Time to retire The Quick Brown Fox for testing Projectors? - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #1 of 55 Old 09-11-2018, 04:42 PM - Thread Starter
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Time to retire The Quick Brown Fox for testing Projectors?

I was experimenting with my X9900/RS640 with the QBF pattern in all it's glorious color. Non e-shift and e-shift enabled. It was a bit of a mess as we have noticed.

I thought I'd investigate further, so I created a different pattern, yellow on black with simple horizontal, vertical and diagonal lines, upon projecting this on the screen, I noticed that some of the vertical yellow lines were now white, in certain areas. I put this down to mis-convergence.

I decided to strip the color from the QBF patterns to a simple greyscale. Lo and behold! Perfect(near)rendition of the grayscale images. I was blown away to say the least. The mess that is created IMO with a projector with the color test, is due to the colors used and how a projector superimposes the 3 primary colors.

IMO this color test image should not be used on projectors. Just flat panel where the subpixels reside side by side.

Below is a dropbox link of the color as well as the B&W images. All are pixel perfect. Test them yourselves, it's quite a revelation how bad projectors deal with that color pattern. The color handling error is exacerbated when using e-shift, but note the pixels are doubled up nicely, almost perfectly, in the B&W images.

https://www.dropbox.com/sh/pulwi15zc...XVF76_4Ma?dl=0

Please test with and without eshift. Do post your results and thoughts.

Thanks.
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post #2 of 55 Old 09-11-2018, 05:53 PM
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You missed the point of the test.

Why was it a mess?

You need to view that quick brown fox image in perfect 4:4:4 chroma.

Black and white is only testing a small aspect of the performance. That will mask many of the artefacts we see from other projector brands.

Theres already a grey version of the sentence in there. It covers the RGB primary and secondary colours all in the same test.

Just because your projector fails it, does not mean we should retire it lol.

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post #3 of 55 Old 09-11-2018, 05:54 PM
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Also when you share an image can you host it on something like Imgur. The forum is scaling those images down to zilch.

Can you take a photo in colour of how your projector handles the 720 in 1080p window ?

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post #4 of 55 Old 09-11-2018, 06:23 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Javs View Post
You missed the point of the test.

Why was it a mess?

You need to view that quick brown fox image in perfect 4:4:4 chroma.

Black and white is only testing a small aspect of the performance. That will mask many of the artefacts we see from other projector brands.

Theres already a grey version of the sentence in there. It covers the RGB primary and secondary colours all in the same test.

Just because your projector fails it, does not mean we should retire it lol.
The input is 4:4:4.

The crispness of the text color vs B&W in the 720p in a 1080p window image, specially the Red text on a Blue background and the Blue text on a Red background, is telling, zero fuzziness.

Even displaying sans e-shift, those two lines are messy, convergence issues perhaps. I doubt any 3 chip projector will display those images perfectly. However my Sharp single chip DLP displays those images perfectly.

The image is a good sales tool, but it creates unrealistic expectations from 3 chippers.

Use the Dropbox images!

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post #5 of 55 Old 09-11-2018, 06:51 PM
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Originally Posted by Highjinx View Post
The input is 4:4:4.

The crispness of the text color vs B&W in the 720p in a 1080p window image, specially the Red text on a Blue background and the Blue text on a Red background, is telling, zero fuzziness.

Even displaying sans e-shift, those two lines are messy, convergence issues perhaps. I doubt any 3 chip projector will display those images perfectly. However my Sharp single chip DLP displays those images perfectly.

The image is a good sales tool, but it creates unrealistic expectations from 3 chippers.

Use the Dropbox images!
Can you please share a comparative shot of both your colour and B&W versions of that pattern?

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post #6 of 55 Old 09-11-2018, 06:53 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Javs View Post
Can you please share a comparative shot of both your colour and B&W versions of that pattern?
Will do, as soon as I can!

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post #7 of 55 Old 09-11-2018, 07:08 PM
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Originally Posted by Highjinx View Post
Will do, as soon as I can!
Does your Quick Brown Fox pattern look like this in colour? I took this just now in 1080p eshift off.

Focus on the middle of these frames, I didnt bother with a tripod for this, and I used my 50mm lens which has barrel distortion. Right click, view the pics big!

Yes, this is indeed my 9500. Its damned sharp for hand-held. That green text is insanely crispy in real life.








