highlights, requiring less dynamic dimming and also bringing up the perception of dark blacks in the scene. Most HDR grades of recent movies are like this.

The tone mapping on the DLP 4Ks has been fine. The tonemapping on the JVCs is a nightmare, I have no idea why it is so bad - hope they improve it for users sake so they aren't forced into using one particular brand Blu-ray player to make their projector look decent with HDR. Oh and what happens with game consoles that don't have any special tonemapping like the UB820 - guess you are stuck with the JVC's terrible tonemapping there eh?
It's not a fact, you are cherry picking certain movies, and HDR mastering making ANSI more important is a freaking JOKE for dark scenes.

There have been numerous shootouts, and no-one but you (or a handful of the misinformed) is going to try to claim that a DLP can keep up with an LCOS in dark scenes.
It does not matter if it is HDR or not.

I don't agree the tone mapping has been good on DLP's, I have seen plenty of reviews that say the exact opposite.
That said, I don't know about every single specific model # and the exact amount of tone mapping capability, but this is reaching since the solution is available anyhow.
JVC has also revised the tone mapping, but again it seems the Panasonic UB820 is far ahead of ALL projectors when it comes to tone mapping.
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post #39 of 66 Old 09-03-2018, 12:48 PM
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It's not a fact, you are cherry picking certain movies, and HDR mastering making ANSI more important is a freaking JOKE for dark scenes.
Nope, you are conflating two different things. ANSI becomes more important during intense HDR scenes (not low APL HDR scenes) when there is a large amount of bright and dark on the screen at once. You might see this often in a comic book adaption or transformers movie frequently, for instance.

In addition to that, very low APL scenes are actually less common with HDR grades than SDR grades - generally the HDR grades of modern films will add bright highlights to low APL scenes for the expected HDR "look" (such as my Dark Knight example) which brings up the overall APL and hence increases our perception of dark black even when its not there due to the peak white on screen. Again, this is a function of your eye/brain, nothing to do with ANSI contrast.

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There have been numerous shootouts, and no-one but you (or a handful of the misinformed) is going to try to claim that a DLP can keep up with an LCOS in dark scenes.
It does not matter if it is HDR or not.
I'm not saying it will necessarily match a LCOS in dark scenes, but it may be good enough ,and it may outperform an LCOS in bright scenes. The functionality improvements of LED/Laser may be more important than having the absolute blackest blacks.

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I don't agree the tone mapping has been good on DLP's, I have seen plenty of reviews that say the exact opposite.
Frankly some of the "pro" reviews have been a joke lately, so I'm not surprised.
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post #40 of 66 Old 09-03-2018, 12:52 PM
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Nah, this is all FUD frankly. The BenQ X12000 had no serious issues other than lack of critical features which limited its ultimate performance, its native contrast was actually higher than the UHZ65. The X12000H also has no color wheel and RBE is not an issue with the fast cycling LEDs in latest X12000 firmware. ANSI contrast is higher with the DLPs which is a big benefit for HDR, if you were stuck on SDR 1080p maybe you'd have more of a case.
Gaming in HDR is a bust and the Optoma has high gaming lag so another reason to rule out the Optoma.
I don't know what the Benq's gaming lag is.

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post #41 of 66 Old 09-03-2018, 12:53 PM
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Nope, you are conflating two different things. ANSI becomes more important during intense HDR scenes (not low APL HDR scenes) when there is a large amount of bright and dark on the screen at once. You might see this often in a comic book adaption or transformers movie frequently, for instance.
I don't need a lesson on ANSI contrast, I've been in this forum since 2006 and was participating and one of the testers of ANSI contrast.
I have had 4 projectors setup simultaneously in a perfect room and tested the limits of ANSI contrast. We spent months testing these theories.

In reality, you have to hunt down very specific scenes to get a benefit from ANSI. Also, you need an almost perfectly setup room to see above 200:1 ANSI contrast, the room robs it all back.

For the very few people who have a perfect enough room (and are wearing black clothes), then even then, you still have to hunt down certain scenes to find the benefit.

ANSI contrast is self polluting, you are just wrong, it is a bad pattern and should have never become a standard for measuring contrast.

