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post #331 of 957 Old 03-26-2019, 02:44 AM
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Originally Posted by Dave Harper View Post
Thanks for the good and quick summary! Can you try the DICOM gamma with HDR material and let me know what you think? I’m pretty sure this is the old 2.8 gamma from the LK970 and if it is then it’s more conducive to my settings for HDR.
Sure thing Dave. I'm going to plug in your 970 setting tonight or tomorrow and take it from there. I'm sure Javs will have some tweaks too, he has same screen as myself as does woofer so glad that part is pretty uniform.
I can't get over the clarity it's just sublime.
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post #332 of 957 Old 03-26-2019, 03:04 AM
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Originally Posted by oztheatre View Post
Sure thing Dave. I'm going to plug in your 970 setting tonight or tomorrow and take it from there. I'm sure Javs will have some tweaks too, he has same screen as myself as does woofer so glad that part is pretty uniform.
I can't get over the clarity it's just sublime.
Photos look great!!!! Are you going to be selling these in Aus? If so do you mind sending the price via PM?
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post #333 of 957 Old 03-26-2019, 03:41 AM
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Originally Posted by oztheatre View Post
Sure thing Dave. I'm going to plug in your 970 setting tonight or tomorrow and take it from there. I'm sure Javs will have some tweaks too, he has same screen as myself as does woofer so glad that part is pretty uniform.
I can't get over the clarity it's just sublime.
Nice!

That will be also my first disc next to „Pacific Rim“ to evaluate the Lk990.
Have fun with your new toy!

Most exited also to try Avatar in 3D hoping the light output will be sufficent, after all...
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post #334 of 957 Old 03-26-2019, 03:56 AM
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Originally Posted by MCU2 View Post
Nice!

That will be also my first disc next to „Pacific Rim“ to evaluate the Lk990.
Have fun with your new toy!

Most exited also to try Avatar in 3D hoping the light output will be sufficent, after all...
Pacific Rim has a ton of really dark content. I can't imagine that being a good fit for this projector. The beginning of that movie is interstellar level of blacks.
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post #335 of 957 Old 03-26-2019, 06:14 AM
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Originally Posted by Raul GS View Post
True, but that is not what is being discussed. It is DLP in the context of a great lens, HDR and excellent dynamic range in the reproduced image. I find it interesting how often proponents of non-DLP technology find it necessary to participate in DLP projector threads to state their non-DLP projectors have better on/off contrast ratio, but I'm pretty sure they never go into the non-DLP threads and lament how that technology underperforms in relation to sharpness and ANSI contrast. I also find comments casually dismissing the LK970 projector by recommending them only to people who watch sports and like to have lights on in their viewing area an interesting approach to demean a product.

I am a big fan of Sci-Fi movies, and it is generally understood that these types of films have a lot of dark content, so yes the DLP would underperform as compared to non-DLP tech. However, with very few exceptions, the content of most films, including Sci-Fi is not mostly dark lighting. In fact the grand majority of the content of the grand majority of films is either well lit or mixed dark and lit content (mixed APL?), something where high ANSI has more of an effect. I have yet to read from the non-DLP proponents suggest that considering the grand majority of the content the LK970 equals or surpasses the non-DLP projectors, it is reasonable to consider the LK970 as the best choice for many viewers. Instead, the argument is made that because the non-DLP is superior in less than 5 percent of content (I would not be surprised if that estimate is not too high, with some obvious exceptions), it is a far superior choice to the LK970, which is likely the equal or superior projector for 95 percent of the content. The fetishsisation of poorly lit scenes can sometimes obscure the value of other elements of image reproduction

Considering the above and adding the cost differential to the equation, it would be reasonable to expect unbiased non-DLP proponents to be posting all over the non-DLP threads what an incredible bargain the LK970 is. Instead, the reader is told it is OK for some purchasers to like the LK970 if said purchasers are going to be using the projector for sports and in environments polluted by background lighting (thankfully there is no expectation to kiss anyone's ring).