Any chance you are using a Marantz or Denon receiver?

And are you using Video conversion in the Video Output menu?

IE Are you seeing your Denon and Marantz volume OSD overlaid on top of video?

Because that ruins 4:4:4 in 1080p.

Let me show you.





I forgot to take a shot of your B&W image, but IMO it will be identical its actually not possible for this text to be any sharper

IMO, the text is a VERY valid way of testing multiple aspects of the projector and its setup. You will see how well every panel is aligned, you have two shaded of grey text, you also have the requirement for 4:4:4 colour, which will show you if your signal path is degraded, which a matter of fact, in 1080p mine is! I had forgotten about that Marantz bug, but the bug does not seem to be present with a UHD input resolution.

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post #8 of 55 Old 09-11-2018, 07:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Highjinx View Post
I thought I'd investigate further, so I created a different pattern, yellow on black with simple horizontal, vertical and diagonal lines, upon projecting this on the screen, I noticed that some of the vertical yellow lines were now white, in certain areas. I put this down to mis-convergence.
I did look at this pattern too btw, didn't photograph it, but every line was yellow and clearly rendered in 1080p.

In UHD they were all solid yellow blocks as expected.

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post #9 of 55 Old 09-11-2018, 08:09 PM - Thread Starter
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The 3x2 1280x720 looks bad for me.

The other(1280x720 in a 1080 window) appear fine: 1080p or e-shift (pardon the camera shakes)

https://www.dropbox.com/sh/at5zwj7ky...Mv3OYD_Ha?dl=0

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post #10 of 55 Old 09-11-2018, 08:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Highjinx View Post
The 3x2 1280x720 looks bad for me.

The other(1280x720 in a 1080 window) appear fine: 1080p or e-shift (pardon the camera shakes)

https://www.dropbox.com/sh/at5zwj7ky...Mv3OYD_Ha?dl=0
What is the 3x2?

Actually the '1080' QBF pattern I shared the other day was a mistake, it was 3200x1800 or something. So the 720p in a 1080p window remains the correct way to look at the QBF pattern
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post #11 of 55 Old 09-11-2018, 08:35 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Javs View Post
What is the 3x2?

Actually the '1080' QBF pattern I shared the other day was a mistake, it was 3200x1800 or something. So the 720p in a 1080p window remains the correct way to look at the QBF pattern
1280 x 720 3 images across 2 down.

I think your pedantic nature is rubbing off on a few of us!

I think some of my issues are caused by misconvergence.

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post #12 of 55 Old 09-11-2018, 08:56 PM
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Originally Posted by Highjinx View Post
1280 x 720 3 images across 2 down.

I think your pedantic nature is rubbing off on a few of us!

I think some of my issues are caused by misconvergence.
Also, turn off enhance.

Try clear black low, enhance zero.

5 is pushing it imo.

I don't see anything wrong with either of your colour images.

I certainly am not of the opinion that the QBF test is flawed because your projector is not optimally displaying it. That's the point of the test!

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post #13 of 55 Old 09-11-2018, 09:26 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Javs View Post
Also, turn off enhance.

Try clear black low, enhance zero.

5 is pushing it imo.

I don't see anything wrong with either of your colour images.

I certainly am not of the opinion that the QBF test is flawed because your projector is not optimally displaying it. That's the point of the test!
I don't have Clear black enabled. Will play around with enhance.

Perfect convergence such as a single chip DLP would display that test image perfectly. Misconvergence would be amplified when using e-shift, screwing the result of that pattern up even more. It's a catch 22.

One would require perfect convergence of all 3 panels to get the best out of that image, e-shift or not. Your correct, one can use that image, but the end result in a 3 chipper, I think is a combination of a couple of factors. To what degree is mis-convergence a negative issue, to what extent is pixel shifting a negative issue, together the issue is compounded.

I'd like to see this image displayed by a single chip e-shifting shifting DLP.

Thanks for your help!

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post #14 of 55 Old 09-12-2018, 05:20 AM
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I’m not a big audio/visual guy but I do thoroughly enjoy my theater. Just level setting the fact that I’m not anywhere near an expert in these matters.

Often when I read threads like this I’m reminded of my other hobby which I’m quite a bit more vested in and where similar discussions often take place albeit in the context of telescopes and chromatic aberration (CA) of the lenses.