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post #42 of 66 Old 09-03-2018, 12:55 PM
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Well the problem is your eye actually doesn't see the blacker blacks when there is a high peak white - they can be there but it doesn't actually matter whether they are or not. When there are very bright elements in a scene your eye's iris closes down and your brain perceives lighter blacks as darker than they actually are. Your eye/brain basically has a builtin contrast limiter, so to speak, when it comes to bright/dark contrast. There are plenty of optical illusions and educational papers that illustrate this phenomenon.



People only need to abandon the projectors native tone mapping when it is borderline unusable like JVC's.
Hi Guys

Thanks for the "spirited" comments.

I saw a demo of the Optoma UHZ-65 the other day and the image from a UHD bluray as the source was quite impressive.

However the dealer did not have cable or satellite so I was unable to see a demo for network HD (720 P or 1080i) content and how the projector would handle that which is very important to me.

I understand the issues people have with contrast and black but unless you have two projectors side by side most people are not viewing this and saying ... "the black on the raiders uniform is not black enough" however if there is motion blur then you do not need a side by side.... you see it and it is a problem.

The Marantz has never been a problem with RBE for me or anyone else that has watched it.

I understand the HT9060 is not out yet and will wait until reviews are out on this model as it seems to have more features then the previous model.

Does the HT9060 still require a color wheel?

I am in no rush as I intend to replace my AV receiver at the same time and would like to have an AV receiver that has HDMI 2.1 and not many choices right now.

Just seems to me that a solid state light source on a 4K projector makes sense I like the 3,000 lumens for the UHZ-65 vs 2,200 Lumens for the HT9060 but at the end of the day it is how the projector performs.

The Optoma UHZ65 has a good price point but the HT9060 has more features and horizontal lens shift over the UHZ65 and would still be in the budget.

I need the projector that is best for fast moving sports and hopefully has a bright solid state light source... not going to buy another bulb projector.

Thanks for all the comments and I will keep watching as more projectors are released.
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post #43 of 66 Old 09-03-2018, 12:57 PM
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Gaming in HDR is a bust and the Optoma has high gaming lag so another reason to rule out the Optoma.
I don't know what the Benq's gaming lag is.
We won't know until it is released, of course. This new BenQ appears to have some new hardware in it. There have been past 4K DLPs with 40ms input lag like the UHD60, which is fine for gaming. Will have to wait and see what BenQ does on the processing in the new model.

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don't need a lesson on ANSI contrast, I've been in this forum since 2006 and was participating and one of the testers of ANSI contrast.
I have had 4 projectors setup simultaneously in a perfect room and tested the limits of ANSI contrast.

ANSI contrast is self polluting, you are just wrong, it is a bad pattern and should have never become a standard for measuring contrast.

I am not sure what you are trying to say, that ANSI contrast isn't measurable? It is very much measurable as you know so I am not sure what you are trying to say. ANSI contrast pattern is an extreme case, BUT HDR grades can push the limits with those same types of extreme cases so it has actually become important now IMO.
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post #44 of 66 Old 09-03-2018, 12:58 PM
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Hi Guys

Thanks for the "spirited" comments.

I saw a demo of the Optoma UHZ-65 the other day and the image from a UHD bluray as the source was quite impressive.

However the dealer did not have cable or satellite so I was unable to see a demo for network HD (720 P or 1080i) content and how the projector would handle that which is very important to me.

I understand the issues people have with contrast and black but unless you have two projectors side by side most people are not viewing this and saying ... "the black on the raiders uniform is not black enough" however if there is motion blur then you do not need a side by side.... you see it and it is a problem.

The Marantz has never been a problem with RBE for me or anyone else that has watched it.
No one knows about the motion issues of each projector in their entirety unfortunately, but the old DLP's like the ones you have are superb in native motion and unmatched.
Unfortunately, most of the newer DLP's do not have the best motion resolution, but it's unknown to which ones actually do.

The older DLP's (Runco and Marantz) often had double or triple the motion resolution of the newer DLP's.

For sports, you might really consider Sony, as they have the Reality Creation + the best frame interpolation.
I am not sure if you like watching Sports with frame interpolation on or not.

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post #45 of 66 Old 09-03-2018, 12:59 PM
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Hi Guys

Thanks for the "spirited" comments.

I saw a demo of the Optoma UHZ-65 the other day and the image from a UHD bluray as the source was quite impressive.