Considering the discussed dynamics, it is hardly surprising questions are sometimes raised about the underlying motives in the comments of some posters.
I was not talking about the cheap DLP's. You think Barco, Christie and DPI put cheap lenses on their projectors that cost between 30k and 500k. As for brightness, one had 20,000 lumens at CEDIA last year. We have had one reviewer that has compared side by side. Soon we will have a few other reviewers comparing either the 990 or the 970 and 9060. Let's see what they have to say.

Added
As for me not liking DLP, I have owned several and still own two DLP projectors.
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post #336 of 957 Old 03-26-2019, 09:18 AM
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Originally Posted by markmon1 View Post
Where are you getting this 5% stuff? Woofer measured contrast from 0% APL to 50% APL for the RS4500 and the LK970. The LK970 was pretty steady around 1000:1 from 0 to 50% where the RS4500 had a measurable graph. The LK970 got superior to the RS4500 around 20%. I estimated the crossover to be around 15% APL.

But I have no idea where you get 5%. If I remember right, about 50% of content in movies are under 10% APL.
He was not talking about the projectors. He was referring to the amount of very dark scenes is movies vs the amount of dark and mixed lighting scenes.
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Originally Posted by oztheatre View Post
Sure thing Dave. I'm going to plug in your 970 setting tonight or tomorrow and take it from there. I'm sure Javs will have some tweaks too, he has same screen as myself as does woofer so glad that part is pretty uniform.

I can't get over the clarity it's just sublime.

Thanks. Just know that my settings for the LK970 may not transfer over.
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post #338 of 957 Old 03-26-2019, 09:52 AM
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Originally Posted by DIYHack View Post
He was not talking about the projectors. He was referring to the amount of very dark scenes is movies vs the amount of dark and mixed lighting scenes.
That is the point. He was talking like it is only 5% of the scenes in movies, when it is more like 50%. Huge difference. So in about 50% of the scenes, the DLP looks better and 50% of the scenes, the high contrast projector looks better. But the kicker is, the high contrast projector never looks bad in any of the scenes, whereas the DLP does.
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post #339 of 957 Old 03-26-2019, 10:24 AM
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Originally Posted by oztheatre View Post
I took delivery of my new 990 today. This thing is off the wall!

Clarity like you've never seen!

That's good to hear.
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post #340 of 957 Old 03-26-2019, 10:48 AM
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As for me not liking DLP, I have owned several and still own two DLP projectors.
You have the Vivitek H9090 and the JVC LX-UH1B, right? I had the H9090. How is that JVC? I'm thinking the LK970 will have better dynamic contrast than the JVC LX-UH1B but not as good as the H9090.
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post #341 of 957 Old 03-26-2019, 10:55 AM
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Originally Posted by Aztar35 View Post
You have the Vivitek H9090 and the JVC LX-UH1B, right? I had the H9090. How is that JVC? I'm thinking the LK970 will have better dynamic contrast than the JVC LX-UH1B but not as good as the H9090.
I have had both of those in my theater, but do not have them now. Have an older Marantz and Planar.
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post #342 of 957 Old 03-26-2019, 11:06 AM
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I have had both of those in my theater, but do not have them now. Have an older Marantz and Planar.
I have the Runco LS-5 still. I'm just curious how that that XPR JVC compared with the Planar in terms of sharpness? Contrast?
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post #343 of 957 Old 03-26-2019, 11:18 AM
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Originally Posted by Raul GS View Post
True, but that is not what is being discussed. It is DLP in the context of a great lens, HDR and excellent dynamic range in the reproduced image. I find it interesting how often proponents of non-DLP technology find it necessary to participate in DLP projector threads to state their non-DLP projectors have better on/off contrast ratio, but I'm pretty sure they never go into the non-DLP threads and lament how that technology underperforms in relation to sharpness and ANSI contrast. I also find comments casually dismissing the LK970 projector by recommending them only to people who watch sports and like to have lights on in their viewing area an interesting approach to demean a product.