It strikes me that many projectors are accused of having poor image re-reduction performance (e.g. this thread) and I often wonder if this is a function of things like the eShift technology or whether it’s more simple and entirely related to the glass projecting the image?

In astrophotography it’s long been known the separate RGB components of light are very difficult to get to converge at a single point which often causes bloating in the “blue” data sets (most high end cameras are monochrome) when stacking the individual channnels to create color images. Naturally some telescopes are better than others when it comes to CA correction with the very best performers having extremely high price tags as a result of the exotic glass required in their construction.

I can’t help but wonder if the underlying “softness” described in this thread is simply the result of glass with poor CA characteristics?
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post #15 of 55 Old 09-12-2018, 02:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Javs View Post
Also, turn off enhance.

Try clear black low, enhance zero.
Is this for a test or for regular content viewing? Clear Black OFF and Enhance 3-5 are recommended by others - looking to understand why.
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post #16 of 55 Old 09-12-2018, 03:07 PM
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Is this for a test or for regular content viewing? Clear Black OFF and Enhance 3-5 are recommended by others - looking to understand why.
Enhance is very destructive, very quickly IMO.

I use Clear Black on Low and enhance off permanently. You could use Enhance 1 if you wished I guess.

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post #17 of 55 Old 09-12-2018, 03:08 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by NCpowerlifter View Post
I’m not a big audio/visual guy but I do thoroughly enjoy my theater. Just level setting the fact that I’m not anywhere near an expert in these matters.

Often when I read threads like this I’m reminded of my other hobby which I’m quite a bit more vested in and where similar discussions often take place albeit in the context of telescopes and chromatic aberration (CA) of the lenses.

It strikes me that many projectors are accused of having poor image re-reduction performance (e.g. this thread) and I often wonder if this is a function of things like the eShift technology or whether it’s more simple and entirely related to the glass projecting the image?

In astrophotography it’s long been known the separate RGB components of light are very difficult to get to converge at a single point which often causes bloating in the “blue” data sets (most high end cameras are monochrome) when stacking the individual channnels to create color images. Naturally some telescopes are better than others when it comes to CA correction with the very best performers having extremely high price tags as a result of the exotic glass required in their construction.

I can’t help but wonder if the underlying “softness” described in this thread is simply the result of glass with poor CA characteristics?
It would be a contributing factor no doubt.

If I recall correctly Craig Peer saying that when he saw the JVC LX-UH1 DLP(single chip, quad shift DLP) it reproduced the test pattern pixel perfect. He was surprised by the result. This is perhaps indicative that 3 chip convergence or lack of perfect convergence plays a major role of the distortion of the displayed test pattern. Not so much the 'E-Shift' process.

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post #18 of 55 Old 09-12-2018, 03:43 PM
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Originally Posted by Highjinx View Post
It would be a contributing factor no doubt.

If I recall correctly Craig Peer saying that when he saw the JVC LX-UH1 DLP(single chip, quad shift DLP) it reproduced the test pattern pixel perfect. He was surprised by the result. This is perhaps indicative that 3 chip convergence or lack of perfect convergence plays a major role of the distortion of the displayed test pattern. Not so much the 'E-Shift' process.
Of course it does.

There in lies one of the major reasons for doing the test. Its for testing sample quality. That covers many aspects.

You have RGB colours in there, you can see each individual panel, then you have all the secondary colours too so you can see how each panel then blends together individually.. Want to test a lens? Look at the RGB colours, want to test convergence? Look at the grey/white, Cyan, Magenta or Yellow colours



I think the thread title should be changed frankly. rename to:

The Quick Brown Fox for Testing Projectors.

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post #19 of 55 Old 09-12-2018, 04:57 PM - Thread Starter
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Maybe!

This test pattern appears to have been developed by RTINGS, for flat panel testing?:

https://www.rtings.com/tv/learn/chroma-subsampling

IMO When using this test pattern, 3 chip projector owners should not be too concerned, when pixel peeping, that their projectors cannot reproduce this pattern perfectly.
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post #20 of 55 Old 09-12-2018, 06:30 PM
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Originally Posted by Highjinx View Post
Maybe!

This test pattern appears to have been developed by RTINGS, for flat panel testing?:

https://www.rtings.com/tv/learn/chroma-subsampling

IMO When using this test pattern, 3 chip projector owners should not be too concerned, when pixel peeping, that their projectors cannot reproduce this pattern perfectly.
That's right it's for testing chroma originally.