However the dealer did not have cable or satellite so I was unable to see a demo for network HD (720 P or 1080i) content and how the projector would handle that which is very important to me.

I understand the issues people have with contrast and black but unless you have two projectors side by side most people are not viewing this and saying ... "the black on the raiders uniform is not black enough" however if there is motion blur then you do not need a side by side.... you see it and it is a problem.

The Marantz has never been a problem with RBE for me or anyone else that has watched it.

I understand the HT9060 is not out yet and will wait until reviews are out on this model as it seems to have more features then the previous model.

Does the HT9060 still require a color wheel?

I am in no rush as I intend to replace my AV receiver at the same time and would like to have an AV receiver that has HDMI 2.1 and not many choices right now.

Just seems to me that a solid state light source on a 4K projector makes sense I like the 3,000 lumens for the UHZ-65 vs 2,200 Lumens for the HT9060 but at the end of the day it is how the projector performs.

The Optoma UHZ65 has a good price point but the HT9060 has more features and horizontal lens shift over the UHZ65 and would still be in the budget.

I need the projector that is best for fast moving sports and hopefully has a bright solid state light source... not going to buy another bulb projector.

Thanks for all the comments and I will keep watching as more projectors are released.
The HT9060 has no color wheel and the platform it is based on with latest firmware now has very fast cycling LEDs (faster than color wheel) making RBE a non-issue. The other benefit of the HT9060 is the LEDs can reach 98% DCI-P3 instead of the 87% of the UHZ65. Good insight on the black levels and this is exactly what I am talking about, our eyes/brains are actually programmed to adapt to contrast levels and this is only not the case on very very dark scenes with no peak white highlights.
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As far as processing and scaling and 1080i, I would say the Sony with RC and FI is your best bet.

If you really don't care about contrast and will do no gaming, then you might prefer a DLP over the Sony for Sports.

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The tone mapping on the DLP 4Ks has been fine. The tonemapping on the JVCs is a nightmare, I have no idea why it is so bad - hope they improve it for users sake so they aren't forced into using one particular brand Blu-ray player to make their projector look decent with HDR. Oh and what happens with game consoles, 4k streaming boxes, etc that don't have any special tonemapping like the UB820 - guess you are stuck with the JVC's terrible tonemapping there eh?
There is nothing wrong with the current model's tone mapping, why is JVC the only target? Folks are using 5K VP's on the 25K laser Sony's because it has better tone mapping than what is built in. This is why we use custom curves, it's provides more fine tuning and looks remarkable when set up correctly. Tuning HDR is more difficult than standard SDR content.

When the BQ is released, there is a good chance that HTPC MadVR, a custom curve or a player like the 820 will exceed it's built in TM capabilities.

The new JVC auto mapping could be as brilliant as it is with the UB820, all the manufacturers are just starting to figure this out. Also some folks with high nit output TV's are still using TM devices since the internal curves usually aren't the best.


I see plenty of low APL content in about ~100 different UHD HDR movies I have here. I would have to see for myself if the BQ can handle this somehow with it's native limitations. We recently watched Infinity War UHD that has many low APL scenes and they looked excellent on the JVC.
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post #48 of 66 Old 09-03-2018, 01:09 PM
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No one knows about the motion issues of each projector in their entirety unfortunately, but the old DLP's like the ones you have are superb in native motion and unmatched.
Unfortunately, most of the newer DLP's do not have the best motion resolution, but it's unknown to which ones actually do.

The older DLP's (Runco and Marantz) often had double or triple the motion resolution of the newer DLP's.

For sports, you might really consider Sony, as they have the Reality Creation + the best frame interpolation.
I am not sure if you like watching Sports with frame interpolation on or not.
This is why I need to see ANY projector operating with the same source I will be using to see what it looks like.

If these newer projectors are a "step backwards" in regards to motion vs my existing Marantz then I will just stay with what I have for the time being.