I am a big fan of Sci-Fi movies, and it is generally understood that these types of films have a lot of dark content, so yes the DLP would underperform as compared to non-DLP tech. However, with very few exceptions, the content of most films, including Sci-Fi is not mostly dark lighting. In fact the grand majority of the content of the grand majority of films is either well lit or mixed dark and lit content (mixed APL?), something where high ANSI has more of an effect. I have yet to read from the non-DLP proponents suggest that considering the grand majority of the content the LK970 equals or surpasses the non-DLP projectors, it is reasonable to consider the LK970 as the best choice for many viewers. Instead, the argument is made that because the non-DLP is superior in less than 5 percent of content (I would not be surprised if that estimate is not too high, with some obvious exceptions), it is a far superior choice to the LK970, which is likely the equal or superior projector for 95 percent of the content. The fetishsisation of poorly lit scenes can sometimes obscure the value of other elements of image reproduction

Considering the above and adding the cost differential to the equation, it would be reasonable to expect unbiased non-DLP proponents to be posting all over the non-DLP threads what an incredible bargain the LK970 is. Instead, the reader is told it is OK for some purchasers to like the LK970 if said purchasers are going to be using the projector for sports and in environments polluted by background lighting (thankfully there is no expectation to kiss anyone's ring).

Considering the discussed dynamics, it is hardly surprising questions are sometimes raised about the underlying motives in the comments of some posters.
U summed up exactly what i m experiencing with my projectors, the ammount of times i say wow when watching on my Lk970 is far more then when i m watching my rs440, 4k HDR with Dave settings and some calibrations on top of that is just a jaw dropping experience, u just cant take ur eyes of the screen, believe me its only not that good in the extreemly lowest APL scenes like markmoon interstellar scene, otherwise it does surprisingly good with low APL scenes, i watched Bumblebee yesterday and it was stunning.
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post #344 of 957 Old 03-26-2019, 01:43 PM
 
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That is the point. He was talking like it is only 5% of the scenes in movies, when it is more like 50%. Huge difference. So in about 50% of the scenes, the DLP looks better and 50% of the scenes, the high contrast projector looks better. But the kicker is, the high contrast projector never looks bad in any of the scenes, whereas the DLP does.

When compared to the LK970, especially with HDR, I personally think it does look bad in comparison in those scenes and many others until you get WAY down low, as tnaik4 just posted.
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post #345 of 957 Old 03-26-2019, 01:55 PM
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Originally Posted by Aztar35 View Post
I have the Runco LS-5 still. I'm just curious how that that XPR JVC compared with the Planar in terms of sharpness? Contrast?
Never did do a side by side, the older DLP's have better contrast, but they did not have dynamic iris. Sharpness has never been an issue with any DLP with decent lens.
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post #346 of 957 Old 03-26-2019, 03:16 PM
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He was not talking about the projectors. He was referring to the amount of very dark scenes is movies vs the amount of dark and mixed lighting scenes.
So was I.

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post #347 of 957 Old 03-26-2019, 03:47 PM
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Never did do a side by side, the older DLP's have better contrast, but they did not have dynamic iris. Sharpness has never been an issue with any DLP with decent lens.
Talking about older DLPs?
Since I am waiting for my LK990 i did some warm up and played with madvr settings on my BenQ W1070 in ISF Night mode.
What should I say, I think it is the best picture I ever squeezed out of it.
The details with Drax`s jacket are the first time visible without destroying the hole picture!
The HDR to SDR conversation of Planet Earth II looks also very nice and the intented sepia look of "King Kong" shines bright.

As soons as the LK990 arrives I will check these scenes.
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post #348 of 957 Old 03-26-2019, 03:50 PM
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I took delivery of my new 990 today. This thing is off the wall!

Clarity like you've never seen! Like a giant OLED screen. Pixels far left, far right, top, bottom.. I counted them all too..