Again, I think you are lowering the bar.... If people can't reproduce this test pixel for pixel, then it highlights an issue with either the product sample or the product they own.

You cannot discriminate a test based on display technology it is designed for. I don't think flat panel has any relevance at all of this test being worthy or not for projectors.

My projector passes this test in its native resolution with absolutely flying colours. Literally.

For eg, this test tells me FAR more about the display capability than any single pixel line pattern can. The new JVCs appear to render this test better than any of the 4k Sony's I've seen doing it. That tells you something.

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post #21 of 55 Old 09-12-2018, 06:52 PM - Thread Starter
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I'm happy with my projector too, mostly. But it's going in for evaluation on Monday. Not happy with the RHS 1/4 screen convergence.

1280x720 in a 1080p window:

https://www.dropbox.com/home/E-Shift...w=IMG_905A.JPG

E-shfted Version:

https://www.dropbox.com/home/E-Shift...=IMG_0905B.JPG

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post #22 of 55 Old 09-12-2018, 07:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Highjinx View Post
I'm happy with my projector too, mostly. But it's going in for evaluation on Monday. Not happy with the RHS 1/4 screen convergence.

1280x720 in a 1080p window:

https://www.dropbox.com/home/E-Shift...w=IMG_905A.JPG

E-shfted Version:

https://www.dropbox.com/home/E-Shift...=IMG_0905B.JPG
Oh really, sending to a service centre?

Did you call JVC about it? Speak to Peter?

Thats the same convergence issues I had on my unit. RHS 1/4 screen. if shelf mounted that is.


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post #23 of 55 Old 09-12-2018, 08:02 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Javs View Post
Oh really, sending to a service centre?

Did you call JVC about it? Speak to Peter?

Thats the same convergence issues I had on my unit. RHS 1/4 screen. if shelf mounted that is.

Yep, same issue! Shelf mounted as well.

Spoke to JVC, not Peter though. Gave me a list of authorised service centres here to take the unit down to.
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post #24 of 55 Old 09-12-2018, 08:33 PM
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Yep, same issue! Shelf mounted as well.

Spoke to JVC, not Peter though. Gave me a list of authorised service centres here to take the unit down to.
Good luck with it. Let me know if you need me to do anything.
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post #25 of 55 Old 09-12-2018, 09:40 PM - Thread Starter
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Good luck with it. Let me know if you need me to do anything.
Thanks Javs, hope this convergence error is not a common problem with these units!

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post #26 of 55 Old 09-13-2018, 12:37 AM
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Thanks Javs, hope this convergence error is not a common problem with these units!
These are from my X9900 sample... Check out the RED panel..

Convergence is NOT a strong point!
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post #27 of 55 Old 09-13-2018, 12:43 AM - Thread Starter
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These are from my X9900 sample... Check out the RED panel..

Convergence is NOT a strong point!
Thanks Woofer, that is not a good sign!

Let's see what the service folks say. Perhaps a new light engine?

May the success of a Nation be judged not by its collective wealth nor by its power, but by the contentment of its people.
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post #28 of 55 Old 09-13-2018, 09:33 AM
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Originally Posted by Highjinx View Post
Yep, same issue! Shelf mounted as well.

Spoke to JVC, not Peter though. Gave me a list of authorised service centres here to take the unit down to.
I have the same issue, shelf mounted, right hand side red panel misconvergence. Weird. My red panel is shifted to right, though, as I recall. I have not loaded a test pattern to check it specifically because I know I won't be able to unsee it once I have and I did not think there was any recourse. My lens is quite good and I don't have other major issues.

What can a service center do? Can they realign the panel, or is it glued in place and they have to replace them all?
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post #29 of 55 Old 09-13-2018, 09:38 AM
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Enhance is very destructive, very quickly IMO.

I use Clear Black on Low and enhance off permanently. You could use Enhance 1 if you wished I guess.
I guess my expectations have been severely skewed by watching with Enhance at 4 for 200 hours. When I turned it off everything looked blurry. And my native focus is very good. The image is very soft by comparison. I take it enhance adds noise like "sharpness."

How does Clear Black enhance contrast? How would I notice it working?
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post #30 of 55 Old 09-13-2018, 11:55 AM
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Anyone have a link to download the 1080P version of this “quick brown fox” test image? I can’t find it.
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