I like what I like and when I see it I will know.... I still have two Pioneer Elite panels in my home and they still provide an outstanding image for sports and other HD content over cable... 50 inch in the family room and 60 inch in the master bedroom... different image then the Marantz but I enjoy them all.
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post #49 of 66 Old 09-03-2018, 01:14 PM
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The HT9060 has no color wheel and the platform it is based on with latest firmware now has very fast cycling LEDs (faster than color wheel) making RBE a non-issue. The other benefit of the HT9060 is the LEDs can reach 98% DCI-P3 instead of the 87% of the UHZ65. Good insight on the black levels and this is exactly what I am talking about, our eyes/brains are actually programmed to adapt to contrast levels and this is only not the case on very very dark scenes with no peak white highlights.
Thanks for confirming that the HT 9060 has no color wheel... seems to be a better design in you can eliminate moving parts.

The best projector for me will be one that provides a smooth natural look for fast sports without a lot of "processing"...

Once the HT9060 are available I will try and see a demo feeding it 720P and 1080i sports over cable or satellite.

Thanks for all the comments
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post #50 of 66 Old 09-03-2018, 01:16 PM
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You need to find a projector to test Frame Interpolation, if you like Sports with FI enabled, then motion resolution should not be an issue with newer projectors.
You may actually like FI better than your DLP's native motion (who knows).

Find a Sony (or Benq) demo somewhere and enable the FI (Motion Flow / CFI / Smooth Motion / CMD).
Try the lowest setting, you may actually like the Sony at its lowest setting.

I think you will be hard pressed to find a Benq demo anywhere, but who knows for certain, you can try.

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post #51 of 66 Old 09-03-2018, 01:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MMC57 View Post
Thanks for confirming that the HT 9060 has no color wheel... seems to be a better design in you can eliminate moving parts.

The best projector for me will be one that provides a smooth natural look for fast sports without a lot of "processing"...

Once the HT9060 are available I will try and see a demo feeding it 720P and 1080i sports over cable or satellite.

Thanks for all the comments
The HT9060 actually eliminates 2 wheels - it has no color wheel, but it also has no phosphor wheel. All the blue laser projectors (DLP & LCOS) require a phosphor wheel, but the HLD LED projectors do not. HT9060 also does not require a separate filter to achieve 98% P3 coverage, which is another moving part when placing some LCOS projectors in P3 mode. Additionally, HT9060 lacks a motorized lens, which although is a missing feature is also one less moving part to worry about breaking.

The only moving parts in the HT9060 are the fans and DMD mirrors, so this is pretty cool from a longterm reliability standpoint when combined with the 20,000hr until half brightness HLD LED light source. Theoretically it should have a very, very, very long lifespan (probably beyond 4K format's lifespan in most user's cases) before anything breaks or requires replacement due to bare minimum of moving parts and high duration light source, assuming no defective parts.

Last edited by Ruined; 09-03-2018 at 01:27 PM.
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post #52 of 66 Old 09-04-2018, 09:41 AM
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How about a reverse question? If your room is not completely covered by black velvet, should you pick a different projector than a JVC?
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post #53 of 66 Old 09-04-2018, 10:06 AM
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Originally Posted by cemo62 View Post
I dont think so.

Sony 270 is 4999 Euros with native contrast 16:000/1

JVC N5 is 6499 Euros. It says 40:000 native contrast but with measurements it is 14:000/16:000. (rs400-420 had those numbers) I know you will say it has a dynamic iris but jvc's dynamic iris works very agressive and it makes me crazy so I close it.

Sony have Reality creation, JVC have?

Motion is better with sony in older models. Lets see new models with both brand.

Both of them 18 gbps hdmi bandwith.

Generally sonys have more natural calm image but with new models of jvc i dont know what it will be.

Both of them have game mod for low input lag.

So why sony is in trouble?

Sorry for my English, I hope you understand me
One that 16,000:1 is a marketing spec, so go read reviews on what it actually is. Two, you are listing the JVC in its worst condition, iris open and at short throw. In that situation the JVC would be putting out several hundred more lumens than the Sony. So you would have to close down the manual iris to get it to put out the same amount of lumens as the Sony. Each click of the iris gains you native contrast. I would guess with the Sony and JVC brightness matched at the Sony's max light output, the JVC would have double the native contrast.