I've barely touched any settings at this early stage. Cinema mode. pulled the colour down, used a 2.6 gamma, that's it. Every other setting is out of the box.

Camera - galaxy S6 phone, about 4 or 5 years old from memory. no tripod, no calibration. The sky in the first image is not that saturated on screen, it's my crappy phone camera. So these images are not for evaluation like Woofer and Javs do, just more of a 'look at this' projector.

130" 16:9 screen (165" scope screen)

Anyone saying they dislike the image this thing throws is either blind or has some other problem. Seriously.

The lens shift is rock solid and the unit is very easy to focus and zoom to the right size. Changing for scope takes about 30 seconds, but that will get quicker. dials are above head height so a bit of stretch.

Can't wait to see where this can be taken with calibration. incredible projector.
Wow, those attached pics look like a Best Buy TV display. In my light controlled theater that would blind me! There was a time when I would be all in for that but I think I understand now where differing tastes come in. Over time I have come to prefer what I can only describe as a "cinematic" look as do most people who are movie aficionados. It is hard to quantify but that look is actually a less "sharp" and more "celluloid" in nature. Now if watching TV, travel shows, sports, then the former is more suitable at least for me. Ideally I would prefer two projectors for the different use cases if practical. But I suffer from RBE and single chip DLP has never been an option for me but I have seen several over the years, including the legendary Mitsubishis, and sharpness has always been their strength.
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U summed up exactly what i m experiencing with my projectors, the ammount of times i say wow when watching on my Lk970 is far more then when i m watching my rs440, 4k HDR with Dave settings and some calibrations on top of that is just a jaw dropping experience, u just cant take ur eyes of the screen, believe me its only not that good in the extreemly lowest APL scenes like markmoon interstellar scene, otherwise it does surprisingly good with low APL scenes, i watched Bumblebee yesterday and it was stunning.
Those pictures really look good.

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post #350 of 957 Old 03-26-2019, 04:16 PM
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That is the point. He was talking like it is only 5% of the scenes in movies, when it is more like 50%. Huge difference. So in about 50% of the scenes, the DLP looks better and 50% of the scenes, the high contrast projector looks better. But the kicker is, the high contrast projector never looks bad in any of the scenes, whereas the DLP does.
High contrast projectors don't look too bad, depending on the make and model. It's just that single chip machines like the one being discussed here look better in most scenes. I can certainly live without the blackest of black space scenes as everything else it gives me is more than worth the trade off.

Single chip 970/990;
  • No convergence problems.
  • No chromatic aberrations due to superior optics.
  • No warm up time.
  • No focus drift.
  • Higher ansi contrast.
  • Higher brightness.
  • Much sharper/clearer.
  • Better motion.
  • Better 3D.
  • They actually turn on and work.

Three chip machines;
  • Better native contrast.
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post #351 of 957 Old 03-26-2019, 04:24 PM
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Wow, those attached pics look like a Best Buy TV display. In my light controlled theater that would blind me! There was a time when I would be all in for that but I think I understand now where differing tastes come in. Over time I have come to prefer what I can only describe as a "cinematic" look as do most people who are movie aficionados. It is hard to quantify but that look is actually a less "sharp" and more "celluloid" in nature. Now if watching TV, travel shows, sports, then the former is more suitable at least for me. Ideally I would prefer two projectors for the different use cases if practical. But I suffer from RBE and single chip DLP has never been an option for me but I have seen several over the years, including the legendary Mitsubishis, and sharpness has always been their strength.
Yes some people prefer a more tamed image, but keep in mind the BenQ can be wound down to do just that too. I myself prefer a huge TV looking image and find the cinema's 12-16fl too dim to have any real wow effect.
Something around 25-30fl has a more jaw dropping effect, for me anyway.
I've never understood why footage like TV, travel shows, sports must be watched differently to movies. It makes no sense to me. These projectors have enough options in them anyway if you need two different settings. No need for 2 projectors.

Remember it's about the experience, not what someone says is right or wrong.
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post #352 of 957 Old 03-26-2019, 04:24 PM
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Originally Posted by MCU2 View Post
Talking about older DLPs?
Since I am waiting for my LK990 i did some warm up and played with madvr settings on my BenQ W1070 in ISF Night mode.
What should I say, I think it is the best picture I ever squeezed out of it.
The details with Drax`s jacket are the first time visible without destroying the hole picture!
The HDR to SDR conversation of Planet Erath II looks also very nice and the intented sepia look of "King Kong" shines bright.

As soons as the LK970 arrives I will check these scenes.
I was talking about the higher end older DLP's like the Marantz VP-15S1.
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post #353 of 957 Old 03-26-2019, 04:42 PM
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I was talking about the higher end older DLP's like the Marantz VP-15S1.
Ah I see.

2007 - I owned the BenQ W5000 (changed from the Sony VPL VW10HT) and then the BenQ W1070.
The BenQ W5000 had the same specs as the Marantz 0,95" DC2 Chip and 1000 Lumen but was much cheaper.

Maybe slightly bettter black leves as the 1070, but the brightness was not compareable to the 1070.

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post #354 of 957 Old 03-26-2019, 04:44 PM
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Talking about older DLPs?
Since I am waiting for my LK990 i did some warm up and played with madvr settings on my BenQ W1070 in ISF Night mode.
What should I say, I think it is the best picture I ever squeezed out of it.
The details with Drax`s jacket are the first time visible without destroying the hole picture!
The HDR to SDR conversation of Planet Erath II looks also very nice and the intented sepia look of "King Kong" shines bright.

As soons as the LK970 arrives I will check these scenes.
What does a W1070, go for? Those pics look great!

Shows that good tone mapping is crucial to making the most out of any projector and that even lower end models can be improved drastically with such.

Pics like your W1070 ones (admittedly with MadVR help) make almost all other projectors seem massively over priced in all honesty.

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Originally Posted by Archibald1 View Post
What does a W1070, go for? Those pics look great!

Shows that good tone mapping is crucial to making the most out of any projector and that even lower end models can be improved drastically with such.

Pics like your W1070 ones (admittedly with MadVR help) make almost all other projectors seem massively over priced in all honesty.
Thanks!
Yes - MadVR Help is the key, because you can tweak the picture more precisely.

And the ISF Mode which has very good color accuracy out of the box!



Hopefully I can take the same photos with the LK990 in a few weeks and tell that there is a visible advantage...
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post #356 of 957 Old 03-26-2019, 05:21 PM
 
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Originally Posted by gravi View Post
Wow, those attached pics look like a Best Buy TV display. In my light controlled theater that would blind me! There was a time when I would be all in for that but I think I understand now where differing tastes come in. Over time I have come to prefer what I can only describe as a "cinematic" look as do most people who are movie aficionados. It is hard to quantify but that look is actually a less "sharp" and more "celluloid" in nature. Now if watching TV, travel shows, sports, then the former is more suitable at least for me. Ideally I would prefer two projectors for the different use cases if practical. But I suffer from RBE and single chip DLP has never been an option for me but I have seen several over the years, including the legendary Mitsubishis, and sharpness has always been their strength.
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Originally Posted by oztheatre View Post
Yes some people prefer a more tamed image, but keep in mind the BenQ can be wound down to do just that too. I myself prefer a huge TV looking image and find the cinema's 12-16fl too dim to have any real wow effect.

Something around 25-30fl has a more jaw dropping effect, for me anyway.

I've never understood why footage like TV, travel shows, sports must be watched differently to movies. It makes no sense to me. These projectors have enough options in them anyway if you need two different settings. No need for 2 projectors.



Remember it's about the experience, not what someone says is right or wrong.

I was going to reply with pretty much the same thing. Thanks oz!

Plus you have to take into consideration HDR, which really benefits from the available extra brightness.


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Originally Posted by Mike Garrett View Post
I was talking about the higher end older DLP's like the Marantz VP-15S1.