JVC has two iris choices, one less aggressive. You may find it a problem, but most people do use the dynamic iris.
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post #54 of 66 Old 09-04-2018, 10:07 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dweltman View Post
How about a reverse question? If your room is not completely covered by black velvet, should you pick a different projector than a JVC?
The higher contrast projector will be better in all rooms, but the difference will show up more, the better the room is.
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post #55 of 66 Old 09-04-2018, 02:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ruined View Post
The HT9060 actually eliminates 2 wheels - Additionally, HT9060 lacks a motorized lens, which although is a missing feature is also one less moving part to worry about breaking.
Any ideas about when we will see a 4K DLP with a motorized lens?
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post #56 of 66 Old 09-04-2018, 04:02 PM
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Originally Posted by Ruined View Post
Well the problem is your eye actually doesn't see the blacker blacks when there is a high peak white - they can be there but it doesn't actually matter whether they are or not. When there are very bright elements in a scene your eye's iris closes down and your brain perceives lighter blacks as darker than they actually are. Your eye/brain basically has a builtin contrast limiter, so to speak, when it comes to bright/dark contrast. There are plenty of optical illusions and educational papers that illustrate this phenomenon.



People only need to abandon the projectors native tone mapping when it is borderline unusable like JVC's.
Except the ADL level of movies is way lower than the ANSI test pattern of 50%. 99% of them are not even remotely close. Even the Art of Flight (snowboarding documentary) is only around 32%.
http://projectiondream.com/en/movie-...-measurements/
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post #57 of 66 Old 09-04-2018, 04:04 PM
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Originally Posted by coderguy View Post
Not true, the tone mapping on all devices has been insufficient because of the very nature of tone mapping.
Panasonic had to custom design a whole bunch of routines just to do this, and MadVR is still in beta.

As far as projectors doing the tone mapping, none of them are all that great at it.
The JVC's may be one of the worst (as well as Epson), but it doesn't make that much difference since most people should not use the PJ to do it anyhow.
From what I am seeing and hearing, you may need to change this statement to; "have the JVC do the tonemapping."
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post #58 of 66 Old 09-04-2018, 04:08 PM
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Originally Posted by coderguy View Post
It's not a fact, you are cherry picking certain movies, and HDR mastering making ANSI more important is a freaking JOKE for dark scenes.

There have been numerous shootouts, and no-one but you (or a handful of the misinformed) is going to try to claim that a DLP can keep up with an LCOS in dark scenes.
It does not matter if it is HDR or not.

I don't agree the tone mapping has been good on DLP's, I have seen plenty of reviews that say the exact opposite.
That said, I don't know about every single specific model # and the exact amount of tone mapping capability, but this is reaching since the solution is available anyhow.
JVC has also revised the tone mapping, but again it seems the Panasonic UB820 is far ahead of ALL projectors when it comes to tone mapping.
The jury is out on this one. JVC's new projectors are doing pretty much the same thing as the UB820.
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post #59 of 66 Old 09-04-2018, 04:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ruined View Post
We won't know until it is released, of course. This new BenQ appears to have some new hardware in it. There have been past 4K DLPs with 40ms input lag like the UHD60, which is fine for gaming. Will have to wait and see what BenQ does on the processing in the new model.

By coderguy:
ANSI contrast is self polluting, you are just wrong, it is a bad pattern and should have never become a standard for measuring contrast.



I am not sure what you are trying to say, that ANSI contrast isn't measurable? It is very much measurable as you know so I am not sure what you are trying to say. ANSI contrast pattern is an extreme case, BUT HDR grades can push the limits with those same types of extreme cases so it has actually become important now IMO.
Coderguy is correct. It is a poor test pattern to use. It is worst, worst case We rarely see that situation in a movie. This would be a better pattern (EBU 3325).
http://projectiondream.com/wp-conten...U-contrast.bmp
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post #60 of 66 Old 09-04-2018, 04:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ruined View Post
The HT9060 has no color wheel and the platform it is based on with latest firmware now has very fast cycling LEDs (faster than color wheel) making RBE a non-issue. The other benefit of the HT9060 is the LEDs can reach 98% DCI-P3 instead of the 87% of the UHZ65. Good insight on the black levels and this is exactly what I am talking about, our eyes/brains are actually programmed to adapt to contrast levels and this is only not the case on very very dark scenes with no peak white highlights.
The HT9060 is essentially the HT9050 with all the little things the HT9050 was missing. People would do well to wait for a review of the HT9060, before getting caught up in the hype. The HT9050 was the next coming, until reviewed by a reliable reviewer.
https://www.soundandvision.com/conte...ector-review-0
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