FYI, I had a VP-15S1 for awhile and the LK970 is totally in another league than that.
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post #357 of 957 Old 03-26-2019, 05:39 PM
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Originally Posted by Dave Harper View Post
I was going to reply with pretty much the same thing. Thanks oz!

Plus you have to take into consideration HDR, which really benefits from the available extra brightness.





FYI, I had a VP-15S1 for awhile and the LK970 is totally in another league than that.
Whats the major differences between a BENQ LK970 vs the LK990?
I guess if i was to purchase the LK970, what I'm I missing out on besides the extra lumens as my fully light controlled HT room has only 120" screen. Wonder if getting a grey screen could help boost the black levels since we have lots of lumens to play with!
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post #358 of 957 Old 03-26-2019, 06:27 PM
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Originally Posted by oztheatre View Post
Yes some people prefer a more tamed image, but keep in mind the BenQ can be wound down to do just that too. I myself prefer a huge TV looking image and find the cinema's 12-16fl too dim to have any real wow effect.
Something around 25-30fl has a more jaw dropping effect, for me anyway.
I've never understood why footage like TV, travel shows, sports must be watched differently to movies. It makes no sense to me. These projectors have enough options in them anyway if you need two different settings. No need for 2 projectors.

Remember it's about the experience, not what someone says is right or wrong.
I get that you can tame the brightness, I was referring to the "film like" look that LCD/LCoS chips produce. The Sonys are particularly good at that. Regardless, I would say that if a casual projector buyer (i.e. not a discerning cinephile like people on these forums) were to look at those images they would pick that over even a $50K "Home Theater" projector, all the time, no doubt about it. Bright, razor sharp images win all the time, there is a reason retail stores turn on the brightness on TVs all the way up. I can think of so many people I know (including some rich people like Doctors) that built home theaters and have no interest in movies, just because they want one in their house. I think these DLP companies are missing out on so much potential sales. They need to buy space in specialty HT stores and I can guarantee the 90 percent who shop there will pick the DLP (assuming RBE is a non factor). It is just like speakers - most casual folks prefer the horn loaded ones like Klipsch, not a neutral sounding, low-sensitivity brand, because they are loud.
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post #359 of 957 Old 03-26-2019, 07:12 PM
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Originally Posted by gravi View Post
I get that you can tame the brightness, I was referring to the "film like" look that LCD/LCoS chips produce. The Sonys are particularly good at that. Regardless, I would say that if a casual projector buyer (i.e. not a discerning cinephile like people on these forums) were to look at those images they would pick that over even a $50K "Home Theater" projector, all the time, no doubt about it. Bright, razor sharp images win all the time, there is a reason retail stores turn on the brightness on TVs all the way up. I can think of so many people I know (including some rich people like Doctors) that built home theaters and have no interest in movies, just because they want one in their house. I think these DLP companies are missing out on so much potential sales. They need to buy space in specialty HT stores and I can guarantee the 90 percent who shop there will pick the DLP (assuming RBE is a non factor). It is just like speakers - most casual folks prefer the horn loaded ones like Klipsch, not a neutral sounding, low-sensitivity brand, because they are loud.
Wow. Condescending, elitist and obnoxious. You hit the trifecta!
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post #360 of 957 Old 03-26-2019, 07:36 PM
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Wow. Condescending, elitist and obnoxious. You hit the trifecta!
Excuse me? I don't quite get that, honestly. Just stating that a major business opportunity is being missed. As I said, enthusiasts and cinephiles have distinct taste that is not necessarily good or bad, nothing condescending. Anyway, never meant to come across that way so my apologies if it did.

Also, like I said the pics are indeed dazzling, not just my taste for movies only, and like I said I wish I could have a system of two units - one for watching sports with friends (maybe with some ambient light), TV shows, etc. And another unit for night time movie watching. Best of both worlds but not very practical or affordable.

Last edited by gravi; 03-26-2019 at 07:50 PM.
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